# Wormers



## casportpony

Thought some of you might be interested in some of the info I've found.

From Farad:
http://www.usfarad.org/drug-wdi-faqs.html

*Fenbendazole*
Fenbendazole is approved as an oral suspension for laying hens in the United Kingdom for treatment of gastro-intestinal nematodes at a dose of 1mg/kg/bw for 5 days and has a zero day egg and six day meat withdrawal. In the US, since there is no tolerance, this withdrawal needs to be extended. Submit a withdrawal request to FARAD. 
* 
Piperazine*
There is one study looking at piperazine residues in the eggs of treated hens. Piperazine is approved for use in laying hens in Australia and Canada at doses ranging from 130 to 200mg/kg/body weight one time and a zero day egg and meat withdrawal. Because of the lack of a tolerance in the US, FARAD recommends a 17 day egg withdrawal for piperazine used at broiler label doses in laying hens.

*Ivermectin*
There are limited studies available in the literature on the depletion of ivermectin residues from eggs. Given the limited studies and data available, FARAD cannot provide a blanket withdrawal interval recommendation and individuals are requested to submit a withdrawal interval request to FARAD. Submit a withdrawal request to FARAD. 

-Kathy


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## seminole wind

Interesting. Why do they consider Ivermectin? I thought it didn't work well in chickens?


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Interesting. Why do they consider Ivermectin? I thought it didn't work well in chickens?


Some studies say it doesn't work, but there are many that still insist on using it, including vets that say they have done before and after fecals that show it's efficacy. One such vet says that she uses 0.3 mg/kg.

Seen lots of necropsy pictures from those that think it works, so I'm pretty convinced that it's useless, though I am in the process of doing an experiment with it (insert mad scientist laugh here).

In large amounts it will treat some worms, but I wouldn't ever recommend giving as much as it would take. I will find the study that shows that.


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## robin416

A year or so ago I did find a study that showed wormer residue in eggs. I'm fairly certain it was piperazine but it's been long enough now that I don't remember if that was the one found or not. 

My vet was one of those that said using Ivermectin for internal parasites does not work with other species. Because of what she told me I decided not to question it and didn't count on it taking care of internal parasites. But it does work on external.


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## casportpony

robin416 said:


> A year or so ago I did find a study that showed wormer residue in eggs. I'm fairly certain it was piperazine but it's been long enough now that I don't remember if that was the one found or not.
> 
> My vet was one of those that said using Ivermectin for internal parasites does not work with other species. Because of what she told me I decided not to question it and didn't count on it taking care of internal parasites. But it does work on external.


At the recommended dose of 0.2-0.4 mg/kg, it did *not* treat feather lice when I tried it, and I gave it several ways to several birds, but it did treat them when I gave a much higher dose. Yesterday I gave a peacock 1.5 mg/kg orally for his lice. Will report later if they're still there or not.


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## casportpony

This link has some interesting info on wormers and antibiotics, but I have founds some errors on the FARAD site, so I wouldn't trust it, lol.
https://vet.osu.edu/sites/vet.osu.e...ng the treatment of backyard poultry 2015.pdf


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## robin416

I was referring to topical Ivermectin. 

I'm unfamiliar with oral unless you're referring to horse wormer. All I ever used on mine was topical or injection.


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## casportpony

robin416 said:


> I was referring to topical Ivermectin.
> 
> I'm unfamiliar with oral unless you're referring to horse wormer. All I ever used on mine was topical or injection.


I tried it the pour on, the injectable and the oral. At the recommended dose, none worked.


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## robin416

Thinking differently, makes me think that since feather mites are not biting the bird then it stands to reason it can't work no matter what you use. I've used Ivermectin from the get go for the more common mites and have seen it work every time. It even cleared up the scaly leg mites on my old rooster.


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## casportpony

Well I just checked him and could not find a single bug, so at 1.5 mg/kg, it worked on this bird. This type of lice likes to hang out in the ears of peafowl, so it's very easy to check for. Need to try a few more.

Just to be clear, I am 100% sure that they are lice, not mites.


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## dawg53

casportpony said:


> At the recommended dose of 0.2-0.4 mg/kg, it did *not* treat feather lice when I tried it, and I gave it several ways to several birds, but it did treat them when I gave a much higher dose. Yesterday I gave a peacock 1.5 mg/kg orally for his lice. Will report later if they're still there or not.


That's because feather lice dont suck blood to get the ivermectin in them to kill them. Northern fowl mites are resistant to ivermectin.
You're absolutely right about ivermectin being ineffective as a poultry wormer...from personal experience as well as studies, including necropsy pics of birds infested with worms after using ivermectin.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> That's because feather lice dont suck blood to get the ivermectin in them to kill them. Northern fowl mites are resistant to ivermectin.
> You're absolutely right about ivermectin being ineffective as a poultry wormer...from personal experience as well as studies, including necropsy pics of birds infested with worms after using ivermectin.


What will you think if I treat 10 more birds with lice at 1.5 mg/kg and report back that the lice are gone? Need to find some with lice on their vents. Pretty sure it's gonna work for the lice on the head, not so sure about the ones that live by the vent.


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## casportpony

So I just found three with lice on their vents. Gave those three ivermectin at 1.5 mg/kg orally. Will check tomorrow.


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## dawg53

casportpony said:


> What will you think if I treat 10 more birds with lice at 1.5 mg/kg and report back that the lice are gone? Need to find some with lice on their vents. Pretty sure it's gonna work for the lice on the head, not so sure about the ones that live by the vent.


You'd be better off using liquid permethrin.


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## dawg53

casportpony said:


> What will you think if I treat 10 more birds with lice at 1.5 mg/kg and report back that the lice are gone? Need to find some with lice on their vents. Pretty sure it's gonna work for the lice on the head, not so sure about the ones that live by the vent.


I would also think you have a management problem and need to address it. Poultry lice dont have the ability to bite and suck blood.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> I would also think you have a management problem and need to address it. Poultry lice dont have the ability to bite and suck blood.


I know they don't suck blood, but the do drink from the eyes and vent. As for a management problem... not much more I can do about their pens, and the ones that free range and roost in the trees? Can't do anything for them.

I don't know what to tell you, except that the preliminary results on the one peacock say that ivermectin might work on the lice that peafowl get.


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## casportpony

FWIW, I've been arguing with the peafowl folks for years saying it won't work at the recommended doses, but they give quite a bit more than that, so maybe that's why it works for them.


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## dawg53

casportpony said:


> I know they don't suck blood, but the do drink from the eyes and vent. As for a management problem... not much more I can do about their pens, and the ones that free range and roost in the trees? Can't do anything for them.
> 
> I don't know what to tell you, except that the preliminary results on the one peacock say that ivermectin might work on the lice that peafowl get.


The liquids or moisture they feed off of around the eyes and vent are just that; liquids/moisture, not blood. That's where the ivermectin stays...in the blood. How do you know the ones that free range and stay in the trees have lice? Have you cleaned and treated coops/pens with dusts or liquids? 
If you're going to treat your birds with something, do it with something that positively works and not high doses of a questionable product that may or may work and not cause possible organ damage.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> The liquids or moisture they feed off of around the eyes and vent are just that; liquids/moisture, not blood. That's where the ivermectin stays...in the blood. How do you know the ones that free range and stay in the trees have lice? Have you cleaned and treated coops/pens with dusts or liquids?
> If you're going to treat your birds with something, do it with something that positively works and not high doses of a questionable product that may or may work and not cause possible organ damage.


I know some of the free rangers have lice because I can catch them.  FWIW, I think the amount of ivermectin I'm giving is less than what you give when you give when you use the Zimecterin Gold to treat tapes.


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## dawg53

casportpony said:


> I know some of the free rangers have lice because I can catch them.  FWIW, I think the amount of ivermectin I'm giving is less than what you give when you give when you use the Zimecterin Gold to treat tapes.


The pea sized dose of ivermectin in z-gold paste doesnt really do anything. Pastes are not easily absorbed into the poultry bloodstream and are excreted. Liquids are more easily absorbed, but there is still an amount that is excreted due to poultry high metabolism rate. That shows you how excellent effectiveness a small dose of the praziquantel (w/ higher percentage) is against tapes in poultry. Our favorite wormers fenbendazole and albendazole (all the 'zoles') are good for no more than a week at the most, then birds are subject to reinfection. 
I prefer to use an effective product without guesswork to hit them hard and fast whether it's internal or external parasites to prevent weakened immune systems.
Good luck with your experiment.


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## casportpony

Just wanted you to know that I wasn't giving more ivermectin than what you give when you give Zimecterin Gold. Should also let you know that the ivermectin I gave was paste, not the 1%.


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## casportpony

Results are in, but you aren't gonna believe them...









Peacock and large rooster got medium sized pea blobs, smaller hens got the small pea blob. As of an hour ago, all live lice are gone.

I'll see if I can find more test subjects and see if the results are the same.


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## MikeA_15

Wormout tabs for pigeons are around $30 a bottle containing 100 tabs of Praziquantel and Oxfendazole which is safe for chickens. That will wipe out all worms. which infect poultry including tapes. I prefer tabs to other forms such as pastes, water dispersibles, feed additives, or liquid suspensions orally with a syringe.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> Wormout tabs for pigeons are around $30 a bottle containing 100 tabs of Praziquantel and Oxfendazole which is safe for chickens. That will wipe out all worms. which infect poultry including tapes. I prefer tabs to other forms such as pastes, water dispersibles, feed additives, or liquid suspensions orally with a syringe.


Pills are good!


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## nannypattyrn

Who carries the Wormout tablets?


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## casportpony

nannypattyrn said:


> Who carries the Wormout tablets?


This place has them:
http://www.thebirdcottage.com/s-pigeonwormoutplus.asp


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## casportpony

This is the liquid version of the pills that Mike posted about:
http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/worm_out.html


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## nannypattyrn

Thank you!


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## casportpony

*Water soluble Safeguard*
Safe-Guard AquaSol - fenbendazole 200 mg/ml
http://www.merck-animal-health-usa....rd_AquaSol-_Product-_Label-__tcm96-185507.pdf


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> *Water soluble Safeguard*
> Safe-Guard AquaSol - fenbendazole 200 mg/ml
> http://www.merck-animal-health-usa....rd_AquaSol-_Product-_Label-__tcm96-185507.pdf


That's great. I like the idea of water dispersibles, but they work best when weather is warm and birds drink enough.


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## dawg53

Right Mike. People who have birds in cooler climates may not want to use water dispersible wormers. Even in warm or hot temps, birds that have questionable health may not drink enough of the mixture to be effective or may not drink it at all, including wormers in feed.
It is true that liquid wormers given orally to each chicken via needleless syringe are absorbed quicker into the bloodstream. No guessing if they were properly wormed. The same is true when giving antibiotics, orally is best to each infected chicken. The only thing quicker is by injection.


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## nannypattyrn

How do you a chicken a tablet? Are they something they will peck up naturally?


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> That's great. I like the idea of water dispersibles, but they work best when weather is warm and birds drink enough.


It's also very expensive, but for those that really want to worm this way, it's better than putting the oral suspension in water.


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## casportpony

nannypattyrn said:


> How do you a chicken a tablet? Are they something they will peck up naturally?


Catch chicken, open beak, insert pill. Personally, I think it's easier to give the liquid.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> Right Mike. People who have birds in cooler climates may not want to use water dispersible wormers. Even in warm or hot temps, birds that have questionable health may not drink enough of the mixture to be effective or may not drink it at all, including wormers in feed.
> It is true that liquid wormers given orally to each chicken via needleless syringe are absorbed quicker into the bloodstream. No guessing if they were properly wormed. The same is true when giving antibiotics, orally is best to each infected chicken. The only thing quicker is by injection.


Some peafowl breeders asked me to find them a way to use wormers in water, so that's what I did. Some of these breeders are in their 70's now and find it pretty difficult and dangerous to catch and worm peafowl. Mine are pretty tame, so it's much safer, but even tame, they are still harder to deal with than chickens.


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## dawg53

casportpony said:


> Some peafowl breeders asked me to find them a way to use wormers in water, so that's what I did. Some of these breeders are in their 70's now and find it pretty difficult and dangerous to catch and worm peafowl. Mine are pretty tame, so it's much safer, but even tame, they are still harder to deal with than chickens.


Yeah, I can understand that would be a real issue with older folks and bigger birds. Liquid pyrantel pamoate can be mixed in feed. I have no idea what the dosage would be, I just know it can be mixed in feed. If the peafowl can be fed a treated ration individually, that should work perfectly. Fenbendazole pellets can be done that way too.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> Yeah, I can understand that would be a real issue with older folks and bigger birds. Liquid pyrantel pamoate can be mixed in feed. I have no idea what the dosage would be, I just know it can be mixed in feed. If the peafowl can be fed a treated ration individually, that should work perfectly. Fenbendazole pellets can be done that way too.


