# Today is the day



## Maryellen

10:30 this morning the state will be here to test all my chickens. I will be at work as I can't take off so bill will hopefully be able to hold the chickens while the state swabs and does bloodwork. They said results will take a week. She wasn't sure how long the necropsy would take though.


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## chickenqueen

I hope it goes well and nothing is found where you have to cull the flock.I know this is probably very frightening and I really wish I could help.The really scary part is it could happen to anyone,anywhere.My fear is the wild,migrating birds will bring something to my flock and that is why I started feeding the feral cats,to chase the birds and rodents(another source of parasites and disease) away.I even skipped the county fairs this year because there was a pig positive with swine flu at one of the first ones.I don't have pigs but the disease was enough to keep me away,maybe for good.


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## Maryellen

The state left per bill. Said my chickens in my new coop have mucous in their mouths. She will call me later to go over stuff and what I owe. Blood and swab results she said should hopefully be in Friday . Necropsy results she is unsure when it will have results as the hen has to be sent out today


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## dawg53

Good luck ME. You've been through the wringer with this.


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## seminole wind

My fingers are crossed for you and I'll be waiting along with you holding your virtual hand.

Not for the money, you have sunk a lot of emotional attachment into your birds and ventures. I hope whatever they have does not prevent you from starting over if possible. 

Love ya, ME.


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## Steinwand

If you don't mind my asking why are your birds being tested by the state?


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## Maryellen

And Per The state she thinks it's ILT , tricomyosis? And possibly MG not sure yet. Almost all my chickens have mucous in mouths. 5 have lesions in mouths. The one with the black mark on wattle is definitely not fowl pox. Dead hen hopefully will be sent out for necropsy but might not be able to due to days in fridge. I am.now waiting for blood and mouth swabs to get a definite answer. The state said there Is definitely some underlying issue but not sure what ,has to wait for results from lab and it might take a week


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## Maryellen

I'm not happy right now.


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## Steinwand

I hope everything works out for the best!


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## robin416

No, ME, and you have no reason to be happy about any of this. 

I know telling you not worry is useless so I won't. I will be watching and hoping that the observations are wrong. You did the right thing though having them tested.


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## Maryellen

Steinwand,my birds were sneezing and had bubbles In one eye, then 2 died in 24 hrs so I called the state to test them so I could find out what was wrong


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## Maryellen

I'm hoping so to robin, I really am. I'm pissed and upset.


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## robin416

My best friend went through this with her flock. What I will tell you is that she came back from her flock issues with the help of friends when it was safe to do so. And she came back with a vengeance. 

Once they have a diagnosis, depending on what is, they are probably going to want to do a trace back to find the point of origin.


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## Maryellen

I hope so. All the time and energy I invested, and money. To have it all possibly be wiped out is infuriating me. I won't do anything hasty. Once I get complete accurate diagnosis I will begin. The state still has to come back to test for mareks too


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## boskelli1571

got my fingers and toes crossed for ya -


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## robin416

And the heartache. I don't care how tough you are, this hurts in your heart. 

States are different on how they address these issues but I would check to see if they have a reimbursement program. I don't know how it works, I just know my friend had that option.


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## dawg53

Trichomoniasis is canker. Treatment is metronidazole 250mg one tablet daily for 5 days.
It is contageous via feeders and waterers, chickens will be carriers. Copper sulfate 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of water for 3 days straight in plastic waterer (not metal) once a month will keep it in check.
https://www.revivalanimal.com/product/fish-zole?sku=22154-698
https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/acidified_copper_sulfate.html


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## dawg53

ME, for your information; scroll down in this link and read a short paragraph about Infectious Laryngotracheitis (ILT.) It describes the mucus plugs in the windpipe as well as bloody mucus that is slung with head and neck shaking. When birds do this, they are trying to expel mucus and or blood so they can breathe, or they will suffocate. 
As you can see however, there are symptoms your birds dont have. So again, we have to wait for the results. I would immediately cull my flock if mine had ILT or MG.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ps044


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## Maryellen

Dawg if my flock has ILT or mg or mareks ir any disease that makes them a carrier I will be culling everyone


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## robin416

ME, if it's ILT the state will be doing it. It's handled as a bio hazard. They will disinfect your buildings and ground. At least that's how they do it down here.


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## Maryellen

The state told me certain diseases they cull. They said if it's not the diseases they cull for then I have to do it. I'll ask if there is some sort of reimbursement program. 
It's going to be heartbreaking, I'm already heartbroken that 2 pullets died and everyone is sick. I'm regretting not returning the 6 in august that had 2 sneezing on the way hone, I'm regretting getting the 3 last ones. I feel like it's my fault and I hurt my chickens by getting the 9. It's very upsetting.


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## dawg53

Lesson learned ME. No need to second guess yourself. No need to let birds suffer with terrible diseases. You'll be doing them a favor by culling if it comes to it. You'll take a different path in the future. 
You'll be the forum expert in biosecurity. Take it and run with it.


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## robin416

According to the state my friend's birds got ILT from a bird she had shipped in. But the flock she bought the bird from tested negative for ILT. They said it contracted it in shipping. Why I don't believe that is what the state right next to her was doing. They inoculated eggs with a live vaccine. There were multiple outbreaks of ILT almost on her doorstep. 

I would say don't beat yourself up but I know you'll do it anyway. And I know me telling you this stuff happens won't help at all. The waiting for answers is going to be the hard part. I will tell you though, if Mareks is present, once the birds are vaccinated you can sell and trade birds safely. I swapped birds with my friend all of the time and my flock was not vaccinated. When she sold out her birds went to several different people without an issue.


