# when to dust for bugs



## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I do have a group of 5 month olds. When should I dust them for bugs and worm them? Do they need it now?


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> I do have a group of 5 month olds. When should I dust them for bugs and worm them? Do they need it now?


Dont dust them unless you see external parasites on them. Pick them up and visually inspect them when you get a chance, that's the only way to know for sure. If they have their own coop, inspect it also, preferably at night with a flashlight.
If they're on soil, go ahead and worm them with your valbazen, reworm again in 10 days.
Large roundworms do the most internal damage within the first 5 months.
I start worming birds at 5-6 weeks old.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Really. The worms don't waste any time, do they. Thanks.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> Really. The worms don't waste any time, do they. Thanks.


Friend of mine lost a 12 week old to roundworms.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

casportpony said:


> Friend of mine lost a 12 week old to roundworms.


Thanks for scaring the pants off me!!!  . Okay, they'll get wormed. Good idea.


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## Alaskan (Aug 22, 2015)

Crazy!!!


I guess you'll are overrun with parasites because you both live in swampy areas???


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Alaskan said:


> Crazy!!!
> 
> I guess you'll are overrun with parasites because you both live in swampy areas???


My friend that lost his chick lives on 160 acres in KS.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Well I had one death last year , a silkie who was necropsied and had capillaria, cocci, E.coli, and enteritis. I did not know that to kill capillaria I needed to dose twice 10 days apart. Once was not enough to kill them. Sad lesson learned. I think I will also be stepping up my worming to every 3 months at least for a while.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Yes, Valbazen twice ten days apart, which is why I think it's so much better than Safeguard. To treat capillary worms with Safeguard you have to give a massive dose (1.5ml for a six pound hen) for *5* consecutive days!


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## MichaelA69 (Sep 5, 2015)

Generally, I've never had to deworm until they are 4-5 months of age. The breeds I raise get feathered at around 4-5 weeks, and since I rear chicks in Spring, it is warm enough here in California. Helminth vectors such as beetles, earthworms, slugs, snails, etc. are usually the conductors. I keep grass cut and brush cut back to lessen the population.

Chickens will eventually get worms no matter if you keep them long enough for enjoyment rather than fried chicken, so it is good to always watch their weight and pay attention to droppings under the roost in the morning. I use a high powered headlamp and do a quick pick up each morning. 

You can see cecal worms with a naked eye in sunlight squirming around in a cecal dropping. many amateurs think because they never see tape segments or roundworms in droppings, that there birds are free of worms. Not true. Cecal worms and capillary worms are very difficult to see without magnification.

When I give a wet mash, I only give enough they will eat it up in 5-10 minutes as to not attract flies and other pests. Dry yards and coops are not only good for their respiratory system to prevent ammonia fumes, but also keep the insects out, and doing a quarterly treatment of housing, I've found to be very effective prevention over time. I don't use powders, only emulsified concentrates due to their penetration and longer residual. There are many effective ones labeled safe for use on and around poultry.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Good info Michael. Worms can infect birds at an early age, 5-6 weeks old IF they are on soil. Capillary worms are almost impossible to see with the naked eye and are killers due to their shear numbers. Many folks check or treat for worms ONLY when they see worms in feces. The only time a worm leaves its host is if it dies naturally, or there's no more room in the digestive tract and it has only one way to go, and that's out the rear end. Unfortunately that's when people worm their birds. There's a lot of internal damage done by the time a person sees a worm in feces. The worms absorb nutrients through their skin and suck blood absorbing nutrients. Worms excrement makes birds sick, it is toxic to their host. The combination of starvation due to nutrient loss and toxic worm excretions can kill the bird. If there's an infestation of large roundworms, intestinal blockage can occur causing toxic dead worm overload which will kill a chicken. Once worms are paralyzed or killed by worming or by natural death, the intestinal lining is scarred which can prevent proper nutrient absorption. Weakened birds are susceptible to bacterial, viral, and fungal infections as well.
Also when one type of worm is seen in feces, a large roundworm for example; it's safe to say other types of worms will be present as well. This is why a broad spectrum wormer would be best. Of course a fresh fecal sample can be taken to a vets office for testing. My experience is that a bottle of a broad spectrum wormer is cheaper than a trip to the vet with fecal samples. 
Here where I live, I worm my birds monthly. Our soil is warm most of the year. This summer we've had rain almost every day. This is a recipe for worm soup and requires frequent worming. Additionally I keep my birds penned, they dont free range. Penned birds need to be wormed frequently.
Folks living in dry areas of the country may not need to worm as frequently. Trying to keep everything as dry as possible helps deter all kinds of problems when it comes to chicken keeping. Mold and fungus are other issues we have to deal with too. Sunlight and proper ventilation prevent those problems.
Anyone who believes that their birds cant or dont get worms are mistaken. There are all kinds of microbes in the soil no matter where we live, including nematodes.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

You worm monthly? Maybe I should too with all the moisture, humidity, and no real winter.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> You worm monthly? Maybe I should too with all the moisture, humidity, and no real winter.


