# What A Mess



## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

Today, I let Biscuit out of her cage to walk around the porch a little. I went back inside to get something, and as I was coming out back into the porch, Biscuit did her little head bob//twitch where she pulls it back into her body...then, she went crazy. She backed up and bumped into the couch, then she was blinking quite a lot and flapping like crazy. She was staggering and stumbling and flapping into the air...it was horrible to watch. It looked like she was having a chicken seizure or just going out of control! I went outside to tell my brother what happened, then as I was going back inside, I saw her have another "seizure". She doesn't fall during these episodes, just stagger and basically lose control of her reflexes. I think it may be a neurological disorder. All of our current chickens are vaccinated against Merek's, so the little contact she had with them will (hopefully, dear lord) not transmit anything she may have.
I called McMurray hatchery and they said "Yes, that's not normal, would you like a refund or replacement?" and I said replacement so they are going to send me a new Buff Orpington pullet the 27th of November...however, I think I may cancel and get a refund and instead purchase another breed that may be a little bit more less prone to bullying, since Biscuit is small, blond, and submissive. What do you think? Could you guys suggest a breed as good as an Orpington, like maybe a red star or RIR?
Thanks.


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## Nm156 (May 16, 2015)

I already voiced my opinion on the blonde birds.


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

Nm156 said:


> I already voiced my opinion on the blonde birds.


True, but red birds aren't very similar either...but they are less submissive to other birds. I think I'll cancel and get another breed...which one is better, a RIR or Red Star/ISA brown?


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## Nm156 (May 16, 2015)

If i remember correctly you have 3 predominately black birds?

That old saying "birds of a feather flock together".


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

Nm156 said:


> If i remember correctly you have 3 predominately black birds?
> 
> That old saying "birds of a feather flock together".


I have a golden laced Wynadotte, an Australorp, and a barred rock. I'll see if they have dark birds...the closest would be an RIR, but I heard they were aggressive and not friendly.


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## chickenqueen (Jan 9, 2016)

What are you going to do about Biscuit?May I suggest you get 2 Buffs,it will be easier on all involved.BO's are very nice birds.Next time let the new "chill" for a few days to get over the stress of handling and transportation and 2 birds in the box might do better than one lonely chicken.I have a nursery that I put new birds in.They can see the adults and the adults can see the chicks for a couple of months before turning them loose to integrate into the flock.Birds of a different feather can get along but it takes time and patience.I have 30 chickens, most were raised as day olds or hatched by me, and half my flock is black.A BO deflected from next door to my flock,she's the only BO and does fine.It was like she was always there.Then,I found a RIR(?) at a state park and brought her home.She's the only RIR and she does fine.They hang out together but it took time for the old to accept the new and both were adults.If you can,get two,Christmas is coming up......


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Yes what will you do with biscuit.
All my birds are black and black/white/green . They all hey along being the same colors and temperment


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

chickenqueen said:


> What are you going to do about Biscuit?May I suggest you get 2 Buffs,it will be easier on all involved.BO's are very nice birds.Next time let the new "chill" for a few days to get over the stress of handling and transportation and 2 birds in the box might do better than one lonely chicken.I have a nursery that I put new birds in.They can see the adults and the adults can see the chicks for a couple of months before turning them loose to integrate into the flock.Birds of a different feather can get along but it takes time and patience.I have 30 chickens, most were raised as day olds or hatched by me, and half my flock is black.A BO deflected from next door to my flock,she's the only BO and does fine.It was like she was always there.Then,I found a RIR(?) at a state park and brought her home.She's the only RIR and she does fine.They hang out together but it took time for the old to accept the new and both were adults.If you can,get two,Christmas is coming up......


There is three options for Biscuit. Option one: She passes away from her disorder in the next week. Option two: She does not pass away, but we discover her disorder is contagious so we give her to my horseback instructor who has a massive field/forest full of wild chickens where she can live and not pass on the disorder.
Option three: We find out her disease is not contagious and it is just a very weird quirk, and we integrate her with the new bird and introduce them both into the flock. A sub option for that last one is we just give Biscuit away anyway because our coop is rather small for five birds, but she is likely to have a fatal disorder because it is getting worse.


