# Worming ???



## tenn1207

I'm sure this has been discussed several times so I'm sorry for the reoccurring question . 

Should I be worming my hens on a regular basis as a preventative, or just when they get worms ??


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## robin416

It's better to worm regularly than wait for evidence to show up that your birds have worms. An overload of internal parasites can do quite a bit of damage to the GI tract. 

That said, I haven't wormed my birds in years after reading a study about horses that showed that animals with strong immune systems can keep the environment for over development of parasites to a minimum. It was an experiment that so far has paid off for me since mine are all over five years old, one approaching ten years in the next couple of months.


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## dawg53

When you worm your hens "just when they get worms," internal damage has already occured. Worms cause scarring in the intestinal wall preventing nutrient absorption. Also worms lay thousands of eggs daily in feces, contaminating soil and picked up by other birds. Worms weaken the immune system opening the door for diseases and other problems. 
It's best to worm your birds according to your soil conditions. Warm moist or wet soil requires frequent worming. Cool/cold or hot desert like soil may require less frequent worming, the same is true for rocky or mountainous soil. 
Here where I live, I worm my birds monthly. I rotate wormers with valbazen, safeguard, pyrantel pamoate, sometimes wazine. Zimectrin Gold for tapeworms only.


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## seminole wind

I find that in NY I wormed my horse every 4 months or so. In Florida, monthly half the year. Right now is bot season. They are tiny sticky eggs that you can't possibly get them all off on a daily basis. Best to worm just monthly at the time. My dogs get wormed as puppies, then I don't worm them anymore . But chickens? Robin, you are lucky. Mine get worms here. So I worm


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## robin416

I thought the only way to deal with bot eggs was to remove the eggs.


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## tenn1207

What's a bot egg ? Seminole I see by your profile you're in Florida too, I'm in Tallahassee . What should I worm with ?


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## dawg53

tenn1207 said:


> What's a bot egg ? Seminole I see by your profile you're in Florida too, I'm in Tallahassee . What should I worm with ?


If you are referring to chickens, see post #3.


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## tenn1207

I didn't realize you were in Florida also, thanks


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## seminole wind

Yea, Dawg and I are down here. I'm in spring hill, 40 miles north of Tampa. Dawg is the worm man, I follow his advice which is Valbazen. 

Robin, bot eggs are tiny and sticky and it takes forever to remove them - they don't come off easy. So I just worm my horse from July to when ever they stop. They are still here.


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## robin416

I remember having a bot knife to remove the ones from mine. Of course I don't remember how hard it was to get them off. I remember it being pretty tough when they were down on the legs but on the body seems the knife removed them fairly easily. Or maybe not. It's been a while since I've had to deal with them.


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## seminole wind

YEAH!!! Everyone got wormed! And one got her bangs cut as well.


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## Pbchicken65

Hello I am new to the chicken world, I have 3 8 week old hens should I worm the girls preventively?


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## dawg53

If their feet touch the ground, they'll get worms. I start worming my birds at 6 weeks old. Starting out at a young age, I recommend Valbazen liquid cattle/sheep wormer for initial worming. Then rotate later on with Safeguard liquid goat wormer. I sometimes use Wazine and Pyrantel Pamoate. Read the reviews for each wormer in below links:
http://www.wholesalekennel.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=29
http://www.jefferspet.com/products/safeguard-dewormer-goats-125ml


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## seminole wind

I do think that some animals do build resistance to worms as they age. Some. I've never had a dog that had worms past a year old and checked by a vet. I've never had worms myself. Horses get worms. I don't know how often. But down here at this pasture boarding, bot eggs are all over their legs and are near impossible to scrape them all off unless you have a few extra hours every few days to do it. They will get bots. I think that scraping their legs is a waste of time because they'll get them anyway . So I do worm every 6-8 weeks with a wormer with a boticide. Up north in NY, I had no bot eggs and only worms every 3-4 months

With chickens, I have seen live worms in poo (a long time ago), and I've had one die due to capillaria (threads?) because those worms need a double treatment and I didn't know that. 

Sometimes worms do damage only to let E.coli or c. diff or cocci get a foothold in the damaged parts and kill the chicken. Had I not met Dawg, I would have probably had many more chickens die from worms. 

I think with my dog, past a year old, I would rely on stool samples rather than worm, but this heart worm preventative includes flea preventative and dewormer. So I'm covered. (But not for $200.00 a year. $50-100 a year for something that does the same job.


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## seminole wind

robin416 said:


> I remember having a bot knife to remove the ones from mine. Of course I don't remember how hard it was to get them off. I remember it being pretty tough when they were down on the legs but on the body seems the knife removed them fairly easily. Or maybe not. It's been a while since I've had to deal with them.


I've used a knife and a sand block that's supposed to rub them off and they are sticky and I really don't find them easy to remove or even see them all.


