# went shopping for supplies



## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

My Tylan expired, my Sulfadimethoxine is down to the last teaspoon. So I went to Jeffers and got needles and syringes , Tylan injectable, and actually bought Sulfadimethoxine injectable!!!! Much easier giving an injection. And loaded up with a bottle of Valbazen.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> My Tylan expired, my Sulfadimethoxine is down to the last teaspoon. So I went to Jeffers and got needles and syringes , Tylan injectable, and actually bought Sulfadimethoxine injectable!!!! Much easier giving an injection. And loaded up with a bottle of Valbazen.


You drove to Dothan, Alabama or did you order it from their website?


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## chickenqueen (Jan 9, 2016)

Can you order antibiotic injectables and syringes and needles?I think those would be very handy to have on hand.Especially injectables that way you know the chicken got the full,correct dose delivered in one of the fastest ways to give and be absorbed by bird.Sem,are the 2 you bought the most common and/or broad spectrum?


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

dawg53 said:


> You drove to Dothan, Alabama or did you order it from their website?


If she drove to Dothan and didn't give me a holler, I'll come down there and kick her behind.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

chickenqueen said:


> Can you order antibiotic injectables and syringes and needles?I think those would be very handy to have on hand.Especially injectables that way you know the chicken got the full,correct dose delivered in one of the fastest ways to give and be absorbed by bird.Sem,are the 2 you bought the most common and/or broad spectrum?


I feel like I was lucky to get the Tylan because it's a good antibiotic. The sulfadimethoxine as well. Dosing would be so much easier.

You'll have to go to the website and see what they have. I got the needles and syringes there. I got 20 for $5. Michael knows where to get antibiotics w/o scripts. I didn't need a script for these.

Robin, I would never go thru Alabama without giving you a heads up!


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

You can get all the antibiotics you need here:
http://www.revivalanimal.com/Fish-and-Bird-Antibiotics.html


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Injectable sulfadimethoxine:
http://www.jefferspet.com/products/...84999fa2600f000002b9/533884999fa2600f000002bc

Cattle antibiotics:
http://www.jefferspet.com/categories/cattle/health-wellness/cattle-antibiotics-sulfas

Swine antibiotics:
http://www.jefferspet.com/categories/swine/health-wellness/antibiotics-sulfas-3

Poultry antibiotics:
http://www.jefferspet.com/categories/poultry/health-wellness/antibiotics-sulfas-4

Sheep antibiotics:
http://www.jefferspet.com/categories/sheep/health-wellness/antibiotics-sulfas-1

Injectable generic Baytril:
http://gamebirdsupplies.com/eng/index/item/11/4/enfloxil-10-100ml
http://gamebirdsupplies.com/eng/item/4/2-bottles-enroxil-10-250ml-free-shipping


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

1ml luer slip syringes:
http://www.shopmedvet.com/search?q=1ccls&go=

22 gauge needles
http://www.shopmedvet.com/search?q=needle+22&go=#/?_=1&page=1&sort.price=asc&filter.categoryhierarch y=Syringes%20and%20Needles%2FNipro%20Syringes%20%2 6%20Needles


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Tylan Powder:
http://www.abhoneyfarm.com/beekeepi...t-control-c-3_22/tylan-100g-bottle-p-131.html
http://www.amazon.com/Elanco-DC120-Soluble-Powder-100-Grams/dp/B00061MQIC
http://www.entirelypets.com/tylan100g.html


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

TSC carries Tylan 50 and 200 injectables.
http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/search/tylan%2050%20injectable


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## MikeA_15 (Feb 21, 2016)

I prefer to keep mostly injectable antibiotics since they work faster. I've had a number of them expire over time without having to use them, but it is better to have them if a problem arises. I like to use small gauge needles 23-25 gauge and 1/2 inch works well for intramuscular/subcutaneous injections. 1 cc syringes are adequate for most dosages. For water treatment meds I keep Sulfadimethoxine and Lincomycin. I keep a couple dewormers handy too but most of what I use are dietary supplements.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

You all should see my new jar of metronidazole, lol.


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## chickenqueen (Jan 9, 2016)

This is the only forum I'm a member of and I don't need another because I'm with the best.Everybody is great!Thanx for the websites for meds and supplies.If I were to fix up a medicine chest,what would you suggest I keep on hand-what meds and supplies.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

chickenqueen said:


> This is the only forum I'm a member of and I don't need another because I'm with the best.Everybody is great!Thanx for the websites for meds and supplies.If I were to fix up a medicine chest,what would you suggest I keep on hand-what meds and supplies.