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

Maryellen said:


> Yes what will you do with biscuit.
> All my birds are black and black/white/green . They all hey along being the same colors and temperment


Go on Murray McMurray hatchery's website and search "started pullets" in the search bar. Those are all the breeds they have. My top two picks would be Rhode Island Red or a Red Star/ISA Brown. Which one would you recommend purchasing?


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## Nm156 (May 16, 2015)

Get the refund.Take the money build another coop wait till spring get some new chicks.


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

Nm156 said:


> Get the refund.Take the money build another coop wait till spring get some new chicks.


I don't think $100 is enough to build a new coop, and raising chicks was very stressful for me, as well as the long wait for eggs. Maybe use the money to make a run extension and purchase three started pullets from a different hatchery? At Hoover's Hatchery, their pullets are 4-8 weeks old and have free shipping, so it may cost less.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Honestly why would you pass a chicken with a neurological issue to someone else? That's cruel. I highly doubt her issue is contagious. But to pass her off to a forest flock who won't accept her either and she starves to death because she isn't able o feed herself is cruel. Chickens are not things. They are living creatures. If you are seriously thinking of giving her away you are better off killing her . And if you decide to keep her give her the best life she can have.
It's really sad when people think so frivolous about a creature with a medical issue (while looking at my 8 yr old half blind hen who is in my living room right now for her own safety who will stay here and not get tormented by the hens picking on her )...
To toss something to another person knowing she has a medical condition is cruel.
Sometimes death is a nicer fate then where the hen might wind up.
And if your coop is to small for 5 hens then wait till spring ,take the refund and build a bigger coop in the spring or just stay with what you have.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Rirs and isa browns can be nasty. I had 3 rsl and 2 rir and they were bullies. Just take the refund and leave the birds you have alone right now. The 100 can be used to make a bigger run in spring


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

I 100% back NM's comment. Don't get any more right now. The birds are paying for your inexperience and micro managing. You need to get time with these guys under your belt to learn about them. You have three, that's all that's needed. If the weather gets nasty then you're trying to cram birds into a space that already is not large enough. I'll bet your coop does not have 16 square feet of "open" floor space where the four birds need to be confined for days of bad weather.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I had a Lady Goulding finch pair and the female started having seizures. In the beginning, they would stop and she wouldn't even realize it. But then she started not recovering quickly and I had to euthanize her. Boy did I cry. My (un)medical conclusion was Aspergillosis. I'be also had one hen that I know of die from it, confirmed by lab. I've read that many birds esp. Chickens die from it and usually asymptomatic til the end. I would believe that your hen may have picked that up because I've read how common it is. The fungus grows everywhere.

My opinion is that if you see no improvement in the next 5 days or less, do the humane thing. I tube 45-60 ml of vodka. You can also use an ax, or a vet. It's a sad truth about owing a chicken a humane death. Believe me I know as we all do.

I don'the know about the size of your coop but ventilation is key. Chickens just need a wind block. Use shavings not straw. My Valerie had both and still got it. She had no symptoms til the day she died. At the lab they said the fungus had covered her lungs and a mass on her heart. 

Just another suggestion. She probably came with it. Get a refund. There's a hatchery that has started chickens that they vaccinate for everythingetting as they grow.


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

seminolewind said:


> I had a Lady Goulding finch pair and the female started having seizures. In the beginning, they would stop and she wouldn't even realize it. But then she started not recovering quickly and I had to euthanize her. Boy did I cry. My (un)medical conclusion was Aspergillosis. I'be also had one hen that I know of die from it, confirmed by lab. I've read that many birds esp. Chickens die from it and usually asymptomatic til the end. I would believe that your hen may have picked that up because I've read how common it is. The fungus grows everywhere.
> 
> My opinion is that if you see no improvement in the next 5 days or less, do the humane thing. I tube 45-60 ml of vodka. You can also use an ax, or a vet. It's a sad truth about owing a chicken a humane death. Believe me I know as we all do.
> 
> ...


