# Mareks and the spread of disease



## Carternm31 (Nov 29, 2015)

Hello folks, I recently went to visit a local friend, with my dogs, and she also has chickens. She told me not to come over because she didn't want her flock to contract Mareks. and she is concerned that the dogs paws (as my birds free range) would be contaminated and she couldn't take the risk. Then, off the back of this, another 'friend' who was due to come out to the farm this weekend with her dogs, also cancelled due to the risk of her dogs taking home the disease and infecting her flock. 

This is insane, am I about to loose a bunch of friends over this. It prompted me to think about culling, scrubbing down and starting again, but i'm quite attached to my little flock and I never thought this would be such a serious problem. Thoughts?!?


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Actually both of you could. But so could the wind, wild birds, etc. Mareks is out there whether there is an active outbreak or not.

But I have to agree with your friend, her flock's health comes first. 

My best friend ended up having it her flock even though there had been no contact with outside influences. She vaccinated every one, even the older birds. We swapped birds back and forth for years after that. My flock never had any problems with contracting it even though I did not vaccinate any of mine.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Carter be glad you have such careful friends. Yes, you could walk it over there. If you cull all your chickens, scrub everything, you will still have Marek's on your property for up to 4 years. 

When I visit people with chickens, I wear my regular shoes. I have shoes at my back door specifically for the chickens. If I have to I'll also shower before I go. So maybe you can visit with clean shoes and clothes. I also don't touch anyone's chickens.

Marek's is a terrible virus . All you can do is make sure your new chickens in the future are vaccinated and quarantined. Hopefully you can talk to your friends and agree on a plan for safe visits. You are not alone.


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

Robin, just curious, do you vaccinate now? I have 2 that were hatched on our place that I know haven't been vaccinated. Should I do now? They are 4 months old and healthy.


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## Nm156 (May 16, 2015)

If i remember correctly they can only be given the vaccine at one day old.


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

Thx Nm, I was thinking that saw that somewhere. Where can you get the vaccine for home?


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Not only marek's; other poultry diseases can be transmitted on clothing, shoes, hands, dogs paws, truck tires etc.
My chicken shoes stay at the back door. I dont wear chicken clothes off our property.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

nannypattyrn said:


> Robin, just curious, do you vaccinate now? I have 2 that were hatched on our place that I know haven't been vaccinated. Should I do now? They are 4 months old and healthy.


No, none of my oldies are vaccinated.

My friend did vaccinate all of her older birds. At the time it showed up on her place she started vaccinating all of the day olds and then did the rest of her flock.

That same friend had ILT take out her flock at a later point.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

nannypattyrn said:


> Thx Nm, I was thinking that saw that somewhere. Where can you get the vaccine for home?


I get mine thru twincitiespoultrysupply.com . Wish it didn't cost so much. Day olds only.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

OK, maybe it's because I'm tired and sore but I have to argue this day old only thing. 

First, adults can get mareks, the virus is just not as deadly to them as it is to much younger birds. If they have not been exposed during their life time then vaccinating for mareks will not hurt them at all. But can protect them from it. Think of it this way, we receive vaccines as adults if any of the childhood vaccinations are missed. It protects us from contracting them at all.

If an adult bird does contract Mareks chances are they will survive but there is a physical impact. On necropsy lesions are found on organs scattered throughout the body. Do they have an impact on the quality of the health of the bird? I don't know because I've never seen anyone say they did or didn't.


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

That makes perfect sense. I guess the dose would change a little for an adult chicken.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

robin416 said:


> OK, maybe it's because I'm tired and sore but I have to argue this day old only thing.
> 
> First, adults can get mareks, the virus is just not as deadly to them as it is to much younger birds. If they have not been exposed during their life time then vaccinating for mareks will not hurt them at all. But can protect them from it. Think of it this way, we receive vaccines as adults if any of the childhood vaccinations are missed. It protects us from contracting them at all.
> 
> If an adult bird does contract Mareks chances are they will survive but there is a physical impact. On necropsy lesions are found on organs scattered throughout the body. Do they have an impact on the quality of the health of the bird? I don't know because I've never seen anyone say they did or didn't.


