# Cream Legbars and Autosexing Question



## WeeLittleChicken

So a while back I ordered some Cream Legbar eggs and hatched seven of them. I was delighted to see there was a CLEAR difference between one chick and the others. While six chicks had the chipmunk stripes of pullets only one was without - a solid white chick who I presumed to be a rooster because I was told Cream Legbars are autosexing in this way...

But here's the problem.... my "rooster" has grown quite a bit but still has no comb or wattles, and worse one of the chipmunk-striped pullets looks like a cockerel!

Are Cream Legbars only autosexing a certain percentage of the time?? I mean I got them for this feature and if it's not going to work....

Here's a photo. The "rooster" is still all white. You can see right next to "him" is the "pullet" who has grown rather manly!


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## Fiere

You've got it backward. The roosters are sexed by the barring, the hens don't have it. See those nice grey ones? Those are your hens. The barred one is your rooster. The male chicks have a dot on their heads, they are usually not as starkly chipmunked as the females but can be, again they are sexed because they are barred and that's where the dot comes from.

I have no clue what the white one is but it's not a pure Legbar. It is a Pullet though.


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## robin416

Fiere, glad you saw this. You were about the only one I could think of that could sort this out.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Oh, I know the barred one's a rooster.... I know about barring and all that but I meant on day one (wish I took a photo!) the chicks all looked the same except the white one. No one had any head spots.... So if they all looked the same why are they turning up different genders?! Or is this one of those "you got a bad batch try to get eggs from someone else" sort of things?


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## robin416

Genetics. Background genetics can put the lie to everything we understand about what a bird should look like if A is put with B. 

Silkies are not auto sexing for color. Yet, I had that exact thing happen with a line of whites I had. If any of the peeps hatched were gray at hatch, I knew those peeps were boys. Took me a couple of years to figure that out. But once I saw it I started banding them to make sure I was right when I saw it.


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## Fiere

They would've had head spots. Barred birds have head spots, so you wouldn't of had that cockerel come out of none had a spot. Hold on I find a pic of how ridiculously light the head spot can be, you likely missed it. Especially if you were told females are chipmunked and that's all you were looking for, because that's erroneous.


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## Fiere

Here's a mix of males and females from the Google-bot. At first glance, these chicks look identical, at second glance, you can see how some chicks have a more washed out appearance to their stripes and some have more defined stripes. At third glance, you'll notice the ones with the blurry stripes have creamy light spots on their heads (some are more obvious than others).


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## Fiere

Here's another, these are a bit more obvious:


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## WeeLittleChicken

Hmmm, so invest in a bright light and a pair of glasses you say... I just remembered why I didn't take photos. My camera was broken for two weeks and I couldn't. Annoying, that could have cleared this up. In any event thank you for the photos. I guess I will just have to make a note of this and look really close next time. 

None of this explains the white one so I looked it up. Apparently they are a thing in England where we imported these buggars from originally. I guess they pop up in GFF lines every once in a while. I don't think anyone is purposely breeding them as they are somewhat of an anomaly but interestingly also autosexable --- if you add a magnifying glass to the above list of tools! (Being a bit sarcastic there but it looks like a tough one staring at a white chick trying to find "a well defined head stripe," especially when you have nothing to compare it to!)


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## Fiere

That's cool, I've never heard of a white Legbar before. Sexing them would be a pain... How do you see barring on a white bird?

Yes, good glasses and a bright light for sure. Some will be obvious spots, some will be a light smudge, but they will be there. I'm not exactly sure why the genetics are the way they are but all barred birds will have a head spot as a chick, so you can compare the blurriness of the stripes all day and go blind but the head spot will only be on a cockerel.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Apparently they're not as snow white at hatch as I thought, they have vague markings, and the females will have, "A clearly defined head stripe."










