# Bubbles in eye



## Maryellen

A friend of mine just called me,her one hen has some bubbles in her eye and is sneezing. She lives in upstate ny on a mountain that is cold and damp. Every time I go visit her I bring a sweatshirt due to the weather. It's yucky there now, been damp and cold for a few days, then warm, then back to damp and cold. 
I told her to remove the hen who has the eye bubbles and sneezing and to give denagard if she had it, she said she only has tylan . That should be good right? Or does she need denagard? She said usually they are sneezing only but this hen has eye bubbles


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## seminole wind

Birds don't care don't catch colds from cold. Tylang-ylang is actually the best. Quarantine her.
Do not go over there or let her come over.


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## Maryellen

I haven't been there in 2 weeks and don't plan on it. I told her what to give hopefully she does and quarantines it


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## Maryellen

She doesn't buy chickens either, she hatched out her own from a few she had, and she said now all her hens are molting and sneezing. I told her to clean everything too


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## Maryellen

What could it be? A woman on the fb forum in upstate ny said her birds had MG they got from a new bird she bought that she quarantined. She had the ny state AG come in and half her birds tested positive for it,she was told it's running rampant up there


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## Maryellen

I have been there since Oct 28. Thankfully.


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> What could it be? A woman on the fb forum in upstate ny said her birds had MG they got from a new bird she bought that she quarantined. She had the ny state AG come in and half her birds tested positive for it,she was told it's running rampant up there


My best guess was going to be MG - it is treatable with the appropriate antibiotics, but it is not curable. It will recur periodically. One bird can infect the whole flock.


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## Maryellen

I let her know and sent her a link to mg. I won't be visiting her anymore, she can also keep one of my cages I lent her as if it is mg I don't want the cage back.


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## Maryellen

Spoke to my friend Missy tonight, she said her coop is covered in dust inside, she uses sand and pdz like me and said she never had an issue till she switched. She is going to use pine shavings this weekend , said everything was dusty and when she tried to clean a spot the dust that rose up.was bad. She is treating everyone with tylan anyway just to be safe and is getting rid of the sand and pdz, said the pdz is bad even in her horse stalls


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## seminole wind

Isn't there some respiratory ailment that passes through the egg?


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## Maryellen

I think that's mg that does. She is panicking, as she hatched out silkie bantams and sold hatching eggs to someone


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## seminole wind

Is that one of those NPIP things?


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## Maryellen

No she isn't npip, she sells local.where she is, she doesn't ship.. the MG supposedly is bad in upstate ny, I don't know if it's near her though. She is in lower Hudson Valley


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## Maryellen

Npip doesn't test for mg, that you have to pay for or pay your vet to do blood tests to send out


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> Isn't there some respiratory ailment that passes through the egg?


MG will pass through the egg, newly hatched chicks will obviously get it from the mother or other infected flock member.
The only way to effectively eradicate it is to cull the flock, disinfect & clean run, coop, equipment etc. and let the area 'sit' for a while, preferably in warmer weather before re-populating.
You can get your flock tested for MG by the NPIP folks, but it costs $$


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## dawg53

I agree with Boskelli. Poultry MG/MS doesnt have a cell wall, it can only last 3 days in the environment if in fact it's a mycoplasma disease. However, it's not uncommon for birds to have two or more diseases at once, for example; MG and Coryza, MG and ILT. Course times would be longer, including contaminated coops, waterers, feeders etc...
It's best to cull, disinfect everything and wait a year before repopulating. 
Sick birds dont lay eggs, stress causes symptoms to reappear, antibiotics become useless over time not to mention withdrawal times for eggs and slaughter for meat. Birds that arnt sick are carriers of whatever respiratory disease(s) they have, and will spread it to newly acquired birds.


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## Maryellen

I just found this, apparently npip does test for this stuff

USDA - APHIS United States Department of Agriculture
Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
National Poultry Improvement Plan (NPIP)

Animal Health / Veterinary Accreditation / NVAP Reference Guide / Poultry

Veterinary Accreditation

Questions, Comments, or Technical Issues?
Preface
Introduction
Table of Contents
Control and Eradication
Poultry
National Poultry Improvement Plan (NPIP)
Avian Influenza (AI)
Exotic Newcastle disease (END)
Equine
Aquatic Animal
Animal Health Emergency Management
Cleaning and Disinfection
Disease Surveillance
Laboratory Submissions
Animal Movement
Animal Identification
Compliance and Regulations
Appendix

National Poultry Improvement Plan (NPIP)
Last Modified: Apr 11, 2017

The NPIP is a voluntary State-Federal cooperative testing and certification program for poultry breeding flocks, baby chicks, poults, hatching eggs, hatcheries, and dealers. It became operative in 1935 with a three-pronged focus on certifying breeding stock, bird performance, and the elimination of bacillary white diarrhea (caused by Salmonella pullorum). The objective of the NPIP is to provide a cooperative State-Federal program through which new technology can effectively be applied to the improvement of poultry and poultry products by establishing standards for the evaluation (testing) of poultry breeding stock, baby chicks, poults, and hatching eggs with respect to freedom from certain diseases.

The diseases covered by the NPIP are avian influenza (fowl plague) and those produced by S. pullorum (pullorum disease), S. gallinarum (fowl typhoid), S. enterica var. enteritidis, Mycoplasma gallisepticum (MG, chronic respiratory disease, and infectious sinusitis in turkeys), M. synoviae (MS, infectious synovitis), and M. meleagridis (MM, day-old airsacculitis). In addition, the NPIP has programs such as "U.S. Salmonella Monitored" and "U.S. Sanitation Monitored" that are intended to reduce the incidence of salmonella organisms in hatching eggs, chicks, and poults through effective and practical sanitation procedures at the breeder farm and in the hatchery.

Poultry is defined in the NPIP as domesticated fowl, including chickens, turkeys, ostriches, emus, rheas, cassowaries, waterfowl, and game birds (except doves and pigeons) that are bred primarily to produce eggs and meat. Three types of participants are involved in the NPIP: independent flocks, hatcheries, and dealers. The poultry products certified by the NPIP are hatching eggs, baby chicks, poults, and started pullets. The vast majority of U.S. States prohibit the entry of any poultry shipments except those designated pullorum- typhoid clean. Essentially, such bans mean that poultry moving interstate should participate in the "U.S. Pullorum-Typhoid Clean" program of the NPIP or be tested negative for pullorum-typhoid before leaving their home State. Fifteen States require that all shipments of turkeys they receive be MG clean. Essentially, that requirement means that turkeys moving interstate should participate in the "U.S. MG Clean" program of the NPIP or be tested free of MG before shipment.

Most U.S. trading partners importing poultry and products from the United States also require NPIP participation. Accredited veterinarians may be requested to inspect breeder flocks participating in the NPIP for compliance with the standards and to issue health certifications. Every spring, APHIS publishes a directory of participants handling egg-type and meat-type chickens and turkeys and a directory of participants handling waterfowl, exhibition poultry, game birds, and ratites. These directories list hatcheries, independent flocks, and dealers participating in the NPIP, the products that they handle, and the disease classifications that they participate in.

Other information about the program can be obtained from the:

NPIP, USDA-APHIS -VS
1506 Klondike Rd, Suite 300
Conyers, GA 30094

Information can also be obtained on the NPIP Web site:
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/animal_dis_spec/poultry/
USDA.gov | Policies & Links | Accessibility Statement | Privacy Policy | Non-Discrimination Statement | Information Quality | USA.gov | Whitehouse.gov
${loading}