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## dawg53

Birds dont build resistance to worms as they age. Worms literally starve birds to death; just as they do to a dog, cat or human. I'm sure you've heard of people ingesting a tapeworm egg or larva in order to lose weight. If they didnt eventually excrete the tapeworm, they would simply die from the lack of nutrients enabling them to live...it's crazy but true.
Even if chickens were resistant to one particular type of roundworm, I can assure they will be infected by other types of roundworms. 
Dogs are given monthly wormers, unless they've come out with a wormer that's good for several months. I give my dog Trifexis once a month. It prevents different types of roundworm infections. It's the same for chickens and that's another reason I worm my birds monthly. HOWEVER, it depends on the environment and soil conditions. Down south here our soil is warm and wet most of the year which requires frequent worming. Up north where the soil is cool or cold most of the year, worming would only be necessary 3 or 4 times a year...more or less depending on how wet their soil is.
The eggs from capillary worms can survive harsh weather/temps...we're talking millions of eggs in the soil Karen.
Also birds kept on the same soil should be wormed more frequently.


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## tenn1207

Isn't there a time period after worming you shouldn't eat the eggs, if you worm once a month aren't you losing a lot of eggs ?


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## nannypattyrn

Tenn, I think it depends on the wormer that is used. Some of it has a no delay time, some of it does.


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## casportpony

Also depends on the amount of wormer one uses.


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## casportpony

From Farad:
http://www.usfarad.org/drug-wdi-faqs.html

Fenbendazole
Fenbendazole is approved as an oral suspension for laying hens in the United Kingdom for treatment of gastro-intestinal nematodes at a dose of 1mg/kg/bw for 5 days and has a zero day egg and six day meat withdrawal. In the US, since there is no tolerance, this withdrawal needs to be extended.

Piperazine
There is one study looking at piperazine residues in the eggs of treated hens. Piperazine is approved for use in laying hens in Australia and Canada at doses ranging from 130 to 200mg/kg/body weight one time and a zero day egg and meat withdrawal. Because of the lack of a tolerance in the US, FARAD recommends a 17 day egg withdrawal for piperazine used at broiler label doses in laying hens.

Ivermectin
There are limited studies available in the literature on the depletion of ivermectin residues from eggs. Given the limited studies and data available, FARAD cannot provide a blanket withdrawal interval recommendation and individuals are requested to submit a withdrawal interval request to FARAD.

*Note that I don't think ivermectin is a good wormer for poultry, but thought I should include it because it is on the FARAD site.*


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## dawg53

Farad is misinformation at its best.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> Farad is misinformation at its best.


D'oh! I'd like to think that some of their info is correct.


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## casportpony

I think the info about fenbendazole in the UK is correct.


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## MikeA_15

Benzamidazole anthelmintics are the way to go. The misinformation regarding Ivermectin use for poultry knows no bounds.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> Benzamidazole anthelmintics are the way to go. The misinformation regarding Ivermectin use for poultry knows no bounds.


The ivermectin one that bugs me the most is the "put x number of ml in the water". Where did that originate? It's in the Merck Manual, Damerow's book, and many other places. I put a small amount in a test tube of distilled water, and it floated to the top in minutes!


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## casportpony

Did the same experiment with Safeguard. It settled, but took about 24 hours to settle 100%


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## dawg53

casportpony said:


> D'oh! I'd like to think that some of their info is correct.


LOL. Piperazine...I guess they havnt read the label on a bottle of Wazine (piperazine.)


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## dawg53

Too bad they dont sell the AquaSol here, as far as I know. My only BIG CONCERN is that it doesnt treat capillary worms. I've read the same thing in a few other links too. To me, it's a head scratcher lol. But I think it would be especially great for turkeys to eliminate cecal worms. Here's one:
https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/fda/fdaDrugXsl.cfm?setid=62bd7997-81e5-46ca-806c-7407344449ae


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> Too bad they dont sell the AquaSol here, as far as I know. My only BIG CONCERN is that it doesnt treat capillary worms. I've read the same thing in a few other links too. To me, it's a head scratcher lol. But I think it would be especially great for turkeys to eliminate cecal worms. Here's one:
> https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/fda/fdaDrugXsl.cfm?setid=62bd7997-81e5-46ca-806c-7407344449ae


AquaSol *will* treat capillary worms, but a much higher dose has to be given. The amount they suggest giving to treat large roundworms and cecal worms is only 1mg/kg, which with the 10% Safeguard is only 0.0045 ml per pound. I'm guessing that at this level, the amount of fenbendazole residue in the eggs is acceptable, but the amount needed to treat capillary worms is not. Make sense?


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> LOL. Piperazine...I guess they havnt read the label on a bottle of Wazine (piperazine.)


I think that all they are saying is that it can be used in other countries and that they recommend a 17 day egg withdrawal.


