# Natural Remedies 4 Worms, Coccidiosis and Necrotic Enteritis



## AnneKathrin

This is my first post here and I am so excited about joining your community. I can't wait to learn from you all! I hate to jump in with questions like this but I have a case that is pretty urgent and I really need help. So, here goes...

I have a sick bird who I suspect has one of the above issues. I am trying to help him naturally but I need help asap as he is pretty weak. What can I give him that is a natural remedy to help him? He is currently getting colloidal silver, apple cider vinegar and molasses. He isn't eating but he will drink if we show him the water and dip his beak in. Here is a link with the details to his dilemma thus far if it helps any: http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/1...ely-tired-and-constantly-sleeping-i-need-help

Thanks and looking forward to learning from you all here!


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## Alaskan

As soon as you say the words "necrotic" anything.... My answer will be to either mercifully cull him, or use powerful modern medicine.

Unfortunately the three things you list ask for totally different treatments.

Worms... Well, there are many kinds, and different ones respond better to different medications... I would try to google how to do a fecal float test to figure out what worms he has... They have youtube videos for everything nowadays.... Hopefully you can find something, since it is of course a weekend.. Otherwise I would say to bring his poop to a vet, usually a fecal test by the vet is pretty inexpensive.

Coccidiosis, especially a strong case, requires medication.

And necrotic anything probably needs a strong antibiotic.

Sorry, .i am no good with natural treatments.


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## seminole wind

AnneKathrin said:


> This is my first post here and I am so excited about joining your community. I can't wait to learn from you all! I hate to jump in with questions like this but I have a case that is pretty urgent and I really need help. So, here goes...
> 
> I have a sick bird who I suspect has one of the above issues. I am trying to help him naturally but I need help asap as he is pretty weak. What can I give him that is a natural remedy to help him? He is currently getting colloidal silver, apple cider vinegar and molasses. He isn't eating but he will drink if we show him the water and dip his beak in. Here is a link with the details to his dilemma thus far if it helps any: http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/1...ely-tired-and-constantly-sleeping-i-need-help
> 
> Thanks and looking forward to learning from you all here!


Hi and Welcome!!!!

Natural cures are not tried and true. With the nasty bugs we have today, medicines have a much better chance of saving a sick chicken. I am not good at natural remedies because I don't use them. Hopefully some people here do, if that's the way you want to treat. People should treat the way they are comfortable with.

Molasses is good for constipation, it has a laxative effect. apple cider vinegar aka ACV is supposed to be unprocessed (mother). That is good for the health when you have good health and want to keep it. The idea of Colloidal silver came from in way way back years, they used silver to make their eating utensils because it was thought to be sort of antibacterial or antiviral. So using it as a natural cure was derived from that. It was never proven to work.

Due to several scares , I personally give any sick chicken who is skinny amoxicillin and sulfadimethoxine. That covers most of the germs and cocci and enteritis that a chicken can get. I also worm with Valbazen or safeguard for goats. I dust for lice with Sevin. Other people use other things or brands or have a different philosophy than I do. We still eat the eggs at this time but many do not, and I do not give out any eggs at that time.

There's a bunch of members here that are knowledgeable and will help, and give you their suggestions. Just keep asking questions. There's many different ways and things that will help a sick chicken.


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## casportpony

Welcome to Chicken Forum! I tend to treat my sick birds very aggressively with an assortment of drugs and supportive care (tube feeding and 80-85 degree hospital cages). Let me know if you're willing to use medications and I'm sure I can help you come up with a plan.


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## robin416

I'm not going to suggest anything because nothing was really said to adequately describe what all is going on with the bird currently and in the recent past. No age is listed, nothing about feed.

What I will say is that there is no natural wormer that will rid a bird of an overload of internal parasites. The natural remedies will help in preventing it from happening but none will remove them. Everyone here knows someone that tried it and found even the natural remedies did not prevent her flock becoming wormy.


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## seminole wind

It's unfortunate that with all the homesteading/live off the land/being self sufficient/anti pesticide, etc. that there are no "natural" remedies that work as well as modern medicine. However, there are thousands of drugs that were invented using the natural remedy as a model. Like green mold on bread/penicillin....well sortof.


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## robin416

Yep, and that's why they're so concerned about the deforestation in other countries. There are so many plants and trees there than can aid in the development of new treatments.


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## dawg53

AnneKathrin said:


> This is my first post here and I am so excited about joining your community. I can't wait to learn from you all! I hate to jump in with questions like this but I have a case that is pretty urgent and I really need help. So, here goes...
> 
> I have a sick bird who I suspect has one of the above issues. I am trying to help him naturally but I need help asap as he is pretty weak. What can I give him that is a natural remedy to help him? He is currently getting colloidal silver, apple cider vinegar and molasses. He isn't eating but he will drink if we show him the water and dip his beak in. Here is a link with the details to his dilemma thus far if it helps any: http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/1...ely-tired-and-constantly-sleeping-i-need-help
> 
> Thanks and looking forward to learning from you all here!