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## Maryellen

I thought I always was careful, checking out the birds at houses, I only bought from people I knew, and knew how they cared for their birds. Funny part is I wasn't going to take the cuckoo hen, cuckoo isn't my color but she was so pretty I said I would buy her with the other blacks. If I didn't take her I wonder if this all would not have happened. If I had turned around when the 2 were sneezing of the 6 in august and didn't take them home would this have happened..


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## Maryellen

If it's mareks I will cull also.


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## robin416

That was a long time ago to just now have stuff going on so I don't think that bird is part of this if it is ILT.


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## dawg53

ME, even if you turned around and returned the 2 that were sneezing...you were contaminated with whatever disease it is and mostly would have spread it to your birds. UNLESS you decontaminated your vehicle, then went directly in your house and washed your contaminated clothing, disinfected your shoes and took a shower and scrubbed down with soap head to toe.


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## seminole wind

Maryellen said:


> If it's mareks I will cull also.


I strongly doubt it's Marek's. Marek's is not respiratory. If you have Marek's, which you most likely don't, culling all the birds won't help because the virus can remain on your property for years.

I have Marek's in my flock. Any exposed bird whether vaccinated or not can spread the virus. The vaccine only covers the production of tumors. Nothing else. Eggs are safe to buy and sell , Marek's doesn't spread by egg.


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## Maryellen

I just have to wait and see what the results are.


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## Maryellen

I wanted to breed and sell the bredas, so I can't do that if it's mareks or any other carrier contagious disease.


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## chickenqueen

robin416 said:


> ME, if it's ILT the state will be doing it. It's handled as a bio hazard. They will disinfect your buildings and ground. At least that's how they do it down here.


OMG!!!! The state may take over in the event of certain diseases?When I read your post,I immediately pictured government officials running around my property in bio-hazard suits.It was not a pleasant thought.ME,I'm praying extra now you don't go through that.I hope it's an easily eradicated bacteria that antibiotics will take care of.God bless!!!​


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## robin416

ILT is highly contagious and is a huge threat to other flocks and wild birds. It makes perfect sense for those trained in removing the threat be the ones to implement it. 

The worst part is that it is even necessary at all. That they haven't found a way to make it a non issue.


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## robin416

Maryellen said:


> I wanted to breed and sell the bredas, so I can't do that if it's mareks or any other carrier contagious disease.


ME, listen up. Once the Mareks issue is addressed it is no longer a threat. At least not from your birds. There is me and half a dozen other Silkie breeders that can attest to that. I'm not talking about backyard breeders, I'm talking about people who raised birds worth hundreds of dollars each.

Mareks is out there. There is nothing short of vaccinations that can prevent an infection. Except for pure luck.


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## Maryellen

State called, pathologist thinks trickomosis die to underlying disease but not sure. Lesions in mouths are what is making them.lean to it. Waiting for tests and necropsy, should hear by Friday or Monday next week.


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## Maryellen

Yes in NJ if it's a certain disease like ILT they come here and it's a bio hazard and kill all the chickens.


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## Maryellen

Dawg if it's trichomoniasis is it a carrier disease and is treatment forever


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## robin416

This will help: http://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/trichomonosis/overview-of-trichomonosis

But wait until you really know what is happening. If it is trich I would ask the state people if the drugs are available through them if you choose to treat rather than cull.


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## Maryellen

Thanks robin, I'm going to wait for the results. If it's a disease I have to keep treating that is a carrier disease that will never go away im culling everyone. I'm not going to treat every month just to keep something in remission.


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## Maryellen

This was sent to me too

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichomonas_gallinae


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## seminole wind

Maryellen said:


> I wanted to breed and sell the bredas, so I can't do that if it's mareks or any other carrier contagious disease.


True. I have had Marek's in my flock for 7-8 years, confirmed by animal disease lab necropsies. Since I had batches of chicks die from paralysis, wasting, cloudy eye, etc., I have studied Marek's thru numerous resources (not including the chick chick, or other laypeople). Thru scientists and researchers who have written articles about their findings and research books made available in colleges.

The vaccine protects (90%) of chickens against getting the tumors from the virus but not the virus itself. Vaccinated or not, if a chicken is exposed, they carry Marek's. It's spread by dander that will not leave your property for years.

I have had a few non vaccinated birds survive getting the virus , and have had a few vaccinated birds die from Marek's and confirmed by animal disease lab. I have made it goal in the world of chicken ownership to provide accurate and up to date information.

Your birds do not seem to have signs caused by Marek's virus. It does not cause bubbling eyes, snotty noses, thick mucous in throat. However Marek's does lower the immune system and those chickens are more vulnerable to common ailments that most chickens fight off like cocci, enteritis, E.coli, and I've had a few cases of mega dry pox that killed 2 chickens.

I'm glad you're having this ailment investigated. It's the only way to be certain of what they have.

As long as you import chickens from various places, you run the risk of getting a chicken carrying a disease . It must be super hard to try breeding .


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## Maryellen

The pathologist looked at the bird and here is the plan:

Tissue from trachea will be trimmed in and looked at on slide (histology) this will help to rule out ILT

Aerobic and anaerobic cultures are being done this will look at bacteria

They are also doing a fecal

You won’t get charged for the above in addition to avian influenza test

The green fecal material may be from gout, the pathologist saw inflammation of the kidneys on gross

She also saw pericarditis

I am going to send off to Georgia and have 4 samples run for MG and 4 for Marek’s your total on this should be less than $80

I don’t think there is enough blood to run both tests on each sample. I did not want to take more than 1ml of blood on each chicken since they are sick.