Please Don't ask Kathy!!!!! You would need an extra shed not a medicine chest. Maybe a medicine truck. LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> Please Don't ask Kathy!!!!! You would need an extra shed not a medicine chest. Maybe a medicine truck. LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!


More like a large shed, honestly!!!


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

CQ, keep it simple. Dont go buying a bunch of stuff that you wont ever use. If you are practicing biosecurity, you really wont need any antibiotics. I'm more concerned about injuries and treating wounds. Think along those lines if possible; betadine, neosporin, q-tips, gauze, tweezers, scissors etc...you get the picture. Always have a wormer or two available and worm on a regular basis. Consider sevin or permethrin products for external parasites if the need arises.
Buying a lot of products "just in case" can be expensive and most of them will expire before they're even used. I learned THAT lesson long ago.
If for example an injury or wound becomes infected and requires an antibiotic and you're not sure which antibiotic is needed, simply ask here on this forum and we'll help as best as we can. In this instance you'd have time to purchase penicillin G procaine because you'd note prior that the infection wasnt healing/disappearing by any other treatments.
If it's a confirmed case of a respiratory disease, I always recommend culling infected birds.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Quite right, lol. Pretty well stocked with needles, syringes, catheters, all types of bandaging materials, betadine, tektrol, oxine and it's activator, vitamins, calcium, lactated ringers, many wormers, three anti fungals, and several antibiotics.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Add coccidiostats (Corid and Baycox), permethrin powder, Nolvasan (better than betadine for some things). Peroxide, but not for cleaning wounds, it's for inducing vomiting in cats or dogs if needed. Stypic powder, rubbing alcohol, steroid eye drops, antibiotic eye drops, eye ointment, mineral oil, OB lube.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

chickenqueen said:


> This is the only forum I'm a member of and I don't need another because I'm with the best.Everybody is great!Thanx for the websites for meds and supplies.If I were to fix up a medicine chest,what would you suggest I keep on hand-what meds and supplies.


Must have meds for me are:

Injectable enrofloxacin (Baytril) - Probably one of the better antibiotics that you can buy without a prescription. Can be given orally or by injection to any size/age bird. Treats many of the nastier bacteria.

Amprolium (Corid, Amprol, AmproMed, etc) - For coccidiosis

Fenbendazole (Safeguard) - for worms. Can be used on any size/age of bird, reptile or mammal.

Metronidazole (Flagyl, FishZole, AquaZole, Meditrich, etc.) - For treating blackhead and clostridium perfringens. Can also be used on any size/age bird

Enrofloxacin and metronidazole are banned for use in poultry, so that's something to think about.


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## MikeA_15 (Feb 21, 2016)

chickenqueen said:


> This is the only forum I'm a member of and I don't need another because I'm with the best.Everybody is great!Thanx for the websites for meds and supplies.If I were to fix up a medicine chest,what would you suggest I keep on hand-what meds and supplies.


The folks who answered your question mentioned some valuable meds to have on hand, but there may be some supplies needed also.

Any injectable requires intramuscular injection which is done to the right or left of the keel (breast bone). in the muscular area of the breast. Short 23-25 gauge needles work well for that. Keep a few things such as:
1 ml syringes (insulin syringes work well)
Cotton balls
Rubbing alcohol
Blue nitrile gloves ( they are more durable than latex)

For trimming nails, dog nail clippers work well (Miller's Forge is a durable brand).

For spurs, they sell small hack saws (referred to as spur saws on poultry sites), or you can use a cutting wheel on a Dremel. A file comes in handy just as with toe nails.

A large chalk stick or blood stop powder is necessary too.

Keeping vent areas clean is important, especially in hot weather since flies can cause a problem by laying eggs in a moist dirty vent. A good pair of trimming scissors, baby wipes, and a can of screw worm aerosol should be kept in case of emergency. Catron is one brand that sells around here.

Supplements/meds I keep on hand currently.

*Supplements*:
Dawes Stresseez Plus
Dawelite
http://dawesnutrition.com/Animal Health.html
Wheat germ oil with vitamins A,D,E
Kal nutritional yeast/buttermilk (when supplementing animal protein occasionally).