Some of the breeders mix fenbendazole or albendazole suspension in the feed, but even then, peafowl are picky eaters, so it's hard to get it done that way.


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## dawg53

Glad I got chickens heheheh!


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> Glad I got chickens heheheh!


I dread having to catch some of my peas!


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> I dread having to catch some of my peas!


My family had Peas when I was a kid. My folks have 6 Peas now and they stay around the house and always want to come inside. They look at them through the skylights, lol. They are beautiful but harder to manage than chickens when it comes to handling.


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## seminole wind

Do they catch better at night?


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> My family had Peas when I was a kid. My folks have 6 Peas now and they stay around the house and always want to come inside. They look at them through the skylights, lol. They are beautiful but harder to manage than chickens when it comes to handling.


I have scars and torn clothing from handling mine, lol.


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Do they catch better at night?


 Not really.  Most of mine are fairly tame, but none like being handled. Hens and cocks have spurs, and they are really strong!


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## casportpony

More on the water soluble fenbendazole:

This applies to both Safeguard and Panacur water soluble products


















Source: http://fs-1.5mpublishing.com/images/MSD/PDF/PAP PBulletin v8c FINAL.pdf


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## MikeA_15

I've been looking for Pyrantel tabs and remember using a much higher dose (50 mg) for a 4-5 lb hen in the past than the amounts contained in each tab of Mediworm brand:
http://www.jedds.com/shop/mediworm-tablets-100-ct-medpet/
Is my memory that bad or do I need some updated info on dosages for Pyrantel?


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## seminole wind

Well, I bought this wormer from Australia , I'm pretty sure it's Levamisole. Well I mixed it according to the poultry instructions, made 2 gallons up and divided it up. Well, good thing I tasted it because it's nasty. So I had to run back in for a bottle of Coke, and mixed some into each bowl, and I think it tastes okay now. But, no more pour in the water stuff. Not like I've tasted toilet bowl cleaner, but that's what it probably tastes like.


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Well, I bought this wormer from Australia , I'm pretty sure it's Levamisole. Well I mixed it according to the poultry instructions, made 2 gallons up and divided it up. Well, good thing I tasted it because it's nasty. So I had to run back in for a bottle of Coke, and mixed some into each bowl, and I think it tastes okay now. But, no more pour in the water stuff. Not like I've tasted toilet bowl cleaner, but that's what it probably tastes like.


What's it called?


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## MikeA_15

Here's a neat old ad for a phenothiazine wormer:


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## dawg53

Couldnt have said it better. "Worms poison layers."


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## seminole wind

Michael that's precious!


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## MikeA_15

seminolewind said:


> Michael that's precious!


I don't know. That big worm in the commercial is scaring that little hen, lol.


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## MikeA_15

Here are some very clear diagrams in this PDF showing the result of Histomoniasis caused by cecal worms:
http://www.ava.org.af/books/Blackhead.pdf


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> Here are some very clear diagrams in this PDF showing the result of Histomoniasis caused by cecal worms:
> http://www.ava.org.af/books/Blackhead.pdf


Guess I should find some of my necropsy pictures...


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> I've been looking for Pyrantel tabs and remember using a much higher dose (50 mg) for a 4-5 lb hen in the past than the amounts contained in each tab of Mediworm brand:
> http://www.jedds.com/shop/mediworm-tablets-100-ct-medpet/
> Is my memory that bad or do I need some updated info on dosages for Pyrantel?


that says one pill per pigeon... My pigeons weigh 300-500 grams.


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> that says one pill per pigeon... My pigeons weigh 300-500 grams.


Yeah. Very often the directions differ from outfits selling them than when you get the label instruction. From what I've read since that post was around 10 mg for a 4-5 lb hen. Safe enough for me. Medpet and Vetafarm are reputable companies though. This is why outfits like Hakes' and others annoy me.


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## seminole wind

casportpony said:


> that says one pill per pigeon... My pigeons weigh 300-500 grams.


There's a member named Leghorners2016 who asks a lot of pigeon questions. Maybe you can help him??


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> There's a member named Leghorners2016 who asks a lot of pigeon questions. Maybe you can help him??


What threads?


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## Nm156

http://www.chickenforum.com/f36/pigeons-days-before-releasing-them-10636/


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> Here are some very clear diagrams in this PDF showing the result of Histomoniasis caused by cecal worms:
> http://www.ava.org.af/books/Blackhead.pdf


This one picture sums it all up for me:


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## MikeA_15

The circular sores on the liver of a chicken should be concave. If they are convex (raised up) then it is not Blackhead.


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## casportpony

Liver from bird #1








Cecal pouch from bird #1


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## casportpony

Liver from bird #2








Cecal pouch from bird #2


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## MikeA_15

I'll never understand why many publications and avian sites downplay the damage caused by cecal worms. Those pics show the cecal pouches are beyond the inflammation stage and lack structure. You see how thin they are... and grey? Cecal worms are bad as the rest of them.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> I'll never understand why many publications and avian sites downplay the damage caused by cecal worms. Those pics show the cecal pouches are beyond the inflammation stage and lack structure. You see how thin they are... and grey? Cecal worms are bad as the rest of them.


They were actually thickened and lined with pus. Cecal worms are bad news.

Here's another:


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## casportpony

This is one that was treated with ivermectin:


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> This is one that was treated with ivermectin:


That last pic looks like a Chinese egg roll.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> That last pic looks like a Chinese egg roll.


Last year I had a peahen get sick and about two weeks into treatment she passed two "cecal cores".


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## seminole wind

Ewwwww! 

What are those spots on the liver?


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## MikeA_15

seminolewind said:


> Ewwwww!
> 
> What are those spots on the liver?


That is damage from the protozoa. Here's a vid of the culprit:


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> That is damage from the protozoa. Here's a vid of the culprit:


Intersting... even though I have personally necropsied 3 with blackhead, I have not seen any cecal worms, and the times I've had fecals done before UC Davis necropsies, they were negative. Not trying to make a point, just thought it was interesting.

Thanks for posting the video.


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> Intersting... even though I have personally necropsied 3 with blackhead, I have not seen any cecal worms, and the times I've had fecals done before UC Davis necropsies, they were negative. Not trying to make a point, just thought it was interesting.
> 
> Thanks for posting the video.


Well, most often they seem to be the culprit. But I also know the eggs of the cecal worm can contain the protozoa, other vectors can be flies.


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## chickenqueen

OMG!!! I didn't even know chickens got worms until seeing one in poop 2-3 yrs ago.I used Wazine(sp?) and never thought much more about it.I now wonder how many died because of worms and my ignorance.But no more since finding this site.I'm due to worm again but everybody is molting so I have to wait On the other hand,I put the 11 week olds out and was wondering when to worm them and how much Valbazen to give them.They are average size EE's,Cochins,Brahmas and Wyandottes.


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## casportpony

chickenqueen said:


> OMG!!! I didn't even know chickens got worms until seeing one in poop 2-3 yrs ago.I used Wazine(sp?) and never thought much more about it.I now wonder how many died because of worms and my ignorance.But no more since finding this site.I'm due to worm again but everybody is molting so I have to wait On the other hand,I put the 11 week olds out and was wondering when to worm them and how much Valbazen to give them.They are average size EE's,Cochins,Brahmas and Wyandottes.


Average size for their breed? Cochins and Brahmas tend to be quite large, like in the +8 pound range. If they are big like that, they would get 3/4 cc Valbazen. Anything in the 5-6 pound range would get 1/2 cc.


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## chickenqueen

The ones I'm asking about aren't adults.These are 11 week old juveniles,maybe a pound at the most.


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## MikeA_15

chickenqueen said:


> The ones I'm asking about aren't adults.These are 11 week old juveniles,maybe a pound at the most.


.25 cc is fine for a Bantam or 11 week old LF. 
Squirt .25 cc on a small piece of bread and give each one an Albendazole sandwich.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> .25 cc is fine for a Bantam or 11 week old LF.
> Squirt .25 cc on a small piece of bread and give each one an Albendazole sandwich.


That much? For a 1 pound bird that works out to 65 mg/kg, which is more than 3x what people usually give. I'm sure it's safe, but it's that same as giving an adult 1.625 ml.


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## dawg53

1/4cc is fine for small fowl including 11 week olds. I've given 1/4cc to 6 week olds. Valbazen is very safe, like safeguard.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> 1/4cc is fine for small fowl including 11 week olds. I've given 1/4cc to 6 week olds. Valbazen is very safe, like safeguard.


I seem to recall one of you giving me *tons* of grief when I suggested giving oxfendazole at twice the recommended dose. How is this any different?


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## dawg53

casportpony said:


> I seem to recall one of you giving me *tons* of grief when I suggested giving oxfendazole at twice the recommended dose. How is this any different?


I've never used oxfendazole. Perhaps it was ivermectin you were thinking of!!!


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> I've never used oxfendazole. Perhaps it was ivermectin you were thinking of!!!


One or both of you gave me grief about both oxfendazole and ivermectin.


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> That much? For a 1 pound bird that works out to 65 mg/kg, which is more than 3x what people usually give. I'm sure it's safe, but it's that same as giving an adult 1.625 ml.


Kathy,
If each 1 ml/cc of Valbazen has 113.6 mg of Albendazole, .25 ml/cc is around 28.4 mg of Albendazole. That is surely safe for a 1 lb pullet/cockerel. I've used the dosage on 4-5 month old LF with no problems many times.

I never gave you grief about Oxfendazole. We did have a difference of opinion regarding Ivermectin which I regarded as worthless for ectoparasites or endoparasites and unhealthy for birds since the amounts needed for efficacy are toxic to birds.

P.S. Kathy
My memory isn't great but I always try to be accurate. I can't remember what the measurement of Corid powder is to individually dose a 3-4 lb hen, so I'd have to ask you.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> Kathy,
> If each 1 ml/cc of Valbazen has 113.6 mg of Albendazole, .25 ml/cc is around 28.4 mg of Albendazole. That is surely safe for a 1 lb pullet/cockerel. I've used the dosage on 4-5 month old LF with no problems many times.
> 
> I never gave you grief about Oxfendazole. We did have a difference of opinion regarding Ivermectin which I regarded as worthless for ectoparasites or endoparasites and unhealthy for birds since the amounts needed for efficacy are toxic to birds.
> 
> P.S. Kathy
> My memory isn't great but I always try to be accurate. I can't remember what the measurement of Corid powder is to individually dose a 3-4 lb hen, so I'd have to ask you.


This is the post:







5.6 tablets is only twice the 10 mg/kg dose. Maybe I took your post the wrong way, but to me it felt like you were giving me grief for suggesting giving only twice the recommended dose.


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## casportpony

And then there was this:


MikeA_15 said:


> *I have researched it and it is best to follow veterinary recommendations of 10mg per 2.2 lbs of bird with oxfendazole. *I wouldn't compare it to ivermectin. I don't use ivermectin for birds and neither should anyone.
> 1. It isn't effective for use as an anthelmintic in avian species.
> 2. It isn't effective against mites or lice on avian species.
> 3. The amount used in order to achieve the results desired would cause death to the bird.
> I'm sure someone will chime in claiming how it is recommended by all sorts of sales people from pigeon shops to poultry supply houses, and what great results they've had using it because their birds have no worms or mites. I know it is a load of bull by experimenting with it myself and raising birds for 30+ years.


Isn't the recommended albendazole dose 20 mg/kg? If so, why would you suggest giving it at 65 mg/kg when you seemed to think that oxfendazole should only be given at the recommended dose?

Valbazen @20 mg/kg = 0.08 ml per pound (1 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0.08 ml)


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> This is the post:
> View attachment 20470
> 
> 5.6 tablets is only twice the 10 mg/kg dose. Maybe I took your post the wrong way, but to me it felt like you were giving me grief for suggesting giving only twice the recommended dose.


Right. That was a question, not giving you grief  Remember the different labels and dosages for tabs of the same brand? I think you posted another where there were 2 or 3 different dosage levels for pigeons, then Bantams, etc. Vetafarm used to just make one dosage labeled for pigeons when I used it.