I'd start with the basics: Inspect him closely for lice/mites, especially around the vent area where it's warm and moist. Mites suck blood, cause anemia, then death. Then worm him with valbazen liquid cattle/sheep wormer. Administer using a syringe without a needle. Dosage is 1/2cc orally undiluted. Repeat again in 10 days. Valbazen acts slowly over several days killing worms, preventing intestinal blockage and toxic dead worm overload. 
Colloidial silver, ACV, molasses wont do anything for mites or worms. Also, molasses acts as a flush in chickens. I recommend that you dont give him mollasses at all. After worming, give him buttermilk mixed with scrambled egg for a couple of days to rebuild his immune system and strength...IF it's not too late.


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## MichaelA69

dawg offered some good advice. When I suspect worms, cocci, or bacterial infections, all of which can cause enteritis, I first acknowledge if there has been any stress or change in diet. I will supplement water daily with electrolytes and probiotic powder to see if that helps for a couple days. I check weight of birds to see if any are underweight and check vent feathers for evidence of watery droppings or mites. If any are underweight I will deworm and run Corid/Amprol in water at a treatment dose (1.5 tsp for powder/2-3 tsp for liquid per gallon of water) for 5-7 days. I will always deworm again 10 days after the first dose. 

If, during that time period I do not see improvement, I would suspect clostridium or E.coli which Lincomycin, and most streptomycin antibiotics are effective against. I keep a pretty sanitary yard and coop, so generally deworming/treating for Coccidiosis does the trick. Whenever I use a drug or antibiotic, I always follow up with poultry vitamins-electrolytes, and Probios dispersible powder for a few days in drinkers.


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## AnneKathrin

Thank you so much for your quick replies and advice! I will definitely continue researching and treating him, he seems to actually be recovering though  I am hoping for a continuing recovery.

Robin416, I am sorry I wasn't clearer about my roo's info. If you go to the link I posted in my first post it will take you to another thread I started on a different forum. It has all the info about him that I think you are looking for. Again, I am really sorry I wasn't clearer about that, I just thought it would be easier to read everything I already typed out starting from when he first got sick.

Another quick question: since he isn't eating is there a soft food I can give him that will get him vital nutrients? Yogurt maybe? Or should I powder some of his corn? Maybe pumpkin puree (heard that was good for getting rid of worms)?...

Hoping for another day of improvement tomorrow!


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## Alaskan

Mashed up egg is an excellent feed for poorly feeling animals.


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## Alaskan

Oh, pumpkin puree is excellent for diarrhea, or constipation actually... But does nothing for worms.

I have heard that pumpkin seed can be a natural worm preventative... But I am not sure that it can help with a heavy worm load.


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## dawg53

A chicken would have to eat a truckload of crushed pumpkin seeds over a long period of time in order to be effective enough to kill worms.
Buttermilk mixed with scrambled egg and/or feed is a much better probiotic than yogurt.


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## AnneKathrin

Ok, thanks! I will try that next. Which is better, scrambled, hard boiled or raw? I would try scrambled except he isn't eating any solids right now. Maybe - I have never tried this - but pureeing a scrambled egg??? 

Update on roo: he is staying awake most of the time though he still isn't moving much. He seems to be steadily recovering though! I know this can be a subject of debate but I will say that anytime I have used colloidal silver it has been a success and this time has been the same thus far. We had personal experience in the past with the silver and it healed one of our horses when most people said that theirs died even with doctors and drugs. I don't have any objection to people using drugs or medicine, I am just using what has worked for me. 

Have a great day and looking forward to hearing back from you!


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## casportpony

One thing you might want to do is start weighing him daily at the same time every morning. If he is getting better he will be gaining weight. I use a kitchen scale from Target.


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## seminole wind

Yup . Due to Kathy's little voice in the back of my head, I ended up buying a scale. Good cheap investment.


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Yup . Due to Kathy's little voice in the back of my head, I ended up buying a scale. Good cheap investment.


It's one of the most used items in my kit. Saw them on sale a Harbor Freight a few months ago, and I think you can get one for cheap on eBay, or maybe Amazon? Of course Target and Walmart have them, but I think they're in the $20-$30 range.


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## seminole wind

casportpony said:


> It's one of the most used items in my kit. Saw them on sale a Harbor Freight a few months ago, and I think you can get one for cheap on eBay, or maybe Amazon? Of course Target and Walmart have them, but I think they're in the $20-$30 range.


Mine was cheaper than that. Amazon.


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## perchiegirl

scribble scribble scribble... adding scale to my first aid kit list....


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## AnneKathrin

That's a great idea, and since I already have a scale...

He is still doing ok. He seems a little stronger but progress is slow. We are noticing when he walks around that he has a large lump near his gullet. Since he hasn't been eating I have no idea what it is. I will see if I can get a picture of it maybe. Does anyone know what this might be?

