# Worming/molt



## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Early this morning I started a 3 day stretch worming my birds. Our soil has stayed wet from all the rain we're having. Two more days of the safeguard liquid goat wormer and they'll be good to go. However if the rain continues, I'll hit them with pyrantal pamoate next month. 
Tip: Dont give fenbendazole (safeguard/panacur) to birds when starting molt or while in molt. Their feathers will regrow retarded, ingrown or curly. I learned that a long time ago.
It's best not worm birds in molt anyway. Molt is stressful on their system. I'd only worm birds in molt if it were an absolute necessity. 
I normally switch from layer feed to gamebird feed when birds are in molt. Gamebird feed has a higher percentage of protein which helps with feather regrowth. Once they're feathered out, I wean them off the gamebird feed back to layer feed without any issues.


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## Alaskan (Aug 22, 2015)

What percentage protein is the game bird? 28%?


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Alaskan said:


> What percentage protein is the game bird? 28%?


Yes. Last year I had a sack that was 28% protein.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Dawg, what brand gamebird feed do you use?


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> Dawg, what brand gamebird feed do you use?


Whatever is available. Last year I used Southern States.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

dawg53 said:


> Early this morning I started a 3 day stretch worming my birds. Our soil has stayed wet from all the rain we're having. Two more days of the safeguard liquid goat wormer and they'll be good to go. However if the rain continues, I'll hit them with pyrantal pamoate next month.
> Tip: Dont give fenbendazole (safeguard/panacur) to birds when starting molt or while in molt. *Their feathers will regrow retarded, ingrown or curly. I learned that a long time ago.*
> It's best not worm birds in molt anyway. Molt is stressful on their system. I'd only worm birds in molt if it were an absolute necessity.
> I normally switch from layer feed to gamebird feed when birds are in molt. Gamebird feed has a higher percentage of protein which helps with feather regrowth. Once they're feathered out, I wean them off the gamebird feed back to layer feed without any issues.


I think I have a hen with funny feathers from worming. Should maybe get a picture of her.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Hmmm. With all the treats and free ranging, I use a higher protein.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

I started worming my birds yesterday, thanks to all the rain. I wormed them with safeguard liquid goat wormer except for the one BR in molt. She got a dose of liquid pyrantel pamoate. Normally I dont worm birds in molt, but made an exception in this instance. This morning they all got dosed with pyrantal pamoate equine paste (Exodus.) Tomorrow will be their last day for worming.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

How do you worm all the chickebs? I have the safeguard wormed and 20 chickens


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

I am feeding flock raiser at 20% protein and layer crumble at 16% as some of mine are molting too and manna pro game bird crumble


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

And do you worm every 10 days or 30?


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

My one hen that is inside due to an injury has roundworms, I had the vet do a fecal just to see


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Maryellen, if she has worms I would worm her and everyone else. Best is Valbazen. You may want to treat twice 10 days apart, then monthly.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

I'm going to treat them all yes, I just hot the valbazen last night and the safeguard goat wormer.
How do I treat the other 19 chickens? Dropper each one or ?I haven't read the valbazen instructions yet


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Maryellen said:


> How do you worm all the chickebs? I have the safeguard wormed and 20 chickens


Dont worm birds in molt with safeguard. If you do, feathers will be regrown retarded, ingrown and twisted out of shape. You can use valbazen or pyrantal pamoate.
Valbazen liquid cattle/sheep wormer is administered using a syringe without a needle. Dosage is 1/2cc given orally undiluted to each chicken. Repeat again in 10 days.
Pyrantal pamoate equine paste dosage is a "pea" size amount given orally to each chicken for 3 days straight.
Pyrantal pamoate liquid wormer is administered using a syringe without a needle. Dosage is 1/2cc given orally undiluted to each chicken 3 days in a row.
It's always best to worm birds early in the mornings prior to feeding. The worms will be hungry, feed them the wormer for better effectiveness in killing the worms.
Wazine can be given in a pinch. Wazine is not a broad spectrum wormer and only eliminates large roundworms. Dosage is one ounce wazine per one gallon of water for 24 hours only. Put it out first thing in the morning for the birds to drink. It must be their sole source of water to drink during the day. Discard in the evening after your birds have gone to roost for the night. Keep in mind that during cooler/colder temps, birds drink less. It would be better to use valbazen or pyrantal pamoate on birds in molt. Of course you can use either product on all your birds at once.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Oops, just saw your post #14. Just use the valbazen. The directions are in my previous post #15.
The reason you now need to worm monthly is due to the fact that your soil has roundworm eggs in it. Chickens constantly pick soil, picking up the eggs and swallowing them. This is called the 'direct' lifecycle. There's no way to treat the soil. Monthly worming will eventually end the worms lifecycle. Rotate wormers later down the road. I do this on a monthly basis as well.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

So I worm every month with valbazen? So I can't eat eggs then till spring once I stop deworming correct? This will be fun catching them to give them the med omg


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Maybe I'm better with the paste then, to give each bird 3 days straight


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

How did roundworms get in the soil? Does every piece of land have roundworms?