----------



## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> And then there was this:
> 
> Isn't the recommended albendazole dose 20 mg/kg? If so, why would you suggest giving it at 65 mg/kg when you seemed to think that oxfendazole should only be given at the recommended dose?
> 
> Valbazen @20 mg/kg = 0.08 ml per pound (1 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0.08 ml)


That was on the subject of Oxfendazole in that particular post you listed, not Albendazole. Like I stated 28.4 mg Albendazole is fine for 1 lb bird. I know. I've used it many times.
http://japr.oxfordjournals.org/content/16/3/392.abstract


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> Kathy,
> If each 1 ml/cc of Valbazen has 113.6 mg of Albendazole, .25 ml/cc is around 28.4 mg of Albendazole. That is surely safe for a 1 lb pullet/cockerel. I've used the dosage on 4-5 month old LF with no problems many times.
> 
> I never gave you grief about Oxfendazole. We did have a difference of opinion regarding Ivermectin which I regarded as worthless for ectoparasites or endoparasites and unhealthy for birds since the amounts needed for efficacy are toxic to birds.
> 
> P.S. Kathy
> My memory isn't great but I always try to be accurate. I can't remember what the measurement of Corid powder is to individually dose a 3-4 lb hen, so I'd have to ask you.


FYI, ivermectin at 1.5 mg/kg is not toxic to poultry and it will treat poultry lice. Think about it... Think of all of those people that have given their birds a pea size amount of Zimectrin Gold. When those people give a pea size amount to a 5 pound hen they are giving ~2 mg/kg, and that amount will treat lice, I guarantee it. So far I've tried it on 10 or more and it's worked on each one. Can't comment on if it works on mites, 'cause I haven't seen any mites.

I understand that you don't want to use it on your birds, but many people still will. Personally, I'd rather give a little paste orally than dust a bird.


----------



## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> That was on the subject of Oxfendazole in that particular post you listed, not Albendazole. Like I stated 28.4 mg Albendazole is fine for 1 lb bird. I know. I've used it many times.
> http://japr.oxfordjournals.org/content/16/3/392.abstract


So you're saying it's okay do give over 3x of albendazole, but not 2x of oxfendazole?


----------



## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> Right. That was a question, not giving you grief  Remember the different labels and dosages for tabs of the same brand? I think you posted another where there were 2 or 3 different dosage levels for pigeons, then Bantams, etc. Vetafarm used to just make one dosage labeled for pigeons when I used it.


The two posts from you that day gave me the impression that you were giving me grief for suggesting that 5.6 tablets were needed to get the correct amount of praziquantel for a 5 pound chicken. If I misunderstood you, I apologize.


----------



## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> So you're saying it's okay do give over 3x of albendazole, but not 2x of oxfendazole?


.25 cc Valbazen, which is 28.4 mg Albendazole has been a dosage used by many people for a number of years on Bantams 1 lb or less. Albendazole is quite safe, where Oxfendazole and available info on it for use in poultry, is not familiar. That is why I'd recommend to be careful with Oxfendazole. Now, if chickenqueen hasn't run away from this thread, she could dose .12 cc/ml if that gives her peace of mind. However if you look at the dosages used in the trial, you will see that 100% levels of most worm species are not destroyed (with the exception of A.galli larva and adults) by the 2006 Arkansas study at 20 mg Albendazole per kg (2.2 lbs.) of bird weight. I've used 30 mg tabs of Albendazole on Bantams less than 1 lb and there were no side affects resulting from it.


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> The two posts from you that day gave me the impression that you were giving me grief for suggesting that 5.6 tablets were needed to get the correct amount of praziquantel for a 5 pound chicken. If I misunderstood you, I apologize.


No. I was merely trying to figure it out myself due the different product of the same brand. No need to be defensive with me. Just as you did a kind favor for me, if you ever need some help and I have something that can help your birds, I'll send it your way. You remember all the troublemakers and crazy people we ran into on another forum? I don't think we will have that problem here.

P.S. If you are interested in some Peachicks, let me know. My folks had a hatch last week.


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## chickenqueen

Thanx everybody!Didn't mean to cause any arguments.


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## casportpony

chickenqueen said:


> Thanx everybody!Didn't mean to cause any arguments.


Hey, don't worry about it. 

This is the formula for calculating the most common Valbazen dose of 20 mg/kg:
Weight of bird in pounds, divide by 2.2 (converts pounds to kg), times 20 mg per kg, divide by 113.6 (mg of albendazole per one ml) = amount to give in ml or cc.

At 11 weeks, your birds should be in the 1-2 pound range.

1/4 pound - 0.25 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0.02 ml
1/2 pound - 0.5 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0.04 ml
*1 pounds - 1 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0.08 ml
2 pounds - 2 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0.16 ml*
3 pounds - 3 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0.24 ml
4 pounds - 4 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0.32 ml
5 pounds - 5 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0.4 ml
6 pounds - 6 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0.48 ml
7 pounds - 7 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0.56 ml
8 pounds - 8 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0.64 ml
9 pounds - 9 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0. 72 ml
10 pounds - 10 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0.8 ml

Rounding up a little is fine.


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## MikeA_15

If you want to get rid of tapes and 100% of other species of worms, you'd best take the dose up to the 3 lb dose range. Now with Ivermectin and Eprinomectin, I've used both in the past and saw zero results with lice or mites. I've successfully used premise treatment regiments and haven't seen a mite or louse on birds since 2007. So there's 9 years of no macrocyclic lactones. I don't use dusts either. I use sprays.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> *If you want to get rid of tapes and 100% of other species of worms, you'd best take the dose up to the 3 lb dose range. *Now with Ivermectin and Eprinomectin, I've used both in the past and saw zero results with lice or mites. I've successfully used premise treatment regiments and haven't seen a mite or louse on birds since 2007. So there's 9 years of no macrocyclic lactones. I don't use dusts either. I use sprays.


Are you saying to increase from 20 mg/kg to 60 mg/kg?


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> Are you saying to increase from 20 mg/kg to 60 mg/kg?


No. If there is 113.6 mg Albendazole in 1 ml/cc of Valbazen, then one quarter (.25 cc) of that would be 28.4 mg Albendazole. That is safe.
You know Trifen Avicola caplets are 70 mg Albendazole a piece? Here is their label instructions translated from Spanish from Aranda Laboratories:

_Indications: For gastroentéricos infestations caused by parasites and lung including nematodes and Tapeworms (Heterakis gallinae, and H. gallinarum, Raillietina spp., Ascaridia galli, Syngamus trachea and Capillaria obsignata)._

_Dose: young chickens: 1 tablet per day for three days. _
_Chickens over 12 weeks: 2 tablets per day for three days. _
_Chickens: 3 tablets per day for three days. _
_Turkeys players or pavas: 4 tablets a day for 3 days. At the discretion of the veterinary doctor you can repeat dose to 30 days after the first treatment._

Now why is this recommended, and I've used it with no compromise to the health of my birds?


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## seminole wind

chickenqueen said:


> The ones I'm asking about aren't adults.These are 11 week old juveniles,maybe a pound at the most.


I am seriously not sure about worming anything under 4 months old.

Isn't worming with Valbazen twice, 10 days apart? I didn't do the 2nd dose and lost a silkie to capillaria. a few years ago.


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## chickenqueen

Should I wait a month before worming when they are 4 months old?


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## casportpony

chickenqueen said:


> Should I wait a month before worming when they are 4 months old?


This one was only three months old:


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> No. If there is 113.6 mg Albendazole in 1 ml/cc of Valbazen, then one quarter (.25 cc) of that would be 28.4 mg Albendazole. That is safe.
> You know Trifen Avicola caplets are 70 mg Albendazole a piece? Here is their label instructions translated from Spanish from Aranda Laboratories:
> 
> _Indications: For gastroentéricos infestations caused by parasites and lung including nematodes and Tapeworms (Heterakis gallinae, and H. gallinarum, Raillietina spp., Ascaridia galli, Syngamus trachea and Capillaria obsignata)._
> 
> _Dose: young chickens: 1 tablet per day for three days. _
> _Chickens over 12 weeks: 2 tablets per day for three days. _
> _Chickens: 3 tablets per day for three days. _
> _Turkeys players or pavas: 4 tablets a day for 3 days. At the discretion of the veterinary doctor you can repeat dose to 30 days after the first treatment._
> 
> Now why is this recommended, and I've used it with no compromise to the health of my birds?


*Dose: young chickens: 1 tablet per day for three days.* By young I'll assume that they mean under twelve weeks, so maybe they weigh 2 pounds? That's 77 mg/kg.

*Chickens over 12 weeks: 2 tablets per day for three days. *
A young one this age might weigh 2.5 pounds, so that amount of 140 mg = 211 mg/kg. I don't know about everyone else, but there is no way in h3ll I would give one of mine that much albendazole.

*Chickens: 3 tablets per day for three days*
That is 210 mg, and if given to a 5 pound chicken that's 92 mg/kg, which still seems like way too much to me.

*Turkeys players or pavas: 4 tablets a day for 3 days. At the discretion of the veterinary doctor you can repeat dose to 30 days after the first treatment.*Pavas are peafowl, and a small adult hen weighs 6.6 pounds. 4 tablets = 280 mg, which is 93 mg/kg.

IMO, some of those amounts seem like way too much, especially when given three days in a row.

How hard is it to guess the weight of a bird and dose it according to it's weight? Sure seems much safer than giving such a large amount.


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> I am seriously not sure about worming anything under 4 months old.
> 
> Isn't worming with Valbazen twice, 10 days apart? I didn't do the 2nd dose and lost a silkie to capillaria. a few years ago.


Yes, you need to repeat in ten days.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> If you want to get rid of tapes and 100% of other species of worms, you'd best take the dose up to the 3 lb dose range. Now with Ivermectin and Eprinomectin, I've used both in the past and saw zero results with lice or mites. I've successfully used premise treatment regiments and haven't seen a mite or louse on birds since 2007. So there's 9 years of no macrocyclic lactones. I don't use dusts either. I use sprays.


Works for me and all the peafowl people I know.


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## casportpony

I thought this was interesting:

http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Rep...es-Nematode-Parasites-Treatment-Fenbendazole/ Reptiles Nematode Parasites Treatment: Fenbendazole BY ROGER J. KLINGENBERG

Nematodes are among the most common parasites diagnosed in reptiles, with more than five hundred reptile forms identified. Larval forms migrate through the body. Adult nematodes are typically thought of as worms. Because of their ubiquitous nature, several drugs have been adapted to treat them.

Fenbendazole is a member of the benzimidazole group of anthelmintics, which also includes thiabendazole (TBZ), mebendazole (Telmin), and albendazole (Valbazen). This group of anthelmintics has been widely used in veterinary medicine because of their effect not only on mature worms but also on larval and even encysted stages. In addition to killing mature worms, the benzimidazoles exert an ovicidal effect, immediately decreasing egg production by effectively sterilizing the worm.

Although literally hundreds of benzimidazole derivatives have been formulated, fenbendazole is easily the drug of choice among the variations. While all medications in this group are considered to be very safe, fenbendazole is the safest of all of them. It was difficult to establish an LD50 (lethal dose at which 50 percent of test population will perish) in rodents. Even a dose greater than ten thousand times a normal dose would not consistently kill mice or rats. In addition to its excellent safety record, fenbendazole does not cause birth defects, unlike most of the other drugs of this group. The only contraindications for the use of fenbendazole are its uses in horses to be used for food and in lactating cattle. There are no proven reptile contraindications or known drug interactions.

Fenbendazole functions by inhibiting the uptake of glucose (sugar) in the nematode parasite. This block of glucose uptake is slow, so fenbendazole works better when given over a course of several days than in single or multiple doses that are given at spaced time intervals. Fenbendazole is the drug of choice for nematode parasites and is given orally at 25-50 mg/kg once daily for three to five days and then repeated in ten days, if warranted. If used for giardia infections, it should be given at 50 mg/kg daily for five days.

Upon oral administration, fenbendazole is minimally metabolized, and the majority of the drug is excreted unchanged. This helps explain why the cloacal administration of fenbendazole (Innis 1995) is effective only with parasites found in the cloaca and will do nothing for parasites in the remainder of the GI tract. In his report, Innis describes how he initially gave a tortoise fenbendazole at 100 mg/kg orally once and then again two weeks later, and the pinworms were not eliminated. He reported better results with dosing the fenbendazole with a syringe into the cloaca. We now know that had Innis administered the fenbendazole orally over a course of three to five days, it would have produced even better results as a result of the constant blockage of glucose uptake in the worms. In any case, it is interesting to have another route of administration because it isn't always easy to get oral fenbendazole down a tortoise for three to five days.