Also, if you get a chance I am wondering what to do about giving him eggs. Like I mentioned earlier, he isn't eating, so scrambled eggs aren't really an option. Are raw or pureed eggs alright?

Thank you all for your help and support! Looking forward to hearing from you!


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## casportpony

AnneKathrin said:


> That's a great idea, and since I already have a scale...
> 
> He is still doing ok. He seems a little stronger but progress is slow. We are noticing when he walks around that he has a large lump near his gullet. Since he hasn't been eating I have no idea what it is. I will see if I can get a picture of it maybe. Does anyone know what this might be?
> 
> Also, if you get a chance I am wondering what to do about giving him eggs. Like I mentioned earlier, he isn't eating, so scrambled eggs aren't really an option. Are raw or pureed eggs alright?
> 
> Thank you all for your help and support! Looking forward to hearing from you!


A picture will help...

As for trying to get a sick bird to eat, I'm not patient enough, so I tube feed.  Takes less than two minutes twice a day. Let me know if you want to learn.


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## AnneKathrin

I would love to! I will see if I can get a picture.


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## casportpony

To tube you will need to get a 60 ml catheter tip syringe from Tractor Supply, a tube and Kaytee Baby Bird Food from Petsmart or Petco. Would be best to get a catheter like this:
http://www.internationalcockatielresource.com/uploads/1/5/2/0/15203836/3509997_orig.jpg

But if you can't get one of those, get 16" of aquarium air line


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## seminole wind

I have given mine raw egg beaten , bread cubes and some sugar added. They like it. 

Right now I'm doing one hen with tube feedings like Kathy taught me. It's also a great way to make sure they get their meds. I use the Kaytee hand feeding stuff.


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## casportpony

Watch these:
Part one - 



Part two - 




Chicken:





And this:


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## AnneKathrin

Wow, thank you! You have gone above and beyond to help me! So the bird food is ok for the roo? I actually have parrots so I might have some of the food needed but will have to make a shopping trip to get the tubing.

Is there a restriction to the food I can tube feed him, (other than pellets and the like of course ?


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## casportpony

AnneKathrin said:


> Wow, thank you! You have gone above and beyond to help me! So the bird food is ok for the roo? I actually have parrots so I might have some of the food needed but will have to make a shopping trip to get the tubing.
> 
> Is there a restriction to the food I can tube feed him, (other than pellets and the like of course ?


I tube baby parrot food to all ages of ducks, chickens, peafowl, guineas, turkeys, etc, so any brand of baby bird food will be fine, but I think Kaytee will be the most affordable. This is the one I use:

http://www.kaytee.com/products/exact-hand-feeding-baby-bird.php

*Guaranteed Analysis:*

Crude Protein (min.)....................22.0% Crude Fat (min.).........................9.0% Crude Fiber (max.).......................5.0% Moisture (max.).........................10.0% Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min.)...............0.5% Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) (min.)........0.05% Protease (min.)..........................0.2 CSU(1)/g Amylase (min.)...........................0.4 SLU(2)/g Total Bacillus Species(3)(min.)....250,000 CFU(4)/g
I think they also make one with a higher fat content, but I haven't used that one.


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## perchiegirl

So If he has a crop impaction... will crop feeding be a good idea...? Just stupid lateral thinking here....


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## casportpony

If you can find a catheter, the size you want is an 18-24 french. A little smaller will work, but I like the bigger ones for mature birds.


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## casportpony

perchiegirl said:


> So If he has a crop impaction... will crop feeding be a good idea...? Just stupid lateral thinking here....


If the crop is full of food, and not water, tubing fluids will help break it up and get it moving. If the crop feels like a water balloon, no point in tubing anything.

Since this bird has not been drinking properly I was going to suggest tubing just fluids for the first 12 hours to correct hydration.

The large lump sure could be an impacted crop caused by an impaction in the crop, or there could be something further in that's blocking the gizzard, proventriculus (stomach) or iintestines.


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## casportpony

Anatomy picture:


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## casportpony

Last picture wasn't very good, I like this one better:


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## AnneKathrin

If you put your finger almost exactly between the crop and waddle, that is where his lump is. His crop seems fine, but the lump above feels hard as bone. It isn't exactly round, more a weird asymmetrical shape.


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## casportpony

AnneKathrin said:


> If you put your finger almost exactly between the crop and waddle, that is where his lump is. His crop seems fine, but the lump above feels hard as bone. It isn't exactly round, more a weird asymmetrical shape.


We really need to see a picture... wet his feathers and try to get a good shot of it.


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## seminole wind

Could it be a neck bone?


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Could it be a neck bone?


Maybe? Picture would be really helpful.


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## AnneKathrin

Sorry I haven't gotten one out to you yet, it's been busy. I will try to get a photo today where you can see it.

It might be his neck bone, but if so it isn't sitting normally.

Thanks!


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## casportpony

Has he lost weight? Sometimes a thin bird will feel very different than a fat one.