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> I just found this, apparently npip does test for this stuff
> 
> USDA - APHIS United States Department of Agriculture
> Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
> National Poultry Improvement Plan (NPIP)
> 
> Animal Health / Veterinary Accreditation / NVAP Reference Guide / Poultry
> 
> Veterinary Accreditation
> 
> Questions, Comments, or Technical Issues?
> Preface
> Introduction
> Table of Contents
> Control and Eradication
> Poultry
> National Poultry Improvement Plan (NPIP)
> Avian Influenza (AI)
> Exotic Newcastle disease (END)
> Equine
> Aquatic Animal
> Animal Health Emergency Management
> Cleaning and Disinfection
> Disease Surveillance
> Laboratory Submissions
> Animal Movement
> Animal Identification
> Compliance and Regulations
> Appendix
> 
> National Poultry Improvement Plan (NPIP)
> Last Modified: Apr 11, 2017
> 
> The NPIP is a voluntary State-Federal cooperative testing and certification program for poultry breeding flocks, baby chicks, poults, hatching eggs, hatcheries, and dealers. It became operative in 1935 with a three-pronged focus on certifying breeding stock, bird performance, and the elimination of bacillary white diarrhea (caused by Salmonella pullorum). The objective of the NPIP is to provide a cooperative State-Federal program through which new technology can effectively be applied to the improvement of poultry and poultry products by establishing standards for the evaluation (testing) of poultry breeding stock, baby chicks, poults, and hatching eggs with respect to freedom from certain diseases.
> 
> The diseases covered by the NPIP are avian influenza (fowl plague) and those produced by S. pullorum (pullorum disease), S. gallinarum (fowl typhoid), S. enterica var. enteritidis, Mycoplasma gallisepticum (MG, chronic respiratory disease, and infectious sinusitis in turkeys), M. synoviae (MS, infectious synovitis), and M. meleagridis (MM, day-old airsacculitis). In addition, the NPIP has programs such as "U.S. Salmonella Monitored" and "U.S. Sanitation Monitored" that are intended to reduce the incidence of salmonella organisms in hatching eggs, chicks, and poults through effective and practical sanitation procedures at the breeder farm and in the hatchery.
> 
> Poultry is defined in the NPIP as domesticated fowl, including chickens, turkeys, ostriches, emus, rheas, cassowaries, waterfowl, and game birds (except doves and pigeons) that are bred primarily to produce eggs and meat. Three types of participants are involved in the NPIP: independent flocks, hatcheries, and dealers. The poultry products certified by the NPIP are hatching eggs, baby chicks, poults, and started pullets. The vast majority of U.S. States prohibit the entry of any poultry shipments except those designated pullorum- typhoid clean. Essentially, such bans mean that poultry moving interstate should participate in the "U.S. Pullorum-Typhoid Clean" program of the NPIP or be tested negative for pullorum-typhoid before leaving their home State. Fifteen States require that all shipments of turkeys they receive be MG clean. Essentially, that requirement means that turkeys moving interstate should participate in the "U.S. MG Clean" program of the NPIP or be tested free of MG before shipment.
> 
> Most U.S. trading partners importing poultry and products from the United States also require NPIP participation. Accredited veterinarians may be requested to inspect breeder flocks participating in the NPIP for compliance with the standards and to issue health certifications. Every spring, APHIS publishes a directory of participants handling egg-type and meat-type chickens and turkeys and a directory of participants handling waterfowl, exhibition poultry, game birds, and ratites. These directories list hatcheries, independent flocks, and dealers participating in the NPIP, the products that they handle, and the disease classifications that they participate in.
> 
> Other information about the program can be obtained from the:
> 
> NPIP, USDA-APHIS -VS
> 1506 Klondike Rd, Suite 300
> Conyers, GA 30094
> 
> Information can also be obtained on the NPIP Web site:
> http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/animal_dis_spec/poultry/
> USDA.gov | Policies & Links | Accessibility Statement | Privacy Policy | Non-Discrimination Statement | Information Quality | USA.gov | Whitehouse.gov
> ${loading}


I believe they will test for almost anything but the owner will have to pay for any tests other than those they sanction - such as AI and pullorum


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## Maryellen

You're probably right.


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## seminole wind

I believe they test for diseases that can be passed thru an egg and other ones . It's unclear to me what the reasoning is to test for some and not ohers? Why are those diseases picked above others? Vertically passed? Carriers?


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## Maryellen

I am not sure. I'm new to the npip and didn't ask alot of questions . I know the vets will test but it's costly. .
My friend never had a problem till she moved to the mountain, she said it's so damp even her bones feel it


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> I believe they test for diseases that can be passed thru an egg and other ones . It's unclear to me what the reasoning is to test for some and not ohers? Why are those diseases picked above others? Vertically passed? Carriers?


I believe it has to do with possible transmission to humans. Both AI and Salmonella pullorum could be a source of human illness or death.


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## Maryellen

Is it possible to carry it . One of my hens has small bubbles in the corner of her eye, she is a australorp and is sneezing. I put her on the porch in a cage and am.giving denagard. I was there oct 28.


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## Maryellen

Oh crap. I'm going to have to kill all my birds aren't i.


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## seminole wind

I would strongly think about that one. Before you do anything you should send a demised bird to an animal disease lab, not a vet . You could need confirmation of a lab before you go and kill all your chickens.


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> Oh crap. I'm going to have to kill all my birds aren't i.


Like Seminole said - pause and think. The suggestions of taking a bird for necropsy is excellent. I took mine to Cornell, $85.00/bird.
Wait and see..positive thoughts


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## Maryellen

None died. But one has small bubbles in her eye. I gotta call the vet and see if they can do a blood test to send out.


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## Maryellen

Waiting on chicken vet to call back with price of blood test.


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## seminole wind

If you want to price shop, Texas A&M does testing.


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## Maryellen

I need the vet to draw the blood I don't have syringes or know how


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## Maryellen

$40 to have test done and $51 for office visit


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## Maryellen

Tues at 630 we go in for the blood test.


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## Lucy’s Coop

My Sweet Omeletta has clear bubbles in her Sweet Eyes can you plz help? I put her in isolation and she so scared & lonely.


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## dawg53

Welcome to the forum Lucy's Coop. 
It's possible your hen may have a respiratory disease. However you need to consider environmental issues before assuming it's a respiratory disease.
For example; ensure there is proper ventilation inside the coop. Ammonia fumes from soiled bedding can cause the symptoms you're seeing. Pollen, excessive dander, pesticides, and dust or debris can cause similar symptoms.
Respiratory diseases also cause wheezing, sneezing, gurgling, rales, head shaking and are very contageous to other birds. They can even be carried on your person and spread to other chickens.
Have you seen any of the symptoms I've mentioned?


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## Maryellen

Vet appt tues night for bloodwork.


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## Lucy’s Coop

Maryellen said:


> Oh crap. I'm going to have to kill all my birds aren't i.


WHAT ?!? Because of Her bubbly Eyes ?!?


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## Lucy’s Coop

dawg53 said:


> Welcome to the forum Lucy's Coop.
> It's possible your hen may have a respiratory disease. However you need to consider environmental issues before assuming it's a respiratory disease.
> For example; ensure there is proper ventilation inside the coop. Ammonia fumes from soiled bedding can cause the symptoms you're seeing. Pollen, excessive dander, pesticides, and dust or debris can cause similar symptoms.
> Respiratory diseases also cause wheezing, sneezing, gurgling, rales, head shaking and are very contageous to other birds. They can even be carried on your person and spread to other chickens.
> Have you seen any of the symptoms I've mentioned?


Thank You so much for replying,no other symptoms at all. I just went out & checked on her and did some things suggested (smell her face/head) other than totally scared to death by being alone in the Bird ER she seems ok. I've read sooo much my head hurts & im terrified. People suggest.22,Cull her,she's highly contagious. This happened overnight, I just put ALL new straw in first of the week. I use the DLM. Half the coop is at least 16ft straw & the other half is dirt floor,half enclosed & half open with the entire coop roofed. It got extremely cold last night??? 
Any meds you suggest?


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## Lucy’s Coop

Pic of Omeletta’s bubbly eye,pic doesn’t show very well,it’s wet. It doesn’t have a foul odor.


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## dawg53

On her comb and just forward of her eye in the pic you provided, are those scabs from where she mightve been pecked? If she was pecked close to the eye, it could cause wet/bubbly eye, but not pecked hard enough to cause swelling.
My second thought would be possible fowl pox. Are the scabs raised, looking like warts? Any on her wattles?
My final question; how is her other eye? Is it wet or bubbly also? If not, it's not a respiratory disease.
Since there is no foul odor around her head area, that eliminates coryza...a terrible respiratory disease.


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## Maryellen

So one bubbly eye is good? As long as both aren't bubbly it's not a bad issue?


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## boskelli1571

Di


Maryellen said:


> So one bubbly eye is good? As long as both aren't bubbly it's not a bad issue?


disease such as MG is systemic so you would see similar problems to both eyes/nares etc. If it's just one eye it may be something else entirely.
I had a hen with MG and she would get bubbly eyes - not necessarily at the same time, but it was both eyes.