The technique that Innis employed was to place the tortoise in dorsal recumbency (upside down) and, with the drug inside a tuberculin (1 mL) syringe with a lubricated tip, introduce the syringe into the cloaca. Although it is beneficial to place the medication as far into the rectum as possible, care should be taken to advance no more than half of the syringe and to stop immediately if resistance is noted. Leakage is prevented by manual pressure on each side of the cloaca. Innis further reported an almost immediate expulsion of pinworms due to the enema effect. The pinworms continued to be passed for another two to three days. He also suggested using a red rubber urethral catheter in larger specimens to prevent depositing the drug into the bladder. Again, although cloacal administration of fenbendazole will produce results, it is not as effective as the oral administration because the drug's action is limited to the colon. Regardless of the route chosen for administration, the drug is best given over consecutive days, rather than in individual, spaced doses.

Some reptile veterinarians believe that albendazole is more effective in single doses than fenbendazole is. Even if single dose effectiveness is conceded, fenbendazole is preferable for several reasons. Although albendazole is considered to be safe, it is better absorbed than the other benzimidazoles are, which increases side effects with the liver and hematologic organ systems. Both drugs are more effective when administered daily for several days rather than in one dose, so single-dose effectiveness is a moot point. Albendazole is also teratogenic (causing birth defects) and embryotoxic (causing damage or death to the embryo), which would pose an undue risk for potentially gravid animals. Finally, albendazole interacts with praziquantel (Droncit) and dexamethasone, which would limit concurrent treatment of cestodes. Fenbendazole is simply safer than albendazole.

This author has been jokingly accused of owning stock in Panacur as a result of such enthusiastic promoting of fenbendazole. So to provide a balanced argument, let's discuss some downsides of fenbendazole. As mentioned previously, the drug was implicated in the deaths of four Fea's vipers. Stein and Wynne (G. Stein and J. Wynne 1993, pers. comm.) noted that tortoises treated with fenbendazole became anorexic but regained their appetites after a few days. The author has noted that bearded dragons can go off food dramatically when put through consecutive day dosing, with the longest period of anorexia being two weeks. As bearded dragons often have both pinworms and coccidia, it is not unusual for them to be treated with both sulfadimethoxine (Albon) and fenbendazole at the same time, leading to questions about which drug could be causing the appetite to be suppressed. In any case, both drugs have caused appetite suppression when used separately, so perhaps a noncritical bearded dragon should be treated in stages to minimize appetite disruption. For bearded dragons that won't eat, force-feeding appears to kick-start most into eating again. Employ force-feeding early and continue force-feeding until the dragons feed on their own.

In some rare cases, parasites appear to be resistant to fenbendazole. In this situation, the author suggests using ivermectin, which may require more doses over time. A small study (Klingenberg 1993) demonstrated this in ball pythons. Fenbendazole eliminated nematodes in fewer doses than ivermectin did (see appendix III). Corwin (M. Corwin 1994, pers. comm.) reported that this was also true when treating nematode parasites of monitor lizards.

Excerpt from the book Understanding Reptile Parasites by Roger Klingenberg with permission from its publisher, Advanced Vivarium Systems, an imprint of BowTie Press. Purchase Understanding Reptile Parasites here.


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## casportpony

Also liked this one:

Quote:
http://www.vetsfarma.com/poultry3.html
Oxzol	DOWNLOAD BROCHURE
Latest broad spectrum anthelmintic

Formulation : 
Bolus contains Oxfendazole I.P.(Vet) 2200 mg 
Liquid contains Oxfendazole I.P.(Vet ) 2.265 % w/v

Oxfendazole is a benzimidazole anthelmintic, effective against most of the parasites of livestock & poultry.

Salient features
Oxzol is economical and effective against major endo-parasites in domestic animals.
Oxzol is ovicidal, larvicidal and wormicidal in action.
Oxzol is well tolerated by the domestic and wild animals in general and free of side effects at therapeutic doses.
Oxzol is safe in young, sick and debilitated animals.
Oxzol is safe in pregnancy at therapeutic doses.
Safety margin 10 times of therapeutic doses.
Slow absorption from gastrointestinal tract prolongs its action.

Mode of action
The drug acts on parasites by interfering with their energy - generating metabolism. Oxfendazole is inhibitor of fumerate reductase. Blockage of the fumerate reductase step inhibits generation of mitochondrial energy in the form of adenosine triphosphate (ATP). In the absence of usable energy, the parasite dies.	
Oxzol

Pharmacokinetics
The peak plasma level occurs in 6-30 hours after dosing with oxfendazole. The plasma levels are increased and anthelmintic activity is enhanced when the drug is retained in the rumen rather than passed directly into the abomasums via closure of oesophageal groove. Oxfendazole is excreted primarily through urine of monogastric animals and through faeces (65%) of ruminants

Anthelmintic spectrum
Horses - 
The drug is effective against adult form of large strongyles, small strongyles, mature Oxyuris equi, small pin worm (Probstmayria vivipara) and Trichostrongylus axeif of horses. Ascarids (Parascaris equorum) and immature Oxyuris.

Cattle and sheep
The drug is effective for lung worm infection caused by Dictyocaulus All the major gastrointestinal parasites of ruminants (Haemonchus, Ostertagia, Trchostrongylus, Marshallagia, Cooperia, Nematodirus, Bunostomum, Chabertia, Oesophagostomum, Strongyloides). The adult form of these parasites is most effectively expelled but immature stages are also eliminated. Oxfendazole is effective against whipworms.

Swine 
The drug is effective against swine ascarids (sexually mature adult forms), stomach worms (Hyostrongylus), nodular worms (Oesophagostomum) and Strongyloides. Swine lung worms (Metastrongylus)

Poultry
Ascaridia galli, Capillaria, Cecal worms (Heterakis gallinarum). Currently, there are no approved drugs for treatment of Capillaria, Tape or Cecal worms in poultry. As a result, the drug oxfendazole is used extra-label in drinking water when prescribed and monitored by a licensed veterinarian.

Ovicidal activity
Studies on the culturability of parasite eggs in feces following treatment of animals with oxfendazole suggest a strong ovicidal property.The drug has been found to be ovicidal for eggs of ruminants Trichostrongylids, swine stomach worms (Hyostrogylus) chicken ascarids and canine and human hookworms and whipworms.

Safety and toxicity
Oxfendazole is well tolerated by domestic and wild animals in general. Oxfendazole is free of side effects at therapeutic doses even when administered to young, sick or debilitated animals. In ruminants and horses oxfendazole does not cause detectable toxic effect at a single administration of 10 times the recommended dose. Sheep tolerate 20 times the therapeutic dose.

Contraindications
Oxfendazole should not be administered simultaneously with bromsalan flukicides (oxyclozanide). This combination has produced some abortions in cattle and deaths in sheep.

Dosage and administration
The drug is administered orally.
Horse 10 mg per kg b.wt. or 1 ml per 2.25 kg b.wt.
Cattle 4.5 mg per kg b.wt or 1 ml per 4.50 kg b.wt.
Sheep 5 mg per kg b.wt or 1 ml per 4.50 kg b.wt.
Swine 3 mg per kg b.wt. or 1 ml per 5.50 kg b.wt.
or
4.5 mg per kg b.wt for control of Hyostrongylus and Oesophagostomum spp.
Dog 11.3 mg per kg. b.wt. or 1 ml per 2.00 kg b.wt.
For 3 consequent days.
Poultry 10 mg per kg b.wt. or 1 ml per 2.25 kg b.wt.

Presentation
Bolus 1 bolus strip 
Liquid 15 ml, 100 ml and 500 ml.

Oxzol v/s Fenbendazole
Oxfendazole is a sulphoxide identical to the sulphoxide metabolite of fenbendazole, both are known to be anthelmintically active and metabolically interconvertible. Much of fenbendazole's anthelmintic activity is attributed to oxfendazole, the latter being more potent.

Oxzol v/s Piperazine (poultry)
Oxfendazole:The drug acts on parasites by interfering with their energy - generating metabolism. Oxfendazole is inhibitor of fumerate reductase. Blockage of the fumerate reductase step inhibits generation of mitochondrial energy in the form of adenosine triphosphate (ATP).In the absence of usable energy, the parasite dies.
Piperazine: It blocks transmission by hyperpolarizing nerve membranes at the neuromuscular junction and induces flaccid paralysis. Mature worms are more susceptible to the action of peperazine than the younger stages. In extremely heavy ascarid infections, treatment with piperazine may immobilize veritable masses of worms and cause an intestinal impaction. 
Oxfendazole: It is also effective against cecal worm Heterakis gallinarum.
Piperazine: The cecal worm (Heterakis gallinarum) apparently is not susceptible to piperazine.

References:
Oxfendazole single dose @ 4.5 mg/kg body weight is highly efficacious against strongyles in buffalo calves.
Neelesh Sharma1, Vijay Pandey2, S.K. Gupta and S.R. Upadhyay
Division of Veterinary Clinical Medicine & Jurisprudence, Faculty of Veterinary Science and Animal Husbandry, Sher-E-Kashmir University of Agricultural Sciences and Technology of Jammu.

Efficacy of oxfendazole against naturally acquired gastrointestinal nematode infestations in buffaloes in Egypt.
A 100% reduction in faecal egg counts was obtained at the 4·5 mg/kg level. 
S. A. Michael1, A. H. El Refaii1 and A. J. Higgins2
The Department of Parasitology, Animal Health Research Institute, Dokki, Cairo, Arab Republic of Egypt.
The Wellcome Foundation Ltd., Berkhamsted, Hertfordshire, UK

Oxfendazole effective in removing all developmental stages of naturally acquired Dictyocaulus viviparus from 15-week-old calves (2.5 mg/kg) and D.filaria from sheep (5.0 mg / kg). (lung worms) 
Chalmers K. New Zealand Veterinary Journal, Volume 27, Numbers 1-2,1 January 1979, pp. 8-13(6)

Efficacy of oxfendazol agaist natural infestation of nematodes and cestodes in sheep in Egypt.
A 100 per cent clearance was recorded for all parasites with the exception of T ovis which were markedly reduced in number.
SA Michael, AH Refaii, WH Mansour, MK Selim, and AJ Higgins
The Veterinary Record, Vol 104, Issue 15, 338-340
Copyright © 1979 by British Veterinary Association

Oxfendazole was 100% effective against third, fourth, early fifth, and adult stages of the Haemonchus contortus worms at dosage level 5 mg/kg and 10mg /kg body weight. 
Kistner TP, Wyse D Aust Vet J. 1978 Oct;54(10):469-70.

Anthelmintic activity of oxfendazole in pigs. 
A dose rate of 4.5 mg oxfendazole per kg body-weight give practical control of Hyostrongylus and Oesophagostomum species in pigs. 
PA Kingsbury, DT Rowlands, and JF Reid The Veterinary Record, Vol 108, Issue 1, 10-11 Copyright © 1981 by British Veterinary Association

Oxfendazole provides, for the first time, a practical, effective, inexpensive, and single-dose therapy for porcine cysticercosis. 
Armando E. Gonzales, Hector H. Garcia, Robert H. Gilman, Cesar M. Gavidia, Victor C. W. Tsang, Teresa Bernal, Nestor Falcon, Martha Romero AND Maria T. Lopez-Urbina 
Department of International Health, Johns Hopkins University School of Hygiene and Public Health, Baltimore, Maryland; Division of Parasitic Diseases, National Center for Infectious Diseases, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia Am. J. Trop. Med. Hyg., 54(4), 1996, pp. 391-394

Br Vet J. 1989 Sep-Oct;145(5):458-61.
Anticestodal action of oxfendazole on Raillietina tetragona in experimentally infected chickens.
Nurelhuda IE, Elowni EE, Hassan T.
Abstract
Oxfendazole was tested against Raillietina tetragona in experimentally infected chickens using single oral doses of 20, 10, 7.5, 5, and 2.5 mg/kg body weight. The minimal dose of the drug which produced 100% efficacy against immature worms was 10 mg/kg whereas the same effect on the mature parasite was obtained with 7.5 mg/kg. Doses lower than these significantly reduce worm burdens. The compound appears to be safe for chickens and a dose of 20 mg/kg (twice the recommended dose) produced no untoward clinical reactions.
PMID: 2790437 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Parasite. 2000 Sep;7(3):221-6.
Efficacy of oxfendazole for the treatment of giardiosis in dogs. Experiments in dog breeding kennels.
Villeneuve V, Beugnet F, Bourdoiseau G.
Abstract
Giardiosis is one of the most frequent parasites of dogs and cats. Since several years, the treatment is based on the use of metronidazole. A coproscopic study in four dog kennels was conducted to demonstrate, at a significant level, the efficacy of oxfendazole (Dolthène, Merial). At the posology of 11.3 mg/kg each day during three days (D1, D2 and D3), no dogs eliminated Giardia cysts and all dogs are clinically cured. The importance of hygienic measures is underlined. In kennels 1 and 2 where hygienic conditions were poor, dogs reexcreted cysts again after treatment. In kennels where the boxes were disinfected, no dogs, treated with 22.6 or 11.3 mg/kg, reexcreted Giardia cysts.
PMID: 11031759 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
-Kathy


----------



## seminole wind

casportpony said:


> Yes, you need to repeat in ten days.