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## AnneKathrin

He felt somewhat thin when I first found out he was sick. He seems to be maintaining his weight though, and becoming increasingly more alert, just still no desire to eat on his own. 

Here are some photos. He was a model patient, letting me move him around to get some pics. I don't know how well you can tell what is going on but here is what I could get. In one of the photos I tried to get a picture where you can see his gullet and the lump, which are pretty clearly in different places. It didn't capture it very well though, he has too many feathers ;-)

Btw, sorry these didn't get out to you earlier. I typed the above and took the pictures this morning, it has just taken this long for them to download. Sigh. Sometimes technology can be frustratingly slow and complicated.

Anyway, hope these give you some idea of what is going on. Thanks again for all your help!


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## AnneKathrin

Wait a sec, where did the pictures go?


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## AnneKathrin

My picture disappeared even after I uploaded and attached them. When I went back to the uploads it said that the link were either invalid or to talk to the administrator if there was a problem with a valid link. Does anyone know why they wouldn't post?


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## casportpony

Not sure what the problem is, but you can email them to me and I'll post hem for you if you want. My email is my username @gmail.com


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## seminole wind

I don't know where the pictures went. So I'll list the instructions I use.

go to manage attachments, left click
left click on browse. This should take you to your pictures on your computer. 
Left click on picture. Then go down and left click on "open". This should bring you back to the page that says "browse" , only click on "upload". Wait a few seconds and the jpg picture should show up under "manage attachments". If you see it there (in blue) that's it. It should be in your post when you hit post reply.

Is this what you did?


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## AnneKathrin

Did they get to you?


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## seminole wind

I do hope we get to see those pictures, LOL


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## AnneKathrin

Yep that is what I did. The only difference is that when I hit post they disappeared. I wonder if there is something wrong with the photos. Maybe too big or something? Anyway, did they make it to you yet Casportpony? Do they open?

Sorry about all the trouble. Most likely it is user error. :-( I will have to get a bit more tech savvy. ;-)


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## seminole wind

No trouble AnneKathrin.

So, when you beam up the pictures, do they appear in blue writing under the "manage attachments"? Then you click "post reply" and they don't show up?


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## casportpony

AnneKathrin said:


> Did they get to you?


Did you email them to me? I have not checked my email since yesterday.


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## AnneKathrin

seminolewind said:


> No trouble AnneKathrin.
> 
> So, when you beam up the pictures, do they appear in blue writing under the "manage attachments"? Then you click "post reply" and they don't show up?


Yep. After them not showing up the first time I tried clicking on the blue links to see if they would even open but there was an issue then too. Something about problems with the link.

Thank you for your understanding! Can't wait until you can see them!


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## AnneKathrin

casportpony said:


> Did you email them to me? I have not checked my email since yesterday.


Yes, I sent them, late yesterday I think? I wanted to double check to make sure that the photos would open, so I went to my sent mail to check and they seemed to work fine. So hopefully, these should get to you no problem.

Thank you for your help!


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## casportpony

Okay, I will look for them.


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## AnneKathrin

Thank you casportpony!


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## casportpony

Found the email!


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## AnneKathrin

Yay!!! Finally! 

An encouraging update too. Today he started drinking on his own, he was walking around with the flock and even doing some preening!!! Up till this point he has been dependent on us for practically everything: moving him out of the coop, putting him in the sun, taking him in during bad weather, food and water and health maintenance, even going to bed. This is a huge thing for him! Honestly, two days after he had gotten sick he was so weak and had so little desire to do anything we thought he was going to die. He was in that shutdown mode where he didn't care about food or water, he just lay down and didn't wake up. It didn't matter whether or not we picked him up or gave him water, he ignored us. Either that or he was just too weak to do anything. His recovery is a miracle and I am so glad he is almost back normal.

That said, he still does have the hump shown in the picture. It seems like a bone or something when I feel it. What is your feeling of what was going on and will it ever go away? Even though he is recovering, it would be great to figure out what the problem was so that I will know how to better prevent another case.

Thank you all so much for all your help! I really appreciate your support and advice throughout his illness. Have a great night!


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## AnneKathrin

Btw, just thought I would add one more note. When examining him for that picture we found out that he had mites. We are treating that but there was something funny when we looked. In the picture, where the skin is all wrinkled and messed up, we didn't see any mites. It was only in the places where his skin looked normal. Is that just a coincidence?


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## seminole wind

I can't wait to see what Kathy says about all this. The bump is not his crop, right? He didn't swallow a ping pong ball right? Why is his comb like all nubby? 

Tonight I got the horse spray out and sprayed everyone's butt. Seems the sevin powder doesn't reach there. I think the lice are hiding there.


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## AnneKathrin

He is a game bird and has a distinguished comb. I am practically positive it is not his crop and we don't have any ping pong balls. If you feel it too, it is far from round. Really strange.

Yes, lice are quite annoying. Hope that the spray takes care of them


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## dawg53

Probably a distended crop, and it's rubbing on the roost when perched. If that's the case, a crop bra may help.