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## dawg53

One bubbly eye doesnt mean all is good.
Think of it this way ME; when you have a bad cold, feeling like crap, and your sinus' are acting up, both nostrils run as do watery eyes...evidence of a cold or flu, or maybe an allergy.
One bubbly eye could possibly mean the onset of a respiratory issue (along with other symptoms and none were seen in Lucy's hen) or maybe debris in the eye, fowl pox near the eye and was scratched causing weeping and bubbles. Perhaps the hen is lowest in the pecking order and was pecked near or around the eye as well as the comb.
ME; you're doing the right thing by having bloodwork drawn and tested for mycoplasma.
Good luck.


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## Maryellen

Ok good to know. I have one hen with a few bubbles in only one eye. Raspy breath. I don't know if she will make it. I gave denagard in her water and she is drinking and eating but having a hard time breathing. She goes to the vet Tuesday for blood to be sent out to see if it's mg.


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## dawg53

Denagard treats mycoplasma diseases. If she has been drinking the treated water for at least a week, you shouldve seen some improvement by now.
Or perhaps it IS working and has prevented other more severe respiratory symptoms.
This why bloodwork testing is important.


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## Maryellen

Yea I know one bubbly isn't good lol, but figure one is better then both lol... my coop was very dusty with the sand and pdz, so I added large shavings to get rid of the dust, as one hen had sand in her eye that I rinsed out. . The sick hen smells sick, it's not a sweet smell but a sick smell, hard to explain the smell , just a sick smell if I smell her near her body and head, so probably coryza I'm thinking. She is on my porch away from the others (the porch is now plasticized for winter ).
If she doesn't survive I will have a necropsy done, as I need to know what I'm dealing with. I can't breed the bredas for sale until I know what I'm up against).
Weird part is the fowl pox hen is doing great and my rir langshan roo she us with are both doing good, the one scab is getting ready to fall off. They are in the infirmary coop.


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## Lucy’s Coop

Maryellen said:


> So one bubbly eye is good? As long as both aren't bubbly it's not a bad issue?


They are bad this morning! And she's not eating or even moving from same spot.


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## seminole wind

Hi Lucy. Thanks for posting pics-always helps. It's good to know MEs posts are important to someone else. Their eyes look terrible. Keep posting.


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## Maryellen

Lucy if she isn't eating or drinking you need to isolate her and feed/give water and meds or she will die of starvation.


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## Maryellen

And she died.. I just went to check on her and she is gone. So now change of plans. Necropsy instead. Tomorrow the vet opens at 8am.ill be calling them to bring her in for a necropsy .

My friends hens are still sick too, she just had one silkie die the other morning who was sneezing and raspy . her other ones are all raspy still. One more silkie isn't doing good ,worse then the others. We are both really confused as to what is going on


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## dawg53

Maryellen said:


> And she died.. I just went to check on her and she is gone. So now change of plans. Necropsy instead. Tomorrow the vet opens at 8am.ill be calling them to bring her in for a necropsy .
> 
> My friends hens are still sick too, she just had one silkie die the other morning who was sneezing and raspy . her other ones are all raspy still. One more silkie isn't doing good ,worse then the others. We are both really confused as to what is going on


I'm sorry for your loss. Necropsy is best, do not freeze her. You can refridgerate her.
Once the necropsy results come in, please let us know the results.
BTW; how old was she?


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## Maryellen

My frig is full. Can I leave her on the porch? She was 6 months old.


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## Maryellen

Can I put her in the veggie crisper drawer?


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## dawg53

Lucy's Coop: Purchase Tylan 50 injectable at your feed store. Use a syringe with needle to draw the tylan and give your hen 1/2cc orally twice a day for 5 days.


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## dawg53

Maryellen said:


> Can I put her in the veggie crisper drawer?


Yes, that should work.


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## Maryellen

Dawg I got her in the veggie crisper in the fridge


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## Maryellen

Dawg I have tylan 50, I'm going to give it to the other one


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## chickenqueen

ME,I'm sorry for your loss and the problems you are having.I hope no communicable diseases are the culprit.I keep expecting mass die-offs with all the chemtrails in our skies.Everyday,the whole sky looks like graph paper and "they" don't even try to hide the 4-5 planes leaving the trails anymore.Among other things, "they" spray lithium and aluminum nitrate in the sky.Both chemicals are toxic to living things.Now the government has given scientific names to the chemtrail clouds.How special...


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## Maryellen

The state will be here Monday to test my chickens. The vet said I have to have the state come out ,they won't take the dead hen for necropsy. I already spoke to the npip tester who was here and she is coming Monday . I am putting the one remaining sick hen on the porch and putting 4 healthy ones in the other dog crate for her to test. She is testing for mareks, mg, and doing fecal tests as well as they are $3. I am putting the other hen up here to who has the black spit on her wattle. The vets office ran a 2nd test on the cuckoo and it's NOT fowl.pox. the state thinks it could be mareks or mg. She said she doubts its,coryza, but will test anyway. She also said it could be ILF or something like that. Infectious bronchitis? ..


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## dawg53

ILT. I dont believe your birds have that disease. They would be slinging blood all over the place.
IB is a possibility. It goes through a flock quickly. Crack open an egg from a suspect bird and if it's watery, it's a good chance that it's IB.


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## seminole wind

I strongly doubt they have Mareks. Marèks usually starts with paralysis or wasting. It's internal tumors. I'm glad you have some vets involved and the npip people. At least you'll get to the bottom of this.

Marèks exposure can affect the immune system, but it's something I see with mine and when they are older.


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## Maryellen

2nd sick hen died. She had yellow poop on her back end, closed eyes no bubbles or crust. Wasn't eating but was drinking. I had her on the porch in the vari kennel for the state to test her monday. Wtf.
Dawg I'm getting NO eggs.
I dusted everyone with poultry dust for mites and bugs 2x this week just to make sure.


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## dawg53

It sounds like your birds are dropping like flies with short notice symptoms. There might be something else going on ME. Monday cant come soon enough for you and your birds (and us.)
Are there any other birds showing symptoms?


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## Maryellen

A breda pullet I bought in august died first yesterday. Today my 6 month old giant died. Both had raspy breathing and lethargic. They were drinking but not eating.. now the breda pullet who died yrsterday that i bought in august was 1 of 6 birds i bought. The 2 hebs in that group were sneezing on my way home witj them. The 4 youngsters were with them from the same person who is npip. I kept the 6 in quarantine and it took denagard to get the 2 adult gens to stop sneezing . The giant had yellowish runny poop on her butt feathers. The Breda pullet had a clean butt. . I'm beyond devastated. The cuckoo bredas 2nd test came back negative for fowl pox. The vet didn't ask the lab to test for anything else but fowl pox as the scabs looked like pox. The pullet that came up with the cuckoo now has a black scab on her wattle. The state told me to put any bird I want tested in the crates on my porch for monday. I'm putting both bredas in one crate that have the black scabs . I'm taking 1 giant that is sneezing in the other crate and will add 4 birds to her crate for the state to test. Fecals will be done too as the state charges $3 a fecal. I have the dead giant (who I think is an australorp in my fridge. The Breda hen that died the state said will be too old on Monday to get an accurate necropsy done as it will be in the fridge for 6 days by the time the state gets here. She said if it wasn't a holiday it would have been sent this week. Just my luck. 
None of my.other birds are showing anything. The only odd thing is there is nicely formed green poop from a few birds, and regular poop from others. Everyone is eating , foraging and drinking good. . No one but the Breda pullet with the black mark on her wattle is showing anything. 
I'm very upset. Not only are my birds getting I'll and some dying, but I spent a lit of money on the bredas that I bought. I was soo excited to get a breeding program started with them. Everything right now is on hold, and all my birds are now in limbo. .
Now yeah, it coukd be the wild sparrows that brought something in, but who knows. ....
Depending on the outcome will depend if all my birds live or die. That's reality. I'm not going to pretend everything will be all rainbows and unicorns. It's very possible it's something bad. I'm hoping for a good outcome, but I'm prepared if it won't be. 
I prided myself on my birds. Everyone who bought from me told their friends how friendly and beautiful my barnyard mixes were. Everyone who has bought from me come back every year for more birds. I have a woman from ny who is 2.5 hrs away who only buys from me . I hand raise every one and they are friendly, handleable, and beautiful. It's devastating. One of my customers I saw Wednesday was telling me he referred some friends to me for the spring. I didn't have the heart to tell him what was going on so I just said have them contact me in the spring. He bought from me last year some barnyard mixes I hatched out.