Well I didn't know any better at the time.


----------



## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Well I didn't know any better at the time.


And with Safeguard, capillary treatment is *five* consecutive days at 50 mg/kg (0.23 ml per pound), and some vets will suggest repeating that again in 10 days. A friend of mine had a confirmed case of capillary worms and still had positive fecals at day 10, so her vet had her repeat the dose.


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## casportpony

Oxfendazole - Dose is 10 mg/kg
With the 22.5% product that is 0.02 ml per pound.
With the 9.06% product that is 0.05 ml per pound.
















*http://www.jefferspet.com/products/synanthic-bovine-dewormer-suspension*


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## casportpony

Did you all know that a single large dose of Safeguard (fenbendazole) will treat capillary worms? By large I mean 100 mg/kg (0.45 ml per pound).


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## seminole wind

Sounds good. Next time I buy.


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## casportpony

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/6868306/?i=5&from=/6743169/related
Efficacy of fenbendazole against nematodes of captive birds.
Lawrence K. Vet Rec. 1983.
Show full citation
Abstract
Fenbendazole was used to treat nematode infestations (Ascaridia species and Capillaria species) in 230 birds of six orders and 38 different species. Using a single dose of 100 mg/kg bodyweight initial treatment eliminated parasitic nematodes from 221 birds. A further course of treatment at a dose rate of 30 mg/kg daily for seven days eliminated the infestation from the remaining nine birds.


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> *Dose: young chickens: 1 tablet per day for three days.* By young I'll assume that they mean under twelve weeks, so maybe they weigh 2 pounds? That's 77 mg/kg.
> 
> *Chickens over 12 weeks: 2 tablets per day for three days. *
> A young one this age might weigh 2.5 pounds, so that amount of 140 mg = 211 mg/kg. I don't know about everyone else, but there is no way in h3ll I would give one of mine that much albendazole.
> 
> *Chickens: 3 tablets per day for three days*
> That is 210 mg, and if given to a 5 pound chicken that's 92 mg/kg, which still seems like way too much to me.
> 
> *Turkeys players or pavas: 4 tablets a day for 3 days. At the discretion of the veterinary doctor you can repeat dose to 30 days after the first treatment.*Pavas are peafowl, and a small adult hen weighs 6.6 pounds. 4 tablets = 280 mg, which is 93 mg/kg.
> 
> IMO, some of those amounts seem like way too much, especially when given three days in a row.
> 
> How hard is it to guess the weight of a bird and dose it according to it's weight? Sure seems much safer than giving such a large amount.


In the USA we use the weights and measures system, so we need to get off this kg metric stuff to simplify things for folks. It is easy to guess the weight of a bird and just as easy to round off a dose when it comes to Albendazole instead of splitting hairs. And as you can see, the recommended dosage levels from Tornel Laboratories are quite high. I thought so too at the time. I've dosed a 4-6 lb hens at 70 mg, 3 days in a row due to my own knowledge of Albendazole and there were no side effects and the hen is still alive and healthy. Fenbendazole is not as effective as Albendazole, and requires a higher dose, so I wouldn't waste time with it:
http://wordpress.uark.edu/discovery...ificially-infected-with-ascaridia-dissimilis/


----------



## MikeA_15

chickenqueen said:


> Should I wait a month before worming when they are 4 months old?


Here's what I'd do. Alleviate concerns by paying attention to their droppings. Many worms can be seen in fresh dropping, I mean just dropped, in bright light like sunlight, with a magnifying glass. Urates (the white cap on a bird's dropping will regularly appear thread-like often when they have worms. Dropping will be loose/watery or foamy. If they are eating more often and don't seem to be growing well, that is another symptom.

Coccidiosis infections exhibit much of the same symptoms. So the best thing to do is use Amprolium once a month, the same time each month, in their water for 5 days. You can use .5 tsp of Corid 20% powder or 1 tsp of Corid 9.6% solution per gallon of water. Make this the only water available for them to drink during that time. I do this until birds are around 9 months of age.

Each week use a good quality poultry vitamin-electrolyte in the water 2-3 days a week. This is also good for growth and helping to build immunity since formulated feeds are subject to oxidation which lessens the level of nutrient quality. I never saw anyone's birds benefit by using cheap feed. I know it sounds funny lurking around with a magnifying glass looking at chicken turds, but I've done it, and sure enough spotted cecal worms from 4 month old pullets in the past. The things we do for our animals, lol.


----------



## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> In the USA we use the metric system, so we need to get off this kg measurement. It is easy to guess the weight of a bird and just as easy to round off a dose when it comes to Albendazole instead of splitting hairs. And as you can see, the recommended dosage levels from Tornel Laboratories are quite high. I thought so too at the time. I've dosed a 4-6 lb hens at 70 mg, 3 days in a row due to my own knowledge of Albendazole and there were no side effects and the hen is still alive and healthy. Fenbendazole is not as effective as Albendazole, and requires a higher dose, so I wouldn't waste time with it:
> http://wordpress.uark.edu/discovery...ificially-infected-with-ascaridia-dissimilis/


Interesting study...

As for metric versus imperial, metric is *so* much easier, and almost all medications come as mg per ml or mg per gram, so why fight it?

Some people may not appreciate my anal retentiveness when it comes to calculating doses, but I'll bet that there are quite a few that do like knowing how much medication they should be giving.

This little guy could be overdosed on some medications quite easily if I was just going by what most people give bantams.


----------



## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> Here's what I'd do. Alleviate concerns by paying attention to their droppings. Many worms can be seen in fresh dropping, I mean just dropped, in bright light like sunlight, with a magnifying glass. Urates (the white cap on a bird's dropping will regularly appear thread-like often when they have worms. Dropping will be loose/watery or foamy. If they are eating more often and don't seem to be growing well, that is another symptom.
> 
> Coccidiosis infections exhibit much of the same symptoms. So the best thing to do is use Amprolium once a month, the same time each month, in their water for 5 days. You can use .5 tsp of Corid 20% powder or 1 tsp of Corid 9.6% solution per gallon of water. Make this the only water available for them to drink during that time. I do this until birds are around 9 months of age.
> 
> Each week use a good quality poultry vitamin-electrolyte in the water 2-3 days a week. This is also good for growth and helping to build immunity since formulated feeds are subject to oxidation which lessens the level of nutrient quality. I never saw anyone's birds benefit by using cheap feed. I know it sounds funny lurking around with a magnifying glass looking at chicken turds, but I've done it, and sure enough spotted cecal worms from 4 month old pullets in the past. The things we do for our animals, lol.


Sorry, here I go again...

1/2 teaspoon Corid powder = 270 mg to 300 mg
1 teaspoon Corid liquid = 480 mg

Why not give the same amount?


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> Sorry, here I go again...
> 
> 1/2 teaspoon Corid powder = 270 mg to 300 mg
> 1 teaspoon Corid liquid = 480 mg
> 
> Why not give the same amount?


Splitting hairs again I see. 9.6% is about half of 20%. You can use .5 tsp of 20%, or 1 tsp of 9.6%. It is close enough and it works as a preventative instead of treatment dose you have listed at the bottom of your post.


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## MikeA_15

That bird would be fine with .25 cc of Valbazen (28.4 mg Albendazole). Heck, you could even give one tab of Trifen Plus (30 mg Albendazole). It also contains .2 mg of Abamectin which is why I won't use it. You might prefer it though, hardy-har-har.



casportpony said:


> Interesting study...
> 
> As for metric versus imperial, metric is *so* much easier, and almost all medications come as mg per ml or mg per gram, so why fight it?
> 
> Some people may not appreciate my anal retentiveness when it comes to calculating doses, but I'll bet that there are quite a few that do like knowing how much medication they should be giving.
> 
> This little guy could be overdosed on some medications quite easily if I was just going by what most people give bantams.


----------



## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> Splitting hairs again I see. 9.6% is about half of 20%. You can use .5 tsp of 20%, or 1 tsp of 9.6%. It is close enough and it works as a preventative instead of treatment dose you have listed at the bottom of your post.


Just being anal. Again, why not give the same amount of mg? 3/4 tsp powder would be a better amount to give if you want to give 480 mg.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> That bird would be fine with .25 cc of Valbazen (28.4 mg Albendazole). Heck, you could even give one tab of Trifen Plus (30 mg Albendazole). It also contains .2 mg of Abamectin which is why I won't use it. You might prefer it though, hardy-har-har.


Sorry, but I wouldn't feel comfortable giving him that much albendazole... pills or liquid.


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## dawg53

casportpony said:


> Sorry, but I wouldn't feel comfortable giving him that much albendazole... pills or liquid.


I feel very comfortable giving a 5 or 6 week old bird .25cc albendazole. I've been doing it for years.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> I feel very comfortable giving a 5 or 6 week old bird .25cc albendazole. I've been doing it for years.


Out of my comfort zone, that's pretty close to 100 mg/kg.


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> Out of my comfort zone, that's pretty close to 100 mg/kg.


 I don't know how you arrive at that dosage. Valbazen suspension is 113.6 mg of Albendazole in 1 ml/cc. Giving .25 ml/cc would contain 28.4 mg of Albendazole.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> I don't know how you arrive at that dosage. Valbazen suspension is 113.6 mg of Albendazole in 1 ml/cc. Giving .25 ml/cc would contain 28.4 mg of Albendazole.


Easy, a 5 week old chick might way as little as 300 grams. Math looks like this:
0.3 x 100 / 113.6 = 0.26 ml

The math doesn't lie (unless I do it wrong, lol).

If you guys are comfortable giving that much, that's fine.


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## casportpony

Use my little rooster as an example.... He's only 315 grams, so 0.25 ml Valbazen is 90 mg/kg for him.

0.315 x 90 / 113.6 = 0.25 ml

You all make fun of me for doing the math, but admit it, it's a lot more medication than you thought it was, right? 

90 mg/kg of Safeguard is this:
0.315 x 90 / 100 = 0.28 ml


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## dawg53

casportpony said:


> Out of my comfort zone, that's pretty close to 100 mg/kg.


You've never used valbazen. So yeah, it would be out of your comfort zone knowing how it works and how safe it is.


----------



## dawg53

casportpony said:


> Use my little rooster as an example.... He's only 315 grams, so 0.25 ml Valbazen is 90 mg/kg for him.
> 
> 0.315 x 90 / 113.6 = 0.25 ml
> 
> You all make fun of me for doing the math, but admit it, it's a lot more medication than you thought it was, right?
> 
> 90 mg/kg of Safeguard is this:
> 0.315 x 90 / 100 = 0.28 ml


I've never made fun about your math. As a matter of fact it looks impressive. The simple truth is that experience is the best teacher. Those numbers you put up in metric measurements mean nothing to me, as well as others because way back when we wernt taught the metric system in school. Maybe some of the retired nurses on here know it, I dont know.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> You've never used valbazen. So yeah, it would be out of your comfort zone knowing how it works and how safe it is.


That has *nothing* to do with it. I'm simply pointing out the dosing discrepancies. One thread you both say to give a full sized hen 0.5 ml, which is for a 5 pound chicken is 25 mg/kg, then you you say that you give 4x that amount to young ones. Why not try to dose with a little more precision?

The math is not that hard.


----------



## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> I've never made fun about your math. As a matter of fact it looks impressive. The simple truth is that experience is the best teacher. Those numbers you put up in metric measurements mean nothing to me, as well as others because way back when we wernt taught the metric system in school. Maybe some of the retired nurses on here know it, I dont know.


It used to mean nothing to me either, but I got tired of not understanding exactly how much medication to give.

Let me use my little rooster as an example... what if you had to give him Baytril? How would you go about calculating a dose for him?


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## casportpony

The most common Baytril dose seems to be 10 mg/kg twice a day. The roo weighs 315 gram and most people have 10% Baytril (100 mg/ml), so the math is this:
0.315 x 10 / 100 = 0.03 ml

The other day I saw someone give Baytril to a tiny chick, and by tiny I mean maybe 25 grams. That poor little chick got about 0.05 ml, but the absolute most he should have been given was 20 mg/kg:
0.025 x 20 / 100 = 0.005 ml, which is almost impossible to give, but instead he got 200 mg/kg. 

Sorry if this makes your heads spin, but it's seeing people do stuff like that that makes me want to teach people how to calculate doses.