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## seminole wind

Yea, my speckled Sussex are great at having crops the size of tennis balls. 
AnneKathrin, wish there was a good way of communicating this thing. You think it could be a tumor?


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## AnneKathrin

AnneKathrin said:


> He is a game bird and has a distinguished comb. I am practically positive it is not his crop and we don't have any ping pong balls. If you feel it too, it is far from round. Really strange.
> 
> Yes, lice are quite annoying. Hope that the spray takes care of them


Whoops, I meant ornamental bird, not game, though that may be possible.


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## AnneKathrin

Maybe, we have thought about that occasionally. It really feels like a bone, even the shape of it. Almost like a distended/dislocated sternum? It could be a tumor, it just doesn't act like one that I can tell.

He is doing so much better. He is back to eating and drinking, and he has regained a night time roost with the top birds of the flock. It is amazing to see the drastic change. It is just that lump that gives any indication of his illness, occasionally it causes trouble with balance. Is it possible he dislocated something?


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## seminole wind

I know when mine lose weight, it seems like that bone becomes prominent and feels odd.


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## AnneKathrin

That might be it. Hopefully, once he has regained his weight it will go away again.


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## AnneKathrin

Final update:

He is with the flock, acting "practically perfect in every way" and showing very little signs of ever having been ill. Occasionally he will have the slightest of balance issues, and his bone configuration doesn't seem normal yet, but mostly he seems just fine. Whether or not everything corrects itself, he is back to our little Kernel Sanders, with all his peculiarities and charming quirks. 

Thank you all so much for your help and support!!! Wishing the best for you and your flocks!


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## seminole wind

I'm so glad he recovered!


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## MichaelA69

That's great news. It is always humbling to save a sick bird and see them return to good health. It is also very sad when I lose one.


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## Barredrockmom

I have used C Silver on sick song birds but at a low concentration. It was 25 PPM. I have no idea what concentration you used but I have had success where antibiotics killed a sick song bird. Chickens are less delicate. 

I have also used Pau De Arco which we use when we feel a cold coming on. You can safely use this on birds. I have many others that I might try but so far...knock on wood...my birds remain healthy. I did have a stargazer once. No herbs for that.


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## AnneKathrin

That's great! I agree, I have found colloidal silver to be helpful even in cases where conventional medicines were not working. I know it can be a subject of debate, but I believe that natural alternatives are the most effective and the best solutions to many illnesses. I know that there are time when conventional medicines are needed, but there is a time and a place for everything, and I think that we should use God's natural medicines in their times.

It is humbling to be able to be used to save a life. I am so glad that was the case with our rooster. It is also humbling and heartbreaking to lose a life, but it makes me more aware of God's control and how I am but a tool in his hand. That can be a hard lesson to learn though, when it comes in that way.


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## perchiegirl

My dad used to make his own Colloidal silver.


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## seminole wind

AnneKathrin said:


> That's great! I agree, I have found colloidal silver to be helpful even in cases where conventional medicines were not working. I know it can be a subject of debate, but I believe that natural alternatives are the most effective and the best solutions to many illnesses. I know that there are time when conventional medicines are needed, but there is a time and a place for everything, and I think that we should use God's natural medicines in their times.
> 
> It is humbling to be able to be used to save a life. I am so glad that was the case with our rooster. It is also humbling and heartbreaking to lose a life, but it makes me more aware of God's control and how I am but a tool in his hand. That can be a hard lesson to learn though, when it comes in that way.


Most of us will support you in either method. It's your personal decision to do what you think is best. Most of us just want you to know all the options.


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## MichaelA69

AnneKathrin said:


> That's great! I agree, I have found colloidal silver to be helpful even in cases where conventional medicines were not working. I know it can be a subject of debate, but I believe that natural alternatives are the most effective and the best solutions to many illnesses. I know that there are time when conventional medicines are needed, but there is a time and a place for everything, and I think that we should use God's natural medicines in their times.
> 
> It is humbling to be able to be used to save a life. I am so glad that was the case with our rooster. It is also humbling and heartbreaking to lose a life, but it makes me more aware of God's control and how I am but a tool in his hand. That can be a hard lesson to learn though, when it comes in that way.


Without nature,science could not derive medicines whether they are organic or synthetic. The problem with parasites and microorganisms is they adapt to natural treatments over time. Pyrethrins were once very effective flea treatments for dogs and cats, and now is much less effective. The same can be said for Northern fowl mites on poultry.

Viruses mutate to adapt and survive. People often blame the antibiotic when it is the reckless use of antibiotics causing immunity/microorganisms naturally adapting and overcoming. Nature is an ongoing process, every living thing is a survival species, and believe God gave us the intellect to use science for good or for bad, and it is our free will to do right or wrong, good or evil in regard to it. Those of us who have faith desire to see science working with nature instead of against it. At least I do.