Yes, I worm once a month.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> You worm monthly? Maybe I should too with all the moisture, humidity, and no real winter.


 I've seriously thought about raising birds on wire in the future. I have to think about it some more.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

I'm about to put my 3 month old peachicks on the dirt and thinking maybe I'll deworm them once a month and see if that helps me avoid more blackhead.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Dawg, those poor chickens would not get to scratch and peck if there's wire. That's their whole life, well that and eating and laying. 

I would have to wonder about worming once a month and building resistance against the wormer, or actually letting a chicken build whatever resistance they do against worms. 

Which wormers kill worms and which wormer just paralyses them so they get flushed out?


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Resistance is something I worry about, so I need to look into rotation options that will treat the cecal worm.


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## MichaelA69 (Sep 5, 2015)

If there aren't range rotation options, like Mr. Dawg, I prefer adding sand over time to the soil in my yard. Droppings dry out and can be raked up periodically. It prevents a muddy mess in the Winter too. Adding oyster shell flower with a spreader before it rains,then raking it in the soil helps somewhat with the build up of bad bacteria. Some people use agricultural lime but you need to keep the birds out of it until it is worked into soil and watered. Otherwise it can burn their feet. 

I have raised chicks on .5" PVC coated wire while in the brooder, but believe it is hard on their feet. I want them to build immunity to other things by getting out on range. There is no immunity to increased populations of helminths though, and they will always be around. The drier the climate, the population decreases. The fewer vectors and buildup of droppings, the less likely chickens will suffer from parasitic worms. Parasitic worm eggs are resilient and are not destroyed by most disinfectants. They can live for weeks or months in soil depending on climatic conditions. Sunlight and well draining soil certainly decreases the amounts.


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## MichaelA69 (Sep 5, 2015)

casportpony said:


> Resistance is something I worry about, so I need to look into rotation options that will treat the cecal worm.


Wild birds, earthworms, and rodents are notorious for carrying cecal worms. The less contact they have with those critters, the better off they are:
http://www.elanco.us/pdfs/cecal-worm-fact-sheet.pdf


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I think agricultural lime is non burn. Most of the stuff you buy is calcium carbonate (like the calcium in chicken feed). It does not burn. The stuff that burns is called hydrated lime. That's actually made in a kiln and not chipped away from some lime mountain or limestone. I just mix my lime in a bit and don't worry about it.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Worm resistance in poultry is a myth. Worms have been an age old problem and still are; not only in birds, but in mammals and humans as well. There are many types of worms that chickens can get as well as in other animals. Even if one type of worm is tolerated by birds or in other animals, the other types of worms will still require treatment.
As far as wormer resistance goes, rotating wormers is best. My experience has been that ivermectin and eprinex are no longer effective in treating for worms and are even ineffective in treating some types of poultry mites due to resistance. I recently found out from personal experience that sevin dust failed to treat a minor case of tropical fowl mites and lice, and successfully used permethrin. 
The benzimidazole group of wormers are the best types of wormers to use in poultry, specifically albendazole which also treats lower forms of protozoas such as giardia. Pyrantal pamoate, hygromycin B found in Rooster Booster triple wormer are also very good wormers for poultry. With all these wormers available, there's no need to worry about worm resistance. I use valbazen, safeguard and pyrantal pamoate. I also use wazine on occasion and praziquantel strictly for tapeworms. These wormers are very safe to use given the proper dosages. People worry about withdrawal periods; a small price to pay for healthy birds. Wormy birds get sick and dont lay eggs and eventually die from worms, no hens...no eggs.
Like Michael mentioned, once birds get worms, the eggs are excreted onto and into the soil and some types of worm eggs can remain in the soil for years. Like cocci, the eggs are encased in a hard shell and can survive in harsh climates and extreme temperatures.
It's been raining hard here just about every day for the past week. We got 4 inches of rain in one afternoon the other day, both chicken pens flooded and it was and still is a nasty mess despite the sand in the pens. The chickens have been drinking the nasty water. I have one hen in molt. The water finally absorbed in the ground and I've started a one week preventative corid treatment. I wormed my birds 2 weeks ago and they will get wormed the first week in October. It's raining again and I've placed tarps around the outside base of the chicken pens and it seems to be working well by keeping the water out of the pens. I'm also using drop down tarps as curtains to keep rain from coming in sideways. I wish this northeaster would blow on out of here.