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## casportpony

For those that want to calculate doses based on weight, it's simple, but you do need to know a few things.

1) Approximate weight of bird in pounds, gram or kilograms
2) The amount that you want to give in mg/kg (milligram per kilogram)
3) The number of mg/ml (milligrams per ml). This should be listed on all properly labeled bottles.

Most of you are probably more comfortable working in pounds, so the formula is the weight of bird in pounds, divide by 2.2 (dividing pounds by 2.2 converts to kg), times the number of mg/kg that you have chosen, divide by the number of mg/ml of the medication you're giving.

The example I will use is Valbazen. The most common amount used is 20 mg/kg, which means that you give 20 mg for every one kilogram. 









The label says it's 113.6 mg/ml, so the formula for a six pound chicken using 20 mg/ml is:
6 / 2.2 x 20 /113.6 = 0.48 ml

Does that make sense?


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## seminole wind

MikeA_15 said:


> Here's what I'd do. Alleviate concerns by paying attention to their droppings. Many worms can be seen in fresh dropping, I mean just dropped, in bright light like sunlight, with a magnifying glass. Urates (the white cap on a bird's dropping will regularly appear thread-like often when they have worms. Dropping will be loose/watery or foamy. If they are eating more often and don't seem to be growing well, that is another symptom.
> 
> Coccidiosis infections exhibit much of the same symptoms. So the best thing to do is use Amprolium once a month, the same time each month, in their water for 5 days. You can use .5 tsp of Corid 20% powder or 1 tsp of Corid 9.6% solution per gallon of water. Make this the only water available for them to drink during that time. I do this until birds are around 9 months of age.
> 
> Each week use a good quality poultry vitamin-electrolyte in the water 2-3 days a week. This is also good for growth and helping to build immunity since formulated feeds are subject to oxidation which lessens the level of nutrient quality. I never saw anyone's birds benefit by using cheap feed. I know it sounds funny lurking around with a magnifying glass looking at chicken turds, but I've done it, and sure enough spotted cecal worms from 4 month old pullets in the past. The things we do for our animals, lol.


Funny, it would not seem odd to see You lurking around with a magnifying glass looking at chicken turds, LOL


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## seminole wind

casportpony said:


> Interesting study...
> 
> As for metric versus imperial, metric is *so* much easier, and almost all medications come as mg per ml or mg per gram, so why fight it?
> 
> Some people may not appreciate my anal retentiveness when it comes to calculating doses, but I'll bet that there are quite a few that do like knowing how much medication they should be giving.
> 
> This little guy could be overdosed on some medications quite easily if I was just going by what most people give bantams.


The metric system Is easier and the world should use it. But, how old are you?

I would be clueless if I hadn't been a nurse. Out of 13 of my family members, aged 30-80, 4 could tell you how many ml. in a teaspoon. I think some people do want to see the calculation. But , I think doses should also be given so that the general population understands. Such as teaspoon, pound, ounce, exc. Even if it's "give * mls or * tsps. per gallon or per pound."


----------



## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> The metric system Is easier and the world should use it. But, how old are you?
> 
> I would be clueless if I hadn't been a nurse. Out of 13 of my family members, aged 30-80, 4 could tell you how many ml. in a teaspoon. I think some people do want to see the calculation. But , I think doses should also be given so that the general population understands. Such as teaspoon, pound, ounce, exc. Even if it's "give * mls or * tsps. per gallon or per pound."


I'm 53... Most liquid medications should be shown as ml or cc, but for something less precise, like Corid or Wazine, sure, use tsp, tbs, or ounce.

Maybe there should be a sticky that shows how to convert one to the other?

People can also google, right? How hard is it to google liquid ounce to ml?

If you see any posts of mine were I don't include a *ml per pound* or *tsp/tbs per gallon*, let me know and I'll edit it.


----------



## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> I'm 53... Most liquid medications should be shown as ml or cc, but for something less precise, like Corid or Wazine, sure, use tsp, tbs, or ounce.
> 
> Maybe there should be a sticky that shows how to convert one to the other?
> 
> People can also google, right? How hard is it to google liquid ounce to ml?
> 
> If you see any posts of mine were I don't include a *ml per pound* or *tsp/tbs per gallon*, let me know and I'll edit it.


Milliliters is easy enough to convert. I just get sick of the lame measurement of kilograms. Standard weights and measures make more sense. If you think .25 cc of Valbazen is bad for a 1 lb bird, you might have a heart attack at this dewormer I've used before and recently got some more of:








These are only for mature birds due to the size of the caplet and I've used half a caplet for Bantam and a full one for LF 3-9 lbs. No health issues, no worms. I still don't understand your math with Valbazen/Albendazole. Perhaps I'm just that bad when it comes to math.


----------



## seminole wind

casportpony said:


> I'm 53... Most liquid medications should be shown as ml or cc, but for something less precise, like Corid or Wazine, sure, use tsp, tbs, or ounce.
> 
> Maybe there should be a sticky that shows how to convert one to the other?
> 
> People can also google, right? How hard is it to google liquid ounce to ml?
> 
> If you see any posts of mine were I don't include a *ml per pound* or *tsp/tbs per gallon*, let me know and I'll edit it.


Ml's per pound is good , or tsp or tbls per gallon is good. I know injections have to be mg/ml . Maybe a conversion chart, or better yet a cartoon, LOL. 
Maybe using different colors. Maybe someone can volunteer an example of what would be good.


----------



## casportpony

Mike, when you figured out that 0.25 ml was 28.4 mg, did you get that number by doing 113.6 / 4 or 113.6 x 0.25? Not that it matters, just trying to figure out how best to explain some things. Both ways are correct.


----------



## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Ml's per pound is good , or tsp or tbls per gallon is good. I know injections have to be mg/ml . Maybe a conversion chart, or better yet a cartoon, LOL.
> Maybe using different colors. Maybe someone can volunteer an example of what would be good.


Injections will be both mg/ml *and* mg/kg or mg/pound.


----------



## casportpony

How much do you all think a 5-6 week old chick might weigh? A five week old chick might weigh 3/4 pounds, but it might also weigh only 1/2 pound. So let us use both example and calculate how many mg/kg that is when they get 0.25 ml Valbazen.

1/2 pound = .227 kg, so it's mg divided by kg - 28.4 mg / .227 kg = 125.11 mg/kg
3/4 pound = .34 kg, so it's mg divided by kg - 28.4 mg / .34 kg = 83.5 mg/kg

Let us do it for the bigger ones. Most of you say to give 1/2 ml, yes? 1/2 ml = 56.8 mg
5 pounds = 2.27 kg, so it's mg divided by kg - 56.8 mg / 2.27 kg = 25.02 mg/kg
7 pounds = 3.175 kg, so it's mg divided by kg - 56.8 mg / 3.175 kg = 17.89 mg/kg

Does that make sense? 

Given the above, with my little roo weighing 315 grams, the math looks like this:
28.4 / .315 = 90.16 mg/kg and you can verify it by doing this: .315 x 90.16 / 113.6 = 0.25 ml

Hope this helps.


----------



## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> Milliliters is easy enough to convert. I just get sick of the lame measurement of kilograms. Standard weights and measures make more sense. If you think .25 cc of Valbazen is bad for a 1 lb bird, you might have a heart attack at this dewormer I've used before and recently got some more of:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are only for mature birds due to the size of the caplet and I've used half a caplet for Bantam and a full one for LF 3-9 lbs. No health issues, no worms. I still don't understand your math with Valbazen/Albendazole. Perhaps I'm just that bad when it comes to math.


I know nothing about Phenothiazine and Dibutyltin Dilaurate, but huge amounts of piperazine are listed for chickens, as in 100-500 mg/kg.

"Piperazine is approved for use in laying hens in Australia and Canada at doses ranging from 130 to 200mg/kg/body weight one time and a zero day egg and meat withdrawal."


----------



## seminole wind

Seems the only thing that's easy for me is a ratio. So I set my problems up like this.

The dose is 40mg per pound. My bird weighs 5 pounds. So 40mg x 5 =200mg.

Now the med comes as 100mg. Per ml . So I have 100mg/1ml, and I want 200mg. In ? 

--- Multiply 200mg x 1= 200. 200 divided by 100 = 2. So I have to give 2ml. 

Kathy, maybe what's missing is more words about what the problem is. Remember the story problems in algebra? It's all ratio. 

Normally a med will tell you how it comes- 65mg. /ml. It will also tell you the dose. 30mg/lb.

Lets say your bird weighs 3lbs. So 30mg/ 1pound dose becomes 90 mg for 3 pounds. 
You need 90mg, and the med comes 65mg/ml.

65mg /1ml (have) = 90mg/ ? 

--- 1 x 90=90. 90 divided by 65= ~1.4ml. To give.


I can't do these doses unless I set them up like that and remember what each number is for. It has to be set up like fractions (ratio). Kilos? I convert them to pounds first. But I do a simple conversion. If my dose is 50mg/kg, I make it 50mg./2 pounds or 25 mg /pound. I know a kg is actually 2.2 pounds, if I have time and a calculator,paper, pen, and a cup of coffee.

Can you break your calculations down and explain as you go? You can probably tell a better story problem than I can.


----------



## seminole wind

casportpony said:


> I know nothing about Phenothiazine and Dibutyltin Dilaurate, but huge amounts of piperazine are listed for chickens, as in 100-500 mg/kg.
> 
> "Piperazine is approved for use in laying hens in Australia and Canada at doses ranging from 130 to 200mg/kg/body weight one time and a zero day egg and meat withdrawal."


What is this wormer?


----------



## dawg53

seminolewind said:


> What is this wormer?


Wormal. I know some people that used it long ago.


----------



## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Seems the only thing that's easy for me is a ratio. So I set my problems up like this.
> 
> The dose is 40mg per pound. My bird weighs 5 pounds. So 40mg x 5 =200mg.
> 
> Now the med comes as 100mg. Per ml . So I have 100mg/1ml, and I want 200mg. In ?
> 
> --- Multiply 200mg x 1= 200. 200 divided by 100 = 2. So I have to give 2ml.
> 
> Kathy, maybe what's missing is more words about what the problem is. Remember the story problems in algebra? It's all ratio.
> 
> *Normally a med will tell you how it comes- 65mg. /ml. It will also tell you the dose. 30mg/lb.
> 
> Lets say your bird weighs 3lbs. So 30mg/ 1pound dose becomes 90 mg for 3 pounds.
> You need 90mg, and the med comes 65mg/ml.
> 
> 65mg /1ml (have) = 90mg/ ?
> 
> --- 1 x 90=90. 90 divided by 65= ~1.4ml. To give.*
> 
> I can't do these doses unless I set them up like that and remember what each number is for. It has to be set up like fractions (ratio). Kilos? I convert them to pounds first. But I do a simple conversion. If my dose is 50mg/kg, I make it 50mg./2 pounds or 25 mg /pound. I know a kg is actually 2.2 pounds, if I have time and a calculator,paper, pen, and a cup of coffee.
> 
> Can you break your calculations down and explain as you go? You can probably tell a better story problem than I can.


The way you do it looks like this, yes?
3 x 30 / 65 = ~1.4

It's weight of bird in pounds, times desired mg per pound, divide by number of mg per ml = number of ml to give.

*When dose is listed as mg/kg*
Since most medications don't list the dose the bird dose in mg per pounds, they list it in mg per kg, the the formula looks like this instead:
Weight of bird in pounds, divide by 2.2 (converts pounds to kilograms), times desired mg per pound, divide by number of mg per ml = number of ml to give.


----------



## seminole wind

casportpony said:


> The way you do it looks like this, yes?
> 3 x 30 / 65 = ~1.4
> 
> It's weight of bird in pounds, times desired mg per pound, divide by number of mg per ml = number of ml to give.
> 
> *When dose is listed as mg/kg*
> Since most medications don't list the dose the bird dose in mg per pounds, they list it in mg per kg, the the formula looks like this instead:
> Weight of bird in pounds, divide by 2.2 (converts pounds to kilograms), times desired mg per pound, divide by number of mg per ml = number of ml to give.


No. It's the same but I do it in 2 steps. It's easier for me to understand. It's more or less the set-up of the problem for me.

I take the way you write it, 3 x 30/65=1.4

I write it dose is dose is 10mg /pound. Chicken is 3 pounds. 3 x 10mg=30mg.
There is 60mg. in 1ml. My chicken needs 30mg. So 60mg in 1 ml = my bird is 30/ ?. So I write it 60/1 and 30/?, multiply 30 x 1 divided by 60 = 0.5ml.