At this point I think you have multiple things going on. The bottom line is that you probably have an underlying virus and some opportunistic secondary bacterial infections have set in as a result. We may not have an answer until next week. Samples will get sent to Georgia today.

Lisa


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## dawg53

Maryellen said:


> Dawg if it's trichomoniasis is it a carrier disease and is treatment forever


Surviving birds are carriers. It's best to cull carriers, disinfect feeders and particularly waterers. If in fact it's canker and you decide not to cull; as I mentioned, use metronidazole initially, then monthly treatments of copper sulfate. This will be forever treatment.
If you decide to use the treatment route, let me know. I have additional info for you regarding the use of copper sulfate.


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## Maryellen

They will be culled if it's a carrier disease


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## Maryellen

And all feeders will be put in garbage. ALL water containers too. I will start from scratch all over. Just gotta figure out the sanitizing of both coops and yards


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## Steinwand

I wonder where there sending the stuff in ga?


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## Nm156

CDC in Atlanta????


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## robin416

I would think it was the state ag labs. Because of commercial poultry houses down here they can be quite the setup.


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## Steinwand

Ga poultry lab network in hall county most likely


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## Maryellen

They didn't say the place, her choices were GA and Penn.


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## dawg53

Maryellen said:


> And all feeders will be put in garbage. ALL water containers too. I will start from scratch all over. Just gotta figure out the sanitizing of both coops and yards


That's not necessary ME. Bleach water will sanitize everything. Clean out coops and burn litter if there's a respiratory disease involved, then spray coops inside and out with bleach water. Depending what disease (s) are involved, we'll have to find out the course times, then determine when to repopulate.


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## dawg53

Georgia Poultry labs: I've sent feces to the one in Tifton years ago.
https://www.gapoultrylab.org/about-us/locations/


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## Maryellen

Do you all.think that so far the state is doing the proper tests?it sounds to me like they are, I'm new to all this so their lingo is foreign to me. .
Am I missing something to ask them to test for? I mentioned wet pox and the bubbles in one eye on some of the hens too to the state


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## Maryellen

For the gout finding in the dead hen I found this, says infectious bronchitis is one cause

http://www.hyline.com/aspx/redbook/redbook.aspx?s=5&p=36


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## Maryellen

Thanks Dawg . I've literally got a small store of chicken bowls I've gotten over the years and would really hate to toss them, if bleach water will work that's great, everything is plastic except for the water bowls, those are goat metal pans . I can replace those at tractor supply.


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## Maryellen

You know you all are keeping me sane right now with all your support. You all don't know how much this means to me.


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## nannypattyrn

These are very supportive folks ME! Hopefully, you'll soon be able to see light at the end of your tunnel.


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## dawg53

I've had my moments when it seemed like it was one thing after another when dealing with chickens. 
And I still have chickens. It'll pass ME.


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> If it's mareks I will cull also.


Mareks is a quirky disease. Your birds could have Mareks and not show any signs, they could also be resistant to it. 
Personally, I would not cull for Mareks unless the bird is showing signs. I believe it's actually better to raise a flock that is resistant to the disease.


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## dawg53

I learned what Pericarditis is ME: Take a look at "Overview."
http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/More/What-is-Pericarditis_UCM_444931_ArticIEWle.jsp#


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## chickenqueen

I'm still praying.......


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## Maryellen

Yeah I looked up the pericarditis, it's all connected somehow along with gout due to an underlying issue


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## seminole wind

Sue, you make an interesting point. I know a few of us years back were supporting eachother with "there is life after Marek's". I know some of the people I knew decided to sell eggs (breeds). I only have a few birds left that were pre-marek''s and not vaccinated. All my others are. That's done to protect MY chickens from tumors that kill. Other than that, no one leaves and no chicken comes in unless they are an egg or a day old from a hatchery. There's just too many bad diseases out there.
Resistance appears to come with age. (Resistance = having enough antibodies to fight off an exposure to a disease.)


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## seminole wind

Necropsies are pretty thorough. It all comes down to what actually killed the bird and what showed up secondary. I guess they're trying to figure that out. 
On my necropsy, they stated all the things they find that shouldn't be, and get to the root cause of death. It does take a while to understand all the jargon. They won't miss anything.


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> Sue, you make an interesting point. I know a few of us years back were supporting eachother with "there is life after Marek's". I know some of the people I knew decided to sell eggs (breeds). I only have a few birds left that were pre-marek''s and not vaccinated. All my others are. That's done to protect MY chickens from tumors that kill. Other than that, no one leaves and no chicken comes in unless they are an egg or a day old from a hatchery. There's just too many bad diseases out there.
> Resistance appears to come with age. (Resistance = having enough antibodies to fight off an exposure to a disease.)


The thing is, if you don't test for Mareks and your birds show no signs of disease, how do you know? This is what bothers me about the NPIP scheme. It is a great thing to be able to prevent human disease by poultry improvement/culling, but why not improve the poultry itself?
If they were to test for Mareks I think they would probably find a huge number of flocks infected but showing no disease.
There is also controversy around the vaccine itself with some folks saying that it is more of a curse than a cure.
I think your practice of not admitting other birds to your flock is very sound.
I would like to be able to do this, but I want to start a breeding program with the Bredas', so I have to admit some birds. Strict quarantine is par for the course here, 30 day minimum longer as necessary.


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## Maryellen

I'm probably going to have to start over with the bredas. My security will be beyond anal. No one steps foot on my property. Anyone who I go see I'll bring change of clothes. Bleach spray for my clothes and shoes. Anyone buying birds from me will meet me at tractor supply. No one allowed anymore at my house. No more poultry show. Period.
Kennel runs will be bird proof with hardwire cloth or half in deer fencing on both sides on kennel fencing. .
I prided on how everyone loved how my birds were that I sold. 
Once I find out what's going on I'm going to rebuild. With a vengeance for sure. My dream was mottled breda. It will happen . .


