# Ayam Cemani



## Steadfast

Hello,
I am a breeder of Ayam Cemani here in the good old USA.

This Thread is dedicated to open knowledge for people living in America who wish to breed these birds for BOTH fun and profit!

Since this breed is so new to the USA (only 6 pure genetic lines so far) and there are no set standards for the breed here, perhaps we could move towards establising an American standard for the breed.

This group hopefully will be filled up with only fun positive people...
mean people need not apply...

There WILL be lots of chronological pictures posted here as myself, and many new American breeders of these fantastic birds:

1. set up their farms
2. receive their breeding stock
3. raise them to breeding age
4. candle and incubate their 1st eggs
and
5. bring their "babies" to market

Join members like myself on our live Journey of fun and profit...

Experienced breeders are invited to write articles of advice and to post farm pictures here as well...

Wooohoooo!
What fun we will have!


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## Steadfast

Here are a few photos of my birds.

they are 7 months old now, so....
I should begin starting to incubate on my first batch of home breed eggs in late October.


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## Steadfast

This was posted to me on the introduction forum. 
But bares repeating here too.



robin416 said:


> Welcome, I saw your post about your Ayam Cemani birds. Talk about pure black. I thought the pic had been photo shopped but instead of asking went looking to see what they were about. Imagine my surprise to find out Silkies are not the only black skinned bird.


Here is the kicker. 
Not all pure blood cemanis are pitch black. 
Just like all pure Orpingtons are not all yellow. 
Only 25% of all Cemani are pure black.

The pure black is a dominant genetic trait which only cemanis have. 
This means that the average line produces 25% silver, 50% mostly black and 25% pure pitch black. All of which are capable of throwing pure black.

Only by crossing pure black with pure black and introducing pure black from other lines, while culling HARD, can one make the % greater for consistent black overtime. 
Which is a desired standard none of the American lines has been successful at reaching. 
Including mine.

All the lines need this work. 
And so far, some have been worked for black more than others. 
But that is the only difference. 
And many of us are working on fixing this.

Although the posted photos online would suggest otherwise. 
(Nobody likes to post those failiures which must be culled.) 
And unlike others who will try to claim a corner on the market, 
I am not afraid to post images of the truth along the way. 
For educational purposes. Of course.


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## robin416

I wish more were unafraid to post about failures, as you put it. Its an excellent learning tool. People like me are more visual learners which means if I see it, I'm more apt to retain the information.


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## Steadfast

Here are the links to two video tours of my MAIN coop. 
(I cant figuire out how to upload from my Youtube)






and

My Electric Coop


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## nj2wv

Very nice. I like it.


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## Steadfast

BTW: 
If any of you guys are interested I do have 1 "medium quality" 7 month old rooster available.
He is not the best, but he is a good start, and priced very reasonably for that reason.

PM me if you are interested.


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## robin416

Learning time. 

If there is no standard for them what makes him medium quality?


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## powderhogg01

robin416 said:


> Learning time.
> 
> If there is no standard for them what makes him medium quality?


I would say this statement is subject to discussion alone, as me and some friends were discussing standards and regulation the other day. Whie the standards are good, I do not feel any "standard" is value. 
I strongly feel that if we all put everything we have into our work, and we all are able to put out exceptional work we stand behind the need for standards would cease to exist.
the trades fields is where I work mostly, and I see a lot of shotty work being done.. and passed. why we only strive for mediocre I do not know.
Even with a lack of american standards for the breed, I can certainly see how he could be marked average by someone who knows they are able to produce better birds. As in steadfast case, I bet he has birds that are a lot more solid black, have better size or behavior.. to him this bird is mediocre.. and to put his name on it as an exceptional bird would not suit his name or business.
It could very well be that I put too much thought into everything.. who knows


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## Steadfast

No... You pretty much nailed it. 
Ha ha ha ha 

He is a good bird but not good enough the mix into my breeding program
When he was a chick he was black but he turned reddish in the waddles when he reached 6 months old. It happens. 

He simply isn't strong enough for MY breeding program. 
He was not one of mine and he was expensive. 
I would rather sell him at a big loss and give him a chance as a "cool bird" on someone's farm then cull him for free. 

My own imperfect chicks will not get this chance. 
Sounds mean I know. But this line needs much work.


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## robin416

I absolutely did not catch the wattles. 

Have you all gotten together as to what you're looking for in over all confirmation and working towards that?


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## Steadfast

Yes, those if us who are in the game are shooting for her black right now. 
After that we will work on another trait if needed. 
Maybe egg laying speed.