There are numerous snake oil products being sold as remedial treatment for avian enthusiasts. Homeopathic/organic remedies marketed to chicken owners can be just as dangerous when dealing with disease if they have no efficacy. Most of these people capitalizing off of trendy "green" products are just opportunists, such as the Wormguard and Zyfend. There are also pharmaceuticals which do not have the efficacy they once had, yet are still sold as "the cure" whether it is Ivermectin or Piperazine. New people entering the responsibility of raising chickens need to educate themselves by observing trials conducted by university poultry science departments. Diet and supplementation is as important as what type of medicine to use and general husbandry.


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## AnneKathrin

I wholeheartedly agree. Thank you so much everyone for all your help and advice! I am thrilled to be a part of this forum and to be learning from and discussing with you all the care and raising of poultry. Looking forward to a continuing learning experience here!


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## casportpony

Wormguard, hadn't head of that one.


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## MichaelA69

casportpony said:


> Wormguard, hadn't head of that one.


This is the stuff, that sadly, outfits like Jeffers still sell. It is worthless and did a year long trial with it about 9 years ago by following label directions in feed. I ended up discovering worms and treating with Valbazen.
http://www.theholistichorse.com/sho...mguard-plus-broad-spectrum-for-poultry-2-lbs/


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## casportpony

No argument here, lol.


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## perchiegirl

MichaelA69 said:


> This is the stuff, that sadly, outfits like Jeffers still sell. It is worthless and did a year long trial with it about 9 years ago by following label directions in feed. I ended up discovering worms and treating with Valbazen.
> http://www.theholistichorse.com/sho...mguard-plus-broad-spectrum-for-poultry-2-lbs/


DE with alot of verbage and probiotics is still DE... But it still has probiotics...

Not a fan of mis direction....

deb


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## robin416

I have a particular dislike for Vet RX. Talk about snake oil. And from what I was told they now say mix with water and put drops in a bird's eyes. Someone should sue them for recommending torturing the bird. 

I've gotten kind of nasty by telling people to put it in their own eyes first and then decide whether or not it should be used on the birds.


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## dawg53

robin416 said:


> I have a particular dislike for Vet RX. Talk about snake oil. And from what I was told they now say mix with water and put drops in a bird's eyes. Someone should sue them for recommending torturing the bird.
> 
> I've gotten kind of nasty by telling people to put it in their own eyes first and then decide whether or not it should be used on the birds.


Right. It would be like putting Vick's Vapor Rub in your eye, it would burn. Another snake oil product is Verm-X.
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2012/01/ve...eal-evidence-to-show-it-is-safe-or-effective/


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## MichaelA69

dawg53 said:


> Right. It would be like putting Vick's Vapor Rub in your eye, it would burn. Another snake oil product is Verm-X.
> http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2012/01/ve...eal-evidence-to-show-it-is-safe-or-effective/


Vet-Rx was always just a leg treatment and feather sheen product for show. It can assist with minor respiratory problems by assisting the airways by rubbing a bit around the nares, or a few drops underneath the wing, but that's about it. It really doesn't do much and certainly isn't a cure for anything. Hokum and old wives tales are attributed to all sorts of products. We know about the hokum regarding many of them.

My favorite oil for dry skin on combs and waddles is jojoba oil. It is way cheaper for 10x the amount you'd pay for a bottle of Vet-RX. It penetrates the skin without leaving a film like thicker oils with just a scant amount. That is the oil I use to cut the pasty Nu-Stock when treating scaly leg.


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## seminole wind

One of those popular $30 fixes turned out to be diluted bleach


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## robin416

I know which one you're talking about. I can't believe how many people have fallen for it. My best friend was going to go spend money on it until I did the research and told her it was nothing more than diluted bleach. Sometimes I think she'd tell me she's going to do stuff before she did it because I could analyze the ingredients and let her know if it would work or not. Or if it was worth the price.


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## seminole wind

Yea, I spent the $30 once for it, and opened the bottle and it had a faint bleach smell. So I read the ingredients, and the chemical is written in a way that the bleach chemical is broken down and does not look like bleach. But if you google the ingredient, it does come up bleach. In a twisted way.


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## Barredrockmom

How is your little Rooster now? He sure is pretty.


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## AnneKathrin

Thanks for asking! He is doing great, outside foraging with the flock again. I am glad he could get back out there before it got too cold. We got another scare when we had some hawks come after our pullets and keets. I was standing right there one of the first times it happened and they came back several times afterwards. Very daring. The chickens all set off an alarm and scurried for cover. I was worried that he wouldn't be fast enough to avoid and hide from it while we were rounding up the hens to put them in their run and since he was stuck in some brush. Everyone, including the pullets and keets, escaped unharmed though! He seems healthy enough to fend for himself now and I think he is fully recovered!

Thank you! He is currently our only rooster of that type, a decorative Cubalaya, and we are hoping to get a female maybe next year so we can have more. He is adorable and his "big guy" toughness in such a small body makes him especially cute. He acts like he is three times his size ;-) Cubalayas have quickly become one of my favorite breeds, they are a wonderful addition to any flock.


