# Fermented Feed chick crumbles would not work? Another FF : (



## ianmack (Jan 7, 2014)

My chickens are now 6 weeks old. Have been having chick "starter"19% protein crumbles (medicated with amprolium to prevent coccidiosis) and now they have moved outside, and I have found this forum they have been having fermented feed made with 18% protein non medicated "grower" crumbles, as well as the dry starter. (Meal worms, grit, scrambled eggs, free to run amongst the bush land and other treats also) 

Anyway!!!!! I'm using the non medicated next step grower crumbles and some wheat and cracked corn for making FF as it has no amprolium medication. I'm thinking that using the medicated feed would alter the fermentation process as it is anti bacterial and protozoal???? Just wondering. Anyone know?

Doesn't really matter as my girls are growing fast and are beautiful. They love their food. Just thought I'd ask to see if maybe people should not use medicated feeds for FF!


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

This is a quote from Bee on the Fermented Feed thread. 

"You won't need that medicated feed at all...no one does. But, if you don't want to waste it and would rather feed it out, go ahead and throw it in the bucket. I'm not a big fan of inhibiting thiamine uptake, which the medicated feeds do, but it will soon be gone and you won't have wasted the money.

Then you can feed the correct level of thiamine the rest of their lives! "


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## ianmack (Jan 7, 2014)

Ok thanks.


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## kessy09 (Jun 16, 2013)

Fermenting chick starter works just fine. It definitely does not inhibit the process. It is not anti-bacterial. The coccidiostat in it is strictly to kill any protozoal parasites but it won't do anything to bacteria (good or bad). 

Bee's recommendation is based on the fact that she doesn't incubate eggs and keep the chicks indoors. Her chicks are bought after hatching or hatched from a broody hen. This means that the chicks are exposed to coccidiosis in the environment from day one. They are able to build up an immunity to from their early exposure. Chicks that are raised inside or separate from the flock do not have this early exposure and thus no immunity to it. Once you toss them out they are suddenly overwhelmed with a parasite they've never been exposed to. I've always raised my chicks inside on medicated chick starter and continue until they have been out with the flock for two weeks. There have been a couple situations in which I didn't have medicated starter and so instead cut a piece of sod out from where the chickens spend their time and put it in my brooder box. This also gives the babies a small but controlled exposure to the coccidiosis so that they can try to build up a natural immunity. So basically my rule of thumb is if they are raised inside then medicated chick starter, raised outside or have access to outside then no medicated starter. But, either feed ferments the same.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

I think what Bee's recommendation is based on is the fact that the FF should counteract what the amprollium in the med. chick starter will try to accomplish (inhibit thiamine uptake) the FF will increase thiamine and other essential nutrients so much that it may counteract that action. The LABs and acetobacter bacilli in the FF will inhibit the overgrowth of coccidia, so the medicated feed is entirely unnecessary. I used to do the same thing kessy09 is doing now, brooding indoors and taking them outside. I built a much larger brooder outside in the barn and the medicated feeds didn't do the trick anymore. I started fermenting their feed while still using the medicated starter and was still loosing chicks. I stopped using medicated starter and began using non medicated starter for the chicks FF and it has made a world of difference. I do think they were counteracting each other. She is correct, you don't need medicated starter if you ferment. Just fermenting alone has increased the health of my whole flock.


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## kessy09 (Jun 16, 2013)

Any good bacteria created during the fermentation process is a great thing in its own regard, but it won't do anything to prevent or treat coccidiosis. Coccidiosis is not a bacteria, therefore it is not affected by pro or anti biotics. The thiamine depletion isn't really a huge concern with medicated chick starter. The amount of medication in the feed isn't enough to create that issue in the first place. Now giving chickens straight doses of Amprol (Corid) then that is when it's an issue and a vitamin supplement should be used after the treatment. Fermenting medicated feed has no effect on the medication in the feed, and it makes the nutrients and protein more available to the chicks. It maintains the benefits of being fermented as well as the benefits of being medicated.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

I'm just saying in MY situation that my chick losses went down when I switched to non medicated. The Lactic Acid Bacteria and acetobacter bacilli in the FF do inhibit the overgrowth of coccidia obviously.


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## kessy09 (Jun 16, 2013)

Yes, they definitely inhibit growth of coccidia. But not coccidiosis. They are two different things. Your situation is interesting. Maybe your losses went down because the chicks were beginning to build resistance to the coccidiosis. Or maybe you didn't even have coccidiosis in your environment to begin with and it really was just coccidia you were dealing with (which explains why fermenting feed would help and medicated chick starter would not). The only two things that will get rid of or prevent coccidiosis is a coccidiostat or natural immunity. I truly don't intend to come across as argumentative. I just think it's interesting and animal nutrition is very close to my heart, it's been my life for the last seven years and I'm always keen to join discussions on it.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

Infection with the coccidia parasite is called coccidiosis, but yes they are two different things. By inhibiting the growth of coccidia you are stopping the coccidiosis. Fermenting might not change the effect of the medication, but it does raise the thiamine that the bird receives so it seems like it would counteract what the medications are trying to accomplish, which is lower the thiamine level.


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## kessy09 (Jun 16, 2013)

I need to do a bit more research on this topic to be able to fully grasp all the possibilities. In my personal experience, fermenting medicated starter has been just as effective as not fermenting it. And when it wasn't available, raising them with grass in their brooder from outside to build a slow immunity was also just as effective. Some people do neither but strenuously and rigorously cull their weak birds to build very strong and disease resistant flocks and that also seems to be pretty effective. To each their own I guess.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

I am glad the medications are working for you. In my situation, my chicks are in a brooder, in the same barn as grown chickens. Just the dust from the rest of the coop is enough to spread it to the chicks so they are exposed to coccidia at day two. I have very few chick losses with no medication and I like that.


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