*Medications*:
Ampromed 20% soluble powder (same as Corid 20% powder)
Metronidazole 250 mg tablets
4 in 1 tabs (Aviomed)
Galliverm Super tabs (Fenbendazole and Albendazole for deworming)
Dr Bixler tabs (Mebendazole, Levamisole, & Niclosamide for deworming)
Enfloxil 10% injectable (same as Baytril)

Some of these medications (excluding dewormers) may expire if I don't use them, but they sure are good to have in case a problem arises. I hope that helps.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Forgot to mention scales...

Gram scale for weighing medications and eggs i'm incubating
Kitchen scale for weighing birds 20 grams to 5000 grams
Bathroom scale for weighing anything over 5000 grams


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## MikeA_15 (Feb 21, 2016)

And I forgot to mention the value of a head lamp. These are very important to me when I check birds over at night, and lock them in for the night. White or red lighting is often a plus since red lighting can keep nervous birds calm, both hands will be free, and you can still see what you are doing if treating a bird. Petzl lamps are the ones I prefer to use. They are light weight and comfortable.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

casportpony said:


> Forgot to mention scales...
> 
> Gram scale for weighing medications and eggs i'm incubating
> Kitchen scale for weighing birds 20 grams to 5000 grams
> Bathroom scale for weighing anything over 5000 grams


Dont forget the truck scale.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

dawg53 said:


> Dont forget the truck scale.


Lol. Too expensive, so I use the ones at the dump or the recycling center.


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## MikeA_15 (Feb 21, 2016)

dawg53 said:


> Dont forget the truck scale.


Or the truck itself,haha. You'll need one unless you want to pay extra for delivery of lumber, fencing, fire wood, sand for the pens, etc.


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## chickenqueen (Jan 9, 2016)

Thanx everybody!Already have first aid supplies,Valbazen,Permetherin(sp?) liquid,Headlamp from my spelunking days-quit because of rodents LOL.I need to know the best 1-2 antibiotics to keep on hand that can be given orally or injected.Last year had to give injections to my rooster for a massive ear infection and that was so easy,easier than trying to put medicine in his mouth like the wormer.I don't think I've had much disease here,never lost more than 1 bird at a time unless it was a dog attack.1 or 2 good broadspectrum antibiotics is what I need.If you could only have 2 what would you choose?


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

chickenqueen said:


> Thanx everybody!Already have first aid supplies,Valbazen,Permetherin(sp?) liquid,Headlamp from my spelunking days-quit because of rodents LOL.I need to know the best 1-2 antibiotics to keep on hand that can be given orally or injected.Last year had to give injections to my rooster for a massive ear infection and that was so easy,easier than trying to put medicine in his mouth like the wormer.I don't think I've had much disease here,never lost more than 1 bird at a time unless it was a dog attack.1 or 2 good broadspectrum antibiotics is what I need.If you could only have 2 what would you choose?


Enrofloxacin (Baytril) for sure. Sulfa drugs are good, but many bacteria are resistant to them.


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## MikeA_15 (Feb 21, 2016)

chickenqueen said:


> Thanx everybody!Already have first aid supplies,Valbazen,Permetherin(sp?) liquid,Headlamp from my spelunking days-quit because of rodents LOL.I need to know the best 1-2 antibiotics to keep on hand that can be given orally or injected.Last year had to give injections to my rooster for a massive ear infection and that was so easy,easier than trying to put medicine in his mouth like the wormer.I don't think I've had much disease here,never lost more than 1 bird at a time unless it was a dog attack.1 or 2 good broadspectrum antibiotics is what I need.If you could only have 2 what would you choose?


One of the best antibiotics to acquire is Amikacin and is not easy to possess but through a Veterinarian:
http://vetsfarma.com/poultry2.html

Lincomycin is related but is pretty effective when it comes to bacterial infections in the gut. Sold under the brand Linxmed-SP, it is a water dispersible:
http://www.qcsupply.com/540346-lincomycin-soluble-powder-40-gm.html

For respiratory, I'd recommend Denagard since there has been no resistance shown by microorganisms it is effective against:
http://www.qcsupply.com/denagard-liquid-concentrate-novartis.html


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Tylan 50 injectable, penicillin/amoxicillin, denagard, baytril. These are the best of the best for effectiveness in the antibiotic pecking order.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

MikeA_15 said:


> One of the best antibiotics to acquire is Amikacin and is not easy to possess but through a Veterinarian:
> http://vetsfarma.com/poultry2.html
> 
> Lincomycin is related but is pretty effective when it comes to bacterial infections in the gut. Sold under the brand Linxmed-SP, it is a water dispersible:
> ...