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## seminole wind

I've only had a hawk take one small pullet. But no other problem because I think the crows chase them away. I can't believe they are so bold right in front of people.


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## AnneKathrin

I was surprised at their boldness too. Just a few days ago I thought they had moved on, but when I let the chickens out it wasn't but a day before they showed up again. This time the crows didn't get wind of them until after they were flying away. Fortuanately, again they were unsuccessful, but I think that the chickens will be staying in for a while. I feel sorry for them, but it is better than being hawk lunch.

Any tips on scaring the hawks off, or deterring them?


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## seminole wind

Not offhand. Just the crows and they are attracted to eggs. Maybe leave some out In the open to attract the crows. I'd rather have crows stealing eggs than hawks waiting for a meal. Another thing is that any type of young chirping will attract hawks. I keep big chickens but the silkie are penned and the Polish have a net over. 

Maybe someone will come along with advice.


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## Alaskan

I haven't found any way to deter a determined raptor (hawk, eagle, falcon, owl, etc.), except for good stout wire.


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## seminole wind

Some people let their chickens out late like an hour before dark when they say that the raptors have gone home from a day of hunting.

I'll bet the other thing about this area is we are pigeonville USA. This 1 square mile area has some real pricey pigeons and big big coops. Maybe the raptors have better luck at other people's houses, LOL. 

It's raining here again. Blah.


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## Alaskan

Later in the day the hawks go to bed... And the owls start coming out!

That period where it is not yet getting dark is a prime owl hunting time. At least up here, probably because owls MUST hunt during daylight hours.


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## MichaelA69

In drought during certain times of the year, predators are more desperate and persistent acquiring food. I have wild deer that find refuge all Summer here to give birth since housing development has ruined much of the area here. Does look pretty ragged and skinny so I supplement feed them. This will bring coyotes at times that need to be shot. Then in late Fall the deer begin to their trek to the hills again, and return next year. I cage trap fox/***** if I see them hanging around the property and quickly cull them. 

Hawks are always a problem. I am not advocating illegal activity, but safely picking them off with a shotgun/rifle or jaw trap on a post with a clump of feathers tied to the center of it with fishing line, flipping in the breeze has been known to eliminate them. I am fortunate to have many trees chickens can find refuge under when ranging. Mediterranean breeds tend to be more alert than dual purpose/large breeds when it comes to predators.

Crows have been known to carry nasty avian viruses, and of course numerous quail and wild birds reside where I am. The best thing to do is cover a yard with 1" chicken wire and only feed in those protected areas. 

Wild bird feeders can be a real problem with all the droppings which can accumulate under the feeder. Chickens picking around that area are likely to pick up diseases there too. 

I keep bait boxes around the barn with bar bait which cannot be removed from the box. Rats/mice must go there to feed, and since I'm out there every day, I will see a dead one if it exists and dispose of it.

There are lots of preventative methods that work, but sometimes you just have to kill those things which prey upon your animals. I don't like it, but know it is my responsibility.


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## seminole wind

Due to the crows, I have no hawk problem or small bird problem. I may see a hawk at those times that crows are sitting on eggs. It's a kind of good/bad relationship. Usually they come down, steal and egg and leave . Maybe a few times, too. 

I have bait stations. If all the feed is locked tight at night, they eat more bait. Most run off and die. I believe I've seen 4 dead rats in 4 years, and the chickens didn't notice them.


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## perchiegirl

they found three dead mountain lions up in Northern Claifornia two were about six months old and they died of starvation.... ONe was a full on adult that died of rat poision.

deb


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## MichaelA69

perchiegirl said:


> they found three dead mountain lions up in Northern Claifornia two were about six months old and they died of starvation.... ONe was a full on adult that died of rat poision.
> 
> deb


That's unfortunate. Irresponsible people should not be the determinant for the responsible though. Nothing worse than nanny state mentality which ultimately becomes a burden to taxpayers and demonizes responsible people through unfair legislation. Residuals in poisoned rats have not been the cause of numerous mortality in non-target species. Especially when secondary poisoning is less likely with blocks like Contrac which has an antidote to the poison (vitamin K). Seminole, like myself, use bar bait in stations which are not accessible to other animals.

There was a recent news report about some dirt bag leaving rat poison in meat along trails where people walk their dogs. I wouldn't ban the bait, but certainly believe an individual doing such things should be put before a firing squad. It is kind of like the lunatic who buys a rifle and kills a bunch of people. The guns shouldn't be banned, but the individual committing such a crime should be put to death. Perhaps if more accountability were put on people committing crimes, the realization of the consequences would be a better deterrent.

Where I am the animal rights crazies complained about glue traps stating they were cruel. I happen to think it is much crueler to allow a rat population to increase where disease is spread to humans and other animals, and thousands of dollars in damage has been done.


