# Are ISA browns and Red Stars the same breed?



## SilkieGirl (Apr 29, 2021)

I have read that they are but I'm also reading that they're aren't. They look the same to me (but I'm no expert). Also, can Red Stars be buff/cream?

Thanks in advance!


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Ok, I'm going to wait along with you on the answer. I had a Red Star, had never heard of ISA Browns when I had her.


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## fuzzies (Jul 27, 2021)

They are both red sexlinks, so kind of yes. But they also use different 'formulas' to get to the finished product, so kind of no.

Both should be a reddish color with white undertones. I've seen some relatively pale ones that could pass as buff, not sure about cream. Technically, though, they're a mixed color crossing.


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## fuzzies (Jul 27, 2021)

Thought maybe I should expand on my post a bit because I kinda didn't explain, well, anything. 

Neither ISA browns nor red stars are a breed; those are just catchy names that hatcheries come up with for purposefully-bred essentially mixed breed chickens. In this case, both were bred for high egg-laying and to be able to be sexed at hatch. The pullets are red, hence red sexlink; the color red is linked to the female sex. These are created when you breed a red or gold male with the right genetics to a silver or silver-based female. The father could be anything from a Rhode Island Red to a New Hampshire to even a Gold-laced Wyandotte, and the mothers could be a number of things including Delawares, Light Sussex, Silver-laced Wyandottes, silver-based White Leghorns, etc. This is what I mean when I say ISAs and red stars are kind of the same thing, but kind of not. They could have completely different parent breeds, but turn out similar in appearance because of how those genetics work. Some big names even have parent generations that are, themselves, not a specific breed, but also a hybrid like their offspring will be, bred for a high yield of eggs. The only common factor in the parent generation is that they have the correct genes to produce sexlinked offspring so that males and females are distinct at hatch.

Something worth noting, because people often try to do this, is that the genes in red sexlinks, themselves, are incorrect for producing more red sexlinks. If you cross male and female red sexlinks, you get a big ol concoction of different genetics that is not sexable at hatch like their parents were. A true breed, when crossing a male and female of the same variety, will reliably produce offspring similar to their parents. This is also why I say that they technically are mixed-color rather than Buff or Red or Cream specifically. They can be reddish or buffish in appearance, but not genetically those colors. Crossing them with a pure Red or Buff colored bird will not make offspring that are true to either color.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Love that explanation. I knew they were more like EE's as far as being a breed. I didn't know if they just expanded the name range of Red Stars to include ISAs. Which explains why they get so messed up in feed stores.


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## SilkieGirl (Apr 29, 2021)

fuzzies said:


> They are both red sexlinks, so kind of yes. But they also use different 'formulas' to get to the finished product, so kind of no.
> 
> Both should be a reddish color with white undertones. I've seen some relatively pale ones that could pass as buff, not sure about cream. Technically, though, they're a mixed color crossing.


Thank you for replying! 

Yeah, I have a Red Star hen and she's kinda pale in color. Pretty close to buff. Buff and cream is the same thing, right?



fuzzies said:


> Thought maybe I should expand on my post a bit because I kinda didn't explain, well, anything.
> 
> Neither ISA browns nor red stars are a breed; those are just catchy names that hatcheries come up with for purposefully-bred essentially mixed breed chickens. In this case, both were bred for high egg-laying and to be able to be sexed at hatch. The pullets are red, hence red sexlink; the color red is linked to the female sex. These are created when you breed a red or gold male with the right genetics to a silver or silver-based female. The father could be anything from a Rhode Island Red to a New Hampshire to even a Gold-laced Wyandotte, and the mothers could be a number of things including Delawares, Light Sussex, Silver-laced Wyandottes, silver-based White Leghorns, etc. This is what I mean when I say ISAs and red stars are kind of the same thing, but kind of not. They could have completely different parent breeds, but turn out similar in appearance because of how those genetics work. Some big names even have parent generations that are, themselves, not a specific breed, but also a hybrid like their offspring will be, bred for a high yield of eggs. The only common factor in the parent generation is that they have the correct genes to produce sexlinked offspring so that males and females are distinct at hatch.
> 
> Something worth noting, because people often try to do this, is that the genes in red sexlinks, themselves, are incorrect for producing more red sexlinks. If you cross male and female red sexlinks, you get a big ol concoction of different genetics that is not sexable at hatch like their parents were. A true breed, when crossing a male and female of the same variety, will reliably produce offspring similar to their parents. This is also why I say that they technically are mixed-color rather than Buff or Red or Cream specifically. They can be reddish or buffish in appearance, but not genetically those colors. Crossing them with a pure Red or Buff colored bird will not make offspring that are true to either color.


Wow, okay. I think I got it. Thank you very much for that explanation! 


robin416 said:


> Which explains why they get so messed up in feed stores.


What do you mean they get messed up in feed stores?


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

I don't remember what I brought home a few years ago. They were peeps for a broody to raise and I was giving them away when the hen was done raising them. When my friend came to get them he told me nope, they were something else.

Being that I was almost all bantams I had no clue.