Wish I could get some Amikacin or Zactran, but both are very expensive, though should will work when Baytril won't.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

dawg53 said:


> Tylan 50 injectable, penicillin/amoxicillin, denagard, baytril. These are the best of the best for effectiveness in the antibiotic pecking order.


The Tylan is something one can get at most feed stores, so is procaine penicillin, so maybe no need to have those sitting on a shelf collecting dust?

Denagard is supposed to be mixed in water, so might not be a good choice for birds that aren't drinking, or birds with slow crops.

Baytril (enrofloxacin) can be given orally or by injection, so no need to worry about them drinking enough water or slow crops.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylosin
Spectrum of activity[edit]
Tylosin has a wide spectrum of activity against Gram-positive bacteria including Staphylococcus, Streptococcus, Corynebacterium, and Erysipelothrix. It has a much narrower Gram-negative spectrum of activity, but has been shown to be active against Campylobacter coli, and certain spirochaetes.[4] It has also been shown to be extremely active against Mycoplasma species isolated from both mammalian and avian hosts


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Interesting article:
http://www.octagon-services.co.uk/articles/mycoplasma_turkeys.htm


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Of course I like this table:


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

More antibiotic stuff from a friend of mine:

























A different bird:









This was from a duckling necropsy:


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

What that means is that anything with an R or resistant won't work. I or intermediate might, and S or susceptible should.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I like those charts. I think if you make an emergency kit, one should pick out an anticoccidial and some general cover antibiotic. Most times, if bacterial, it's a bacteria that they normally carry that's gotten out of control. Like E.coli, staph, etc. Most times viruses are caught by a flock from a new chicken. I am saying frequently or most common, not definitely to any of this. 

What is sometimes acting like cocci it can really be clostridium in the small intestine. That's harder to treat, and harder to diagnose in the back yard, so one may want to think about something that covers that.

I look at most things this way. If a chicken will die without treatment, you might as well hit them with everything you've got. An anticoccidial, and an antibiotic that covers most common bacteria, as above. if not eating or drinking, Kathy recommends Kaytee hand feeding powder and water. You can also buy these rubber urine catheters or catheters and hook them to a large syringe and tube feed which is very easy. I will do that if they are not eating or drinking and need their meds and some nutrition. In a pinch I've used Ensure. 

Then there's some cheap stuff like gauze, rolled gauze, medical tape, betadine, antibiotic cream, Epsom salts if needed (I use Epsom salts in a get so they can have it on overnight). I also have these small surgical blades. But a shaving blade works too. and Betadine. 

That's actually a short list. Some of it can be people stuff in a pinch.


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## MikeA_15 (Feb 21, 2016)

casportpony said:


> Wish I could get some Amikacin or Zactran, but both are very expensive, though should will work when Baytril won't.


It can be found with 30 ml and 100 ml. If a vet has a good relationship with you, it would not hurt to ask to purchase. There are some very durable strains of E. coli and Streptococcus that Enrofloxacin (Baytril), Amoxicillin have no effect upon.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

We need a sticky for just the drug charts and lock the thread so that no posts clutter it up. Make a suggestion if there are questions to start a separate thread.

A statement should be made that none of these should be given without a diagnosis of the problem. Too many toss out things without having a clue just making things worse.


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## MikeA_15 (Feb 21, 2016)

Well, like I've done, if my treatment is not successful, I send a culture to the lab to find out how to resolve the problem.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

robin416 said:


> We need a sticky for just the drug charts and lock the thread so that no posts clutter it up. Make a suggestion if there are questions to start a separate thread.
> 
> A statement should be made that none of these should be given without a diagnosis of the problem. Too many toss out things without having a clue just making things worse.


I think it will be a difficult topic to cover. In addition to having a proper diagnosis, most of the medications being discussed require proper dosing, which means knowing how much and animal weighs, and knowing *exactly* what medication will be used. Baytril is a good example. Baytril comes as many forms, so you can't say just give it "x".