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## Alaskan

I love glue traps.....


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## perchiegirl

MichaelA69 said:


> That's unfortunate. Irresponsible people should not be the determinant for the responsible though. Nothing worse than nanny state mentality which ultimately becomes a burden to taxpayers and demonizes responsible people through unfair legislation. Residuals in poisoned rats have not been the cause of numerous mortality in non-target species. Especially when secondary poisoning is less likely with blocks like Contrac which has an antidote to the poison (vitamin K). Seminole, like myself, use bar bait in stations which are not accessible to other animals.
> 
> There was a recent news report about some dirt bag leaving rat poison in meat along trails where people walk their dogs. I wouldn't ban the bait, but certainly believe an individual doing such things should be put before a firing squad. It is kind of like the lunatic who buys a rifle and kills a bunch of people. The guns shouldn't be banned, but the individual committing such a crime should be put to death. Perhaps if more accountability were put on people committing crimes, the realization of the consequences would be a better deterrent.
> 
> Where I am the animal rights crazies complained about glue traps stating they were cruel. I happen to think it is much crueler to allow a rat population to increase where disease is spread to humans and other animals, and thousands of dollars in damage has been done.


I have no doubt that it was an intentional poisoning... people are stupid. Mountain lions are not endangered... report it to the authorities if you have an issue. They can and will carry off game as large as a human...

We have a community up in the mountains here that they have documented nightly forage sessions within town limits... looking for dogs and cats. People are warned through out the city and even San Diego proper... DONT leave out food for your pets. The way San Diego is layed out provides natural growth canyons as a highway for wild life. Clear to the ocean.

Recent law changes allowing chickens within city limits are going to increase preadator interections for sure. Its worth it though.

I am one who will kill a predator Only as a last resort. I would rather condition the resident predators that my fences bite. No matter how tempting the food is on the otherside. What this does is keep the predator and keep his territory intact... keeping others at bey.

deb


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## seminole wind

I think we need stronger punishments for animal abusers. It's a good thing that chickens got popular which is changing how food production animals are kept . What happened after California refused Missouri eggs because their cages were too small?


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## perchiegirl

Alaskan said:


> I love glue traps.....


I tried them. Till I had to remove a sparrow from one. Actually the rat poison in the doses to kill a rat is pretty benign. I had a house that was infested by Norwegian Rats... the size of a bedroom slipper. What the rats do is pack their cheeks and take it home to the nest.

But I would prefer to do it another way if I could. The best way is to make sure your house is impenetrable... inspecting openings in the eves and where utilities come in... Hardware cloth is the only deterrent. Steel wool is only good for mice... Rats will pull it out with their teeth. And the other way is to not have food out.

deb


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## perchiegirl

seminolewind said:


> I think we need stronger punishments for animal abusers. It's a good thing that chickens got popular which is changing how food production animals are kept . What happened after California refused Missouri eggs because their cages were too small?


I didn't hear of this. A carton of eggs these days is four bucks, here.

deb


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## Alaskan

Deb, Isn't that super expensive for that area? Up here they are just a few pennies under $5, but being in Alaska I expect everything to be more expensive.


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## seminole wind

perchiegirl said:


> I tried them. Till I had to remove a sparrow from one. Actually the rat poison in the doses to kill a rat is pretty benign. I had a house that was infested by Norwegian Rats... the size of a bedroom slipper. What the rats do is pack their cheeks and take it home to the nest.
> 
> But I would prefer to do it another way if I could. The best way is to make sure your house is impenetrable... inspecting openings in the eves and where utilities come in... Hardware cloth is the only deterrent. Steel wool is only good for mice... Rats will pull it out with their teeth. And the other way is to not have food out.
> 
> deb


that's really gross. How did you end up with a house like that? I feel that rats are a continuing maintenance. Keep food locked up and bait stations out.


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## perchiegirl

Alaskan said:


> Deb, Isn't that super expensive for that area? Up here they are just a few pennies under $5, but being in Alaska I expect everything to be more expensive.


I guess that was a spike.... I saw today at Smart and Final they had them for around 2.99. Which is still fiftye cents above what they were before the big jump.

The regular stores still have them 3.99

Normally I would have paid 3.99 for a big carton of 18.

California is such a bizzar place to live.

deb


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## perchiegirl

seminolewind said:


> that's really gross. How did you end up with a house like that? I feel that rats are a continuing maintenance. Keep food locked up and bait stations out.


Did it myself. and did all the things one is not supposed to do.

Fed my dogs outside and left the food out
let things pile up on the outside of the house
left doors open at night
It was along list...

So when you ask what to do I know what I should have done and give that as an example. nOt proud of it for sure.

deb


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## Alaskan

Best way to learn though.... Less likely to forget the lessons learned.  

Story of my life.


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## perchiegirl

Alaskan said:


> Best way to learn though.... Less likely to forget the lessons learned.
> 
> Story of my life.


Yuuuuupp.......


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