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## Maryellen

Dawg it's like they sneeze for a day, some get crusty eye some dont, then they get the raspy breathing. Stop eating , then die . Total time is 5 days from first sneeze to death. 4 were sick initially, then 2 recovered well and the other 2 died.


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## Maryellen

Now, my.olive egger was sick last year with that sinus thing that I had the vet do surgery on. It's possible that she opened up the flock to whatever is going on? Now the funny thing is I got her from the same person who I got my bredas from. And when I got her 2 years ago she was infested with mites. A week after I got her I spent $100 at the vet to treat the mites as she was very sick. I didn't realize it was the same woman until I bought my black breda from her and recognized her.


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## dawg53

When you initially got your birds from the breeder, did you worm them?
It is true that worms can weaken a birds immune system due to starvation, a slow death possibly made much worse with MG. I'm guessing at this point ME...at what's happening with your birds.
I know it's heartbreaking. I've had to cull birds for less reasons and it hurts.

A breeder who sells birds infested with mites isnt much of a breeder in my eyes...much like a puppy mill. I'm sorry you're going through this.


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## Maryellen

I dusted all of them with poultry dust, then sevin. I didn't deworm them though. I never saw worms. I only thought of mites etc. I did quarantine, and never saw worms in the poop.


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## Maryellen

The giants (that I think are really australorps) came from someone else, they were bright and healthy when I got them in april. I'm surprised they all got sick, but they are young too. 
Monday can't come fast enough. I'll be at work when the state comes, I can't take off. My.husband will be home though. All the birds will be on the porch in cages for the state to test. She is calling me sunday to let me know what she needs for me to do for monday for her.


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## chickenqueen

I'm so sorry you are going through this.I know you are devastated and I wish I could help.You and your flock are in my prayers.Remember,that which does not kill you will only make you stronger.Try to not let it destroy your ambitions but use this as a learning experience.Try to get something positive out of this.Maybe not today or tomorrow but in the future.Stay strong for the Bredas!!!


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## Maryellen

It's a learning experience for me. But I'll be ok no matter what the outcome, this helps me to be better and more knowledgeable for what I do next


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## Maryellen

Dawg I don't think she knew the olive egger had mites. I'm really not sure. When I purchased a rooster from her he crowed nonstop so I returned him a month later, she said he was covered in mites when she got him back. Blamed me for the mites. I dusted him when I got him and the 2 hens so I honestly don't know if he came with them or got them here. I always dust mine and give them dust areas that have wood ash and Sevin dust and poultry dust mixed in the dirt. So I don't know what happened . The olive egger had them when I got her as a week later I took her to the vet . The other birds I had didn't have any, I dusted everything after the vets office. . I am very diligent regarding mites after that 2 years ago.


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## seminole wind

I am so sorry. I know how it is to Feel devastated. 
NPIP- people tend to think that means healthy. They only test for 2-3 things, one of which is AI, and Puĺlorem (?). It does not mean that the birds are free from highly contagious deadly illnesses. I got Mareks from a hen from a breeder. 
You've done everything right for the health and well-being of your chickens. You are doing everything you can to contain and get testing for whatever it may be. It does sound serious and I'm sorry. I remember hatching 10 perfect little polish chicks that ended up with paralysis one by one and I realized it was Mareks. 

I don't think your birds are dying from worms or parasites, but can weaken a bird. I hope you get to the bottom of this quickly.


----------



## Lucy’s Coop

dawg53 said:


> Lucy's Coop: Purchase Tylan 50 injectable at your feed store. Use a syringe with needle to draw the tylan and give your hen 1/2cc orally twice a day for 5 days.


She had to be "layed to rest" Thank goodness I seen her that morning & isolated her! After I began RX via syringe down her poor throat, she acted as if it was choaking her, she blew fluids everywhere shaking her head & second day was making gurgling sound in her throat, her eyes Terribly Matted. I DO NOT KNOW HOW SHE LIVED AS LONG AS SHE DID WITHOUT FOOD & WATER! Again Praise The Lord my other 12 girls & Roo are fine. CRD ???? No ideal...... but couldn't take any chances & she was suffering if not starving to death.


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## Wilbur's Mom

ME any news yet?


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## Maryellen

Wilbur's mom 8 of mine tested positive for mareks and MG


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## Wilbur's Mom

Oh no!! I am so sorry you are dealing with all this


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> Wilbur's mom 8 of mine tested positive for mareks and MG


sorry to hear that


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## Maryellen

It's ok. I learned a valuable lesson.


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## dawg53

ME. How are you dealing with the rest of your flock?


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## Maryellen

Right now Dawg they are all still alive. The results hit.hard. I'm still having a hard time dealing with it. I've been really depressed. I'm slowly refunding everyone who bought birds from me. I'm still waiting for the bill from the state too. So far a few folks have told me their birds they got from me tested negative ,which is good. 
I'm honestly not doing anything till after the holidays regarding culling or not, I need to just get thru the holidays then deal with what I'm going to do with them


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## Maryellen

So I've decided to keep all my chickens and let them live their life out. I won't and can't sell anymore. But oh well. They all older except for a handful. 
Everyone looks good , a few are molting. They will live out their lives accordingly. Will I hatch my.own ? I am not sure. I might do a hatch in spring to see what happens. I've spoken to a few people who do denagard for maintenance and hatch and keep the chicks and have no deaths. I spoke to one who breeds for resistance for mareks. I've spoken to another state person as well who said he is pretty positive that most backyard flocks probably have MG or even mareks but don't know it


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## seminole wind

Hi. Sounds like you have a plan now, and past the shock. 

If chicks were hatched by a flock that had Marek's, most would end up dead. I had lost 13 chicks that way. One was the whole hatch of 10, the three others were oops chicks .
The older a bird gets, the more general resistance they have including not specific to Marek's but enough to halt the tumors. So I don't believe most flocks have Marek's. Most flocks get Marek's by adding a chicken that has it. A closed flock is the only way not to have it-99.9%.
The older chickens are still prone to immunosuppression secondary to the virus, meaning that the virus grabs hold of the immune system affecting the antibodies against common things chickens have like cocci, E.coli, clostridium, etc. I have followed this with my own flock for about 6-7 years now by lab results and my use of antibiotics. Now I treat for cocci twice a year as well.

Most of these people who "breed for resistance" do not understand how resistance is created. Some seem to believe that for 112 years no one could breed for resistance including scientists and now someone thinks they can? 
I also remember when st. john's wort was "the cure". When it failed, people blamed themselves for not following the directions carefully.

Resistance is attained by exposure causing the body to build antibodies specific to the disease, . Or an older bird that has a nice mature general immune system. If a chick receives a Marek's vaccine, it has now been exposed to Marek's in a safe way and can now build Marek's specific antibodies (resistance). Or a chick can be exposed to real Marek's virus and not have enough antibodies to fight it at their age, and die.

I had a chick here that was exposed to Marek's from 3-6 weeks and given to a horse stable. At 6 months came back to me and lived for 4 years and died from possible immune suppression. So I think a lot of it has to do with the concentration of virus a chick is exposed to. Basically, it gives a bird enough time to build enough antibodies to give the bird resistance.

There are many diseases that humans need that early exposure (immunization) to grow enough antibodies to be "resistant". Measles, mumps , and rubella, tetanus , flu, not to mention equine encephalitis, parvo, rabies, ...........

Is there anyone that can explain "breeding for resistance" and how that method works?

Vaccinate and quarantine all chicks for at least 3 weeks to attain resistance.


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## Maryellen

Yeah I had to step back and decide what to do. Since I see some people keep their flocks I weighed the good vs bad. I still find it odd, as all the chicks I hatched here didn't die. Every one lived in the coops until sold except 4 which left from the living room. None died. No one can figure out why no chicks died here, I'm going to keep doing what I did before -hatch for myself . I won't sell to anyone. .