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## Maryellen

Necropsy update :
Dead australorp had heavy capillary infestation. - roundworms. .. fluevenet? Treats the neomodes... (spelling off).
The results should be ready in a few days of the rest of the necropsy. I'm reading up on them. I had just dewormed with valbazen and prior to that wazine, so I'm a bit confused, as I dosed everyone with valbazen and then redosed,8 days later. The wazine was 3 weeks prior to the valbazen. 
Right now I put the 2 breda pullets that are 3 months old and molting bad inside. I just dosed them with safeguard. They are thin, but poop is normal (they just pooped) and are eating like crazy . Two food bowls and two water bowls with safeguard in them. One of them has the black mark getting bigger on her wattle. It's cold here so they are hiding in the nest boxes and not eating due to being sick as well. Now inside they are eating and drinking. The state said they can tel how much I care about my chickens, said I'm going the extra mile to find out what is wrong and they are impressed how much I care about them. They said they are going to help me as much as possible. I'm hoping the necropsy shows something , then the bloodwork and swabs hopefully will be back next week


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## robin416

When the immune system is compromised by an illness it can allow for internal parasites to multiply. A study in horses showed those with strong immune systems didn't need to be wormed at all but when illness struck things changed.


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## Maryellen

The state said something like that too today.


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## seminole wind

Capillaria are the hardest to get rid of. I had one silkie necropsied and she died from a capillaria infestation which led to getting cocci and e. coli. She was wormed every few months with the Valbazen. It makes me wonder why her and no one else. Maybe she was compromised before that.

Anyway, pretty interesting. Necropsies always start with what is seen by eye.


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## seminole wind

boskelli1571 said:


> The thing is, if you don't test for Mareks and your birds show no signs of disease, how do you know? This is what bothers me about the NPIP scheme. It is a great thing to be able to prevent human disease by poultry improvement/culling, but why not improve the poultry itself?
> If they were to test for Mareks I think they would probably find a huge number of flocks infected but showing no disease.
> There is also controversy around the vaccine itself with some folks saying that it is more of a curse than a cure.
> I think your practice of not admitting other birds to your flock is very sound.
> I would like to be able to do this, but I want to start a breeding program with the Bredas', so I have to admit some birds. Strict quarantine is par for the course here, 30 day minimum longer as necessary.


Sue you are so right. I understand the curse of the vaccine-if it eliminates symptoms, then how does one know if their chickens carry it.

Mine was easy to know where it came from but I didn't know I had Marek's for over a year . I had my first victim rooster euthanized by a vet and he did a "vet office" necropsy and said my roo must have had EEE because he saw no tumors. And my roo had All the classic symptoms.

Anyway, I had a closed flock but bought one pullet from a breeder. She was the only one that could have brought it in.


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## chickenqueen

ME.I'm glad to see you are prepared to come out swinging.Keep up the attitude!!!


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## dawg53

ME. Wazine acts as a large roundworm flush, that's all. It doesnt treat for any other types of worms. Your soil contains eggs from different types of worms. Birds constantly peck the soil, picking up worm eggs and ingesting them. The eggs are excreted and become infective, to be picked up again by your birds. They end up in the digestive tract and become larva where they attach themselves to the intestinal wall and grow into adults. The adults produce hundreds of eggs each day which are excreted onto your soil in feces, where they are picked again by your birds....completing the worms lifecycle.
Capillary worms can be found in the digestive tract, crop and esophagus.
Flubenvet will treat these worms. It's an approved wormer found in the UK and you cannot buy it here in the US.
Off label wormers here in the US have to be used to treat for worms in poultry, such as; valbazen, safeguard, levamisole, pyrantal pamoate, especially if birds are kept on the same ground. (By law, the necropsy people cant mention using the off label wormers I just mentioned because they are not designated for use in poultry.)
Birds rotated into different pens onto "clean soil," or especially birds up off the ground in wire cages greatly reduces the chances of birds getting worms. Tilling limed "used" soil and letting it sit for a period of time also helps.
Putting valbazen or safeguard in food or water is INEFFECTIVE. They must be given orally to each bird...one at a time in order to be effective.

Now you know why I worm my birds once a month.

I suspect the rest of your flock has a high wormload of various types of worms.
Here's what you need to do:
FRIDAY (tomorrow): Withhold feed from all your chickens for 24 hours, water is okay. Do not let them eat anything...no treats, no free ranging, nada. SATURDAY morning first thing prior to 8am: Use a syringe without the needle. Withdraw 3/4cc valbazen into the syringe and dose each chicken orally.
At 12pm noontime, give them their feed to eat...a little at a time. They will be hungry from not eating and will gorge their feed. If you give them too much feed to eat, they might get crop or gizzard impacted.
SUNDAY; let them eat normally. Remove all feeders after they go to roost for the night.
MONDAY: Prior to 8am, worm all your birds 3/4cc valbazen. Give them their feed at noontime.
TUESDAY; let them eat normally. Remove all feeders after they go to roost for the night.
WEDNESDAY: Prior to 8am, worm all your birds 3/4cc valbazen. Give them their feed at noontime.