Baytril comes as 2.27%, 2.5%, 5%, and 10%. To the best of my knowledge, the most one would give would be 15 mg/kg twice a day, but most vets don't prescribe that amount. More common is 10 mg/kg twice a day.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Some of you might find this interesting:
http://www.chickenforum.com/f12/how-would-you-treat-duck-10668/#post119750


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Unless you take your sick chicken to the vet, a doctor, all other information from anyone anywhere about diagnosis is a guess, sometimes a good guess. There are also many people who have had experiences with illnesses and can pass along these stories. Everyone exchanges stories here. 

People need to understand, and probably do that chicken forums and members give suggestions, not treatments , not diagnoses. 

If doses are given on medications, this is not a professional veterinary dose. Unless backed up by valid literature . 

Just know that suggested doses and medications are at the user's expense and no one elses. 

I do like med doses being stickied. I know I $uck at math , and it's nice that someone else does the work!


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

seminolewind said:


> I do like med doses being stickied. I know I $uck at math , and it's nice that someone else does the work!


Me too. I could do algebra like nobody's business but all that conversion math drives me nuts.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

I use Georgia math; 1+1=11


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> Unless you take your sick chicken to the vet, a doctor, all other information from anyone anywhere about diagnosis is a guess, sometimes a good guess. There are also many people who have had experiences with illnesses and can pass along these stories. Everyone exchanges stories here.
> 
> People need to understand, and probably do that chicken forums and members give suggestions, not treatments , not diagnoses.
> 
> ...


How do you avoid putting incorrect doses in the sticky when stuff like Duramycin 10 and Oxytetracyline have incorrect doses on the mfg website?

What about amprolium? The mfg and the FDA say to use it one one, but hardly anyone ever recommends that.

Procaine penicillin is another... Veterinary literature says one amount, but most people say to use a lesser amount. Same with Tylan.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

robin416 said:


> Me too. I could do algebra like nobody's business but all that conversion math drives me nuts.


Used to drive me nuts, but I got tired of asking DH to calculate doses for me.

It's a simple formula...

Weight of bird in pounds, divide by 2.2, times the number of mg per kg you want to give, divide by the number of mg per ml = amount of liquid to give.

Baytril example:
Most common amount I see recommended by vets for chickens in 10 mg/kg twice a day, and most common Baytril purchased is 100 mg/ml.

Five pound hen:
5 / 2.2 x 10 / 100 = 0.23 ml twice a day.


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## Nm156 (May 16, 2015)

Maybe that's why people should quit playing doctor on the internet?


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Nm156 said:


> Maybe that's why people should quit playing doctor on the internet?


What's the alternative? Sit back and do nothing? Convince people to go to a vet? Suggest they cull? Provide links to veterinary formularies? Books?


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Nm156 said:


> Maybe that's why people should quit playing doctor on the internet?


You are right. But vets are few and expensive. I'm lucky mine charges $40.00 for most things.

If your chicken is going to die, one might as well try anything to save it . Many of us have "pet" chickens .


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

robin416 said:


> Me too. I could do algebra like nobody's business but all that conversion math drives me nuts.


Yea, me too. For 20 years I could convert anything. Now? My brain is mush.

Kathy, there's no easy answer when there are several doses. And aside from injections, there's no way to know if they drink enough or too much medicated water. Personally, if the dosages are not there or have different amounts, I always fall back on 0.5ml for an injection and 1 tsp per gallon for water.

Like you, I find it most important to keep them nourished and hydrated while they fight off an ailment or are getting meds. Sometimes with a tube to make sure they are getting enough.


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## MikeA_15 (Feb 21, 2016)

One of the most troublesome aspects of raising birds in the beginning was not knowing what to do and having no one to help me when I had a sick bird. It was my ignorance. I didn't want to play doctor in my quest to learn about keeping them healthy, I wanted to learn what I could do to prevent parasites/disease and how to treat them. It is a necessity when it comes to raising birds.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

If I were to start a thread on medications and their doses, what format would everyone like to see? Will people just want to know how much to give, or will they want some data that shows why it's being suggested?


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

The simpler and cleaner it can be the better. But there should be a disclaimer to check with others or their vet before giving any drugs to try avoid over medicating for no good reason. I see that happen so often and add in that many times it's the wrong drug.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Gonna have to think about a clean way to do it... For most people, checking with a vet is not an option, so many will just google the dose, but they will find so much conflicting info that they will probably go with the dose that most people say to use, which in some cases will be fine, but far too often theses posts are from people that are just repeating what they read, not what's correct.


