# Quality Control/Culling Question



## WeeLittleChicken

I would really like to get some Brabanters for a breeding project... So I looked around and it seems that there are people with them here in the US but most say, "It's a breed in progress" or they just have them without consideration for what they should really be. I have found some breeders selling eggs for $60-80 a dozen, which I wouldn't mind paying IF I knew I was getting quality but I'm feeling far less than reassured on that right now, especially since learning that all the Brabanter lines in the states originate at Ideal Poultry, a large hatchery who seems far more intent on pumping out large numbers than anything else. Funny enough they're only charging $3 a chick... I was told I could get Brabanters directly off them, the source, and just cull really hard to get the quality birds I needed for breeding... and I think that makes sense, but how many chicks would that mean I'd be ordering??


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## robin416

It could take a lot.

My suggestion is to order how ever many you can handle. Remove any that are obvious for defects at a young age. Remove more as they mature that are not meeting your expectations. And from the sounds of it they might be popular enough that you can sell them to someone else.

That said, just because you have what you want for breeding groups does not mean that they will produce what it is you're looking for. There are hidden genes that can show up in progeny that are not desirable. 

Building a breeding flock when you're looking for specific qualities takes time and a ton of patience. Some birds are still changing in appearance up to two years old.

Years ago I sold a cockeral about nine months old that looked like he'd never be anything. I saw a pic of him many months later and he was amazing looking.


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## Fiere

Making a show bird out of a hatchery line takes years and years and years and years and years. Most hatchery lines breed for egg production and high volume of chicks without the standard in mind, and the birds are either shadows of themselves or crossbreed. Imagine the horrendous quality of those birds if they're being sold at 3$ a chick? Only careful breeding, culling and a lot of knowledge and time to bring them back. And like Robin said, some genetics have throw backs in the lines whichever hidden then pop up a couple generations later. 

Buying them from a good source means that a lot of that work was done for you. Most good breeders that are still working on their lines wouldn't sell hatching eggs or chicks - only started birds, as you are primping your own breeding program from every hatch. Really, my suggestion is to find the best trio you can get your hands on and work up from there. Maybe add some hens from another source (keeping in mind those hidden genetics). Breed lots, cull hard, don't sell eggs or chicks but instead started birds that aren't of the quality you need for your breeding program.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Hmmm, that is food for thought. I do like challenges, have intense patience, and this is by no means an introduction to the breeding world (granted these will be the first chickens I have seriously done.) I don't mind at all that it'd take generations or years - however I chose to try. They lay a good deal of big white eggs for their size. Culls still make for fine laying hens if they're female. 

I don't know how long Brabanters have been in the US but by what I have seen it seems no one I found has had them more than a few years max and those are also the people who seem to have no goal or directive with them. So yes, the hatchery stock is probably abysmal, but so too would be the vast majority of all these people who got their originals off the hatchery too... I am going to try and find some people who are trying to improve them and see what they say. Curiously I have found no one with Gold Brabanters, only Cream. So if I chose gold I may have no other choice. (Why no golds? Are they new? Less desirable? I cannot figure this out... though I have seen lots of crossed/mixed from people selling hatching eggs AGAIN making me think that finding the perfect trio might take years in and of itself!) 

Another thing is that Brabanters have not been entered into any of the US shows yet so they have no US standard... which means I'd have to track down the Dutch standard and get a feel for what it means, and hope it's adopted when that time comes. This part intrigues me but I realize it could be an additional challenge.


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## robin416

Check out H and H Poultry in TX. It looks like they're pretty serious about their breeding program and might be a source. They have both gold and cream.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Updates! I managed to find some breeders working with Cream Brabanters and trying to breed them to standard but at $20 an egg and having incubator difficulty I thought this was not the right time to try this... Meanwhile the hatchery that they originate from were sold out for the year (according to their website) so I figured we'd put in an order for 100 and have a nice project next Spring. I sort of really liked the idea of having something to work on long-term.

Two weeks later, after having ordered other breeds from other hatcheries, we get a call they can fill our order. We weren't going to say no at that point so here we are! I ordered 100 Gold Brabanters hoping to get 15 OKish to breed and go from there... It's been a month.