All that being said I do have a somewhat unrelated stupid question. You might not have an answer to it either but I figured I'd ask anyway. If all barred breeds have that head spot why do we bother crossing them at all to make sex links?? I mean I thought a common sex link was using a Barred Rock and a Rhode Island Red... but if the barred rock already has head spots what's the point?? Or is this just a question of making it easier and taking advantage of hybrid vigor? (I have been doing a lot of reading on both auto sexing and sex links... seems like a good thing to be able to sell day old pullets knowing they're pullets.)


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## Fiere

I do have an answer, lol.
Barred hens have ONE copy of the barring gene, given to them by their father, while roosters have TWO, one from the father and one from the mother.
By pairing a barred hen with a solid rooster, the hen will give her one copy of the barring gene to the male chicks, but because she cannot give the copy to the hens, only the males are born barred, and therefore can be sexed at day olds.
This does not work with the second generation because the male can give his barring gene to the hens. 

All barred birds have a head spot. So male and female barred rock chicks will but only male sex link chicks will, as they're the ones with the barring.


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## Fiere

That's why barring is used so prevalently in making sex linked breeds. That big ol' dot on their head right out of the egg.

I use it myself. Here's a sex linked NN


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## WeeLittleChicken

Oh my! You hatched Martin the Martian! haha... that's something else. 

OK, so I think I got it. I was under the impression only the roosters in BR had head spots. Guess I was once again misinformed (grrr.) 

You'll probably hate me but I want to pick your brains more. I bought some Rose Comb Rhode Island Red eggs, coming in next week, so I could breed sex links in the spring. Initially I wanted to breed them to Rhode Island Whites but those are pretty much 100% impossible to find... and I gave up. So you're saying I could cross a Cream Legbar rooster and a RIR hen for sex links as well? What would they come out like? How do you tell those chicks apart? 

Also I found this - are these correct in any way shape or form? 

Cream Legbar Rooster X Welsummer Hen (sex linked EE) **the males with large headspot on their heads, the females will lack the headspot and will have a clearly defined chipmunk stirping on their head maybe with a faint headspot but the headstrip will be well defined.. 

Cream Legbar Rooster X Silver Dorking Hen will produce Autosexing and Sexlinked chicks both at the same time.... the males will have large headspot and a lighter silverish chick down. the females will lack headspot or have a very faint one and their chick color down will be darker.. 

PS I do realize crossing a Cream Legbar with a brown egg layer will end up with green egg layers (can I still call them EE's?)


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## Nm156

There is a good article on that other chicken web place titled sex-linked-information


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## WeeLittleChicken

That's where I got that information. I just want to double check!


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## Nm156

I don't see any of them combinations on the list of breeds able to produce sex links.


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## Fiere

A cream Legbar rooster and a RIR hen wouldn't make a sex link. To make a sex link using the barring gene, the HEN must be barred, the rooster must be solid. You want the hen to give her barring gene to her male offspring while the female offspring stay solid coloured. If you use a barred male he will give his barring gene to both sexes of his offspring.

The pairings you posted will make some males have barring, and some males not, and some females have barring and some females not. They won't be sex linked, at least by their head spot, as you are no longer using the barring gene to tell them apart.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Nm156: I didn't pluck those breeds out of the air, honestly. I got them from attempting to understand this article with which thy're all mentioned: http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/261208/sex-linked-information

Fiere: OK, I can work with that... That's certainly doable. I got the rose-comb Rhode Island Red eggs coming in the mail next week. Supposing I am successful hatching them they should be ready to make chicks by Spring, I think. Guess that depends if heritage RIR start laying as early as their hatchery counterparts, probably not. We'll see. I don't have anyone (aside from the RIR) who are solid and I do not have any barred hens, but again, I can work on that! Thanks a bunch. I appreciate it.


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## Fiere

You can do a white to red mix or a red to gold mix or something... I honestly never looked into it in depth as I don't breed anything of that nature. Barring is easy!


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## WeeLittleChicken

OK... one more stupid question and I promise I will leave your brain alone!  Is there a difference between cuckoo and barred and do they work the same?