Thereafter, worm each bird orally every month. Give your birds 3/4cc valbazen, then repeat dosing them every other day for a total of 3 days.
When you give them safeguard liquid goat wormer, give each bird 2cc's orally every other day for a total of 3 days.
You can also give them Nemex 2 (pyrantal pamoate) for dogs. Dosage is 2.5cc's given orally to each chickens, repeat dosage every other day for a total of 3 days.
When you orally administer a liquid wormer, give it 1/2cc at a time so the liquid wont flood the mouth and go down the windpipe.
Cradle the bird in your forearm, use your fingers and pull down on the wattles, her mouth will open. If she shakes her head, hang on, she'll get tired.
Then use your free hand to grab the preloaded syringe with the wormer in it. Then shoot the liquid wormer in her mouth and immediately let go of her wattles so she can swallow the liquid on her own.
Or you can get someone to hold the hen for you while pull the wattles down and shoot the liquid in her mouth. It's important to let go of the wattles right away after shooting the liquid in her mouth.


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## dawg53

One other thing about strong immune systems. Chickens arnt like mammals. Chickens get stressed very easily, even a fart in the wind will get their attention and make them wary since they instinctively know they are on everyones menu.
Giving proper feed, clean water, picking up and disposing of feces, soiled litter and providing strict biosecurity measures helps promote strong immune systems.


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## Maryellen

Thanks Dawg, I work full time so I am . limited on how I can deworm..I get home in the dark, can I give them the worming meds then? I lock everyone up once I get home so they have no access to food or water till morning. My husband really can't help much due to being disabled, his coordination is off so holding or dosing is on me entirely.


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## Maryellen

Every morning I clean the coop before I go to work of poop and rake the run too.


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## seminole wind

ME, I do mine at night, it's easier. I put a headband around my neck and tuck in a small flashlight so it aims on the chicken when I hold it. My worst fighters are my silkies, LOL


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## Maryellen

Dawg, where is that link you posted for the fluevenet


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## chickenqueen

I worm mine in the mornings because I read it's best done on an empty stomach.I'm lucky because I have Dale to help.ME,you could do it on an off day.Could Bill at least hold them so you could dose them?I can't imagine doing it by myself.


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## dawg53

Maryellen said:


> Dawg, where is that link you posted for the fluevenet


I dont recall posting a link where to purchase flubenvet. I even checked previous threads with my posts regarding flubenvet.


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## seminole wind

Flubenvet is a wormer sold in GB. The ingredient is Flubendazole. The drug we have that is the MOST like Flubendazole is ALbendazole. Which is sold under the name 
Valbazen. Valbazen needs to be given by mouth.


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## Maryellen

CQ he gets frustrated fast and any type of stress shuts him down. Just helping the state on Monday put him out of commission


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## Maryellen

No word yet on necropsy or bloodwork. Hopefully next week sometime


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## chickenqueen

I can't imagine doing it by myself but Sem and Dawg do it so I reckon it can be done.I believe worming individually is the best because you know they got a full dose.I worm first thing in the morning(after some coffee,of course!!!)because I read it's best done on an empty stomach.With help,it takes 30 min or less for almost 30 birds.But you know they got a full dose.


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## dawg53

Ditto CQ, well said!


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## Maryellen

The state just called. Mareks and MG.


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## Maryellen

2 bredas I got in Aug that were sneezing on the way home and the 3 I just got in oct have mareks and mg. 
The state said my old ameracauna I got 4 years ago has mareks,she became blind in one eye 2 yrs ago but has never been sick. The state said she probably had mareks when I bought her from the breeder who raises ameracaunas


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## Nm156

No offence to you ME ,but all this chatter I hear about the hatcherys(meyer,murray etc.) being bad and evil, but almost ever time I hear people getting birds from private breeders they ended up with sick chickens and have to cull their flocks.


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## robin416

Nm, I have to argue that with you. All but two of my birds were bought from breeders. I never brought a disease in with any new birds. You hear about those people because they have a problem. I only know one who lost her flock because of new bird.


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## Maryellen

Ok 
I am needing help. Best and painless way to euthanize evergone5. I will be doing it myself at night to make it easy on all my birds. 
And from what I read mareks will be in my yard forever


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## nannypattyrn

Did I miss something? Did you get a Merek diagnosis?


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## Maryellen

Mareks AND mg


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## Maryellen

I called my vet to see if they can give me something to euthanize all the chickens at night like a needle


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## nannypattyrn

I'm so sorry! Karen uses vodka and tubes it. For us, we just use a shot gun, but we're outside the city limits. Some of the others will chime in on their methods.


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## robin416

When it comes to entire flock I have no idea how or what the easiest way is to put them down. I like the suggestion of calling your vet to see if they have anything that might help. Ask the state too.

I am so sorry this is the outcome.


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## Maryellen

The state won't do it 
. They said if they had ILT they would have.


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## Maryellen

24 birds I have to cull.

Is there anything to treat the yard for mareks? Like oxine, bleach , lye. Anything?


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## Maryellen

I notified the people who bought chickens from me , I feel beyond horrible. What if their birds get sick from the ones I sold them. This is like a domino effect


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## seminole wind

ME, you have me in tears. That is the most awful double whammy I've ever heard. I am so so so sorry. I can't begin to tell you how my heart hurts for you. 

Unless you just want to chop their head off quickly (most humane), I like giving 40-50 ml of vodka with a tube. Takes 45-90 minutes. Either it will kill them or they will be unconscious and not know you have an ax. I usually dig the hole first. Everyone gets a prayer.

I know nothing about how mg is spread. If you deal with Marek's, there is life after Marek's. You vaccinate day olds, and quarantine them, and sell eggs. Or let someone else hatch your eggs and sell the unexposed chicks.