Three arrived DOA. 14 others died in the first couple days, probably due to dehydration. They had crazy bad polyuria and went through over a gallon day in those first few days. (To put that in perspective they are only just now drinking that much now and they're a month old!) No idea why that happened but it cleared up with some electrolytes. Finally one died of Stupid Baby Syndrome at three weeks. (I ran out of regular food at midnight - then unloaded half the kitchen into the brooder, which was not their first time with fresh food. All the chicks had a feast except for this one who did nothing but stare at it all and cry. Died the next morning as I was on route to get food. UGH.)

So now we were down to 86... One ended up with scissorbeak. 85. Thirteen started feathering out and were obviously cream. I had been told not to focus on color when culling, to work on type first, however the creams have already been worked on by other breeders and theirs would likely be of far better quality than these. I decided to sell them off as culls - a few people looking for unusual layers are in the process of picking them up. So at one month of age we're down to 72, straight run, still unsure of their sexes.



















The scissorbeak... 









The Creams...


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## robin416

You might have a problem. I can not see the cross beak's beak well enough but if its the genetic one and there are others from the same breeder in that group you could have issues down the road. So, you are going to have to be diligent in your breeding program to weed out those that are carrying the gene.

And I was thinking as I'm reading, talk about jumping in with both feet and going big.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Yeeeah, I don't know if it's genetic... I separated him at around three weeks because I think he injured himself somehow, the other chickies were pecking at his cere and he was bloody. That healed just fine and I didn't find anyone else with injuries. However a few days later he developed the scissor in quarantine. I've never had scissorbeak so I don't know if it's developmental or if you can see it in young chicks...? But it definitely got worse with age.

I don't know if this photo is any better but I have been on the look out with his "siblings" 









If it's genetic that's annoying but it wouldn't be the first time I've had to "breed out" some negative quality. As for jumping in head first --- that would be my boyfriend's fault for encouraging me! I had researched it earlier, found a guy doing the same thing with a different breed from the same hatchery. He says he order 200 a year and in his first year he was too lenient in culling only 75%, now he culls 90%! But after five years he says he's got it down to a nice genetically diverse flock. I told my boyfriend this along with, "I'd like to start with 100..." and he removed any doubt I had. We she see!


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## robin416

Its possible the others caused it. The upper beak looks slightly twisted, was it? If so, then that's the genetic form. 

The problem you'll face is that you don't know who is carrying the gene, how many are carrying it if its the genetic form. Only in breeding will you be able to ascertain who it is carrying it. Unfortunately you'll have a bunch of chicks that you can't use.

But if its not then all should be fine. I experimented with one that was given to me that developed cross beak as she matured because the conversation had just happened that there was probably a non genetic form. I was able to prove there is indeed a non genetic form.

Leave it to our significant others to get us in deep.


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## OldBrickHouseFarm

Very good advice so far. As I understand it, the very old breed of Brabanter became extinct around 1900 and was recreated some 20 years later. The result was a smaller bird. 
In the US, the ALBC doesn't list them or their rarity. Likely because they weren't in the US in 1900.
It's the same for any extremely rare breed, especially one that has been reconstructed.

I found a telling and interesting statement on Greenfire's website about venturing into extremely rare birds:
*"What You Should Expect.* You should expect birds that reflect the fundamental attributes of the breed. You should not expect a cosmetically perfect bird. In fact, you should expect to find some defects in virtually every bird you raise. Just as every child is not destined to become a supermodel, every bird is not destined to win ribbons at shows. Only a tiny fraction of chickens conform to their breed standard in all respects. We do not represent that every bird we sell is show quality or is flawless. You should receive birds that can be the foundation for a breeding program that with enough time and skill can produce show-quality birds. You should also realize that the rarer the breed, the more likely you are to encounter problems related to inbreeding. For some breeds and varieties that we sell, the global breeding population consists of fewer than a dozen hens. We cull for obvious defects like crooked toes, but low fertility, low egg production, low disease resistance, and other challenges are not uncommon with extremely rare breeds. If you encounter these challenges when the birds become adults, you will need to address them with your own breeding plan. "

I've encountered the same thing with Black Penedesencas. Nearly extinct in the 1980s in Spain, they were brought back from the brink and had 3 other varieties added. There were a couple importations of eggs into the US and the starting gene pool was very small. Since then, Spain has gone the way of the "improved" variety. Larger but without white earlobes and dark eggs. There are still "classic" flocks there as well as in Germany and Ireland and a couple flocks in Canada. I easily had the largest flock in the US until mink destroyed 7 of my 8 flocks, setting back my breeding program at least 3 years. 
IMHO, if the most important genetics are there, you can start with hatchery stock or virtually anything and with time and due dilligence, can arrive at a nice bird.