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## CharlieEcho (Nov 25, 2012)

*Sevin;*

In another thread yesterday someone posted that Sevin doesn't work for mites or lice. Sevin does not list these mites on their labels. Yet, two Vets and our Cooperative extension recommend Sevin to control mites and lice. We use Sevin in nesting boxes below the "new" bedding. We use Sevin on the dirt floor prior to placing new straw. The straw quickly breaks down from the traffic and our chickens dust themselves on the floor.

We also as needed spray with Malathion/Permethrin. I use a coarse spray on the ceilings and walls. This allows the mist or droplets to fall also covering the floor and the roosts. Knocking on wood we have not yet had problems with mites or lice in our many years with chickens. I suppose kerosine could be painted on roosts, or creosote. If you've ever used creosote, I don't imagine you would like it.

For control of worms, we make all our water in rubber or plastic tubs available with a tablespoon of Apple Cider Vinegar per gallon of water. Can't use it in the metal fonts due to corrosion. The vinegar is supposed to give the gut and acid environment unfavorable to worms. Our birds prefer the vinegar water to just water.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

We've used sevin dust since the 60's in our vegetable gardens, on our dogs, and chickens to control and treat for all kinds of insects and animal parasites without any problems. That is until last month when I observed a mite and several lice crawling in a paper grocery bag containing sevin dust that I had used to "shake and bake" my chickens the previous day. I used sevin dust in the coops and nest boxes also, then saw several lice crawling the very next day in the nest boxes. Obviously the parasites have built resistance to the carbaryl contained in the dust. I was in shock when this occured. I have never had sevin dust fail me and have recommended it to others all the time.
I then went to the hardware store and purchased permethrin dust and redusted everything except for the chickens. I put Advantage ll on them and havnt had any problems since.
I'm not saying sevin dust doesnt work for everyone. I'm just explaining my recent experience with sevin dust...something to be aware of...possibly eventual resistance to the product. I've recommended malathion to treat infestations of stick tight fleas, but I've never had to use it.
As far as ACV goes...I've used it and I can assure you that it does not prevent nor treat worms.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Charlie, I have Malathion for palm mites. I didn't realize it could be used in coops. Does the spray kill them, or is the dry residual effect good?

Dawg, I have noticed the same thing with Sevin. It's just not doing it. My last hen had lice and was dusted 3 days in a row, and still had a bunch of lice running around on her. So then I got out the horse spray (Permethrin), and sprayed everyone's vent area . 

Is Advantage II safe? Small bird sites have this mite stuff called "scatt" that's for mites. Wonder if that would work. Or if there would be enough in a bottle.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

I've never heard of Scatt. I read that it contains moxydectin for air sac mites and scaly face mites. I've used Quest Plus equine gel wormer which contains moxidectin and praziquantel. I used it to treat tapeworms. Dosing has to be accurate for chickens though, there's a low tolerance level with it and I prefer zimectrin gold which is more safe. Notice the spelling difference between the two products. "Moxy" and "Moxi"...I suppose the "moxy" doesnt treat for worms, not sure though.
Here's a link regarding malathion mixtures, scroll down to "PESTICIDE SOLUTIONS:"
http://msucares.com/poultry/diseases/solutions.html
Here's a link regarding malathion residual effectiveness:
http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/repositoryfiles/ca901p13-58988.pdf
Advantage ll for small dogs (11-20lbs) is safe for chickens. I only use ONE drop on bare skin on the back of the neck. Using more than one drop per bird may or may not be harmful. It's effective on dogs for 30 days, so it's probably the same for chickens. I do NOT use it on a regular basis, only when there's an external parasite issue.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Scatt is something I found for canaries when I thought mine had mites. I think it is moxidectin sold on cage bird sites. It's a drop or two or three on a thigh. Quest gel and Zimectrin Gold is what I worm my horse with rotated with Ivermectin, and a yearly 5 day course of Safeguard.

Be real careful with moxidectin. Yea Zimectrin Gold is a lower dose. It's one of those wormers that have a narrower safety margin than Ivermectin, or Safeguard.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> Scatt is something I found for canaries when I thought mine had mites. I think it is moxidectin sold on cage bird sites. It's a drop or two or three on a thigh. Quest gel and Zimectrin Gold is what I worm my horse with rotated with Ivermectin, and a yearly 5 day course of Safeguard.
> 
> Be real careful with moxidectin. Yea Zimectrin Gold is a lower dose. It's one of those wormers that have a narrower safety margin than Ivermectin, or Safeguard.