NM makes a very very good point. Hatchery chicken layers are normally screened for diseases that spread thru mother to egg to chick and their eggs are shipped in from other places. Then hatchery chicks are hatched in mass incubators, and shipped out within a day, which does not leave time for exposure to anything . I feel hatchery chicks and my incubator chicks are as safe as I can get. 

I only bought ONE pullet in my 10 years of chickenhood. And that's where the Marek's came from. There was no other way, no other chickens near me. So many breeders are good, but being a breeder does not make one free from disease. Years back there was a new place that sold only rare chicks and I got chatting with a few that had ordered from there and had their own chicks die (exposure).


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## Maryellen

I'm going to think hard about what to do. Probably cull everyone. But the mareks is in the ground, so either way I'm totally fucked. Some people on other forums are breeding for resistance, some arent. My vet will call me tomorrow with her idea for a mass cull. 
The state told me the hen that brought mareks in is my 55. She went blind in one eye, has never been sick. The state said she is the carrier and had it already when I bought her from the npip breeder 4 yrs ago. The mottled breda who were sneezing on my way home brought the mg....


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## Maryellen

So now, do I kill everyone. Do I not . Do I breed for resistance. A friend of mine told me she knows a npip breeder who does not vaccine and who culls any sick chickens and sells as well, who had a hen die last year and she was pretty sure it was mareks when she opened the dead hen up. This breeder doesn't tell anyone that she breeds for resistance. Now does that mean any birds she sells are carriers? And she goes to shows too... worst part, she gave me 2 hens two years ago....


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## Maryellen

Mg is spread thru sick birds , wild birds, shoes,clothes, hair.


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## Nm156

If you don't cull you're just going to be doing what was done to you.


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## Maryellen

Nm I'm not selling nor breeding. I already emailed everyone who I gave it sold birds to over the past three years and advised them of the test and that I will reimburse the cost I charged . I'm waiting for my vet to call me tomorrow for a price on euthanizing all my birds.


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## Nm156

https://www.chickenforum.com/threads/euthanasia-information.12699/


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## seminole wind

ME, that's what I thought when I discovered Marek's. Cull them all? It would not change anything at all. Marek's is still here. So I keep a closed flock and vaccinate and quarantine all day old chicks or the hatchery does it. With Marek's you can still breed and sell eggs.

But, from what I know about mg, it can be spread vertically. Like hen to embryo to chick. So it can be spread through eggs.

If no one is leaving, it will make no difference whether you cull or not. 

If your Australorp had it all this time, why did any chicks you got not get paralysis or die at 4-10 weeks?


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## seminole wind

Boskelli (Sue) seems to be another good source for Marek's information . 
I hope some members can step forward with information on mg.


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## Maryellen

No chicks died here except 2 at a few days old in my living room. One at 10 days in my livingroom.


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## Maryellen

I won't sell eggs or chicks. I'm not going to get anyone else flock infected.


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## Maryellen

The ameracauna is the one the state said had it the whole time. But I've had chicks here outside and no one died except hens by hawks and a weasel. I have not had any one die to just die


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## Maryellen

I am.going over my options. Since I can't sell eggs since I don't know who has mg or not I might just hatch for myself. Keep for myself hens and cull roosters..
The state said 4 tested with bloodwork for mg on the porch and the other 4 for mareks. She said if I want everyone blood tested in my coop she will come back and do bloodwork on the rest


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## Maryellen

The state texted me this 

Mary Ellen the mareks and MG testing were done with blood not swabs The test was done at Georgia. I tested 4 birds for Mareks and 4 birds for MG. The MG was done using a screening test and would need confirmation by a follow up test with blood
It may be that all the birds have Mareks. I will call you Monday.


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## seminole wind

blood test for Marek's is the best in testing for it. if one has it you can assured they all do. I don't know any thing about mg .


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## Maryellen

Bill and I have been talking . He wants me to keep the chickens. Let them live . I told him I'm weighing my options carefully. Since my breeding program was just destroyed I can scrap that idea. I can't be npip tested ever again unless I move and start over with hatchery chicks. So that's out. .
We might move in a few years to Virginia, if we do I'll start over. None of the chickens here will go with us. I'll burn the coops as well. ..
I'm pretty crushed. Double whammy I wasn't expecting .


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> ME, that's what I thought when I discovered Marek's. Cull them all? It would not change anything at all. Marek's is still here. So I keep a closed flock and vaccinate and quarantine all day old chicks or the hatchery does it. With Marek's you can still breed and sell eggs.
> 
> But, from what I know about mg, it can be spread vertically. Like hen to embryo to chick. So it can be spread through eggs.
> 
> If no one is leaving, it will make no difference whether you cull or not.
> 
> If your Australorp had it all this time, why did any chicks you got not get paralysis or die at 4-10 weeks?


It's possible for a bird to be infected with Mareks and not show any signs outwardly. They usually succumb to either tumor growth or superi-nfection since the blood counts are usually low - I know I'm preaching to the choir here Karen  
There is life after MG also - if you are careful. It's highly contagious spread by respiratory stuff like breathing, sneezing, dust etc. and yes it can pass to the embryo - so no breeding from infected stock and infected birds are carriers for life.
However, if you have the room, time and space you could theoretically build another flock that is completely self-contained and a very good distance from your infected flock. Each circumstance would have to be carefully studied - like wind direction, keeping wild birds out, strict biosecurity, only buy from reputable breeders and get all new birds tested prior to adding them to the flock...all takes time, money and dedication.
I'm having a similar problem with lymphoid leukosis right now, I'm watching my Bredas' drop one by one. I have 2 Breda hens that are clean, other than that I don't know - it's very disheartening.


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## seminole wind

Sue you are not preaching to the choir, although funny the way you said it. I didn't realize that you were fighting another battle with Bredas. I don't know much about LL other than it's harder for a lab or owner to differentiate between the two .


