# Old Illustration of EOD OEG



## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

Here is an old illustration of an Earl of Derby Old English. You can definitely see the strong







Red Jungle Fowl influence.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Looks nothing like they do today.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

It seems these breeding fashions go in cycles. Various Europeans crossed Jungle Fowl in the 1500s again in the 1700's and then again around 1840s through early 1900s. These EOD recognized standards were already established by 1610.


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## Biring (Sep 24, 2020)

He looks weird with all his wobbly bits dubbed!


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## Biring (Sep 24, 2020)

The more I look at our brown hen the more I see junglefowl genes. Her ears are white! I can't wait to see her new eggs hatch, given the father is 80% junglefowl too. Sadly my wife insisted she's only allowed to hatch 5 eggs. About two more weeks to go!


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

I wonder if there were earlier crosses with Jungle Fowl, allegedly poultry trading and breeding between East/West took place along the Silk Route.


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## Biring (Sep 24, 2020)

Interesting that they painted the sickle feathers green. I would expect beetle black (ie green, black or purple depending on the viewpoint/lightsource).


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

robin416 said:


> Looks nothing like they do today.


That's okay, mine don't look all muscular like the illustration! Too many treats!


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

Biring said:


> View attachment 35864
> The more I look at our brown hen the more I see junglefowl genes. Her ears are white! I can't wait to see her new eggs hatch, given the father is 80% junglefowl too. Sadly my wife insisted she's only allowed to hatch 5 eggs. About two more weeks to go!


Beautiful bird! If you chose to selectively breed some of your birds, would there be a local market or interest for other poultry folks in your area?


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

Biring said:


> Interesting that they painted the sickle feathers green. I would expect beetle black (ie green, black or purple depending on the viewpoint/lightsource).


Good point! There was such a fight over color and conformation, (station), between the Oxford and Carlisle clubs that they eventually froze the standards in time by picking specific paintings to represent the strain. Then they bred to that standard and rejected everything else. Which, long story short, is why I'm still looking for that elusive white trim that was bred out in the early 1900s but was part of the standard before.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

In response to your observation about the green sickle feathers, I used to have that same question. Yes, they were aiming for iridescent black/blue/purple/green. It's been some years since I revisited this but I believe it has to do with the paintings themselves. They were using a roasted copper based pigment to get the iridescence in the paint and it eventually oxidized under the varnish to green. That's one theory. Again this stuff was religion in the early to mid 1800s. It was also a time when wealthy Englishmen were betting land, herds of cattle and the equivalent of twenty thousand dollars on cockfights.


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## Biring (Sep 24, 2020)

Poultry Judge said:


> Beautiful bird! If you chose to selectively breed some of your birds, would there be a local market or interest for other poultry folks in your area?


There are chicken fancier clubs in the region I live in, or at least in the big city a few hours away. People breed various gamebirds for fighting, Polands, and a few other breeds. I saw a pair of silver spangled Hamburghs for sale a few months ago. I'm quite tempted as I kept Hamburghs in the UK and I love them. They are top tier chickens in my view.

There's a market for pure red (and green) junglefowl but I haven't heard of anyone breeding village chickens to bring out as many wild junglefowl traits as possible. Maybe I can create a market! There is certainly a deep gene pool here.


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## Biring (Sep 24, 2020)

Poultry Judge said:


> They were using a roasted copper based pigment to get the iridescence in the paint and it eventually oxidized under the varnish to green.


That's an amazing insight! I would never have thought of that. Funny that people were breeding to standards governed by oxidisation of pigments in old paintings!


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

It was crazy, the whole British Game Club split over what they thought the birds should look like!


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

Biring said:


> There are chicken fancier clubs in the region I live in, or at least in the big city a few hours away. People breed various gamebirds for fighting, Polands, and a few other breeds. I saw a pair of silver spangled Hamburghs for sale a few months ago. I'm quite tempted as I kept Hamburghs in the UK and I love them. They are top tier chickens in my view.
> 
> There's a market for pure red (and green) junglefowl but I haven't heard of anyone breeding village chickens to bring out as many wild junglefowl traits as possible. Maybe I can create a market! There is certainly a deep gene pool here.