Left bottom number x right upper number, then divided by left upper number and the dose is the answer and goes in the lower right corner and that's the dose for the chicken. If it's written like yours, it's too many numbers in a row and I lose track of what they are. That's me. Others should chime in and give their opinion as well. I don't want me being the only one, LOL


----------



## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> Mike, when you figured out that 0.25 ml was 28.4 mg, did you get that number by doing 113.6 / 4 or 113.6 x 0.25? Not that it matters, just trying to figure out how best to explain some things. Both ways are correct.


I divided 113.6mg (1 ml of Valbazen) by 4 to get the 28.4mg in .25 ml dose.


----------



## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> I know nothing about Phenothiazine and Dibutyltin Dilaurate, but huge amounts of piperazine are listed for chickens, as in 100-500 mg/kg.
> 
> "Piperazine is approved for use in laying hens in Australia and Canada at doses ranging from 130 to 200mg/kg/body weight one time and a zero day egg and meat withdrawal."


Here's an abstract about phenothiazine use in chickens:
http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/44/2/413.abstract?related-urls=yes&legid=poultrysci;44/2/413

and this from a University in Japan tested on Peacocks:
http://eprints2008.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2115/1795/1/KJ00002369102.pdf


----------



## casportpony

Curiously, how would you guys calculate this medication?

Bird weighs 0.44 pounds
Medication is 22.7 mg/ml
Dose is 15 mg/kg


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## Nm156

\......................................

1/8 th of a ml is what i came up with


----------



## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> Curiously, how would you guys calculate this medication?
> 
> Bird weighs 0.44 pounds
> Medication is 22.7 mg/ml
> Dose is 15 mg/kg


I've never found myself in a situation where such a medication had that dose requirement.
Since cc and ml are the same, 2.2 lbs = 1 kg, .44 lbs is about .20 kg. I would dose between 20-25 cc. To ensure the dosage, I'd consult with my vet. This is why standard weights and measures simplify calculations whereas the Euro metric system complicates.


----------



## Nm156

This is what i was doing
2.2lbs(1kg) / .44 lbs = 5
15 ml per kg / 5 =3ml
22.7 mg per ml / 3 = 7.566 rounded to 1/8th
1ml / 8 = .125 ml


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## casportpony

Mike, curiously, how did you come up with that amount?

Nm156, your 0.125 ml amount is very close. The amount I calculated is 0.13 ml.

In the interest of staying on topic (wormers), I started this thread:
http://www.chickenforum.com/f12/calculating-doses-medication-10732/


----------



## seminole wind

casportpony said:


> Curiously, how would you guys calculate this medication?
> 
> Bird weighs 0.44 pounds
> Medication is 22.7 mg/ml
> Dose is 15 mg/kg


Bird weighs .44 pounds. dose is 15 mg per kg/or 15mg per 2.2 lbs. or 6.8 per pound.

6.8/1 =x/.44=3mg.

22.7mg/1ml=3mg/x. x =.132ml


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## casportpony

..................


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Bird weighs .44 pounds. dose is 15 mg per kg/or 15mg per 2.2 lbs. or 6.8 per pound.
> 
> 6.8/1 =x/.44=3mg.
> 
> 22.7mg/1ml=3mg/x. x =.132ml


Perfect.....


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## Nm156

Why not weigh the bird in grams in stead of pounds?


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## casportpony

Nm156 said:


> Why not weigh the bird in grams in stead of pounds?


Lol, that's what I do, then the math is easier for me.

0.2 kg x 15 mg / 22.7 = .132 ml


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## MikeA_15

Nm156 said:


> This is what i was doing
> 2.2lbs(1kg) / .44 lbs = 5
> 15 ml per kg / 5 =3ml
> 22.7 mg per ml / 3 = 7.566 rounded to 1/8th
> 1ml / 8 = .125 ml


That makes more sense.


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## seminole wind

Nm156 said:


> Why not weigh the bird in grams in stead of pounds?


Because in nursing school, we learned if we know how to calculate the answer one way, we should not change it. Thru the years I found that I do things kind of backwards from others. Oh well. I need to understand "about" what I should come up with and if my calculation isn't comparable , it's not right. I can do it, but it might take me an hour.


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## casportpony

Oxfendazole/Praziquantel powder









..
.

.
.
.


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## seminole wind

I like that wormer. A TEASPOON PER GALLON! Where do I get that?


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> I like that wormer. A TEASPOON PER GALLON! Where do I get that?


I considered not posting that because just because of what the directions say. Note that it says five grams per gallon. I guess it's possible that one teaspoon does weigh five grams, but one would need to verify that.

I know everyone wants to believe that a mfg is gonna put correct directions on products, but some don't. People have to start using their brains a little instead of just blindly following what they read.

Also note that there are no chickens on the package, and the chicken dose is probably more than the pigeon dose. It's basically a powders form of WormOut Gel, so probably best to use it the same way as WormOut Gel.


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## seminole wind

http://www.safemedication.com/safem...HowtoAdminister/How-to-Use-Liquid-Medications

http://www.pharmacy.ca.gov/publications/measuring_liquid_medicine.pdf

http://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20100104/spoon-size-leads-to-medicine-dosage-errors

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/patientinstructions/000772.htm

http://www.onlineconversion.com/forum/forum_995543940.htm

Kathy, you are right, 5ml = 1 tsp, and 5g. may not = a tsp from a scientific viewpoint. But in common practice, they are used interchangeably. When I think of all the variables in chickens, thirst, body weight, metabolism, runny or formed stools, empty crop or full crop, etc, I feel like 5g= 1 tsp is acceptable. Though not by everyone.


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## casportpony

5 ml of *liquid* = one teaspoon = 5 *grams*, not mg.


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## casportpony

Question for anyone here following... How many teaspoons are in 3.5 tablespoons?


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## nannypattyrn

10.5 teaspoons ?


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## casportpony

nannypattyrn said:


> 10.5 teaspoons ?


You are correct! Now what would you say if I showed you documentation from a mfg that says one once of their powder = 3.5 tablespoons?


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## nannypattyrn

I would say it's either very fine powder ( powdered sugar) or somethings wrong.


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## casportpony

nannypattyrn said:


> I would say it's either very fine powder ( powdered sugar) or somethings wrong.


Assume it's like powdered sugar or corn starch.


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## nannypattyrn

Someone or something is not right. Keep in mind that I'm not a mathematical person and I get frustrated easily. I was ecstatic when unit doses came out so I didn't have to figure nearly as much anymore.


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## seminole wind

casportpony said:


> 5 ml of *liquid* = one teaspoon = 5 *grams*, not mg.


Thanks for catching that!


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> http://www.safemedication.com/safem...HowtoAdminister/How-to-Use-Liquid-Medications
> 
> http://www.pharmacy.ca.gov/publications/measuring_liquid_medicine.pdf
> 
> http://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20100104/spoon-size-leads-to-medicine-dosage-errors
> 
> https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/patientinstructions/000772.htm
> 
> http://www.onlineconversion.com/forum/forum_995543940.htm
> 
> Kathy, you are right, 5ml = 1 tsp, and 5g. may not = a tsp from a scientific viewpoint. But in common practice, they are used interchangeably. When I think of all the variables in chickens, thirst, body weight, metabolism, runny or formed stools, empty crop or full crop, etc, I feel like 5g= 1 tsp is acceptable. Though not by everyone.


With most liquids it can be used interchangeably, but not with powders, and that's because powders don't have the same density as water. The first four links in your post are for liquids, not powder. Read the entry in the fifth link that talks about density.

Grams and mg are a weight, not a volume
0.1 mg = 0.0001 gram
1 mg = 0.001 gram
10 mg = 0.01 gram
100 mg = 0.1 gram
1000 mg = 1 gram
10000 mg = 10 gram
100000 mg = 100 grams
1000000 mg = 1000 grams or 1 kg

ml = cc

Liquids:
1/16 teaspoon = 0.31 ml
1/10 teaspoon = 0.49 ml
1/8 teaspoon = 0.62 ml
1/4 teaspoon = 1.23 ml
1/3 teaspoon = 1.64 ml
1/2 teaspoon = 2.46 ml
3/4 teaspoon = 3.7 ml 
1 teaspoon = 4.93 ml
1 tablespoon = 14.79 ml

So one teaspoon of water will weigh 4.93 grams, which is also 4930 mg.


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## casportpony

My Corid powder experiment:

The tools








The teaspoons with Corid powder








3.12 grams of powder. This teaspoon has 624 mg of amprolium








3.05 grams of powder. This teaspoon has 610 mg of amprolium








http://www.drugs.com/vet/ampromed-p-for-poultry-20-soluble-powder.html
*Active Ingredient
amprolium

20%

Use Directions: 1 oz = 3 1/2 measuring tablespoonfuls*


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## casportpony

nannypattyrn said:


> Someone or something is not right. Keep in mind that I'm not a mathematical person and I get frustrated easily. I was ecstatic when unit doses came out so I didn't have to figure nearly as much anymore.


The math is quite difficult for me, so I just go slow and triple check everything. If I get stuck, I ask DH to verify my work.

Like many others, it was hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that one teaspoon of powder doesn't weigh 5 grams. What helped me undterstand it better was to think about how much other things might weigh, like how much would a tsp of feathers or Styrofoam weigh? Or on the heavy end... how much would one tsp of lead or mercury weigh?


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## casportpony

10% flubendazole here:
http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ItemsForSale.html

I have no idea how much one would use to treat chickens, but will try to figure that out later.

-Kathy

Note: flubendazole is the active ingredient in Flubenvet


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## ThomasKirby

Me too think so!


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## casportpony

ThomasKirby said:


> Me too think so!


Welcome to chickenforum.com!


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## artsy1

is this a worm issue? Have a rescue pullet, lethargic, mouth breathing, have her on tylan for that, emaciated, here is her poop


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## dawg53

Not necessarily caused by worms, however a fecal test at a vet would determine if in fact it's worms or coccidia. Since you mentioned she's a rescue; mouth breathing, emaciated and white urates which are the results of digestion and metabolism of proteins in the bird's system, it comes from the kidneys. I suspect possible lack of proper feed in her diet and dehydration. I recommend Probios dispersable powder mixed in water and feed as a slurry. I also recommend that you continue to monitor her feces.


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## artsy1

dawg53 said:


> Not necessarily caused by worms, however a fecal test at a vet would determine if in fact it's worms or coccidia. Since you mentioned she's a rescue; mouth breathing, emaciated and white urates which are the results of digestion and metabolism of proteins in the bird's system, it comes from the kidneys. I suspect possible lack of proper feed in her diet and dehydration. I recommend Probios dispersable powder mixed in water and feed as a slurry. I also recommend that you continue to monitor her feces.


hadn't thought of probiotics- done! Yes, there were 4, she is the only survivor- all were extremely pale and were treated for cocci - its been extremely frustrating


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## seminole wind

Probiotics are great but I use them after treating them. If it were me, I would be using tube feeding because a sick bird will probably not eat or drink enough to save their life. I would treat for cocci, and worms.. I think tube feeding is great to "jump start" them until they get interested in food.


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## casportpony

artsy1 said:


> is this a worm issue? Have a rescue pullet, lethargic, mouth breathing, have her on tylan for that, emaciated, here is her poop


Sort of a strange color, but it looks pretty normal, though maybe a little dry?


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## casportpony

From a friend:


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## artsy1

well, update on the pullet, i think alot of it was dehydration, did have a fecal done, odd, i sent it off due to this dropping- assuming cocci- lab results showed no cocci and no worms, so now i am seriously confused


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## dawg53

I suspected as much...nutrition and dehydration. Besides Probios, you can mix buttermilk with chopped boiled egg or scrambled egg and give it to her to eat for a few days. That should get her back to normal, unless she's already back to normal by now. Then you could mix buttermilk in her feed for a few days if you wish. Hot temps are a factor also. Keeping birds hydrated in this heat is imperative. That might've been the root problem all along judging by the way her feces looked. OR, I wonder if she was ever fed DE? DE dries mucosal intestinal lining preventing water and the liquifying of nutrients from feed for proper absorption. That could be cause by the way the feces looked in the pic.
As you know, shed intestinal lining is normal on occasion. I've seen weird looking lining like that before. However if it's shedding more than out of the ordinary, there are other causes other than cocci and/or worms. Here's an in depth link:
http://poultry-health.com/fora/inthelth/hoerr01.htm


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## artsy1

She is a puzzle for sure, still very pale, apparently now dealing with wryneck, she loves eggwhite, but not yolk, oatmeal but not normal feed and occasional catfood, so i am giving her all, and letting her pick- today oatmeal seems to be the choice, she also has a chronic sneeze, have had her on tylan, denaguard, now on oxy with neomycin, seems to have started working on the sneeizng- she came from a lady that was restocking her flock after a flood, and i suspect their were mold issues- after loosing alot of the chicks she rehomed this girl and her 3 hatchmates, i ended up with them when the new home didn't work out-


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## dawg53

I've never dealt with wry neck or stargazing but I know they are symptoms of some other problem, usually a vitamin or mineral deficiency (treatable) or certain diseases. Vitamin and mineral treatments is where I would start, selenium as part of the treatment unless you want to spend gobs of money with a vet to find out what's going on with her. Here's a Q&A from MyPetChicken regarding wry neck:
http://www.mypetchicken.com/backyar...that-I-have-been-using-to-breed-but-H214.aspx


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## artsy1

dawg53 said:


> I've never dealt with wry neck or stargazing but I know they are symptoms of some other problem, usually a vitamin or mineral deficiency (treatable) or certain diseases. Vitamin and mineral treatments is where I would start, selenium as part of the treatment unless you want to spend gobs of money with a vet to find out what's going on with her. Here's a Q&A from MyPetChicken regarding wry neck:
> http://www.mypetchicken.com/backyar...that-I-have-been-using-to-breed-but-H214.aspx


i've dealt with wry before, i suppose it wouldn't be surprising considering her background- will get that started, appreciate the help!