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> Hi. Sounds like you have a plan now, and past the shock.
> 
> If chicks were hatched by a flock that had Marek's, most would end up dead. I had lost 13 chicks that way. One was the whole hatch of 10, the three others were oops chicks .
> The older a bird gets, the more general resistance they have including not specific to Marek's but enough to halt the tumors. So I don't believe most flocks have Marek's. Most flocks get Marek's by adding a chicken that has it. A closed flock is the only way not to have it-99.9%.
> The older chickens are still prone to immunosuppression secondary to the virus, meaning that the virus grabs hold of the immune system affecting the antibodies against common things chickens have like cocci, E.coli, clostridium, etc. I have followed this with my own flock for about 6-7 years now by lab results and my use of antibiotics. Now I treat for cocci twice a year as well.
> 
> Most of these people who "breed for resistance" do not understand how resistance is created. Some seem to believe that for 112 years no one could breed for resistance including scientists and now someone thinks they can?
> I also remember when st. john's wort was "the cure". When it failed, people blamed themselves for not following the directions carefully.
> 
> Resistance is attained by exposure causing the body to build antibodies specific to the disease, . Or an older bird that has a nice mature general immune system. If a chick receives a Marek's vaccine, it has now been exposed to Marek's in a safe way and can now build Marek's specific antibodies (resistance). Or a chick can be exposed to real Marek's virus and not have enough antibodies to fight it at their age, and die.
> 
> I had a chick here that was exposed to Marek's from 3-6 weeks and given to a horse stable. At 6 months came back to me and lived for 4 years and died from possible immune suppression. So I think a lot of it has to do with the concentration of virus a chick is exposed to. Basically, it gives a bird enough time to build enough antibodies to give the bird resistance.
> 
> There are many diseases that humans need that early exposure (immunization) to grow enough antibodies to be "resistant". Measles, mumps , and rubella, tetanus , flu, not to mention equine encephalitis, parvo, rabies, ...........
> 
> Is there anyone that can explain "breeding for resistance" and how that method works?
> 
> Vaccinate and quarantine all chicks for at least 3 weeks to attain resistance.


I found a couple of articles on breeding for resistance - one is specific to MD. It gets a bit technical in the middle, but otherwise a good read.
www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03079458108418468 
www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/3750/breeding-resistant-chickens-for-improved-food-safety
hope this helps, Sue


----------



## seminole wind

Maryellen, the same thing happened to me in the beginning. I had several hatches that were unaffected for no reason I can think of. Maybe just a lack of concentration of virus at the time. In fact, 4 silkie chicks hatched from the hen that was the carrier and they all lived and I don't know why. The roo did die with all the classic symptoms and I didn't know it was Marek's at the time.


----------



## seminole wind

boskelli1571 said:


> I found a couple of articles on breeding for resistance - one is specific to MD. It gets a bit technical in the middle, but otherwise a good read.
> www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03079458108418468
> www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/3750/breeding-resistant-chickens-for-improved-food-safety
> hope this helps, Sue


Thanks. Seems that the first article "tandforline" is from research done in the seventies. That's about 40 years old already. And what were the results 40 years later?

That's one of the problems I find with literature on Marek's. A lot of it is really old, and the testing was not as advanced as it is today. There's too many variables. And that long ago, PCR or testing blood did not exist. Back then it was based on tumors seen.

The poultrysite article seems to be more current and brings up another important factor: cytokines and chemokines which are the chemicals that signal the immune system to pump out antibodies that are general and not Marek's specific, but do help a chicken gain resistance.

It shows that some chickens do have a more robust immune system by measuring the amount of those 2 chemicals. It shows that Marek's exposure is so much more than just tumors. Marek's exposure affects the immune system long term. I think it's the B cells that spit out antibodies. The virus takes hold of those B cells and has them spitting out virus instead. The chicken ends up with immune suppression and usually dies of some ailment secondary to Marek's exposure or lives due to a robust immune system.

I have been living this. Its more than whether they get tumors or not. My birds all have exposure and have ended up dying from some bacteria or disease that they should have been resistant to; coccidiosis, e. coli, clostridium. Chickens carry these in small amounts. If the immune system is suppressed, these things multiply.

I have followed this with necropsies. And I am quick to treat for any and everything if one of my birds is "off". Cocci is always the first one I treat. Cocci can affect a chicken at any age.

Breeding for resistance is a good idea, but there are too many variables yet that can't give us a consistent outcome. So best so far is to build resistance by exposure to a vaccine that contains a benign piece of virus.


----------



## Maryellen

I'm not going to breed for resistance. A breeder I spoke to said she did that. By the time I'm ready to move out of state I will have no chickens left, so I will start from scratch with a new coop and new chickens. The coos here will be burned


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> Thanks. Seems that the first article "tandforline" is from research done in the seventies. That's about 40 years old already. And what were the results 40 years later?
> 
> That's one of the problems I find with literature on Marek's. A lot of it is really old, and the testing was not as advanced as it is today. There's too many variables. And that long ago, PCR or testing blood did not exist. Back then it was based on tumors seen.
> 
> The poultrysite article seems to be more current and brings up another important factor: cytokines and chemokines which are the chemicals that signal the immune system to pump out antibodies that are general and not Marek's specific, but do help a chicken gain resistance.
> 
> It shows that some chickens do have a more robust immune system by measuring the amount of those 2 chemicals. It shows that Marek's exposure is so much more than just tumors. Marek's exposure affects the immune system long term. I think it's the B cells that spit out antibodies. The virus takes hold of those B cells and has them spitting out virus instead. The chicken ends up with immune suppression and usually dies of some ailment secondary to Marek's exposure or lives due to a robust immune system.
> 
> I have been living this. Its more than whether they get tumors or not. My birds all have exposure and have ended up dying from some bacteria or disease that they should have been resistant to; coccidiosis, e. coli, clostridium. Chickens carry these in small amounts. If the immune system is suppressed, these things multiply.
> 
> I have followed this with necropsies. And I am quick to treat for any and everything if one of my birds is "off". Cocci is always the first one I treat. Cocci can affect a chicken at any age.
> 
> Breeding for resistance is a good idea, but there are too many variables yet that can't give us a consistent outcome. So best so far is to build resistance by exposure to a vaccine that contains a benign piece of virus.


Everyone sort of snickers when you mention herpes - yet the herpes virus can be truly devastating to several animals - not just mankind.
I suspect that research funding is hard to find for MD. The industry consensus seems to be 'if it's sick - kill it'. Chickens are sadly looked upon as expendable and I believe the USDA and others would like nothing better than to be able to eliminate 'backyard chickens' since it would create further dependence on the system.
LL is very similar to MD but caused by a different virus and finding current research on that is also hard to find.
Anyhoo.....Merry Christmas


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## seminole wind

Sue, you are right about info on LL, very difficult to find literature on it. Let me check my big book (a university reference book) and see what is written there.

I think the whole Marek's testing/prevention thing is aimed at chickens that don't get to live long anyway. So very little is done for backyarders who have chickens that live longer than 18 months. But this is slowly changing with the amount of backyarders building.

I have a theory that more research has been done as Baby Boomers got to the age of importance. I wonder what % of Back yard owners were born between 1945-1964 ?
Their (85 million births) has been a push for many things developed in a period of 20 years; disposable diapers, jarred baby food, baby formula, The Pill, the creation of many drugs researched and manufactured...........

Sue have you followed any of your LL afflicted chickens with necropsies?


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> Sue, you are right about info on LL, very difficult to find literature on it. Let me check my big book (a university reference book) and see what is written there.
> 
> I think the whole Marek's testing/prevention thing is aimed at chickens that don't get to live long anyway. So very little is done for backyarders who have chickens that live longer than 18 months. But this is slowly changing with the amount of backyarders building.
> 
> I have a theory that more research has been done as Baby Boomers got to the age of importance. I wonder what % of Back yard owners were born between 1945-1964 ?
> Their (85 million births) has been a push for many things developed in a period of 20 years; disposable diapers, jarred baby food, baby formula, The Pill, the creation of many drugs researched and manufactured...........
> 
> Sue have you followed any of your LL afflicted chickens with necropsies?


The first chick that died - no, b/c chicks drop dead for no good reason, but the second two I took to Cornell for necropsy.
They said it was tumors t/o lungs and other organs but the age was wrong - 16 weeks and I contacted the breeder who was very informative about Mareks and LL. Apparently there is a test by PCR that differentiates between the 2 diseases, but this test is only available at UC Davis. So, I think that the Cornell staff were honest in their intentions, but mistaken.
From that point I only had 3 survivors left - Gomez succumbed to overwhelming sinus infection, I had to cull Lurch since he could no longer walk and I have one pullet left.
If she makes it to her 1 year anniversary, I will consider her 'clean' - fingers crossed.
She has shown no signs of problems so far.....
I'm getting more Bredas' in May but they will have a new coop and fresh ground, so we will see. Sylvester was concerned about Waltzs' Ark not vaccinating....guess I will find out whether that's good or bad soon enough.
I so wish we could get new stock into the country it would boost the gene pool tremendously.