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Maryellen said:


> How did roundworms get in the soil? Does every piece of land have roundworms?


There's all kinds of no see um's in the soil...everywhere.


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## Alaskan (Aug 22, 2015)

No... Roundworms are not everywhere... But they are in lots of places.

Some places have super heavy concentrations.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Last year I had none, I had poop tested last year. This year now I have tgem. Omg does this mean my dogs have tgem? Crap 2 of my dogs eat chicken poop omg noooooooo


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Where do roundworms come from?


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Nematodes are everywhere. Be glad you're not dealing with cestodes. They are a pain in the neck to get rid of in chickens. I've dealt with worms long enough to know. Your dogs cannot get roundworms from eating worm/egg infected chicken poop, and visa versa. They are host specific.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nematode


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Thanks dawg. I'm now grossed out lol. Luckily priscilla has been inside my house so no dirt for her so getting rid of her roundworms will be easy, I also pick out her poop every time she poops so she hopefully doesn't reinfect herself. She got safeguard the other day she isn't molting so in 10 days she will get the valbazen, she is easy to dose and loves to be hekd. The rest will be a challenge to hold and give it to them. Half of it spills down their beaks and gets wasted. 
Half a cc is half the syringe correct?
I have the thin ones here


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I can get most of my chickens with bread cubes with 1/2 ml soaked in each. The rest get it at night with a 1 ml syringe place past the trachea.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

I'm left handed. I cradle the hen in my right forearm. I grab the preloaded syringe with my left hand. Then using my right thumb and finger, I pull the hens wattles down while cradling her, and her mouth opens. I then squirt the 1/2cc into her mouth and IMMEDIATELY let go of the wattles so she can swallow the liquid on her own. If you dont immediately let go of the wattles, the liquid can go down her windpipe and she'd aspirate. Then there would be big problems. 
When grabbing the wattles, the hen might shake her head and struggle. Hang on tight, she will tire and eventually stop struggling.
Then release the hen after giving her the wormer, preload your syringe and grab another chicken and repeat the procedure.
It's best to worm them early while they're penned up before releasing them to free range.
I'd like to add that other liquids can be given in this manner, an antibiotic for example. However if the dosage requires more than 1/2cc, for example 1cc, only give 1/2cc at a time orally. A chicken can only swallow so much liquid at a time. After she swallows the first 1/2cc, wait a few seconds and then give her the second 1/2cc. I've found that 1/2cc is just about the right amount to give without any problems.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> I can get most of my chickens with bread cubes with 1/2 ml soaked in each. The rest get it at night with a 1 ml syringe place past the trachea.


I tried the bread cube approach a years ago. At times the bread got soggy and fell apart, or some birds got more than their share (overdosed a bit,) or some birds just wouldnt attempt to eat it at all. It was frustrating and time consuming. I even separated them and tried giving treated bread individually one at a time and it was 50/50 whether the bird would gobble it down or not.
I hope you've had better success than me with the soaked bread cubes. 
I'm sticking with the syringe treatment; quick, easy, and no guesswork about it.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

That's what I'm afraid of, shooting the liquid wrong and them dying


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

I'm going to try the paste in pea form, I can get them to eat out of my hand so this might be easier


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Ok, the paste isn't thick enough to roll into a pea and hold its shape, can I put it in the fridge to try to get it thicker?


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Is flea/tick topical like Frontline used for deworming like ivermec?


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

So since I gave to worm every month I have to toss the eggs correct. I'm going to use the valbazen


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Maryellen said:


> Ok, the paste isn't thick enough to roll into a pea and hold its shape, can I put it in the fridge to try to get it thicker?


You can put it on a piece of bread and give a piece to each chicken individually, but it's still kind of messy and the bird may or may not eat the treated bread. Unlike a liquid wormer, the paste will stick to bread. 
I cradle the hen between my arm and body and put a pea sized amount on my finger. Then force the beak open and put (wipe) the paste in the hens mouth, then release her and grab another hen and repeat.
Too bad we dont live closer, I'd do it for you with the valbazen. If the birds are put in a small pen where they can be easily grabbed, I can worm 20 birds in 20 minutes.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

If bread doesn't work, you could transfer the paste to a syringe and give it that way. This is how I do mine:
http://www.hopkinslivestock.com/oral_dosing_article.htm

1/2 cc or 1/2ml of paste is about the size of a pea.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

My house hen is easy to handle, the others are not. I'm going to try at night when they go to bed, then I can crawl in the coop and try to get them then to eat it. , or I can mix it with veggies and they will eat it that way


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Omg I would be so scared I would drown them in medicine if it went the wrong way.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

From left to right:
Small = 0.1 cc = 10 mg 
Medium = 0.25 cc = 25 mg
Large = 0.5 cc = 50 mg

Panacur Paste and Safeguard Past are the same, both are 10% fenbendazole.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Thank you, I am pretty sure I have that syringe, I have 2 different sizes but that one looks like what I have. I'm going to try since it's not a liquid to use the syringe and pop it in their beaks at night and see if that works


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

I does that syringe say ml at the end?