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

I actually think that you might be getting into dangerous territory esp. if someone took your dose and advice and it caused harm ,unintentionally of course, without a license it could be trouble. That's just my opinion you understand. ..


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

nannypattyrn said:


> I actually think that you might be getting into dangerous territory esp. if someone took your dose and advice and it caused harm ,unintentionally of course, without a license it could be trouble. That's just my opinion you understand. ..


I understand.... Some drugs, like Corid, Wazine 17, tetracycline and oxytetracyline will be very straightforward, but others could be a little tricky.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Might as well drop "Meds & Cures" from Emergencies, Illness, Meds & Cures in this forum. Nonsense. Good judgement and common sense prevails when using meds in chickens. 
Chickens have one of the highest metabolism rates in the animal kingdom. Here today gone tomorrow (actually a few hours with most meds including wormers.) That's why meds have to be given for longer periods of time in order to be effective, but not higher doses of the same medication which can cause possible organ damage. It's not necessary to be exact with dosages because of the longer periods of time given. Let's not get politically correct about this. We have enough of that with the boneheads in DC.


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## MikeA_15 (Feb 21, 2016)

If anyone wants to question the dosage, poultry science departments at American Universities have performed many trials where dosages are listed and proven safe. Like dawg53 said, the forum moderators may as well drop the remedy section of the forum if there can be no discussion about recommended dosages for poultry meds, supplements, etc.


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

I guess I'm just thinking like a nurse. I had no intention to offend at all. I certainly don't mind anyone talking about doses of anything. I love that Kathy enjoys sharing her expertise in finding proper doses. I look for the right meds and doses to give my girlies. I am a very poor mathematician , so I was thrilled when individual unit doses came out and I didn't have be afraid of giving the right dose to my pts. Rock on , Kathy!


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

nannypattyrn said:


> I guess I'm just thinking like a nurse. I had no intention to offend at all. I certainly don't mind anyone talking about doses of anything. I love that Kathy enjoys sharing her expertise in finding proper doses. I look for the right meds and doses to give my girlies. I am a very poor mathematician , so I was thrilled when individual unit doses came out and I didn't have be afraid of giving the right dose to my pts. Rock on , Kathy!


You have valid points, and I sure would feel bad if I posted a dose and that dose killed a bird. Some drugs, like Baytril, are supposed to be used cautiously in animals with renal problems, but there is no way to know if you're dealing with a renal issue without lab work.

I guess what I should add are drug interactions and contraindications. I just started a piperazine thread, so I'll go back and add drug interactions and contraindications, then all of you can let me know what you think of the format and how to improve it.


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

Ok, I will, thx!


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## MikeA_15 (Feb 21, 2016)

Hah. Typos can happen but some of us who are familiar with each other look out for that and we even question each other. I know one thing. I would never recommend a treatment I wouldn't use myself.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

MikeA_15 said:


> Hah. Typos can happen but some of us who are familiar with each other look out for that and we even question each other. *I know one thing. I would never recommend a treatment I wouldn't use myself.*


Quite right! Many things I haven't used, but I sure wouldn't suggest something that I wouldn't use.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

MikeA_15 said:


> Hah. Typos can happen but some of us who are familiar with each other look out for that and we even question each other. I know one thing. I would never recommend a treatment I wouldn't use myself.


Mike that's pretty important.

I agree with removing meds and cures.

Kathy, as well as some of us, is put between a rock and a hardplace. Darned if she doses, darned if she doesn't share her info.

There has to be a disclaimer in common language such as "I gave my chicken.....". Not "the dose is...." That makes it very lay person , and it sounds good even if she didn't give that med to a chicken.

In my personal opinion of a math fried retiree , it surely helps to have math put to the situation, a dose is 5mg. Per kg. So to me I like : my chicken weighs 5 pounds. 5 pounds is (lets say 3) kilos. Dose is 5 mg. Of med. X 3kg. = 15mg. Or maybe someone could write a different easier way of figuring.

Does anyone have suggestions on what to do if there are more than one dose published or if the labeling is wrong?

This is what happens sometimes with meds. My rooster acts listless and has lost weight and does not appear to be eating. So I put him on 2 meds for the most common ailments. However, day 5 he starts to smell really bad. I look in his mouth and he has canker/trichomonas . May have been cured with metrinazole. (Sp). However he would have had a chance caught really early. How early is early? Before they are symptomatic?