Is it contagious? I'm worried about the other hens getting it because a few people on this forum told me that I didn't need to quarantine a vaccinated hatchery pullet, and she wasn't showing so many symptoms yet. She spent one night in the coop with Petal and Atari. 
Is Aspergillosis curable/treatable? That's disappointing...I may take her to the vet to be euthanized if she gets worse. 
I need to look up Aspergillosis and find out more about it as well.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

You said she had it from the day you got her, so it's highly unlikely she got it from your coop. It's likely a neurological issue like I mentioned


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

Maryellen said:


> Honestly why would you pass a chicken with a neurological issue to someone else? That's cruel. I highly doubt her issue is contagious. But to pass her off to a forest flock who won't accept her either and she starves to death because she isn't able o feed herself is cruel. Chickens are not things. They are living creatures. If you are seriously thinking of giving her away you are better off killing her . And if you decide to keep her give her the best life she can have.
> It's really sad when people think so frivolous about a creature with a medical issue (while looking at my 8 yr old half blind hen who is in my living room right now for her own safety who will stay here and not get tormented by the hens picking on her )...
> To toss something to another person knowing she has a medical condition is cruel.
> Sometimes death is a nicer fate then where the hen might wind up.
> And if your coop is to small for 5 hens then wait till spring ,take the refund and build a bigger coop in the spring or just stay with what you have.


I didn't mean completely feral; she still feeds them and houses them in a rather large coop. She has about 15, and what I meant by wild was that the owner isn't an anxiety ridden micromanager like myself. She doesn't hunt them down and a "look for zebras when you hear hooves" kind of person. However, I don't think Biscuit will be going there because 1.) she is very young and I wouldn't want to send her into a new flock being this small, even though there are some chicks younger than her there that are bantams AND a fellow Buff Orpington, and 2.) there is two roosters there and I am worried about her getting harassed.

If she does end up suffering because of this condition, (she doesn't seem to be in pain now, she just can't control her head / body sometimes), then I will euthanize her at the vet. If she ends up being a little pet who never fits in and has a quirk, I will make her a little house on the outside deck, for pete's sake. I love this chicken and I don't want to give up on her...I already had to let go of Wigwam, and I don't want to give up on this girl so quickly.


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

Maryellen said:


> You said she had it from the day you got her, so it's highly unlikely she got it from your coop. It's likely a neurological issue like I mentioned


Yes, when we first placed her in the cage when she got here, she did the head bob, so I think it's either neurological or Aspergillosis, like seminolewind said.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

The bird probably does not have aspergillosis. Her problem is probably a neuro deficiency. 

How do I know this? I had a rooster that, when stressed, his head would bob off in different directions. That bird lived for 9 or 10 years. There is absolutely no reason that hen can not live a good, long life if you listen to what you've been told that will make things better for her.


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

robin416 said:


> The bird probably does not have aspergillosis. Her problem is probably a neuro deficiency.
> 
> How do I know this? I had a rooster that, when stressed, his head would bob off in different directions. That bird lived for 9 or 10 years. There is absolutely no reason that hen can not live a good, long life if you listen to what you've been told that will make things better for her.


Oh my gosh! That's exactly what Biscuit does, when she gets stressed! Say, if it were Aspergillosis or neurological, would it be contagious or can I put her with the flock!


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

If she was contagious the others have already been exposed.

No, she is not contagious, she's not sick. She needs a keeper that understands her issues and is willing to do right by her. You still can not toss her into the existing flock and expect things to go well for her. If you can't find the patience to deal with not only putting a bird in an existing flock properly but a bird that needs special consideration then the kindest thing is to find her a good home.