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## seminole wind

Aside from the vaccine, I think the longer you keep unexposed chickens away from those exposed has a positive impact on them.


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## seminole wind

Does this post?


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## seminole wind

How about this?


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## Maryellen

Oooo thanks!!!


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## chickenqueen

Good job,Karen!!!


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## seminole wind

Maryellen was right. There's so much information here on this thread. I found past posts and replied and I guess that did it. I can't believe the whole thread just went poof! gone!


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## dawg53

This thread would serve well for newbies and many other chicken owners. Everything from worms, common respiratory diseases, lymphoid leukosis, marek's disease, quarantining, biosecurity and official necropsies...a wealth of information.


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## Maryellen

Im just glad karen got it working so i could see all the info.


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## seminole wind

Yea, seriously hated the idea of losing this info! 
Maryellen, are the illnesses slowing down for you?


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## Maryellen

No one else is sick . With the bitter cold i thought it would come back but so far no sneezing.


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## seminole wind

Maybe cold is good for killing nasty bugs.


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## Maryellen

Its 1 here . Super cold. I dont know how any bugs can survive lol. I cant even handle this cold. I cant wait to retire and move to Virginia


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## seminole wind

Virginia? Is that far enough south? To me, the real cold and ice on LI was getting to work and back, and keeping my horses fed, watered, and blanketed. It was just a lot at the time esp. with 12 hour shifts.


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## Maryellen

Bills aunt and cousins are alll in Virginia by the smoky mts/roanoke area. Its way better then here


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## seminole wind

I'll bet. Mountains, green, how big is Roanoke?


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## Maryellen

Im not sure. I havent been to virginia in 30 years . Last time i was there i was in richmond visiting friends.


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## Maryellen

Bill went during the summer to visit his aunt . Ill go with him this summer for a few days to scope the area out


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## dawg53

Virginia is a high tax state, albeit not as high as New Jersey. Why not northeast Tennessee, Bristol maybe? There's no state tax in Tennessee. Bristol to Roanoke on I-81 is about 2-1/2 hours drive.


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## Maryellen

Really dawg its that high? The houses we are looking at that taxes are dirt cheap. He wants to be close to his family, 2.5 hrs is to far if his head shuts down and he has to drive


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## dawg53

ME. Moving from a high tax state (NJ) to a lower tax state (Va) initially seems like a good deal if you've lived in high tax state most of your life.
The same happened to me when I moved from Virginia to Georgia. Taxes were real cheap when I moved to Georgia in 1979. Georgia had just eliminated state vehicle inspections which even made the move worthwhile and a bit cheaper on our budget.
Virginia on the other hand required state vehicle inspections every 6 months and I guarantee you they'd find something wrong at EVERY inspection, costing me money.
My understanding now is that Virginia requires only yearly vehicle inspections.

The point I'm making is this; yes, you'll be getting a good deal initially, but it's all revelant. Property taxes may be cheaper, but the state makes it up in other areas; such as personal property taxes in counties, towns, and cities, gas and oil taxes, not to mention state income taxes, taxes on groceries, medications etc...

After moving to Georgia and living there for 33 years, I moved to Florida 5 years ago. I kick myself in the butt for not moving to Florida initially. After all, I lived on the Georgia/Florida border all those 33 years...not like it wouldve been a major move. Oh, the money I couldve saved if I had just moved to Florida instead of Georgia!

Tennessee doesnt have a state tax, however they have a high sales tax. 
I would rather pay high sales taxes rather than putting the tax burden on property owners. That way even if an illegal alien was to walk in a convenience and buy a coke or something, the illegal alien would be paying the extra sales tax as well.
Unfortunately Virginia and Georgia like to put the tax burden on property owners and on vehicle owners.


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## Nm156

If I remember correctly , when I visited my sister in Tennessee there was a city, county and state sales tax on all goods including food.


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## dawg53

Nm156 said:


> If I remember correctly , when I visited my sister in Tennessee there was a city, county and state sales tax on all goods including food.


You're right. I'm pretty sure the Tennessee state sales tax is 7% but with surcharges it's bumped up to about 9.5%. There is no state income tax. 
In Virginia it's 6.5%. Cities can bump it up another 6.5%, counties 4%. This does not include state income tax taken from a paycheck/retirement paycheck.


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## Maryellen

Hmmmm something to consider for sure.thank you for this info


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## chickenqueen

Wow!!!Ohio isn't bad.No tax on food,feed(really!!!),property taxes are reasonable and NO vehicle inspections.The weather can be extreme but it usually doesn't last long.No mountains or oceanside property but we have lots of lakes,rivers and state parks where they allow hunting,fishing and boating.Ohio is a good place to live.


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## Maryellen

We need to be near his family for when he gets worse, so ohio is to far. Plus im tired of the cold .


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## seminole wind

In Florida the homes were much less expensive. Our taxes are much less expensive. I look at NY where I'm from and the houses have tripled in value since I moved. I could never afford to move back. In Florida the tourist trade pays for a lot, like roads, and that takes the burden off of our taxes. I find southern Indiana is very clean and the homes are very reasonable and taxes are too.


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## dawg53

I've been through Roanoke many years ago. It was beautiful back then and I'm sure it's pretty much the same now. It's very close to the mountains too.


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## dawg53

seminolewind said:


> In Florida the homes were much less expensive. Our taxes are much less expensive. I look at NY where I'm from and the houses have tripled in value since I moved. I could never afford to move back. In Florida the tourist trade pays for a lot, like roads, and that takes the burden off of our taxes. I find southern Indiana is very clean and the homes are very reasonable and taxes are too.


As far as expensive homes here in Florida, it depends where you're looking.
Homes are fairly cheap in Jacksonville/Duval county in general. But homes and property north and northwest of Jax in Nassau, Baker and Columbia counties (mostly rural counties with no large towns) are way too expensive. I dont get it.


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## seminole wind

We're rural down here, 40 miles from Tampa. The prices are great. You can still get a 2000sqft fairly new concrete block home with extras , maybe a pool for under $200k.


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## chickenqueen

I went spelunking in Virginia or maybe it was W Virginia,it was beautiful.Also went horseback riding in the mountains.But doesn't it get cold there,too?I didn't see a whole lot but what I saw was breathtaking and the people were much friendlier than in Ohio,I guess southern hospitality.I would go there again.ME,did you get hit with this last storm,too?


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## seminole wind

I was shocked to see that Louisville KY was hitting negative degrees! Now I really have to rethink a move. I don't know if I like the cold anymore. Jan 31, I'm flying there and I will see what it's like. Southern In. and Kentucky are very reasonable on pricing. IN. also has free college for the kids.


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## Maryellen

Cq we are getting hit now. Its really bad for a coastal storm 3 hours away (thats how far im from the ocean)


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## seminole wind

Any update on your chickens?


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## Maryellen

They are doing good, and are alive still ..i decided to let them live their lives out. No one is sneezing or sick


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## seminole wind

That's good . Death won't change anything. You can sell fertile eggs from chickens with Marèks. It doesn't transfer with an embryo. What about this respiratory thing? Does it pass with an egg? Does one carrier mean that they will all pass it along? Can chickens get a vaccine for it? Like if you got day old chicks, you can prevent the tumors (symptoms) with a vaccine. What about the respiratory thing?


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## dawg53

MG isnt like mareks's. MG does transfer to the embryo in an egg, chicks are infected if they are lucky to survive. Eggs cannot be sold for hatching. Birds that dont appear sick are carriers for life and will spread the disease to other birds.
There are different vaccines for MG, but cannot be used on an infected flock nor carrier birds.
They must be used on a "clean" flock.
ME must maintain a closed flock; none in, none out.


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## Maryellen

Yep. No hatching eggs or chicks can be sold
I can sell eating eggs though.