As for Brabanters:
H&H in Texas sometimes has them. http://handhpoultry.com/index.html
Sunfaris Farms in Lees Summit, MO has creams. [email protected]
Sandhill Preservation has Gold.


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## WeeLittleChicken

I'm sad to say that after all this the Brabanters are just.... horrible. I really liked the idea of working with a breed and I thought this breed was it - I mean everything I read about them was a glowing review - they are friendly, intelligent, honk like geese, follow their owners around, are sweet, exceptionally docile, play well with others, forage well, and although they take 7 months to lay their first egg they more than make up for it by continuing to lay eggs until they're 5, sometimes 7 years old... large white eggs for such a small bird. Seemed perfect but now that I have them... UGH. They are not like that AT ALL. They're insane. 100% mental.

At first I thought they were flighty because they're just chicks, they've been sent through the mail, give them time to settle but they never settled, in fact they just grew worse. You'd think they'd get used to me as I was spending 2 hours a day down there with them feeding, watering, cleaning and handling them for more than 5 weeks but no... EVERY time I get near the box they totally freak out, they stampede, they scream, they try everything they can to stay away from the leper whose putting her dirty hands in the brood box! We had some unexpected delays getting them outside, so I was separating them into bigger grow out pens with less birds and more space. I thought this would help - less birds = less likely to panic? It didn't. Not one iota. If anything this just gave them a new irritating game to play - called Let's Fly Out of the Brood Box and then Scream Bloody Murder as Soon as our Feet Hit the Floor! This was followed by the second half of said game which was Let's Dart Under Furniture Trying Desperately To Get Away From Our Rescuer. One day I was down there 6 times in four hours. I ended up clipping the wings of the repeat offenders... not something I would normally resort to! But by golly can these things fly!!

Now they are in a horse stall in the barn with a handful of Cornish and some Welsummers and I must say they are every bit as horrible to these other birds as the are to me. They have taken over the whole stall, including all four feeders and waterer to the point the other breed chicks have to eat en masse, the whole group of them, to push the Brabanters away. They're aggressive and keep kicking and plucking the other chicks (who are bigger than them!) And I even witnessed one waiting until the Cornish fell asleep so it could run by full speed while trying to pluck out it's tail feathers!! Drive by plucking! What is that all about?!

I'm exceptionally dismayed. Pondering if I should just sell the lot and pretend I never had this idea. The other voice in my head says wait until they're a little older, maybe they'll calm down... or maybe I just ended up with a randomly psycho batch. I don't know. But I do know every time I go out into the barn there's the sound of a tiny stampede and a lot of screaming.... all trying to get away from me like I am Jack the Ripper! It's not an inspiring sight to behold. Maybe the Creams are the calm ones... there's rumors the Gold were created by crossing them with Spitzhaubens which don't appear to have that great of a reputation as far as temperament goes, but I've never met one so who knows. Maybe that's where I went wrong...

Stampede.....


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## robin416

I'm sorry, but I'm laughing at your tale of chicken terrors. That pic just sent me over the edge.

I really don't have any advice for you. I'm not familiar with the breed at all. There is that small chance they'll calm down but will they calm down enough? When I got my Hamburgs I was told they could be lunatics, I really never found that to be true not even as chicks. So, it could be breeding like you're wondering.


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## pabeavr

Bummer!! Im sorry I cant offer any advise either, but like robin, the picture was the cherry. They look like theyre wearing top hats too.


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## Fiere

This is why I like to get a trio or so of a breed I like, and try them out for a year. See what they're like to raise, hatch, and see if I like the line. If I like the breed but just don't like my birds, I'll get another line. If I just don't really like the birds I'll sell them or cull the rooster and put the girls in the laying flock - depending on quality. 