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

robin416 said:


> If she was contagious the others have already been exposed.
> 
> No, she is not contagious, she's not sick. She needs a keeper that understands her issues and is willing to do right by her. You still can not toss her into the existing flock and expect things to go well for her. If you can't find the patience to deal with not only putting a bird in an existing flock properly but a bird that needs special consideration then the kindest thing is to find her a good home.


Oh, I have patience with her. It's my parents that don't appreciate Biscuit in the screened-in porch. Would it be wrong to keep her in our large shed we use for chicken feed/garden tools? There's plenty of light and the windows open to let in air. It's very safe and spacy in there, not hot or too cold...it's just the right temperature in there to house her. It's also far quieter. 
That's good news that she's not contagious; I can resume integration. Raisin and Petal were the bullying hens in that situation, and taking Raisin out for a night did no good. Maybe keeping Raisin away longer may solve the issue?


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Pulling both birds out and keeping them out for an extended period of time, a week or more, is the next step. That will allow the other two more of a chance to bond. Then when the other two are replaced then things might go more smoothly. I say might. They are thinking creatures and will do what they are going to do.


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

robin416 said:


> Pulling both birds out and keeping them out for an extended period of time, a week or more, is the next step. That will allow the other two more of a chance to bond. Then when the other two are replaced then things might go more smoothly. I say might. They are thinking creatures and will do what they are going to do.


Would it be better to keep Raisin and Petal in the same cage while they are pulled out, or keep them in separate cages?


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Only if the cage is 8 square feet. Otherwise, if there are no chemicals in the other shed, put them in there. You would have to make sure there was no where they could get trapped. More than one bird has died that way.


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

robin416 said:


> Only if the cage is 8 square feet. Otherwise, if there are no chemicals in the other shed, put them in there. You would have to make sure there was no where they could get trapped. More than one bird has died that way.


I suppose I'll be keeping then in two cages - one is 6 square feet and the other is 4. I can't chicken-proof the shed and let them walk around in there - my dad wouldn't allow it; the mess would be to much. I meant keeping them in cages inside the shed so their smell doesn't flood the screened-in porch.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

robin416 said:


> The bird probably does not have aspergillosis. Her problem is probably a neuro deficiency.
> 
> How do I know this? I had a rooster that, when stressed, his head would bob off in different directions. That bird lived for 9 or 10 years. There is absolutely no reason that hen can not live a good, long life if you listen to what you've been told that will make things better for her.


Did the hen bob, have what sounds like seizures, or both? The hen does not need neuro deficiency to have seizures. They can be caused by a number of things including Aspergillosis prior to you getting her, it's a fungus. From what I've experienced in the past, I give you my best guess as Food For Thought- not a diagnosis.


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## oldhen2345 (May 14, 2017)

Nm156 said:


> That old saying "birds of a feather flock together".


Even though they all share food and housing, there seem to be cliques in the flock. My flock is all different breeds and they seem to get along according to size and age, not color - the day olds that were in the brooder together stay together, the older birds stick together. I have a Welsummer- a reddish brown bird with a black tail. She is beautiful, curious and adventuresome. She hasn't laid any eggs yet- any day maybe, but I like the breed.
One little thing - I ordered a lavender orpington in the last batch of 6 chicks. Turned out to be a rooster, so I ordered a started pullet the same age as the others (10 weeks and incidentally cost about $100 when you add in shipping), isolated it for a few weeks and when I made the switch, the silly chickens acted like they didn't know anything had happened. Paul became Pearl and no one was the wiser. Chickens - go figure.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Cute! I've had a few that just invited themselves into the flock and no one batted an eye.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

seminolewind said:


> Did the hen bob, have what sounds like seizures, or both? The hen does not need neuro deficiency to have seizures. They can be caused by a number of things including Aspergillosis prior to you getting her, it's a fungus. From what I've experienced in the past, I give you my best guess as Food For Thought- not a diagnosis.