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## maranfarmer563

*cemani eggs*

steadfast how are your pullets laying? Mine will be old enough in November,but my roosters won't be till January.all the best to you,keep in touch Jody


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## Steadfast

well folks,
I finally have Cemani eggs! 
My 1st set of Cemani hens is finally laying eggs.

I have 11 eggs in the incubator as of last saturday (Oct 25th)
I will let you guys know how things are going with my first hatch as things progress!

I am Very Excited to be finally on my way!


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## Steadfast

well folks,
I finally have Cemani eggs! 
My 1st set of Cemani hens is finally laying eggs.

I have 11 eggs in the incubator as of last saturday (Oct 25th)
I will let you guys know how things are going with my first hatch as things progress!

I am Very Excited to be finally on my way!


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## maranfarmer563

what watt bulbs are you using 
are they just regular house hold bulbs,best of luck with your hatch,Jody


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## littlelimabean

Awesome! That is the lovely all solid black chicken. Hope your hatch turns out great! Please post pics when they are born.


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## BuckeyeChickens

Steadfast said:


> Since this breed is so new to the USA (only 6 pure genetic lines so far) and there are no set standards for the breed here, perhaps we could move towards establising an American standard for the breed.


If you want to "create" an informal American standard for the Cemani why wouldn't you consider the existing standard as a start???

Here is a link to that "Indonesian" Standard;

http://www.cemanifarms.com/2013/09/standard-of-ayam-cemani.html

Finally, in order to get a breed accepted and approved for publication in the APA's (American Poultry Assoc) "Standard of Perfection", the gold standard for all recognized exhibition fowl (chickens, turkeys and waterfowl), the breeders of Cemani's need to be APA members! Currently, the APA is in the process of changing their guidelines for new breed admission and it will require breeders to be APA members for at least 5 years before they can proceed with APA approval. If you are not an APA member now you might consider joining and learning that process in advance!


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## Steadfast

I really appreciate that input...
I need to organize a cemani co-op in my region of the usa...
hopefully with a few exsisting APA members...


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## maranfarmer563

we could use the Indonesian standard just convert measurements to inches and pounds


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## WeeLittleChicken

What beautiful birds. I don't want to overreach my bounds or sound rude but can I see some of these "failures"? I mean if I understand correctly only 25% are jet black, so what does the other 75% look like?? I'm just curious. I'm sure they'd be fascinating either way. So excited for your hatch. I hope it goes well!


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## Fiere

My assumption is that the combs have red showing, or the skin is mottled in some way, legs aren't a clean black, etc. So hard to breed a good bird, when you think of only 25% being true coloured, then add in conformation. 
A few members of the local scene just got back from a big show in Ohio, there was a silver laced Wyandotte there, they say the owner bred over 600 birds this year and only kept 9. Entirely not surprising.


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## Steadfast

If you are serious about perfecting your breeding stock.
you should think about Culling any chick not up to par.

By doing this, only my best chicks make it back into my emerging "HH Line".
also, by culling hard now... I will not have to do it as much later as my % improve.

Giving away live cull birds maybe "Nice" and can even be charitable.
but once that bird is off your farm, it can be breed out of your knowledge,
and further weaken the whole American Cemani Type, or worse:
cheaply empower the establishment of a direct competitor in your area.

I for one invested way too much money and time to "give away the store."

Also,
If I am going to be a part of a regional breeding alliance, each of its members must be willing to maintain the same high standards.
I pledge to trade only the best of my line to other breeders in that alliance as I expect they will to me.

My culling technique.
(Warning...Graphic Description)

I made it easier on myself by doing it out back, at night, in near dark.
I used really sharp scissors.
had an open plastic bag to catch everything,
lifted them by their heads between the 2nd and 3rd knuckle of my main two index fingers
and by feel, touched the scissor blades to the bottom off my fingers with the chicks neck in the middle
and "Snip"...

Like I said... This sucks...
But it is the fasted most humane way to do this.


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## Steadfast

We just hatched a perfect black example of what to keep just one hour ago!


Here is a picture of the 1day olds we culled.

Look at the skin.
Night and day: blue vs. tan

I have said it MANY times the black is in there even if your birds are not perfect. You just gotta keep hatching and rolling the dice. It's all about the %...


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## Steadfast

Now that I am up and running...FINALLY....

I will be hatching 8-10 eggs every 7 days...

The "A" quality birds hatched until new years day will be folded back into my flock 
or traded to other breeders to acquire more lines. 
There will be LOTS of photos tracking their development.
"B" quality will all be culled...

By Christmas, I plan to have my Business website up and running.
and I will be taking reservation orders for 4 week old birds around that time. 
More details coming about this, as it happens.

I will be calling the 3 Cemani quality categories "A. B. and C."