Ditto. I figured you had experience with the equine wormers and knew what I was talking about lol.


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## MichaelA69 (Sep 5, 2015)

I've used Malathion and it is effective, but hate the smell of it. Bifen IT is a great premise insecticide and has a 2-3 month residual but shouldn't be used on birds. Ravap EC and Atroban EC work very well and can be used as a dip or spray for birds as well as a premise spray.


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## MichaelA69 (Sep 5, 2015)

Selamectin is effective on _*Knemidokoptes*_ mites because it is activated in the subaceous glands. Not sure of dosage for Selamectin but would be worth finding out since it would be a more effective treatment for air-sac mites/knemidokoptes mites. Moxydectin won't do much for surface parasites, much like like Ivermectin. I always laugh at all the so called worm and mite treatments containing Ivermectin that are marketed to bird fanciers by companies. The companies selling it should be laughed out of business because they are just ripping people off. Ivermectin won't deworm or rid birds of mites or lice.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

You know Dawg, I can't live in Florida without my Ortho Home Defense. Residual for a year and a bug just has to walk across it. One of my sheds had so many roaches in it that the walls moved. I couldn't go in there at night. I had some Home Defense, an almost empty container. I sprayed all along the inside perimeter. And around the doors, and just wasted the rest spraying here and there. A few roaches the next day. None 2 days later and it lasted for about a year. Same with a cabinet I have tools in. I will spray it in the coop, but not on the shavings or on their roost. It's pet safe once it dries, but I don't think they were thinking about chicken feet.

Interesting story about Moxidectin. My mule seemed to have these itchy bumps all over her chest, neck and front legs and seasonal grew to all year. She would rub herself raw and bloody. 

Someone said they had a "miracle" cure. She said to buy zimectrin gold or quest gel, and dose her, 30 days later dose her again. What do you know. They went away for the first time in 4 years. So she got quest every spring . Thing is those bumps were caused by bugs. But the bugs were laying eggs under the skin and that made the bump. It was sure interesting and to this day most people I talk to won't even try it. Oh well.

Other real funny (to me) is that everyone's horse is suffering from rain rot or itch or whatever skin ailment. There's about 28 here. Except for mine. Mine is the only one who also does not get a bath on a regular basis. In fact, she's lucky to see suds once a year. She gets brushed and she's been sponged down with some minty menthol water in the heat. But I've always believed in not stripping their natural defenses away. She has lovely skin. No one admits that they believe me about that too.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

MichaelA69 said:


> Selamectin is effective on _*Knemidokoptes*_ mites because it is activated in the subaceous glands. Not sure of dosage for Selamectin but would be worth finding out since it would be a more effective treatment for air-sac mites/knemidokoptes mites. Moxydectin won't do much for surface parasites, much like like Ivermectin. I always laugh at all the so called worm and mite treatments containing Ivermectin that are marketed to bird fanciers by companies. The companies selling it should be laughed out of business because they are just ripping people off. Ivermectin won't deworm or rid birds of mites or lice.


Yea, I don't think Ivermectin is a wonder drug. I've used it for years on my horse because it supposedly doesn't make worms resistant. But here in Florida, I don't leave anything to chance. I think it does work on chicken worms, but there's just some missing piece that is why it's not known to be trusty. Maybe it has something to do with how a chicken body utilizes. Or maybe the problem is that chickens get worms quicker than horses or dogs, and that's why it builds resistance so fast. Do you have any studies on it ?


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## Alaskan (Aug 22, 2015)

I am also a believer in not regularly bathing horses. I think the natural oils in their skin is important.

I think brushing them regularly is needed... But not soap.

With that said... The mane though.... I kinda like those detangling conditioner things for the mane.

Seminole... I wonder though, with those horses with the rain rot or whatever.... If it is the fact that the bathing is washing away the natural oils... Or if all of that bathing just keeps them too wet!