There is no seizure involved in the deficiency and Wigwam has not described anything near a seizure in the bird's behavior.


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

seminolewind said:


> Did the hen bob, have what sounds like seizures, or both? The hen does not need neuro deficiency to have seizures. They can be caused by a number of things including Aspergillosis prior to you getting her, it's a fungus. From what I've experienced in the past, I give you my best guess as Food For Thought- not a diagnosis.


She had head bobbing, especially when she was stressed. Then, two days ago, she had a flapping episode, but she did not totally lose control, as I have seen in videos.
I don't know if they were even seizures...maybe she was just excited on my appearance in the porch?


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

robin416 said:


> There is no seizure involved in the deficiency and Wigwam has not described anything near a seizure in the bird's behavior.


Yes, whatever she is doing with her body is not especially violent or awful...she may just be an odd bird.


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## IncubatorWarehouse (Nov 28, 2016)

What an oddly interesting thread, best of luck with Biscuit. I have a special needs rooster, he lives with the other birds and does just fine...just take care of her and give her a good life.


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

IncubatorWarehouse said:


> What an oddly interesting thread, best of luck with Biscuit. I have a special needs rooster, he lives with the other birds and does just fine...just take care of her and give her a good life.


I will definitely do that for her.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Wigwam7 said:


> Today, I let Biscuit out of her cage to walk around the porch a little. I went back inside to get something, and as I was coming out back into the porch, Biscuit did her little head bob//twitch where she pulls it back into her body...then, she went crazy. She backed up and bumped into the couch, then she was blinking quite a lot and flapping like crazy. She was staggering and stumbling and flapping into the air...it was horrible to watch. It looked like she was having a chicken seizure or just going out of control! I went outside to tell my brother what happened, then as I was going back inside, I saw her have another "seizure". She doesn't fall during these episodes, just stagger and basically lose control of her reflexes. I think it may be a neurological disorder. All of our current chickens are vaccinated against Merek's, so the little contact she had with them will (hopefully, dear lord) not transmit anything she may have.
> I called McMurray hatchery and they said "Yes, that's not normal, would you like a refund or replacement?" and I said replacement so they are going to send me a new Buff Orpington pullet the 27th of November...however, I think I may cancel and get a refund and instead purchase another breed that may be a little bit more less prone to bullying, since Biscuit is small, blond, and submissive. What do you think? Could you guys suggest a breed as good as an Orpington, like maybe a red star or RIR?
> Thanks.


Robin, Wigwam's opening post did sound like a seizure is being described. I'm really really glad it's not.


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## Wigwam7 (Mar 29, 2017)

seminolewind said:


> Robin, Wigwam's opening post did sound like a seizure is being described. I'm glad it's not.


I don't think it was, to be honest. Now that I've watched her more carefully, it seems like a stress or excitement craziness episode!


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Head bobbing and/or neck stretching is normally a crop or gizzard adjustment which is normal. Since your birds are young, I suspect they discovered that they could possibly fly if they flapped their wings. 
If they are eating and drinking normal, pooping normal...I wouldnt worry about it. 
If you suspect a vitamin deficiency (for real,) provide them Avian Super Pack from Jefferslivestock.com


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

And I read it as a child misinterpreting what she was seeing with a young bird in a totally foreign environment.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

It's pretty interesting how many different interpretations come about when a chicken is looking abnormal. Always lots to ponder.


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## Sara Silver (Nov 27, 2017)

Maryellen said:


> Honestly why would you pass a chicken with a neurological issue to someone else? That's cruel. I highly doubt her issue is contagious. But to pass her off to a forest flock who won't accept her either and she starves to death because she isn't able o feed herself is cruel. Chickens are not things. They are living creatures. If you are seriously thinking of giving her away you are better off killing her . And if you decide to keep her give her the best life she can have.
> It's really sad when people think so frivolous about a creature with a medical issue (while looking at my 8 yr old half blind hen who is in my living room right now for her own safety who will stay here and not get tormented by the hens picking on her )...
> To toss something to another person knowing she has a medical condition is cruel.
> Sometimes death is a nicer fate then where the hen might wind up.
> And if your coop is to small for 5 hens then wait till spring ,take the refund and build a bigger coop in the spring or just stay with what you have.