*A: the Best and Blackest of my line: 5-10%*
These show quality birds should maintain there Black waddles as adults. 
This will be what all the fuss is about and will be be the for-runners of the new American Standard.

Price: ???? Whatever the market will bare.

*B: The ones that are close to A, but would be culled: 70-75%*
As chicks they will have white butts and wing tips.
They will sport the famous translucent black feathers but their waddles will turn purple-red as they to into adults.
These will be sold for pets and for the legendary Cemani high egg nutrition production.

Price: around $50/each

*C: These are half to mostly white rejects: 10-20%*
These will be culled at hatch... 
Unless I somehow can find and sell them to a restaurant.

Price: none for sale - $5

I do not plan to sell my eggs unless you can take physical possession of them in the Raleigh NC Area. Egg hatch %s suck after the mailman beats them up...

YES... You guys will get 1st Dib's on the ordering...


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## Steadfast

I culled again last night....
hate that...
I still had to cull in the dark.
It freaks me out that bad.


but, on the bright side, this time I had 2 more make the cut!

That means I have 3 jet black "keeper" chicks, out of a total of 12 hatchlings so far...

Lets hope this % trend continues!


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## Steadfast

My Hatching Set Up...

My big hand made Cooler Incubator is running 3 sets of 10-12 eggs, intoduced 7 days appart



I also have a Little Giant incubator, which I use for the last 3 day "lock down" hatching...
This way I have 2-3 days to clean and sterilize it between each 7 day set... it is smaller and easier to humidify up to the 60-75% needed. Bonus: When it gets too gross to clean anymore, I simply discard it and by a new one for $50.


It runs on a reliable chinese digital thermostate connected to and regulating the existing crappy Little Giant standard issue themostat (perminantly set on high) this keeps the heating coil from running red hot. Which would happen with the digital thermostat alone, hard wired directly into the heating coil.









My home made brewder is doing fine with the chick age mix so far...
It appears that cemani chicks are petty laid back...
 

I've been building this trio hatching system all this year as I awaited the arrival of my first eggs... So far my hatch rate is 85%


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## Pyxis

Hi there, just popping in to say hello. I've now got birds from Tonie Marie, Mike Bean, and Greenfire lines. I think this breed is quickly becoming my favorite. I hatched a gorgeous chick the other day and I'm hoping it's a cockerel. About how long are you finding it takes you before you can visually sex your birds?


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## Maryellen

They are very beautiful birds.

You cull like a breeder i know( she has my highest respect as she breeds and culls true to the breed and is doing what you are doing)

Culling is never easy but its a nessacery evil to make sure your line is pure..



Do the roosters crow a lot like other breeds? How is their aggression with humans? Do you see more easy going roosters that dont attack their humans? I had a silkie rooster that as he matured he became dangerous to any human near the hens and in the yard... I has to get rid of him as he was too dangerous to keep..
Are you also breeding for temperment as well as the pure black?


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## Steadfast

hey there....

pyxis: I can tell the sex on the fifth day after hatch...


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## Steadfast

Maryellen said:


> They are very beautiful birds.
> 
> You cull like a breeder i know( she has my highest respect as she breeds and culls true to the breed and is doing what you are doing)
> 
> Culling is never easy but its a nessacery evil to make sure your line is pure..


 Yes it is the single MOST powerful way to purify your flocks genetic traits.



Maryellen said:


> Do the roosters crow a lot like other breeds?


 yes... just like all the others...



Maryellen said:


> How is their aggression with humans??


They are not too far from the jungles... They are flighty... They will run from you most of the time but will submit once finally captured... forget hand feeding them...



Maryellen said:


> Do you see more easy going roosters that dont attack their humans? I had a silkie rooster that as he matured he became dangerous to any human near the hens and in the yard... I has to get rid of him as he was too dangerous to keep..


The roosters are not aggressive...just FAST... Really really FAST...



Maryellen said:


> Are you also breeding for temperment as well as the pure black?


I'm going for BLACK...


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## Steadfast

double post


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## Maryellen

So they are fast but not aggressive to humans?they are really gorgeous

Thank you for answering my questions!


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## Steadfast

Maryellen said:


> So they are fast but not aggressive to humans?they are really gorgeous
> 
> Thank you for answering my questions!


yes...they are fast...
but also chicken stupid as usual...

If they are paying attention to you, which they almost always are, you will never get closer than 10 feet from them out in the open.

I use two sticks, like the guy at the airport who parks jets.
It takes practice but by walking around them and waiving the sticks, but I can heard them were I want them to go about 90% of the time...

on a side note: 
I have noticed that they can see in near darkness, unlike most all other chickens I own... All my other birds will be well and away up in the coop as the sun sets... but not my cemani... They are still out in the closed run pecking and scratching away until an hour or so after dark falls.