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## casportpony

Remember that a false fecal just means that nothing was found in that sample and you're at the mercy of the tech or vet doing the test. Example... A pea friend of mine had a critically ill hen that had lost almost 1/2 her weight and could not walk, so she took a fecal to the vet, and that sample tested negative. Two days later she took another sample in to a different vet, and that vet found tons of coccidia and many capillary eggs.


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## seminole wind

Unless it's a chick and coccidia, it's harder to know what it is because aside from cocci damaging the intestine, there's enteritis of the small intestine which can include cocci, capillaria, e. coli, or clostridium. If there's worm damage, any organism can take up residence. Death can sometimes be the only symptom.


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## casportpony

> 3/ fenbendazole- a useful drug, has the disadvantage that it and other drugs in the same group cannot be used during moulting otherwise a 'fret mark' will form in the feathers that were growing at the time of treatment.


source: http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/Race_Form_Part3.html

Fret marks:

























.
.
.
.
.
.


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## artsy1

been awhile, is there a withdrawal for valbazen? am finding lots of contradiction from none to 14 days


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## Nm156

It's not been established for poultry so you have to make your own conclusion on withdrawal time .


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## dawg53

I normally waited 14 days after the last dosing. It's up to you Artsy.


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## artsy1

dawg53 said:


> I normally waited 14 days after the last dosing. It's up to you Artsy.


i've never paid a whole lot of attention to withdrawals, but someone asked- and i was researching - different countries have different withdrawal, then the question came up if the actual ingredients are the same- sheesh-


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## dawg53

Benzimidazole wormers pass through the digestive tract quickly. The residue in eggs are slight and wouldnt cause harm unless a person is allergic to the product. I've eaten eggs after using benzimidazoles and I'm still here typing.
However the macrolide wormers stay in the system up to 30 days ie...avermectins. They are pretty much useless as wormers in poultry due to resistance caused by overuse. Side effects are greater as well. Most dog wormers contain an avermectin.


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## nannypattyrn

Dawg, give me an example of the benzimidazole (brand)...


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## artsy1

so that is Valbazen, Safeguard, Panacur?


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## casportpony

nannypattyrn said:


> Dawg, give me an example of the benzimidazole (brand)...


Safeguard, Panacur (fenbenazole), Valbazen (albendazole), Synanthic (oxfendazole), Flubenvet (flubendazole)

List of more here:
http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2440&Itemid=2701



.


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## dawg53

Here's a link to antiparasitic wormer groups for your info, scroll down below the pyrantel pamoate info and into the blue area. I've used one or more wormers in all but one group. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrantel_pamoate
Currently I use piperazine, pyrantel pamoate, albendazole, fenbendazole in rotation and can easily get praziquantel if needed.
I've used ivermectin, eprinomectin, levamisole, moxidectin, milbemycin oxime at one time or another, but no longer use these products.


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## nannypattyrn

Thank you! .......


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## seminole wind

I don't see a problem if one is using ivermectin in a rotation. I don't think I'd use moxidectin-I think that's the one that is more toxic dose wise in horses. 

I do think the best thing if desired is to take a specimen to the vet maybe once or twice a year. Or send to a lab. There would be no guessing and you would know what to focus on.


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> I don't see a problem if one is using ivermectin in a rotation. I don't think I'd use moxidectin-I think that's the one that is more toxic dose wise in horses.
> 
> I do think the best thing if desired is to take a specimen to the vet maybe once or twice a year. Or send to a lab. There would be no guessing and you would know what to focus on.


Ivermectin is very unlikely to treat anything other than roundworms. Don't know what moxidectin will treat, but you are correct, it has a much narrower safety margin in *all* species, not just horses.

.


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## dawg53

You're right Kathy. Moxidectin requires exact dosing. Too risky to overdose due to low tolerance. I used Quest Plus gel equine wormer once for tapeworms and I overdosed one of my hens, she was staggering and somewhat listless. I had given her a small "pea" size amount when I shouldve given her a "BB" size amount as I had with 2 other hens. That was the last time I used the product. I switched to albendazole & Z-Gold thereafter when dealing with tapes, much safer with a higher a tolerance level.
Ivermectin fails at treating large roundworms and other worms in poultry. I used it long ago and witnessed a couple of my birds excreting live large roundworms a month later. If you want a large roundworm flush, piperazine will do it. But you gotta be careful of intestinal blockage or the bird will die from toxic dead worm overload. Hands down benzimidazoles are the way to go worming poultry.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> You're right Kathy. Moxidectin requires exact dosing. Too risky to overdose due to low tolerance. I used Quest Plus gel equine wormer once for tapeworms and I overdosed one of my hens, she was staggering and somewhat listless. I had given her a small "pea" size amount when I shouldve given her a "BB" size amount as I had with 2 other hens. That was the last time I used the product. I switched to albendazole & Z-Gold thereafter when dealing with tapes, much safer with a higher a tolerance level.
> Ivermectin fails at treating large roundworms and other worms in poultry. I used it long ago and witnessed a couple of my birds excreting live large roundworms a month later. If you want a large roundworm flush, piperazine will do it. But you gotta be careful of intestinal blockage or the bird will die from toxic dead worm overload. Hands down benzimidazoles are the way to go worming poultry.


Quest Plus is 2% moxidectin, 12.5% praziquantel

Safe moxidectin dose is 0.0045 ml per pound (0.2 mg/kg), which is about 0.023 ml for a five pound bird.

Most effective praziquantel dose is 0.036 ml per pound (10 mg/kg), which is about 0.18 ml for a five pound bird.

Amounts above peas from left to right are 0.1 ml, 0.25 ml, 0.5 ml
Amount above rice is 0.025 ml
(Ivermectin paste shown, not Quest)










.


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## casportpony

This might be a safer product to use:









Moxidectin 1 mg/ml & Praziquantel 18.8 mg/ml
http://glamgouldians.com/product-moxidectin-plus.php

.


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## dawg53

Like I mentioned, I dont use moxidectin anymore. Keep in mind that it's a gel (equine) and tends to be liquidy especially with hot temps and it's not like a paste. It's a pain in the neck to use in chickens with the low tolerance... from my experience. I dont recommend anyone else use it in poultry neither.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> Like I mentioned, I dont use moxidectin anymore. Keep in mind that it's a gel (equine) and tends to be liquidy especially with hot temps and it's not like a paste. It's a pain in the neck to use in chickens with the low tolerance... from my experience. I dont recommend anyone else use it in poultry neither.


The gels can be given very accurately from a 1 ml syringe.


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## casportpony

Note that I corrected a typo in post #202. Correct safe moxidectin dose is 0.023 ml for a five pound bird, and that amount is unlikely to have enough praziquantel to be effective.

.


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## artsy1

have a new rescue, and wondered if this is gape? clear lungs


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## dawg53

I'd take a fresh fecal sample to a vet to get it checked for worm eggs if I were you.


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## seminole wind

She may have worms but I would treat for pneumonia. Just to be sure.


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## casportpony

Can you take it to a vet?


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## artsy1

well he is hanging on, i have started oxine in a cool mist humidifier, and medistatin after reading on fungal respiratory- he came from a bad situation- owner was downsizing due to health issues and hadn't been able to clean properly- when i went there i was appalled to say the least, this little guy had been moved into the house, and in the last 2 weeks treated for worms (asked dosage etc and she said valbazen peasize, don't think she remembered what she gave), wryneck, sourcrop, and tube feeding she said she did wrong- and handed me a bag of miscellaneous drugs she had tried- i ended up bringing him and 2 hens home directly into strict quarantine- his breathing isn't as bad, but will send a fecal out. He is emaciated on top of it all


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## dawg53

You mentioned that she did the tube feeding wrong. That's most likely the problem, whatever she gave the bird went down its windpipe. I know of no treatment nor cure.


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## seminole wind

Yea, if she put fluid down the windpipe, it would have to dissipate on it's own, meanwhile I would keep her on an antibiotic like Tylan. If he/she has a fungal infection in the lungs, there is really nothing that will help. I did at one point sprinkle Nystatin powder on a cube of bread daily and give it to a hen that was gasping when at rest. I can't say that it worked or not.


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## casportpony

I don't think that Nystatin works for anything other than GI fungal infections.








Source: http://avianmedicine.net/content/uploads/2013/03/18.pdf

.


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## artsy1

the fella is hanging on, so medistatin probably won't work then? As far as antibiotics, will that work even with a fungal? he will eat some, and drink a little, am hand watering(a few drops at a time) with crumble for nutrition- as far as the tubing wrong, can that absorb or probably permanent damage?


----------



## casportpony

artsy1 said:


> the fella is hanging on, so medistatin probably won't work then? As far as antibiotics, will that work even with a fungal? he will eat some, and drink a little, am hand watering(a few drops at a time) with crumble for nutrition- as far as the tubing wrong, can that absorb or probably permanent damage?


Medistatin won't treat any yeast it doesn't physically touch.

Antibiotics would probably make a fungal infection worse.

A few drop of water at a time is not enough. Watch this, then let me know if you want to learn how to tube feed.

.


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## artsy1

Thanks everyone for your help, i did lose him tonight. Bright green poop, which makes me think he was over medicated before i got him, and of course the tubing. So frustrating - yes Kathy if you can send me info on tubing properly, my understanding is it is highly stressful on a bird?


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## casportpony

artsy1 said:


> Thanks everyone for your help, i did lose him tonight. Bright green poop, which makes me think he was over medicated before i got him, and of course the tubing. So frustrating - yes Kathy if you can send me info on tubing properly, my understanding is it is highly stressful on a bird?


So sorry you lost him, but I'm not surprised as he looked *very* sick in the video. {{{{ hugs }}}}

As for tubing being stressful, I guarantee you it's way less stressful than syringing small amounts of water, and it's much safer than syringing.

I'm very tired right now, but will put together some info later.

Did you watch the laferbervet video?

.


----------



## casportpony

Eye worm video:


----------



## casportpony




----------



## dawg53

Mix equal parts of valbazen with water and flush the eyes. Then give 1cc valbazen orally undiluted. Repeat dosing orally in 10 days. Bye bye eyeworms and every other worm. Monthly redosing will be required because the soil will be contaminated with eyeworm eggs.


----------



## IncubatorWarehouse

I love fresh pumpkins for this, natural and it works well. Clean up is, ermm...interesting.

EDIT * I think I am talking about different worms, lol.


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## seminole wind

Fresh pumpkin? In their eye?


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## casportpony

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication...aign=Acreage+11212015+Newsletter#/570ea92d/25

















.


----------



## Nm156

.......................


----------



## casportpony

Sigh...

Piperazine
There is one study looking at piperazine residues in the eggs of treated hens. Piperazine is approved for use in laying hens in Australia and Canada at doses ranging from 130 to 200mg/kg/body weight one time and a zero day egg and meat withdrawal. In the US, since there is no tolerance, this withdrawal needs to be extended.

Source: http://www.usfarad.org/drug-wdi-faqs.html

.


----------



## casportpony

If you want to know what a withdrawal time is, contact FARAD and ask them... don't waste your time with the mfg.
http://cafarad.ucdavis.edu/farmweb/index.aspx

.


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## IncubatorWarehouse

seminolewind said:


> Fresh pumpkin? In their eye?


I know...I know, read the whole post before I get excited, lol.


----------