Sorry you don't like them. This reminds me of my Barnevelders. I absolutely LOVED the idea of breed. Searched high and low and finally found a quad of pet quality hens and bought them, then outsourced a rooster chick so I could try them. My hens are the complete opposite of what a Barnevelder should be and although I've met really stellar Barnes, I have lost interest in the breed trying to deal with these girls. My male was sweet but died very young so I didn't get a chance to breed them. Glad I didn't lol. If I decide to try them again I will source a much, much nicer line, hopefully their more manageable.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Well, I guess it's not all a loss if I get a good story out of it. I didn't even mention the part I found funny... The same evening I went and retrieved them on the floor 6 times in in four hours my boyfriend came home and I asked if he could retrieve the two that had just hopped out. I told him to flick the lights off too as it was 10PM. So he went down there, put the two back int he box, and then decided he'd fix the problem by folding the flaps of the box inward so if they landed on it they'd just slide back down. So he did that, flicked off the light, came back upstairs. Of course the chicks responded as they do every night when I turn off the lights - with an hour and a half of terror and screaming. On this night however the screaming was punctuated by what I can only describe as a sound halfway between a percussion band and an impossibly large batch of popcorn kernels exploding. Bang! Bang! Bang! "WHAT is going on down there?!" So he went back downstairs to find thirty of them had leapt like lemmings out of his new arrangement. Cue half an hour of chasing them down again. Now they are in the barn I am reluctant to release them into the pasture. I am not sure anything aside from a roofed enclosure can contain them as they seem insistent on escape. Unfortunately a roofed enclosure is NOT what I was looking to build! SIGH

Funny Barnevelders are mentioned. That's what we tried first a year ago - they were the breed my Dutch boyfriend grew up with back home. I hatched mine out of eggs - ended up with only two hatching, a rooster and a hen. They were bland and personalityless, the other chickens hated them, and they were the only large fowl I had that ended up with Marrecks, dying at 4 months. :/ (But this is normally how I do things - slowly but surely! This Brabanter thing was under encouragement! SIGH.)


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## WeeLittleChicken

So there's been an interesting development. I was looking at the Brabanters and I noticed a whole lot of them weren't developing beards or ear tufts (and a few didn't even have crests!) They looked like Spitzhaubens and worse yet I was hearing other people were having this problem with a lack of beards even in adult birds. So I decided to separate them out and sell the beardless ones, which turned out to be about 35 or so. After chasing them around for what felt like hours I had them separated into two horse stalls. I left after this for a few hours, came back, and the bearded Brabanters in the first horse stall seemed suddenly calm. It was weird. I thought perhaps cutting their population in half was the reason. Some of them even _walked up to me._ Dumb-founded. Even crazier, I got a photo of two sitting in my lap! By choice! It's an awful photo but it's evidence....










And then I went to stall #2, the beardless wonders and this happened....

"AHHHHHHHHHH! For the love of God RUN!!!" 









So apparently beards make Brabanters calm. (Here's a better photo I took earlier on in the day after shoving them in a dog crate to insure they couldn't run away from the camera...)


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## robin416

Your adventures with these guys is certainly entertaining. Now let's see what happens with the ones you kept.


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## LaylaFLora

That is my experience as well. I have 2 gold hens with no beards. They are extremely filghty. I have a cream roo and a cream hen--both bearded. They are both lap chickens. I bred the cream roo to the golds and hatched out 8 gold chicks. Only one of those was bearded and it was the sweetest most docile of the golds. I sold off six of the golds and only kept the bearded gold and one other.


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## WeeLittleChicken

It's nice to know I am not crazy! Things continue to progress with the Brabanters. I ended up with a lot of hens, a handful I believe are pretty decent considering, but I really didn't expect I'd have such a bum run of roos. None of the boys are as good as that handful of girls and now I am left to wonder who I should bother keeping. Here's a couple photos of the current keepers today - mind you they were not cooperating at all, as per usual...


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## robin416

I love that peeking around the corner pic. 

This is where it gets to be fun with the breeding, keeping records. Use your boys with the hens you find you're most satisfied with. See what their peeps look like. If you're not impressed switch them up.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Just figured I'd stop by for an update.... So I found a group on FaceBook for Brabanters and they've been exceptionally helpful but it appears I may have single handedly chosen the most complicated project I could have mustered... I posted photos of the 13 roosters I felt were halfway decent, hoping to whittle them down to maybe the 3 best individuals to keep... but there's been a hiccup.