You do have access to the deep gene pool!


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

Biring said:


> There are chicken fancier clubs in the region I live in, or at least in the big city a few hours away. People breed various gamebirds for fighting, Polands, and a few other breeds. I saw a pair of silver spangled Hamburghs for sale a few months ago. I'm quite tempted as I kept Hamburghs in the UK and I love them. They are top tier chickens in my view.
> 
> There's a market for pure red (and green) junglefowl but I haven't heard of anyone breeding village chickens to bring out as many wild junglefowl traits as possible. Maybe I can create a market! There is certainly a deep gene pool here.


Spangled Hamburghs are very nice birds! I remember seeing them in the UK when I was in college years ago. Are you involved with any of the chicken fancier clubs? You would certainly be an asset with your knowledge base.


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## Biring (Sep 24, 2020)

I'm not involved with any clubs yet. I've joined a few facebook groups and have been in touch with some breeders who sell Black Sumatras but they cost about 20 times as much as the junglefowl-type birds here. Before I moved to this part of Sumatra I imagined I would be aiming for a flock of long-legged, upright gamebirds but now that I'm paying attention to the chickens in this region my focus has shifted to junglefowl-type birds. I'm very lucky that one of the two hens I was given to get me started is a near-perfect candidate and that two chicks from her first clutch are also just what I'm looking for.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

There are quite a few gamefowl folks on FB as well as lots of specific breed people.


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## Biring (Sep 24, 2020)

I’ve joined a few groups but the members are mostly looking for pure-bred gamefowl.


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## Biring (Sep 24, 2020)

The pullet in the last photo appears to be developing a pea comb. I’ll still aim to use her for breeding but some of her chicks will also have pea combs, which, if I’m strict about it, is an undesirable trait. But probably I’m not going to worry about that kind of detail and instead focus on having lots of pretty birds running around our neighbourhood.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

There is an old saying amongst the Gamefowl folks here that every bird after the Garden of Eden is a cross. I would not worry about the pea combs at all, that's just a preference. Everything is a cross, technically, there are no "purebred" Gamefowl, (except maybe your wild Red Jungle Fowl). Everything else, you establish a standard and breed to it. You could establish a recognized breed where you are now.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Remind me here, aren't combs one of the easier things to fix? Although I know the undesired comb can pop up in future progeny.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

I live seven miles from Warren, Ohio and a hundred years ago in 1896, the Buckeye breed was established by a woman there named Nettie Metcalf. She bred Barred Plymouth Rocks, Buff Cochins and Black Breasted Red Jungle Fowl. The breed was standardized by the American Poultry Association eight years later in 1904 and is currently listed as "watched" by the American Breeds Livestock Conservancy. Nettie was not alone by any means. A hundred years ago, lots of folks were breeding Jungle Fowl crosses. So you can too! And you have access to excellent stock.


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## Biring (Sep 24, 2020)

Well, wild red junglefowl, at the fringes, interbreed with village chickens. That’s the gene pool I’m dealing with. My hens came from a remote village next to the jungle, literally less than 200m from 8,000km2 of pristine jungle. That’s within earshot of a decent wild cockerel’s crowing.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

These things go in cycles with the breeding trends. I am very interested in what they are breeding locally where you are. Here in the States, there are many old school and some new folks breeding very specific Gamefowl strains. There are some organizations like the Kentucky Gamefowl Breeders who do shows. Because cockfighting has been illegal for so long, as in the UK, you don't hear a lot about new strains except in places like the Philippines.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

robin416 said:


> Remind me here, aren't combs one of the easier things to fix? Although I know the undesired comb can pop up in future progeny.


Yes, they are, (the combs), but most breeders are working on other specific traits within conformation and station, for example the colors of sickle feathers, we were discussing. It's just personal preferences. It's like me trying to recover the white beaks and feet gene in the Earl of Derbys, there are probably about three people on the planet who would look at that and say, oh that's neat.


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## Biring (Sep 24, 2020)

I’m not sure about the legality or otherwise of cockfighting here but it certainly happens. A lot. I don’t much care for it myself (and my hens are much feistier anyway). But if some idiot wants to pay 10x what a cockerel is worth I’m happy to sell.


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