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## chickenqueen

ME,I'm sorry.You worked hard and tried to do it right.Maybe it was for the best,just not sure how at this time.Everything happens for a reason.The worst/best thing happened to me.At the time,it was catastrophic(hubby left me for another woman and I found out 10 yrs of my life was a big,fat lie and I had to leave his house I just spent almost $40,000 remodeling and I had to leave with nothing).It brought me here to the country where I got a fresh start,I met Dale,got chickens, and I am so much happier.It was the worst but best thing that could happen.It just took a minute to see the silver lining.Selling to strangers is risky business these days.People set things up to rob you or do harm.What if your guardian angel prevented this from happening to you by stopping your breeding plans?You'll never really know but......


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## Maryellen

I know CQ. Its for a good reason i hope lol. Im not pissed anymore. Im going to just keep doing what ive been for myself.


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## Maryellen

If i had known i would have kept all my easter eggers and had pretty color eggs to sell


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## seminole wind

ME, I went thru all that, watching my chickens die, sometimes thinking I should have buried them in rows so I had more room. I never had any aspirations except to have happy chickens.


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## Maryellen

I go back and forth with euthing them vs not. But i always choose to leave them be. The funny thing is i dont know how long ive had this stuff, or if really do. Or if the lab messed up as the state told me they mixed up the results on 3 hens, so who knows. Birds that are vaccinated against mareks test positive for it. All the birds that tested positive were supposedly vaccinated i was told since the breeder showed her birds. So there is that. Since her birds all tested positive for mareks was it due to the vaccine.... 

For the mg. Who knows. Everyone i know has their birds sneezing etc. All i hear is how birds are sneezing, clear snot , etc, people i didnt sell birds to, people who were complaining about it since the cold hit. 
All i know is i regret bringing home the ones that were sneezing while i was driving home that day. Hindsight is 20 20 i guess. Those tested positive for the mg with the other 4 i got


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## Maryellen

It does suck though. A friend of mine is hatching and selling naked necks, we got into the selling bug at the same time, we were going to trade eggs too
Its sad seeing the ones who got into it like i did go forward, while my idea crashed and burned 
I was looking forward to breeding the bredas to keep stock and try to get to the standard, and have some extra cash since my husband is disabled and cant work. Now i just watch all my friends expand their breeding programs and i cant do crap.


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## Maryellen

Then i think,  well if the vaccinated birds tested positive for mareks i dont have mareks. Just mg. And if i cull everyone and clean out the coop and disinfect i can start again in spring


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## Maryellen

See too the main problem is i just cant kill them. I went out to do it and i am a wimp and couldnt. If i knew someone who would do it i would have it done


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## seminole wind

Vaccinated birds do test positive for Mareks, but due to pcr testing, which amplifies the samples polymerase chains, it gives them the ability to differentiate between which caused the exposure, virus or vaccine, even which vaccine caused it. The virus has genetic markers that they can find .

When anyone finds Marèks articles to read, please check the date on the articles. Some info is really old.


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## chickenqueen

What do you WANT to do,ME?Continue or start over?What would make YOU happier?What's best for the flock such as will they eventually get sick and die anyway or will they live long,happy, healthy, contagious lives and could the diseases spread from your flock via wild birds(it works both ways)?I'm sure you could find someone to cull them for you(maybe through your feed store?) but I know you've become attached to them.I can empathize with you about making "the decision" and not being able to go through with it.Been there,done that.No matter what you decide,we're here for you.


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## Maryellen

I am torn lol. Sometimes i want to start over and sometimes i dont. I would imagine the mg can be transferred to the birds and vice versa. .
I dont have the guts to do it myself the wimp i am. 
I dont want to make any rash decisions which is why im so conflicted. Plus the state told me all backyard flocks probably have mg, so then i think about that.


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## chickenqueen

You are not a wimp.You are not a wimp.You are not a wimp.I couldn't do it either.It's one thing to cull an injured/sick bird but another to cull a seemingly healthy flock.Death is final and can't be taken back.It's a tough decision.


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## seminole wind

You're not a wimp. You're taking a good look at what you would realistically gain if you killed them all ànd started over. Nothing. Your property is infected and you'd end up with the same condition in new birds. 

Is there a vaccine that protects against MG? Because I've gotten plenty of chicks from hatcheries with Marèks vaccine and the birds are mostly fine (90%).


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## Maryellen

Im not sure if there is a mg vaccine. There are a few strains


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## dawg53

There ARE MG vaccines that I mentioned in my last post. They cant be given to MG infected flocks nor carrier birds. 
The vaccine has to be given to a clean flock. 
As far as MG soil contamination goes, one week in the sun is all that is needed. Completely disinfect inside and outside the coop itself, roosts, nest boxes, waterers and feeders, burn all contaminated/soiled litter and you'll be able to repopulate in one week. 
However it's a different story with marek's. If I'm not mistaken, marek's virus is shed into soil for years.


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## Maryellen

Yeah dawg i now remember you saying that. 
The mareks , well im going to test a bunch that were not vaccinated and see what results are


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## seminole wind

ME, test the youngest ones. My older birds did not test positive for Marek's . I don't know why.


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## Maryellen

I wonder why. Ill test the young ones and see what goes


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## seminole wind

Labs are great. But even with my silkie roo, he had a cut on his ear, he's septic, and has a hx of possible fight. So the lab says died from sepsis r/t a cut on ear. However, they don't see the hx like me where he's absolutely fine one day and overnight he gets a large mutilated swollen face, and a slimed head. Then he goes to the lab 5 days later. I say he was unfortunate to survive being half swallowed and spit out by a snake. 

So all I got to say is keep it simple. Your birds had the snots. They did not have paralysis, did they? Or any other symptoms of Marek's ? So at a young age you would have had at least one and most likely more that demonstrate paralysis. All my paralysis victims were between the ages of 6 weeks and 8 months, 2 at a year old (no symptoms) and 2 at 18 months old (with paralysis) At 6 weeks i've also seen gasping between breathing normally prior to paralysis. 

So ME, you have one better than me. I lost alot of chickens before hearing one other person describe what was happening to her. Then I knew. At least you know what to look for. I did not. So i've been determined to help anyone out with Marek's symptoms WITHOUT scaring them or jumping to conclusions (like some on another forum). 

So go by your symptoms. You know what they are.


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## dawg53

Karen. You have a Silkie that was swallowed by a snake and spit it out that survived?
I've never heard of something like that, wow!
All of mine have been constricted first, swallowed and then spit out, all dead. An exception was when a 5' long yellow rat snake took on my adult Buff Orpington hen. The snake had pulled the hen off the roost and dragged her out into the pen. She somehow freed herself from the snake and was screaming bloody murder.
This incident occured at night when I was leaving for work on nightshift when I heard her screaming. I ran back through the garage and turned on the floodlights and saw the snake stalking the hen. I grabbed a shovel and killed the snake.
I bought the hen in the house and checked her out and she looked fine. She laid me an egg the next morning.

I just killed a black snake the other day. I had my chicks out in the grow out pen and I saw the snake out the corner of my eye. No doubt the snake was coming in for a snack.


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## Maryellen

None had paralysis, none now are sick. A few were sneezing a few weeks ago, but i have sand in my coop on the floor and they were all dustbathing in the coop, it was so dusty i had issues breathing too. Once i was able to let everyone free roam in the yard they dust bathed in the dirt and no more sneezing from the 4. (i had a few hawks hang around, so both coops were on lockdown ( . Other then that no one is showing any real sick signs. Which has me more confused.


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## seminole wind

You may be much better off waiting for a demise or a euthanoid. I myself was new at sending chickens to a lab so what I did was have a whole kit with box ready to go, and a form to be filled out. It made things not so complicated. 

Well it was hard for me to believe about the snake and yes he should have died, but he didn't. There is nothing else that can explain being fine at night, and waking up with a grossly swollen face and sticky slime on his head and upper neck. This was last year.


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## chickenqueen

It's not uncommon to be a carrier of a disease and not have symptoms or actually be ill.That's a big problem with contagious diseases.


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## seminole wind

dawg53 said:


> Karen. You have a Silkie that was swallowed by a snake and spit it out that survived?
> I've never heard of something like that, wow!
> All of mine have been constricted first, swallowed and then spit out, all dead. An exception was when a 5' long yellow rat snake took on my adult Buff Orpington hen. The snake had pulled the hen off the roost and dragged her out into the pen. She somehow freed herself from the snake and was screaming bloody murder.
> This incident occured at night when I was leaving for work on nightshift when I heard her screaming. I ran back through the garage and turned on the floodlights and saw the snake stalking the hen. I grabbed a shovel and killed the snake.
> I bought the hen in the house and checked her out and she looked fine. She laid me an egg the next morning.
> 
> I just killed a black snake the other day. I had my chicks out in the grow out pen and I saw the snake out the corner of my eye. No doubt the snake was coming in for a snack.