Earlier when I was looking for birds I noted a lot of the pictures breeders had up looked rather iffy... well now I know why. According to a woman who has been breeding them for 8 years (and other breeds for a lot longer) she said the Brabanters are by far the most random when it comes to their offspring. Having two bearded and crested parents doesn't necessarily mean anything... and it sounds like a bit of a crapshoot. In fact it's so random it seems to hinge on the exact individuals involved. She suggested single pairings to see what works the best because apparently a rooster that makes stellar offspring with one hen might make total duds with another.

Soooo... it looks like I will be sewing some rooster collars so I don't cause too much of a problem with neighbors, and building some tractors, I mean honeymoon suites.... Does anyone have a good breeding program to suggest? I am used to writing these things down in a notebook but this looks like it might get too complicated for that!!

In case anyone is still following this in any detail here are the half-way decent roos. I was looking for: shapely forward-facing crests (a bit like a cockatoo if I am to make a comparison) full beards, even/symmetrical V-shaped crests, discreet wattles, white ear lobes, slate colored legs. Since none of the roosters have all of any of these qualities I didn't bother going further to critique their terrible coloration (some have WAY much black and none have "crescent moon shaped spangles" they're supposed to be known for.) I may take and post some photos of the hens (a couple even more decent than these roos) later. You wouldn't believe it but some of them are becoming... _personable._





































This one I have named Rasputin because of his thick black beard... Personally I think he's probably the best of the lot, if not second. 









This one's growing a mean streak and is -this- close to finding himself in the stew pot.


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## robin416

Zoo Easy is the only software that comes to mind for computer based software. But unless you're carrying a laptop around with you be prepared to makes paper notes any way.

All that you described is true of almost all the birds. That's why I recommend trying even an iffy bird with a nice bird. The genetics you can't see might combine to turn out stunning birds. 

Of course this is with Silkies, I found that they could be several years old before they reach their full potential in looks. One of mine was five before she ever grew a tail and top knot.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Well it's been a while since I updated this.... Suffice to say things are interesting around here... I have 17 breedable hens, 15 roosters. They're all still in the main yard with everyone else seeing as they mature ungodly slowly and probably won't lay until September or even later... In the meanwhile the roosters have taken it on themselves to form a band of chicken droogs. They are what I call chicken ****s. They spend their days attacking the hens, or anyone smaller than themselves. They're equal opportunists and will charge and attack anything that they think they can get away with - for instance they'll charge me if I am walking away from them, and I caught them today stalking some _sleeping_ ducks. Waking ducks are too feisty to attack, sleeping ones are apparently fair game. When they're not carrying out wanton violence they are standing in the middle of the paddock alarm calling - at falling leaves, at bugs that are too big, at the neighbors who are tending their own yard, and God forbid I ever do anything as obscene as weed the garden within view, or carry something, anything, in my hands. And in the few moments they are not doing either of these activities they are pulling each other's No Crow rooster collars off and giving long high pitched screeching crows that sound like nails on a chalkboard, so unlike the roosters I had in the past that had deep manly and dignified crows!

Preparing a bachelor pad for them so I can segregate them in hopes of them learning some damn manners. The roosters of other breeds out in the main yard have shown no aggression what-so-ever, it is wholly these little feather plucking velociraptors who literally run across the yard, full speed, head down EXACTLY like a velociraptor ALL DAY LONG. The rest of my birds now *completely ignore* their alarm calls and running, only occasionally looking up with an expression of, "What's wrong with them?"

While the boys continue to be little SOBs the girls are slowly coming around. I have a few very decent looking hens who also happen to be somewhat curious as to what I am up to. Today one flew onto my arm as I took pictures and scared the ever lovin' crap out of me. That's why in the photo I took my hands are making a fist like I am holding an eagle or something.

Here is the hen before trying to perch on my arm, showing some attitude to the camera while a rooster alarm calls in the background (a camera is a thing in my hands- best make sure everyone knows I have something!)










Here she is getting a closer inspection of the camera.... while Petunia photobombs the moment...










Here's Petunia and Lacy happy to have the camera's attention focused where it belongs....










Quite distracted that's when this hen jumped on my arm! Scared the bejesus out of me!