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## SilkieGirl (Apr 29, 2021)

Hmm. Dad got our Red Stars from Tractor supply. I honestly thought that ISA Brown was just another name for Red Star but apparently not. Dad wanted ISA Browns and all they had were Red Stars and thought him that they're the same thing. As long as they lay a fair amount of eggs, I think he'll be fine. Whoops.

Yeah, I understand. If it ain't a cat, I'm lost.


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## Animals45 (May 11, 2021)

Yes, they are actually the same.. I read that The Red Star is also called the ISA Brown and they are both the same. They are the best brown egg layers also..


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

The problem is they only live two or three years before they start having laying problems. Mine made it to three years old but she showed signs of trouble at two.


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## fuzzies (Jul 27, 2021)

SilkieGirl said:


> Yeah, I have a Red Star hen and she's kinda pale in color. Pretty close to buff. Buff and cream is the same thing, right?


Genetically, no. Buff is diluted Red (diluted with the gene denoted as Di), whereas cream, as in Cream Light Brown, is a cream diluter (denoted ig if I remember correctly), two completely separate genes. Technically, red sexlinks are neither, though they can look similar.





Animals45 said:


> Yes, they are actually the same.. I read that The Red Star is also called the ISA Brown and they are both the same. They are the best brown egg layers also..


They are all red sexlinks, so one could make the claim that they're all the same thing, but each is a name for a specific formula of parent breeds that a hatchery has developed. For example, ISA browns were developed by the Institut de Sélection Animale in France (hence ISA brown; *I*nstitut de *S*élection *A*nimale). I believe their parent stock are two hybrid 'mother' and 'father' lines rather than two specific breeds. They are one of the most prolific red sexlink hybrids out there and so many hatcheries have just purchased parent stock to sell ISA browns out of rather than develop their own red sexlink hybrid. This is why ISA browns are one of the more common red sexlinks out there, but technically speaking, if the parent stock isn't from the ISA, they are not really ISA browns.

Cinnamon Queens are another red sexlink hybrid with a very specific formula for making them; their background includes Wyandottes, so they often have rose combs. The genuine CQs I've seen look very different from your typical red sexlink, but a lot of people use the name for their birds despite that they are not actual CQs.

So yeah, they are the same in that they are all a type of red sexlink, but the names technically aren't interchangeable because they have a specific formula to make them. It's kind of like Coke and Pepsi. They are both a type of cola, but the names aren't really meant to be interchangeable.


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## fuzzies (Jul 27, 2021)

robin416 said:


> The problem is they only live two or three years before they start having laying problems. Mine made it to three years old but she showed signs of trouble at two.


This was my experience with them as well, and why I don't get them anymore.  Sweet, personable birds, but they just don't have longevity. I think I only had one or two that beat three years of age, and all of them that died at three had complications due to their high egg production.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

fuzzies said:


> This was my experience with them as well, and why I don't get them anymore.  Sweet, personable birds, but they just don't have longevity. I think I only had one or two that beat three years of age, and all of them that died at three had complications due to their high egg production.


All of that is true. But it's not just the Red Stars most others bred for high production also experience problems early in life and succumb.

Man messing around with nature.


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## ChickenBiscuts (May 28, 2021)

Wow. I really don't think I can add anything here. @fuzzies seems to have hit all the major points.

And I will admit I did not know this piece.


fuzzies said:


> ISA browns were developed by the Institut de Sélection Animale in France (hence ISA brown; *I*nstitut de *S*élection *A*nimale).


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## SilkieGirl (Apr 29, 2021)

fuzzies said:


> Genetically, no. Buff is diluted Red (diluted with the gene denoted as Di), whereas cream, as in Cream Light Brown, is a cream diluter (denoted ig if I remember correctly), two completely separate genes. Technically, red sexlinks are neither, though they can look similar.


Oh, okay. Thank you!


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

OK, @fuzzies is scary. I could just understand genetics if put in English but when it was an alphabet I got lost.


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## fuzzies (Jul 27, 2021)

robin416 said:


> All of that is true. But it's not just the Red Stars most others bred for high production also experience problems early in life and succumb.
> 
> Man messing around with nature.


For sure, I also lost at least one hatchery Rhode Island Red and a Barred Rock to issues related to egg laying. It just seems so consistent with red sexlinks particularly. 





ChickenBiscuts said:


> Wow. I really don't think I can add anything here. @fuzzies seems to have hit all the major points.
> 
> And I will admit I did not know this piece.


Oh, haha, well I'm glad I could contribute well! I have a lot of base knowledge about red sexlinks particularly from researching and writing about them for another poultry site a few years back. 😄


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Well, share away. It helps all of us.


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## lovely_chooks (Mar 19, 2021)

Before I use the google search picture thing and I thought by chicken was an isa brown but he wasn’t lol


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## SilkieGirl (Apr 29, 2021)

Those aren't always accurate.


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## lovely_chooks (Mar 19, 2021)

SilkieGirl said:


> Those aren't always accurate.


Yuh I know but then what else do I use


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