It's the only thing that fits the symptoms. He should have died.


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## Maryellen

Yeah i agree, but only those 2 deaths. Nothing else. And none of the chicks died . Ill wait and see.


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## David McPeak

seminole wind said:


> I believe they test for diseases that can be passed thru an egg and other ones . It's unclear to me what the reasoning is to test for some and not ohers? Why are those diseases picked above others? Vertically passed? Carriers?


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## David McPeak

I went to school years ago to get licensed to test birds for pullorum typhoid. They covered other diseases but that is the only we tested for back then. They covered CRD and said most flocks were already infected. They said the only way to get rid of it was to vaccinate day old birds. That has been has been 20 years ago. I have not seen any hatcheries offer vaccinations for CRD. Does anyone vaccinate for it or was it not effective.


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## Poultry Judge

Your state Ag or NPIP folks would know what they are currently vaccinating for.


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## robin416

Is there even a vaccine for CRD?


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## David McPeak

That was 20 years ago and I have not seen any of the hatcheries offer the vaccine.


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## Poultry Judge

robin416 said:


> Is there even a vaccine for CRD?


According to the interwebs there are some live and killed virus vax regimens being used commercially.


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## David McPeak

Jeffers does not carry the vaccine anymore


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## dawg53

Valleyvet has it:
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=ae64ad79-9b3f-49c8-8a0b-3675ea3eb0f8


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## David McPeak

1000 dose for $83 would not be bad if it had a 2 year date on expiration


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## robin416

I couldn't find if it was a killed virus. That's the only way I'd entertain using it.


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## David McPeak

I talked to the vet at the company that sells the vaccine, He said CRD is caused by a bacterial infection. He couldn't answer if they made a vaccine that didn't used live bacteria to make the vaccine.The vaccine was not in stock and he didn't know when they would get any .He was a livestock vet and couldn't really answer any questions I have. The vet from the poultry division of the okla ag dept is supposed to call me back and talk to me about it. I'm thinking that if it was really effective the hatcheries would give you an option to have your chicks vaccinated


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## robin416

The problem with live vaccines is that they can create carriers. Which would mean they could infect any birds coming in or if you sold any the new flock could be infected.

Great idea calling the state vet. They are a wonderful source of information.


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## dawg53

IMO strict biosecurity works better than any vaccines. If I had my birds vaccinated for MG, my luck would be that they get infected with IB, Coryza or ILT.
While I'm on the subject, birds with MG can be infected with another disease at the same time...one or more of the diseases I previously mentioned. Then the MG vaccine would be useless.


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## Poultry Judge

robin416 said:


> The problem with live vaccines is that they can create carriers. Which would mean they could infect any birds coming in or if you sold any the new flock could be infected.
> 
> Great idea calling the state vet. They are a wonderful source of information.


The state folks are usually very helpful.


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## David McPeak

The state vet didn't think much of the vaccine. He mentioned biosecurity. Take care of your day old birds first and using a footbath with disinfectant to clean your shoes. He said isolate your chickens no free ranging chickens ,He said your chickens can catch crd from wild animals. Short of getting rid of all of my birds and trying to find some new stock that hasn't been infected sounds like live with it best I can.


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## dawg53

MG stays in the environment for only 3 days. You can depopulate, disinfect everything with activated Oxine. Let everything dry out well and repopulate within 2 weeks. I highly recommend getting chicks from a reputable hatchery.
Stay away from Craigslist, farmer down the road, unreliable breeders, swap meets etc...


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## robin416

David, don't fret about it. Myself and others on this forum have raised birds for many years without any of them becoming infected with anything.

I didn't vaccinate any of them for anything. Many of my birds lived to be ten plus years old.


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## David McPeak

Thanks for the advice I raised chickens 20 years ago and was able to use antibiotics because I wasn't eating the eggs or chickens. Can you tell me where to get activated oxine I don 't know about it. I use a lot of chlorox on the inside of my barn between batches of fowl. The vet mentioned putting lime down on the ground. When I decided to quit raising quail I was just going to get a few hens for eggs I got carried away and did what you said not to and bought chickens off of craigslist. The last rooster I bought 3 weeks ago got sick and I had to put him down. I have ordered chicks from Cackle and have my brooder barn clean and disinfected am trying to decide if I ought to get rid of all of my adult hens and start all over.


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## Poultry Judge

David McPeak said:


> Thanks for the advice I raised chickens 20 years ago and was able to use antibiotics because I wasn't eating the eggs or chickens. Can you tell me where to get activated oxine I don 't know about it. I use a lot of chlorox on the inside of my barn between batches of fowl. The vet mentioned putting lime down on the ground. When I decided to quit raising quail I was just going to get a few hens for eggs I got carried away and did what you said not to and bought chickens off of craigslist. The last rooster I bought 3 weeks ago got sick and I had to put him down. I have ordered chicks from Cackle and have my brooder barn clean and disinfected am trying to decide if I ought to get rid of all of my adult hens and start all over.


I try to buy/sell/trade only amongst folks I know.


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## dawg53

David McPeak said:


> Thanks for the advice I raised chickens 20 years ago and was able to use antibiotics because I wasn't eating the eggs or chickens. Can you tell me where to get activated oxine I don 't know about it. I use a lot of chlorox on the inside of my barn between batches of fowl. The vet mentioned putting lime down on the ground. When I decided to quit raising quail I was just going to get a few hens for eggs I got carried away and did what you said not to and bought chickens off of craigslist. The last rooster I bought 3 weeks ago got sick and I had to put him down. I have ordered chicks from Cackle and have my brooder barn clean and disinfected am trying to decide if I ought to get rid of all of my adult hens and start all over.


https://www.revivalanimal.com/product/oxine-animal-health-ah?sku=15103-208
https://www.shagbarkbantams.com/the-many-uses-of-oxine-ah-animal-health/


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## David McPeak

dawg53 said:


> https://www.revivalanimal.com/product/oxine-animal-health-ah?sku=15103-208
> https://www.shagbarkbantams.com/the-many-uses-of-oxine-ah-animal-health/


thanks


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## robin416

David McPeak said:


> Thanks for the advice I raised chickens 20 years ago and was able to use antibiotics because I wasn't eating the eggs or chickens. Can you tell me where to get activated oxine I don 't know about it. I use a lot of chlorox on the inside of my barn between batches of fowl. The vet mentioned putting lime down on the ground. When I decided to quit raising quail I was just going to get a few hens for eggs I got carried away and did what you said not to and bought chickens off of craigslist. The last rooster I bought 3 weeks ago got sick and I had to put him down. I have ordered chicks from Cackle and have my brooder barn clean and disinfected am trying to decide if I ought to get rid of all of my adult hens and start all over.


Without knowing why your rooster was sick it's pretty hard to say you should start over from scratch. Birds do get sick and it doesn't have to be anything that turns chronic. They even get flu but most of the time don't show signs of it.


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## Poultry Judge

I don't know about cloroxing the barn, I've never done that. the recommendation about a bleach foot or boot tray, absolutely. Anyone outside of your immediate sphere needs to do that. All the breeders I know are serious about that.


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## David McPeak

Thanks Robin for putting things in prospective. I think the rooster had coryza I had a couple more of the same thing since this summer. None of the chickens had bubble eye but this is what crd does is weakens the immune system making the chickens more likely to catch a secondary disease. The vet told me if I have anymore get sick they will send it off to Arkansas and they will be able to tell me what caused the illness. Bleaching out my brooder barn after I get it cleaned out is something I have always done between each bunch of babies. I have heavy plastic on the floor and bleach really cleans it up. A guy told me onetime alot of the things we do for our chickens probably doesn't do anything but make us feel better. Thanks for all of the help Dave


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## robin416

It's just if we can't relax about their wellbeing then we're losing the benefit of having them. 

Totally with the vet about the necropsy. So few are willing to take that step because they believed all the rumors going around that their flock would be culled if anything was found.


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## dawg53

I agree with the necropsy. It's the only way to find out exactly what you're dealing with.
As far as Coryza goes, a dead giveaway for Coryza is a foul odor coming from the sick birds mouth/head area.


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