And for good measure this is one of the other very pretty hens...


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## robin416

OK, I'm laughing. Laughing a lot. 

The worst part is that I'm reading and thinking Guineas! She's describing Guinea behavior perfectly. Even the voice part, just that Guinea are more of a butt crack sound screamed very loudly.

Those pics are wonderful. Either the camera operator is one heck of a photographer or the girls really are attention hogs.

Last pic, watch that girl. That eye bothers me. She looks like she's not feeling up to snuff.

You won't regret the bachelor pen especially if you can get it done before the hormones really peak out. Your girls will need you to rescue them with all of those hormone raging males.


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## Fiere

You've got your work cut out for you! Breeding for type when the type has so many factors is difficult enough. Breeding for proper colour when the colour is so precise is another mountain to climb. You are looking for type and colour - plus these birds seem to be impossible to choose breeding stock since the pairing are trial and error...

You must really, really like the breed, that's all I can say. I'd be jumping ship haha!


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## WeeLittleChicken

I wish I could say it was a passion for the breed... then I'd have an excuse! But really I sort of openly despise the roosters and there's only 3 or 4 hens who are MILDLY friendly, and by that I mean they'll watch me from a distance (except that one on my arm! I don't know why that happened!) Granted they are amusing to watch dart around, they're never boring that's for sure! I was attracted to them for their feed efficiency as they're quite small but lay large white eggs, sometimes for five or seven years! And they had glowing reviews on how smart, curious, and friendly they were.... how could that possibly go wrong...? 

That all being said I think I am keeping going because I like the intellectual challenge and I want to know if they're freaks. My description of their behavior seems in stark contrast to most people's experience of them so I wonder if it is genetics or if they're a product of being raised in a chaotic lot of 100. I hold the hope that the chicks I raise from them will be calmer merely by not being raised in a swarm. My curiosity beats out here but if the second generation proves just as neurotic.... I just don't know! Probably will abandon ship at that point! Unless they really are that great on feed.... decisions decisions! My boyfriend, who was born in Brabant, was very happy to bring them on but now hates them... We are going back to the region at some point this year and I am contemplating meeting with a breeder out there to see what their cousins across the pond are really like! (I'm VERY curious!) 

This morning I separated out all the boys and was super annoyed to find some had had a sex change. There's 20 out there now! And three of the culls who I thought were hens and was keeping for laying eating eggs are looking really red this morning! Including the one who jumped on my arm! None of them have wattles or a comb so it's hard to say what's going on. I know hens turn kinda red when they are ready to lay but that means they'd be a few months early (having a 7 month POL.) I will keep my eye on them... *grumbles.* I have 4 or 5 with Polish-y looking crests, think I will cull them. 20 is just too much! Next time I will have two brood boxes set up and will feather sex them as soon as they're out of the egg!! This is apparently the only reliable way to do this unless you want to wait until they crow or drop an egg (both of which they won't do while you're looking at them so good luck there!) 

Good news is it's really quiet out there with the boys put away. There's no screaming coming from their victims and everyone seems super calm... even the roosters of other breeds seem to be breathing easier. SIGH. 

I don't think I am that great of a photographer, Petunia and Lacy the White Laced Red Cornish in that one photo are just puppy dogs. They're ALWAYS at my feet and love hugs and treats. There's six of that bunch and they're all total wusses, bigger than the other birds but picked on by everyone! The only reason they were out in the grass pasture that day was because they saw me out there and thought I'd be good protection! 

As for the last being squinty I think it was just the sun. That photo I took a week or two ago (the rest I took yesterday.) She's been alert and seemingly happy... what would I be looking for if she was off? Just lethargy? She's definitely not that!


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## robin416

Whatever you think of your photography you're finger is hitting that button at just the right moment. That first pic is so sweet. Makes you think that little girl is just the right personality to have in the flock.

I would be leaning to the one flying up to your arm as female. Females are so much more apt to do stuff like that than males. Except for the white leghorn all of my girls were the first to approach when I showed up, they were the only ones that ever flew up to have a discussion with us while we were sitting on the porch. The males? Never. 

There's no telling what they will ultimately end up like. I read that my Hamburgs were lunatics when it came to humans. Once they were adults I never found that to be true. I do still have two sisters, the one doesn't mind being picked up but her sister it's like the first time every time. Still she's not a lunatic on the ground when I'm around.