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## Pyxis

Interesting on the sexing. How do you tell? I saw the documents you posted about wing feather sexing and sex linked crosses, but to my knowledge I thought you had to breed specifically to get accurate feather sexing, and the only accurate sex link crossing I had heard of is creating red and black sex links. So feather sexing seems to be accurate within this breed? If so that would be very helpful, but my newest batch are well beyond the age that I could do that with, sadly, so I'll just have to wait for visual differences to appear. Are you still only working with Mike Bean's lines? I've not had much experience with them as chicks and don't know if feather sexing would also work well with Greenfire's lines. I also wonder if they mature at different rates? So far I only have Greenfire line chicks, so I have no way to compare.


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## Steadfast

I am cleaning up and blending both of mikes lines by culling hard. 90%
which is working well...

my second generation mix (10%) is still all jet black... we will see what happens to their combs when they hit puberty... If they don't turn, they stay and mikes original birds will go BYE BYE...

Also, I am adding in two roosters each mixed from greenfire and toni marie cemanis parents... from Black Diamond farm...

These will replace mikes roosters.

So, my 3rd generation will then become a pure genetic mix of 4 lines...
Officially making my birds my own line to be named at that time.

If I need to Cull hard I will until I get A more consistent black.


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## Steadfast

Ok folks.. I find myself in a situation...
Randy of "Black Diamond" and my Cemani mentor, is no longer in the market for any cemanis... 
His flock suffered a horrid raccoon attack and lost almost every cemani he had.

We were going to trade lines this spring...
Mind you, Randy is a good, highly ethical man... and we have worked out another deal...
But now, I have extra birds I was expecting to trade and cannot afford to keep...

I am just about to see my (90% culled out) 2nd generation remnant hit puberty.
Their combs and waddles are looking good for staying black which will be confirmed in 1 more month's time.
You guys have been seeing photos of them from hatch since winter...

If you guys want a pair or so, of my present 13 birds... all "2nd Gens" and young adults...
please PM me and let me know...





If they do stay black, which it appears they will...
I may go into 2nd generation production "only upon request", and for a very limited time, Hatching "2nd Gen" chicks:
PM me and we will talk about a price for some (Post culled out) 4 week old, "2nd Gens",
which I will hatch and cull out for you.... again, only upon request...
And, the price, will be _very reasonable_ as they are "2nd Gen" (2 way mix between Mike's and Smithsonian) not a 4 way genetic cross...
and thus, will have a slight risk of waddle turning, and an estimated 75% cull rate if you wish to breed them....
No pressure: If you all are not interested in any my "2nd Gens", I will simply take what I need for my breeding program and cull the rest.

Guys, I refuse to sale a product that anyone can complain about.
I have seen what happens to the reputations of good folks who "who took a chance" and sold without first proving their product.
_*This is NOT happening to my business.*_
I am BIG into communication during and after the sale.
so, I will send you plenty of photos of any bird you are interested in and we will make a deal at that time...
You must tell me you are fully aware of your purchase and are happy with it before I will take your money.

*on another note:*
My third generation will be a 4 way mix, which will be due to start hatching in late fall 2015.
It will be will be a highly culled out, mix of 4 separate genetic lines... (Mikes line, Tony/Marie line, GFF Line, and Smithsonian line); 
Effectively making them one of, if not the most genetically diverse, pure cemani line in America!!!
And also, because they are a 4 way mix, they will be my own separate line too... I will call them the "H&H Line"

And the price??? I have no idea...
I will have to see the quality of my product and what the market will bare for them at that time.

As for selling H&H Line hatching eggs.... again, I have no idea if I am going to do that or not... probably not unless you are able to pick them up personally... But...We will see... It all depends on what the "Black" hatch rate is at that time....
So far, I really want to sale only birds so that I can control the quality of the product...

I've been working, and waiting a LONG time without selling, just for all of this... Woohoo!!! Finally!!!

PS: I should also have fresh Pure Raw Honey from my Bee Hives to sale in late fall 2015 as well...

Sooooo.... Please PM me any questions or inquiries....

*UPDATE:*
Almost all of my 13 second gens birds are already called for...
No money has changed hands yet... and some will decide other things...
but... ya better hurry and PM me to get in line...


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## Steadfast

Here are my 2nd gen birds which im selling...
If you are interested in buying and seeing more detailed photos of each...pm me...

Mind you, it is first come first served and there are 4 people in line now... Looking...


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## NYN1001

We are trying to get a flock started we had 8 out of 14 eggs hatch. I kept 3 hens and 1 rooster. I am interested in buying some. Please contact me at [email protected]


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