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

I learned this the hard way about ivermectin:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1439-0450.1989.tb00635.x/abstract


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

I prefer not to use sprays in our yard (but I will if I have to.) We have hordes of lizards and they pretty much take care of bugs during the day and the toads take care of bugs at night. You can tell toads have been feasting during the night because they leave about a 1" long turd on the sidewalk or driveway. The lizards attract garden snakes and black snakes, but they are quickly dispatched. We have two large sheds and I put a couple of those roach baits in them, no problem with roaches. Flies have been an issue in the pens due to the wet soil. Vanilla scented Christmas tree car air fresheners took care of that problem. As a matter of fact I've got to go buy some more today. Advance auto parts sells them and they work....makes the pens smell better too lol. We've had flood watches all week for the southeast Georgia and northeast Florida coastal counties, same for today and more rain on the way grrrr.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

MichaelA69 said:


> Selamectin is effective on _*Knemidokoptes*_ mites because it is activated in the subaceous glands. Not sure of dosage for Selamectin but would be worth finding out since it would be a more effective treatment for air-sac mites/knemidokoptes mites. Moxydectin won't do much for surface parasites, much like like Ivermectin. I always laugh at all the so called worm and mite treatments containing Ivermectin that are marketed to bird fanciers by companies. The companies selling it should be laughed out of business because they are just ripping people off. Ivermectin won't deworm or rid birds of mites or lice.


Here's info on Selamectin dosage, aka Revolution which may require a prescription. I've never used it.
http://forum.backyardpoultry.com/viewtopic.php?t=7959783


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

I nearly killed one of mine last year with one of the products that I used in rotation for mites. It appears that as they age, in this instance ten years old, they also become more sensitive to the products we use. So far I can safely use permethrins or permectrin on him but not anything else without knocking his feet out from under him.

Mites are becoming resistant to Ivermectin due to its over use. It happened in Europe years ago and now it appears to be happening here.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> Yea, I don't think Ivermectin is a wonder drug. I've used it for years on my horse because it supposedly doesn't make worms resistant. But here in Florida, I don't leave anything to chance. I think it does work on chicken worms, but there's just some missing piece that is why it's not known to be trusty. Maybe it has something to do with how a chicken body utilizes. Or maybe the problem is that chickens get worms quicker than horses or dogs, and that's why it builds resistance so fast. Do you have any studies on it ?


There is a study that shows it doesn't work (see the link in dawg's post), and there is a study that shows it does work, but in that study they had to give way more than the normal amount used, so the summary said that it should not be recommended.


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## MichaelA69 (Sep 5, 2015)

dawg53 said:


> I prefer not to use sprays in our yard (but I will if I have to.) We have hordes of lizards and they pretty much take care of bugs during the day and the toads take care of bugs at night. You can tell toads have been feasting during the night because they leave about a 1" long turd on the sidewalk or driveway. The lizards attract garden snakes and black snakes, but they are quickly dispatched. We have two large sheds and I put a couple of those roach baits in them, no problem with roaches. Flies have been an issue in the pens due to the wet soil. Vanilla scented Christmas tree car air fresheners took care of that problem. As a matter of fact I've got to go buy some more today. Advance auto parts sells them and they work....makes the pens smell better too lol. We've had flood watches all week for the southeast Georgia and northeast Florida coastal counties, same for today and more rain on the way grrrr.


I agree. I only use a treatment in coops to prevent mites. I've always been fond of frogs, toads, lizards. I've saved a few from my chickens. Florida must have loads of amphibians and reptiles. The only snake I'd wipe out here would be rattlers. The garters, ring-necks, kings, and gopher snakes have never been a problem, and unfortunately see much less of them these days. Lots of damn gophers though.


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## CharlieEcho (Nov 25, 2012)

*Free;*



dawg53 said:


> As far as ACV goes...I've used it and I can assure you that it does not prevent nor treat worms.


You're entitled to your opinion. I'll look forward to your book. As for me, I'll stick to using ACV as well as wood ash. People raised chickens and other poultry without the use of chemicals and drugs for centuries. Old methods still have their place, even though I do use chemicals with restraint. A little prevention goes a long way toward treatment. Thank you very much.


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## MichaelA69 (Sep 5, 2015)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *dawg53*  
_As far as ACV goes...I've used it and I can assure you that it does not prevent nor treat worms._



CharlieEcho said:


> You're entitled to your opinion. I'll look forward to your book. As for me, I'll stick to using ACV as well as wood ash. People raised chickens and other poultry without the use of chemicals and drugs for centuries. Old methods still have their place, even though I do use chemicals with restraint. A little prevention goes a long way toward treatment. Thank you very much.


Do you have any trial references from any university poultry science departments stating wood ash and apple cider vinegar prevents/treats intestinal worms?


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

I wonder how common five year old chickens were in the 1800's?


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## MichaelA69 (Sep 5, 2015)

casportpony said:


> I wonder how common five year old chickens were in the 1800's?


I have 3 hens in my old flock which will reach 10 years as of March of 2016. 2 are Wyandottes and one is an Australorp. Both are healthy, active, and still get eggs from them occasionally.


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