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## Maryellen

I'm not bringing any more in and won't sell eggs or chickens. I'll just let everyone live out their lives. Once everyone is gone we are destroying both coops that bill made for me and burning them. When we move I'll start over, new coops new birds and be a closed flock and only hatch my own . I'll find someone who has been tested for mareks and mg that I can confirm with the state we move to and go from there. 

The only birds that had signs were 2 of the 6 breda that were sneezing on the way home and the 3 in oct with the black mark on her wattle and the 2nd one that came with the cuckoo now has a black scab on her wattle. Once the 6 came the sneezing started soon after that with my flock. Then when the 3 arrived it started again but worse


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## Maryellen

The 6 arrived end of july. Took me a month to get the 2 older hens to stop sneezing with tylan, oxytetracycline and then the breeder told me to try denagard. The denagard worked. 
Then after the quarantine was over and everyone was together. .


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> Sue you are not preaching to the choir, although funny the way you said it. I didn't realize that you were fighting another battle with Bredas. I don't know much about LL other than it's harder for a lab or owner to differentiate between the two .


LL is quite insidious. It starts to manifest after 14 weeks, by which time you think 'everyone is healthy'. I went to the coop one mornig and found 2 dead - no reason so I had them necropsied. Cornell said Mareks but they were 15 weeks old. I didn't know any better at that time, but since then with Gomezs' infection and Lurch showing some indications of osteopetrosis, I really think it's LL. The ramaining 'healthy' bird is a pullet - if she makes it past her first molt, then I will breed her - if I ever get a rooster!


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## seminole wind

Is Osteopetrosis possibly a limp that gets worse in some ending in not walking?

I have had Marek's affect chickens older than a year, and one over two over 2 years old. Due to immunosuppression secondary to Marek's, my last effort is to hit them with multi antibiotic cocktail and corid. Quite a few have gotten better that way. I target Cocci, E.coli, c. perfingens (Clostridium). Aspergillosis would be great to treat as well, but it's not possible. Those are the most common bacteria-/fungus/cocci/clostridium that a chicken will have and grow out of control. More I can't do other than worm and de-bug.


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## seminole wind

Here's a link for Virkon
http://virkon.us/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2017/11/EPA-39967-137_Virkon-S_10lb_20170513.pdf


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## dawg53

Birds with MG/MS should be culled, then incinerated. Disinfect everything and repopulate in as little as a month with hatchery birds.
Anything less is perpetuating the disease.


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## boskelli1571

It starts as a 


seminolewind said:


> Is Osteopetrosis possibly a limp that gets worse in some ending in not walking?
> 
> I have had Marek's affect chickens older than a year, and one over two over 2 years old. Due to immunosuppression secondary to Marek's, my last effort is to hit them with multi antibiotic cocktail and corid. Quite a few have gotten better that way. I target Cocci, E.coli, c. perfingens (Clostridium). Aspergillosis would be great to treat as well, but it's not possible. Those are the most common bacteria-/fungus/cocci/clostridium that a chicken will have and grow out of control. More I can't do other than worm and de-bug.


It starts as a limp but progresses to inability to walk eventually. 
It is an overproduction of bone which is porous, with decreased density and increased likelihood of fractures. If you want to read about it, here's a link:
https://archaozoology.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/know-your-pathology-avian-osteopetrosis . Not sure how to direct link so sorry!


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## Maryellen

Question for everyone.. I have hatched out alot of chicks here, which all went outside on the grass where the chickens walked,poooped, dust bathed, etc.. why didn't any of the chicks die? I hatched in the house, and once the weather was warm all the chicks went out in the grass in x pens .. if I had mareks for years wouldn't all the chicks I hatched out die? None of them died, I must have hatched out 15 chicks every year.. and had 2 broodies hatch outside in kennels on both coop areas... none of the chicks died. Even this past summer I hatched out chicks and put them outside ... wouldn't they all have died if mareks was here ?


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## Maryellen

Dawg the state said I have mg and mareks, leaning now more to mareks per them today when they called again. Now I'm really confused


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## dawg53

Maryellen said:


> Dawg the state said I have mg and mareks, leaning now more to mareks per them today when they called again. Now I'm really confused


Sorry to hear that ME. Next time they call, ask them which is it...marek's or MG....or both?
I cant give you advice about marek's, Dont know much about it. That's Karen's and Sue's forte.
The common respiratory diseases I know about; IB, MG/MS, ILT and coryza.


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## seminole wind

ME how many did you hatch out after October? Before? I hatched some chicks in the beginning before I knew I had it and they were fine. But mareks doesn't follow the rules. Did you hatch any after getting the Bredas?


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## Maryellen

I didn't hatch anything since the bredas in march. I was going to do another batch, had 22 eggs in the incubator then when the 2 died at thanksgiving I threw all the eggs out in the incubator since I had no clue what happened to the 2 pullets .

Dawg the state said 4 birds tested bloodwork for mareks, and 4 tested positive bloodwork for MG . The 8 I put in cages on the porch to be specifically tested with bloodwork. 

I asked the state how I was able to hatch twice a year and have no chicks die when I put them out and this is their response :


Maryellen

Not necessarily I think poultry can have Marek’s and still hatch out birds every year, this is one of the reasons it is so prevalent. You also dewormed your chickens but had a heavy load of Capillaria. The biggest thing about an immunosuppressive virus is that it usually doesn’t come to light until there is a stressor on the flock. The virus can be transferred in dander.