She might have had something in her eye that kept it from being nice and open and round. They don't usually squint in the sun, I think their eyes are better adapted at it than ours are. Being that this was a couple of weeks ago and she's fine then there is probably nothing to worry about. I just happened to catch that because the pic was so good.

It's always fun and a learning tool to read how others are doing with their breeding programs. And really fun to read about the challenges involved when it comes to personalities of the flock.


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## Fiere

My first go at sexing Id mark the ones I thought were male based on their feathers and grow them out. You'd hate to cull them and find out that your line is not as accurately sexed as claimed.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Oh I will definitely grow out the ones I feather sex to make sure. I have come to trust nothing with these deceptive little brats! That being said oh my God is it quiet out there since I separated the boys! The rest of the chickens all seem really chilled out and happy! And the Dorking roosters have undergone a sudden growth spurt. I guess even with 7 different feeding stations they were too timid to challenge the Brabs to eat... The Brabanter boys on the other hand are in full scale pouting mode at the moment. They let me know how unhappy they are by ALL going off at once, as loud as they can, every time they see me alarm calling. Sounds like a car alarm out there... I think some of the hens are coming around too. Maybe that's all it ever was - too much testosterone in the flock.


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## robin416

Sounds like it reduced a lot of stress, including the flock keeper.


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## chickens4me

Sounds like you are doing a great job so far. If you do decide to seperate them for breeding, 2 things come to mind. Get those colorful zip ties, and band the roosters. each a different color. Then band every chick that comes from that rooster the same color and you wont even have to seperate them in different brooders. You may have to put a bigger band on as they grow older, but it makes identifying a bird from a long way off a lot easier. I raised pidgeons for awhile, and kept a little card and a pencil in a plastic baggie stapled to their pen. Kept notes on when they bred, when they hatched, when they were weaned. It made life so much easier to have all that info right there on their cage, as opposed to in the house in a filing cabinet. Did that also with rabbits i used to raise. Those cards always will come in handy.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Oh yes on the stress reduction! I am indeed a happier keeper! Maybe this will be worth it! haha

And I heard about the zip ties... I wonder if they come in that many colors? Was thinking of doing that with the roosters, maybe naming them after their color for my written records, and using letters for the hens. Could lengthen the letters to names if I really wanted to but that would keep at least the first generation clearly defined. I used to use themes but this is too many themes to keep track of! 

I used the rabbit cards before when I was breeding rats. They are indeed very useful!


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## robin416

I've got some out in the garage, I'll check after dinner to see how many colors they came in. That's if I didn't use up all of one color. You could do double colors if you run out.

And here I thought I was the only one to come up with that card in a zip lock bag idea.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Well.... 20 roosters is just too many. Damn things go off like a car alarm, mimic each other, and before you know it there;'s 20 birds alarm calling for 45 minutes. UUUUGH. Anyone in New England want these handsome boys?? I got five marked as dinner, three more as possible dinner, then I think I am OK...










Meanwhile I am starting to really enjoy my hens. They're sort of hilarious. Some of them have taken to following me around and one will stalk you until she feels it's safe to jump on your shoulders - but don't look at her or she'll run away in terror! Their facial expressions are..... well, here's some photos. Some might do well with captions.

Joining the Rockettes?










Doing the Hokey Pokey...










Smelling the flowers....










A bit of juicy gossip...










Annnnd more contemplation...


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## robin416

The boys are probably going to quiet down as they mature. Right now they're probably vying for standing on who can save the flock first even when nothing is worth alarming about.

OK, think this is the same one that flew up on your arm? And once she's up there does she stay?


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## WeeLittleChicken

Sure, she'll stay up there as long as you don't look at her. I don't know if she thinks we don't notice there's a passenger on our back/arm or...?? My boyfriend named two of them that seem to follow us around a lot, the arm percher is Diane and the one with no crest or beard ended up being a Rachel. The rest are just still sort of random and funny.


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## robin416

Strange little creatures. If I was till in the chicken raising business I might have to have myself some of those.

BTW, I checked my small zip ties. I did use up the other colors and the label is too faded to read the colors that used to be in the packet.

Head Tuck has her zip tie on for nearly nine years now. So they do last forever.


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