It's wonderful that you chose to stand by your hen...but not everyone can move a chicken into their living room. OP didn't mistreat this hen, she was unlucky enough to receive an ill bird. It's not a good option to toss Biscuit in at the mercy of the stronger hens or to risk infecting the existing flock. And to answer your 1st question- people new to raising a certain type of animal are not always capable of handling one with special needs, while long-time keepers with a little more knowledge and a lot more experience are. Wigwam7 is clearly upset by this unexpected situation and just doing his/her best to think of options. Shaming someone isn't necessary, isn't helpful and is rather cruel in itself.


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## Sara Silver (Nov 27, 2017)

Wigwam7 said:


> I didn't mean completely feral; she still feeds them and houses them in a rather large coop. She has about 15, and what I meant by wild was that the owner isn't an anxiety ridden micromanager like myself. She doesn't hunt them down and a "look for zebras when you hear hooves" kind of person. However, I don't think Biscuit will be going there because 1.) she is very young and I wouldn't want to send her into a new flock being this small, even though there are some chicks younger than her there that are bantams AND a fellow Buff Orpington, and 2.) there is two roosters there and I am worried about her getting harassed.
> 
> If she does end up suffering because of this condition, (she doesn't seem to be in pain now, she just can't control her head / body sometimes), then I will euthanize her at the vet. If she ends up being a little pet who never fits in and has a quirk, I will make her a little house on the outside deck, for pete's sake. I love this chicken and I don't want to give up on her...I already had to let go of Wigwam, and I don't want to give up on this girl so quickly.


I am sorry you were spoken to that way. I have learned some people just ride rather tall horses...


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Shaming her? No. Thinking of placing a chicken with issues on someone else is not good. It's not fair to put a sick chicken on someone else.


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## Sara Silver (Nov 27, 2017)

Maryellen said:


> Shaming her? No. Thinking of placing a chicken with issues on someone else is not good. It's not fair to put a sick chicken on someone else.


It is fair if the other person agrees to it. Animals sometimes need to be re-homed with someone who is a better match. And I don't see anywhere the OP ever said or implied she was going to sneak this chicken into anyone's flock or try to cover up the odd symptoms/behavior.

OP obviously cares about this hen or s/he wouldn't be on here fretting.

And yeah, I think it's fair to say calling someone who's gotten stuck in a bad situation "frivolous" and "cruel" is an attempt to make them feel bad/ashamed of their behavior.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

It's unfortunate that posting 
has no intonations that come with how you say things
Or exactly how you mean what you say. 
I think being helpful sometimes comes out not sounding that way.
It's the curse of the posted word.


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## chickenqueen (Jan 9, 2016)

ME didn't mean anything by it,she was just concerned for the safety of a disabled chicken.Chicken lives matter!!!Culling would be a better fate than "dumping" her off to starve to death or being pecked to death.Hopefully Biscuit's new home will be appropriate and she has a long,healthy life.


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## Sara Silver (Nov 27, 2017)

T


Wigwam7 said:


> True, but red birds aren't very similar either...but they are less submissive to other birds. I think I'll cancel and get another breed...which one is better, a RIR or Red Star/ISA brown?


True, I can't speak to owning the first two breeds, but I really enjoy our 2 Isa B's! Moxy without much actual aggression. Prolific layers of BIG, speckled eggs. Lovely, deep red or strawberry blonde plumage!


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Speckled eggs?????


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## Sara Silver (Nov 27, 2017)

seminolewind said:


> Speckled eggs?????


Yes indeedy! One of the gals lays an light tan with an almost pinkish tint with a sparse smattering of freckles. The other lays a darker, reddish tan with cute little freckles all over.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

How sweet!


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