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## seminole wind

True. That's one reason Marek's is so hard to look for symptoms in your flock. The most prominent and recognizeable symptom is a chick most likely age 6-12 week, but not necessarily, have paralysis in one leg. Everything else is a guessing game. I've had 3 accidentally hatched chicks under a silkie 3 years ago that I euthanized at 7-8 months old with paralysis. 

Then, if a chicken in a flock is exposed but doesn't get symptoms, they end up with the virus-caused immunosuppression. So my chickens are usually on the thinner side. No one is fat. 

I think a lot of variance in who gets the symptoms has some to do with concentration of virus on the property, and of course their personal immune system. I do also believe that if chicks are hatched and exposed, and go to live elsewhere for a few months, and come back, they seem to have more resistance.


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## Maryellen

All the chicks I hatched here stayed till 3 -4 months old , grew fat. Only 5 chicks were given away young with 3 of them at 3 weeks old and 2 at 2 months old. Those 5 never hit my yard, but every other one hit the yard at a few weeks old and alot of them were born to broodys outside in the coops


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## Maryellen

So all the chicks hatched here have it possibly . None have died as I keep in touch with everyone who has them as they are friends of mine. A few that went next door got killed by a hawk but no one dropped dead or had any issues


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## dawg53

The 4 birds that tested positive for MG; it's safe to say that birds not showing MG symptoms are carriers and has and/or will spread through your flock.


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## Maryellen

Yeah that's what the state said to dawg


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## Maryellen

State just called again . Apparently Georgia messed up.the tests ugh. She said 6 birds tested positive for titers of mareks and 2 for mg. She said the tests say it tests for exposure and antibodies?? Said that maybe my chickens were exposed . But lab said they need more bloodwork to do stronger test as she had them do the Eliza titer test (which I've used for dogs for titers).
Now I'm even more confused


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## seminole wind

I don't think your birds had marèks prior to getting your bredas. You would have seen something before this. I do believe that you got hit with marèks and MG with more recent new birds. Both. One did not lead to the other. Marèks didn't cause respiratory symptoms.


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> State just called again . Apparently Georgia messed up.the tests ugh. She said 6 birds tested positive for titers of mareks and 2 for mg. She said the tests say it tests for exposure and antibodies?? Said that maybe my chickens were exposed . But lab said they need more bloodwork to do stronger test as she had them do the Eliza titer test (which I've used for dogs for titers).
> Now I'm even more confused


ME - how old were your chickens that died? I was told by Cornell lab that my birds had Mareks, but I believe they had LL. I'm not sure about Georgia, but there is a lab in Ca. that runs a specific test for LL - I will try to find our who.....ok. Oftentimes the testing is not specific enough, they need to do PCR testing for DNA. Then they can differentiate between Mareks and LL.
My contact only knew of UC Davis in Ca. that would do it. Ask if they do it in Georgia, if not, you can request they send specs. to UC Davis


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## Maryellen

Both were 6 months old


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> Both were 6 months old


You were told these birds had Mareks? If so, I would question whether or not they had LL instead...


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## Maryellen

The australorp I was told had mareks. The Breda pullet was in the fridge to long to have a proper necropsy done. The australorp had a capillary overload. I'm still waiting for the rest of the necropsy to come back


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## Maryellen

The 3 new Breda I got oct 28 all tested positive for mareks with a blood test per the state


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## Maryellen

And I was told the Georgia lab said 6 birds had mareks, the 3 I got in oct and 3 in my wire cage .


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## Maryellen

July 29 I drove home with 6 bredas. The 2 older hens were sneezing the whole ride home. I texted the breeder on my way home and she advised she didn't hear them sneezing, to which I replied you had them in your trunk in cardboard boxes how would you hear them. I took them out of the boxes in the parking lot and put them in my rabbit cage, it was 90 degree out and I didn't want then in a box. They did not sneeze while we were putting them in my cage. 15 minutes into my 2 hr ride home is when they stsrted sneezing.


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> July 29 I drove home with 6 bredas. The 2 older hens were sneezing the whole ride home. I texted the breeder on my way home and she advised she didn't hear them sneezing, to which I replied you had them in your trunk in cardboard boxes how would you hear them. I took them out of the boxes in the parking lot and put them in my rabbit cage, it was 90 degree out and I didn't want then in a box. They did not sneeze while we were putting them in my cage. 15 minutes into my 2 hr ride home is when they stsrted sneezing.


When you talk with hte State people, ask if they did PCR testing for Mareks v. LL, if not you can request it.
Apparently, the 2 diseases are easily misdiagnosed b/c they are so similar. My contact tells me that the only sure way is by PCR testing.


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## Maryellen

Ok thanks. So far one person had all her birds tested that I sold her and all came up negative . Whew


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## seminole wind

Yea. ME, at least ask them how they differentiate between the two.

Sue, what are the chances that a bird has both? I know LL does not cause paralysis (.?)


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## seminole wind

ME, if one tested positive for Marèks, they all are positive. Probably the same for MG.


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> Yea. ME, at least ask them how they differentiate between the two.
> 
> Sue, what are the chances that a bird has both? I know LL does not cause paralysis (.?)


Good question! I would guess it's possible to get both, but I think that would be from a very unhealthy flock or dire and unfortunate circumstances. Having said that, LL does lower resistance significantly, so I think it would be possible to get Mareks from a different bird that is sick - remember that not all Mareks sufferers get tumors
It would be interesting to do a study on it tho' - I suspect that many Mareks' deaths have been ascribed to LL and vice versa.
It seems that neither disease 'follows the rules' in all cases. www.ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/171838/2/tb1412.pdf 
This article is a bit lengthy, bit pages 1-4 describe the similarities of Mareks and LL.


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