I do think that it's the crows carrying it. I've had 2 cases a few years apart. Now I have to figure out how to hide the water. It's dumped ever other day. In the summer every day.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

For meds that have a range, I can list that range, then list what *I* would give.

For labels that are wrong, well gotta just say that they're wrong then try to explain why. Not sure what else to do. When I think labels that are wrong, first two that come to mind are Duramycin 10 and Oxytetracycline, but the "labels" aren't wrong, the Durvet website is. And it's not just my opinion that they wrong, the math and science prove it. Sigh...

Almost forgot! One of the online places sells small bottles of Valbazen with homemade labels that have some very questionable dosing instructions. I'll elaborate on that another time.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Karen, the most common amoxicillin dose is 125 mg/kg twice a day. That works out to 284 mg for a 5 pound chicken, but the capsules are 250 mg, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that a 5 pounder would get just one capsule twice a day.

So an entry for amoxicillin might look like this:
Amoxicillin - ~125 mg/kg (57 mg per pound) twice a day
Five pound chicken - Give one 250 mg capsule twice a day for 7-10 days

Would that work?


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

casportpony said:


> Karen, the most common amoxicillin dose is 125 mg/kg twice a day. That works out to 284 mg for a 5 pound chicken, but the capsules are 250 mg, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that a 5 pounder would get just one capsule twice a day.
> 
> So an entry for amoxicillin might look like this:
> Amoxicillin - ~125 mg/kg (57 mg per pound) twice a day
> ...


I think so. I'm just telling from myself. But I like the way you broke it down. It's easier to follow. Thanks for sharing what you gave your chicken last week!


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

MikeA_15 said:


> Hah. Typos can happen but some of us who are familiar with each other look out for that and we even question each other. I know one thing. I would never recommend a treatment I wouldn't use myself.


This statement says it all, particularly the last sentence: Years of experience.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> I think so. I'm just telling from myself. But I like the way you broke it down. It's easier to follow. Thanks for sharing what you gave your chicken last week!


I did not give it last week, but have given it before to a few different birds. FWIW, the dose of 125 mg/kg twice a day is what my vet had me use. Since then, I have confirmed that that amount by looking in text books and by asking other people what their vets recommended. +/- a little either way is considered normal.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

nannypattyrn said:


> I actually think that you might be getting into dangerous territory esp. if someone took your dose and advice and it caused harm ,unintentionally of course, without a license it could be trouble. That's just my opinion you understand. ..


I think we all understand what you're saying here. True it's without a license. But over the years with chickens becoming so popular and at the same time vets unwilling to see a chicken or too expensive, there's really no alternative except to let die. Many want to at least try.

So I agree that it must be stated over and over that this is merely suggestions and used at the user's risk. It's probably best that we work on protecting the giver of the advice no matter who they are. And hoping people come back with the results to add to the wealth of our information.
*************************

Something different here. Marek's vaccine can only prohibit the growth of the tumors. It does not cure it, or cause a vaccinated bird to not spread Marek's if exposed. It does nothing for any immune suppression that the disease may cause long term. There is no cure, and a cure has been researched for over 100 years.

So someone posts that they have a cure for Marek's called Hypercium or St. John's Wort. (SJW) . They have a method for giving it in distilled water and how many times, dosage, etc. So hundreds of people try this on their birds that have the paralysis from Marek's or several other illnesses or a vitamin deficiency. If they survive it, they swear it works. So hundreds more try it.

There is no cure. If the bird is paralyzed from Marek's , chances are rare that they will survive. So what this "cure" has done is give hundreds of people false hope. And if the bird dies, hundreds of people think they didn't follow the instructions correctly and blame themselves.

I think that's even worse.


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

Thx, Karen! I was looking at it from more of a prescribers prospective. Experience is the best always!


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Don't get me started on the subject of SJW, lol.


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## MikeA_15 (Feb 21, 2016)

Experience comes with time from years of raising chickens and seeking legitimate sources of knowledge from poultry science departments who have taken time to perform trials and record results. I've said many times to people,"Don't just take my word for it, find out for yourself". There are numerous blogs, bumbling veterinarians, and snake oil salespeople who aren't worth the time of day for information. The internet is full of them.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

True. I think that's where reputation comes into play. Look for a long term member who has good feedback and is known to investigate doses and reasons. Also, may be important to ask for or give sources for the information.


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