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

The safeguard goat suspension I have is liquid. The equine tube is paste. And I have valbazen liquid .


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Maryellen said:


> I does that syringe say ml at the end?


Not sure if mine says ml or cc, but doesn't matter, 'cause cc = ml.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Oh awesome I didn't know they meant the same thank you


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

You're welcome!


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

So everyone is worned, and will be repeated in 10 days. I haven't seen any worms in their poop yet. Hopefully not all if them had worms.
I used a syringe and tge bread method. Worked great thank you everyone


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Maryellen said:


> So everyone is worned, and will be repeated in 10 days. I haven't seen any worms in their poop yet. Hopefully not all if them had worms.
> I used a syringe and tge bread method. Worked great thank you everyone


Glad you got them wormed. It's unlikely that you'll see worms in poop. Once the worms are released from the intestinal lining they are normally digested as protein. If you used valbazen, it will slowly kill the worms over a period of several days eliminating toxic dead worm overload due intestinal blockages. See pics below as why I prefer valbazen over other wormers (not that I'd ever let this happen in the first place.)


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Ewwwww. I will dewormer faithfully now more then twice a year to make sure I keep them in check


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Birds are dewormed 2nd time now.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Pumpkin:















Source: http://viewer.zmags.com/publication...aign=Acreage+11212015+Newsletter#/570ea92d/25


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

So called natural wormers are questionable at best. You never see anyone posting how to administer the product, dosages, withdrawal periods, side effects, where to purchase, costs, effectiveness on ALL types of worms etc...
I'd bet if one of these "nature" people had a bellyful of worms they'd be screaming bloody murder all the way to the Emergency Room and I'd bet the doctor wouldnt be handing out pumpkin seeds, DE, cayenne pepper neither!


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

I belong to a natural poultry site that gives doses amounts and a woman there makes tonics for various illnesses and preaches all natural remedies. A few if her remedies people used like her bumblefoot one with good results. I gave valbazen for deworming as I wanted to make sure it worked.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

I use natural plants etc for some things but when it comes to worms and other ailments I use the expensive stuff lol that works


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

I've seen prices of natural products in different stores, they arnt cheap. Heck, a tube of Exodus pyrantal pamoate equine paste is only $7 and will worm a flock of 50 chickens more or less, cant beat that price.
A 500ml bottle of Valbazen isnt cheap. But will last you well beyond the 2 to 3 year expiration date from time of purchase.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Aside from wormers; alot of medications are derived from plants, then synthesized. I prefer using chemicals, there's no guesswork regarding administration, dosages, and so on.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

I have plenty experience with bumblefoot. There are two ways to treat it; minor surgery and Tricide Neo. Tricide Neo works, but the drawback from using Tricide Neo is that it takes too much time for the bumblefoot to clear up. It is also expensive for a small amount of the product. If someone is squeamish about surgery, then Tricide Neo is the way to go.
I prefer the surgery; quicker, easier, heals quicker and less stress on the bird.
Putting salves, ointments, tea leaves or whatever on bumblefoot will not clear it up since it is a staph infection. Once the infection reaches the legbone, the staph quickly spreads throughout the system...game over.
The salves, ointments and tea leaves may work for foot pad dermatitis (FPD) which is usually mistaken for bumblefoot, but that's a different story.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

The people that had the bumblefoot on their hens did surgery ,and used natural stuff too. Me personally I prefer the best route possible. I have goat wormer, equine paste and the valbazen for worming. I prefer the most effective methods possible . I feel to each his own, if it works then go for it, but I prefer more proven methods


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Maryellen said:


> The people that had the bumblefoot on their hens did surgery ,and used natural stuff too. Me personally I prefer the best route possible. I have goat wormer, equine paste and the valbazen for worming. I prefer the most effective methods possible . I feel to each his own, if it works then go for it, but I prefer more proven methods


Well said and I agree. It's always good to use what we KNOW works best for the sake of our birds (and other animals.)


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

Ok. It's spring here in December, Temps are really screwed up and it's been 60, the plants are growing and earthworms are coming out of the soggy ground... so should I basically dewormer all winter since we are having warm weather? Help Dawg....