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## Fiere

Yes. That's technically what trait is causing the barring in the Legbar roosters. They aren't truly barred they're cuckoo


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## WeeLittleChicken

Fascinating..... so you're saying if I can get cuckoo Dorkings or Cuckoo Marans (hens) I can cross them with a RIR (rooster) for sex links That'd be awesome... Hmmmmm. Decisions decisions.

Here's my little Legbar roo and the freak white pullet. They're turning out pretty little birds!


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## Fiere

Technically yes lol. 
Legbars are definitely funny looking little creatures!


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## WeeLittleChicken

They are..... was sort of hoping to cross them with something to get auto sexing or sex linked Easter Eggers (preferably Olive Eggers!) but I am not sure how that would be accomplished.


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## Fiere

The issue involved is that you have to cross a barred hen with a solid rooster to get sex linked offspring, and the offspring would be the exact opposite of what you'd want to hatch out to maintain a sex linked flock (as the hens would be solid and the males barred). Sex linked is a one shot first generation deal, and easily done. Autosexing is a bit more fickle.

I honestly don't know what would happen if you bred a hen from one of the legbars to another consistently autosexing breed... As Dorkings and welsummers are autosexing due to different genes than legbars. In theory a Rhodebar or something similar should produce the same results as they're using the same genes be autosexing as the Legbar.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Autosexing would be ideal but I am content to play around with sex links. I basically just want to produce guaranteed pullet chicks for local sales in the Spring. Have been having all sorts of fun today looking into it and I received my heritage RIR and Silver Penciled Rock eggs today as well which should start me on this journey. I was delighted to find you can cross Silver Penciled Rocks with an assortment of things (including a RIR rooster) to get sex links as well. I just got them because I liked them but hey I am not complaining!

I am trying to find out if you can cross Legbars with anything... there isn't any good information but there are a handful of accounts to say they might sometimes be able to pass on their autosexing (or at least sex linked) traits. Someone bred a rooster to a RIR hen and got chicks she claims were just as easily sexed at hatch although this doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me, who knows.

I think one of the greatest things I learned today is that you can cross a rapid feather growing rooster with a slow feather growth hen and still get feather sexing chicks. That means my extra Brabanter rooster could find themselves with RIR, Dorking, Rocks.... Those crosses would be _interesting_ to say the least! I might have to just try that and see if it works!


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## Fiere

I'll stick with my barred hens and solid roosters, so much easier!


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## Barredrockmom

https://poultrykeeper.com/poultry-breeding/autosexing-poultry/ I found this real close up that helped me understand what the heck autosexing was. Hope it helps.

Scroll down to see the cream legbar up close.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Oh that article is bare bones basics (and wrong as far as ducks are concerned, some breeds absolutely are autosexing.) It only goes through barring but there's at least three other color based ways to get autosexed chicks,not to mention sex links, and a few other non-color based ways as well... like working with the rapid featheirng gene. Though that's probably a nice place to start without jumping too much into the deep end. I have a feeling I will be posting a lot of pix of projects...


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## Barredrockmom

Now I'm really confused. Auto sexing? Is this a term used to help when you are looking at them? Sex Linking? I will have to google that. Thanks for the tip.


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## Fiere

Auto-sexing means that the chicks are able to be sexed at a glance as day olds. Sex-link is the gene that causes auto sexing. That being said, an auto-sexing breed will breed true however a sex-linked breed is only first generation sexable.


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## Barredrockmom

Thanks. Now I don't feel like such an idiot.


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## WeeLittleChicken

There's no such thing as a stupid question. Some of these genetics things will blow anyone's mind. I am still going to be trying out various crosses this winter for preparation of Spring sales. I will post photos and whatnot. Real curious to see if crossing Silver with Gold birds really produces such a huge difference in chicks.... but I will also be meddling with a few other combos, see what works best. 

Since I am on the topic... Does anyone breed heritage Barred Rocks or Cuckoo Marans? I am looking for eggs... seems logical to add barred to my sex-linking project....


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