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## casportpony

This place sells the water soluble Safeguard.
https://www.bestvetsolutions.com/shop/anthelmintics-45/safe-guard-aquasol-1-gallon

More on the water soluble fenbendazole:

This applies to both Safeguard and Panacur water soluble products


















Source: http://fs-1.5mpublishing.com/images/MSD/PDF/PAP PBulletin v8c FINAL.pdf


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## dawg53

casportpony said:


> AquaSol *will* treat capillary worms, but a much higher dose has to be given. The amount they suggest giving to treat large roundworms and cecal worms is only 1mg/kg, which with the 10% Safeguard is only 0.0045 ml per pound. I'm guessing that at this level, the amount of fenbendazole residue in the eggs is acceptable, but the amount needed to treat capillary worms is not. Make sense?


According to your post #31 in this thread, AquaSol is not to be used to treat capillary worms & requires a different wormer to treat them. I'll stick with the safeguard liquid goat wormer and valbazen.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> According to your post #31 in this thread, AquaSol is not to be used to treat capillary worms & requires a different wormer to treat them. I'll stick with the safeguard liquid goat wormer and valbazen.


You gotta read between the lines... What they mean is that it should not be used as *labeled* to treat capillary worms, or to treat roundworms and cecal worms if the birds also have capillary worms.

Give it at 50x the labeled dose and I *guarantee* that it *will* treat capillary worms, but then the egg withdrawal will not be zero days.

AquaSole *will* treat capillary worms if given at 0.11 ml per pound (50 mg/kg) for five days. The AquaSol label says to use 0.002 ml per pound for five days, which is hardly any medication.

Doesn't matter what the label says, it all comes down to knowing what the active ingredient is (fenbendazole), and the number of mg per ml (200mg/ml).

Make sense?


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## dawg53

"In case of capillaria infestation another appropriate anthelmintic veterinary medicinal product should be used." 
So you're going use more of the product simply to treat capillary worms: That's more than what's needed to get rid of large roundworms and cecal worms. That's a quick way to wormer resistance.
I got a headache; so instead of two aspirins, I'll double it to get rid of the headache quicker, eh? More likely they would eat a hole in my stomach. Savvy?
It would be best to treat at a recommeded dose with a different wormer for capillary worms, most likely flubenvet since it's available in Europe.
This is all useless for us here in the U.S. I'm done.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> "In case of capillaria infestation another appropriate anthelmintic veterinary medicinal product should be used."
> So you're going use more of the product simply to treat capillary worms: That's more than what's needed to get rid of large roundworms and cecal worms. That's a quick way to wormer resistance.
> I got a headache; so instead of two aspirins, I'll double it to get rid of the headache quicker, eh? More likely they would eat a hole in my stomach. Savvy?
> It would be best to treat at a recommeded dose with a different wormer for capillary worms, most likely flubenvet since it's available in Europe.
> This is all useless for us here in the U.S. I'm done.


It's not written very well, I'll give you that, but everyone knows that fenbendazole, any type, will treat capillary worms, right? The product is targeted for those with large flocks that want to use a chemical wormer in the water that has no egg withdrawal time.

For those in the US, it is FDA approved with zero withdrawal for meat birds. Some people may extrapolate that if it's okay to use in the UK with egg layers, it's okay to use here. Those that can get flubendazole in the US probably do that, right? I mean how long would you wait to eat eggs if you treated with flubendazole?

Bottom line... large roundworms and cecal worms can be killed with one dose, but capillary worms need more. Doesn't matter what fenbendazole product you use. How many people give Safeguard just one day and think they're treating roundworms, cecal worms and capillary worms?


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## dawg53

Spin it as you see fit. AquaSol wont treat capillary worms. Other forms of fenbendazole will. Flubendazole isnt readily available in the U.S. as far as I know. If so, it will be very costly. Flubenvet has no egg withdrawal period.


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## lem13

My coop/ run has a concrete floor but with an inch of wood Chipping's on top, would I still need to worm them as often? They will go roaming a couple of times a week in the garden. Cheers


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## dawg53

lem13 said:


> My coop/ run has a concrete floor but with an inch of wood Chipping's on top, would I still need to worm them as often? They will go roaming a couple of times a week in the garden. Cheers


Again, it depends on soil conditions. Warm moist or wet soil requires frequent wormings. Cold or cool or dry soil may not require frequent wormings.


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## MikeA_15

My problem with Fenbendazole is that it requires higher dosages and generally 4-6 days of treatment in a 2 week period. Albendazole is what I prefer, but still realize staggering the use of anthelmintics is the best way to avoid resistance, and there are a number safe for use in chickens, i.e. oxfendazole or Pyrantel. I wouldn't use Levamisole (commonly used for swine but also used for poultry) due to what I've read about reducing white blood cell count and compromising immune responses.


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## lem13

I'm from Wales so is cold and will only be let out in the dry as the run has a roof and drainage to take water away


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## dawg53

lem13 said:


> I'm from Wales so is cold and will only be let out in the dry as the run has a roof and drainage to take water away


Perhaps you'll only need to worm your birds twice a year. I recommend Flubenvet. Give it to your birds at the beginning spring time and at the end of the summer prior to molt.


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## lem13

Ok thanks for that


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