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## MichaelA69 (Sep 5, 2015)

dawg53 said:


> I have plenty experience with bumblefoot. There are two ways to treat it; minor surgery and Tricide Neo. Tricide Neo works, but the drawback from using Tricide Neo is that it takes too much time for the bumblefoot to clear up. It is also expensive for a small amount of the product. If someone is squeamish about surgery, then Tricide Neo is the way to go.
> I prefer the surgery; quicker, easier, heals quicker and less stress on the bird.
> Putting salves, ointments, tea leaves or whatever on bumblefoot will not clear it up since it is a staph infection. Once the infection reaches the legbone, the staph quickly spreads throughout the system...game over.
> The salves, ointments and tea leaves may work for foot pad dermatitis (FPD) which is usually mistaken for bumblefoot, but that's a different story.


I think the biggest problem is the healing process since those wounds heal from the inside out, and fibrous tissue must be periodically removed as this happens without cutting into new tissue. If blood cannot reach the wound due to a pocket of pus/hardened tissue that is too deep, infection continues. This requires bandage/dressing changes ever 24 hours. E.Coli and Enterococcus are the two cultures which are hard to overcome without streptomycin classes of antibiotics. That and a topical like Silvadene are best since they encourage new tissue growth while fighting E. coli. Triple antibiotic ointment which has neomycin is worthless against E. coli or Enterococcus.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

MichaelA69 said:


> I think the biggest problem is the healing process since those wounds heal from the inside out, and fibrous tissue must be periodically removed as this happens without cutting into new tissue. If blood cannot reach the wound due to a pocket of pus/hardened tissue that is too deep, infection continues. This requires bandage/dressing changes ever 24 hours. E.Coli and Enterococcus are the two cultures which are hard to overcome without streptomycin classes of antibiotics. That and a topical like Silvadene are best since they encourage new tissue growth while fighting E. coli. Triple antibiotic ointment which has neomycin is worthless against E. coli or Enterococcus.


I remember you having to deal with that long term issue with your rooster.
Keeping the wound clean and dry afterwards is important. Alot of people use vet wrap. Vet wrap gets wet from nasty puddles. I use duct tape covering the gauze on the wound, wrapped around the toes/foot (not tight.) Also a chicken cant pull the duct tape off the legs or feet lol.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Someone had suggested this tool to me for bumblefoot, but I never needed it since. It some kind of circular cutter like maybe a biopsy remover. Comes in different sizes and Amazon has them. I think they would work great because they cut a circle .


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## MichaelA69 (Sep 5, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> Someone had suggested this tool to me for bumblefoot, but I never needed it since. It some kind of circular cutter like maybe a biopsy remover. Comes in different sizes and Amazon has them. I think they would work great because they cut a circle .


I've seen those too. I found surgical spoons to work quite well.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

It's amazing how many people think garlic and honey will fix almost any ailment in a chicken lol


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

I'm on a natural poultry site, no conventional meds are allowed to be discussed, it's all about natural plants to heal different injuries and ailmenrs (like someone posted their hen got a broken wing from a dog attack, people are posting to wrap the wing in its natural state and give garlic and honey. ....)
I'm sorry but garlic and honey won't reset a broken wing.....


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Maryellen said:


> I'm on a natural poultry site, no conventional meds are allowed to be discussed, it's all about natural plants to heal different injuries and ailmenrs (like someone posted their hen got a broken wing from a dog attack, people are posting to wrap the wing in its natural state and give garlic and honey. ....)
> I'm sorry but garlic and honey won't reset a broken wing.....


LOL. Some people never learn.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

So now I worm again in spring correct? Or do I do when it's 50 here as its been warm then cold then warm


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Maryellen said:


> I'm on a natural poultry site, no conventional meds are allowed to be discussed, it's all about natural plants to heal different injuries and ailmenrs (like someone posted their hen got a broken wing from a dog attack, people are posting to wrap the wing in its natural state and give garlic and honey. ....)
> I'm sorry but garlic and honey won't reset a broken wing.....


And garlic is on the list of foods that can be toxic to birds.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Maryellen said:


> So now I worm again in spring correct? Or do I do when it's 50 here as its been warm then cold then warm


You generally want to worm prior to max egg production in the spring. My hens' egg production has picked up somewhat and I just wormed them a week ago. Of course I'm further south than you but temps have been like a yo-yo also.


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## Maryellen (Jan 21, 2015)

I'm getting between 3-10 a day. I got 10 today and 3 yesterday. So I'll deworm.again this weekend


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

casportpony said:


> And garlic is on the list of foods that can be toxic to birds.


That's killing 2 birds with one stone. Um, I don't mean a stone.


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