 Okay you're tired and grouchy.I think you're right. If it was adults that were never exposed, the vaccine would give them resistance. I have only had 3 or so that were older than a year die from Marek's. The most common is 6weeks to 4 months but not written in stone. So adults are much more resistant. Day old are vaccinated and quarantined for at least 3 weeks. This is MOL to be certain that they have not been exposed yet. It's assumed that many adults have exposure at some point in their lives.

If a chicken has or has not been vaccinated, but has been exposed, they will most likely suffer from immunosuppression in their lives. So I'm always after mine with treating them for the simple bacteria and cocci if they look sick. Sometimes I think that's worse. I've had several die from enteritis, E.coli and cocci brought on by immunosuppression.

Even with simple pox. I had 2 die from it. One silkie had large large growths all over his head and face. It would have been most likely not deadly in a healthy bird with a good immune system


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Sem, I know the adults my friend vaccinated were exposed since the necropsy did come back positive for Mareks. It didn't hurt them. As a matter of fact a bird I sent to her was vaccinated before she joined the flock. She came home to me when my friend sold out and moved West. 

Well the veterinary world is beginning to catch up to this chicken thing and looking more deeply at what illness' affect them in what way. Maybe they'll have true answers about how having had Mareks and recovered affects them during their life times. It's almost like your flock is a perfect example of what could happen once they recover, if it's from Mareks. 

I have to believe that mine have been exposed over the years at some point. It's like with us humans, just because we came in to proximity does not mean our immune system can't fight it off.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Yea I think the older ones build some kind of resistance. This is not a nice well behaved virus . Nothing is for sure. It mimics a lot of different ailments. It sometimes skips chickens for no reason. Following a flock with necropsies is the only way to know for sure. So I've gotten more simple in my approach. If they go lame and it gets worse, sometimes with wasting, and sometimes with loss of depth perception, I assume it's Mareks. Anyone else gets worming, an antibiotic and an anticoccidial, and possibly some tube feedings. That covers just about everything else. And I try very hard to keep it simple, such as what the most common bacteria is here. Viruses are different. Nothing you can do beside vaccinate..


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## Carternm31 (Nov 29, 2015)

Interesting reading. So my next question is this. knowing my flock has been exposed to Mareks, I was thinking of culling them all now and disinfecting and starting again next year with vaccinated chicks. However my vet says that the Mareks will be in the environment for 5months - 2 years. So there would be no point, just to keep the ones we have, add vaccinated chicks and put any down that exhibit symptoms along the way. But surely if I add new chicks onto the land where Mareks has been they will prolong the amount of time this virus will stay in the ground?!


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

No, if they are vaccinated they will not prolong the time period. It's if they were not then they could develop it and keep the cycle going.

Older birds that develop signs of it more than likely won't die but may exhibit issues like Sem's birds did in adult life. My friend lost her flock to ILT after the mareks so I can't say how hers did later in life. 

Are you planning on doing the vaccinating or are you getting them from a source that will already have them vaccinated? I'll have to ask my friend because I can't remember now if she allowed her hens to hatch or not but I know she vaccinated everything newly hatched from the incubator. I just don't remember what she did with peeps the hens hatched.


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

Where do get the vaccine for Mareks? I'm hoping to let mama partridge raise some if she gets broody.


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## Nm156 (May 16, 2015)

https://www.meyerhatchery.com/productinfo.a5w?prodID=VACM


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

Thx for the link, Nm! I'll check it out.


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## Carternm31 (Nov 29, 2015)

I was just going to order my next hens from McMurray hatchery who vaccinate all their birds.


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## Carternm31 (Nov 29, 2015)

So you don't think there is any need to cull even though they are likely all carriers?


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Not if you're going to get new birds in that are vaccinated. I'd have to do some digging on that carrier possibility, I'm not really certain.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Culling does not remove the disease from your property. Marek's is spread in the dander. I probably have it all over my house, LOL. I incubated in my closet last year-the cleanest place I could think of.

If a chicken is exposed, they become a carrier . If a vaccinated chicken is exposed, they become a carrier. The vaccine does not kill the virus, just protects the bird from developing the lesions. That's what they call a "leaky vaccine" where it does something but not everything.

I have 7 older birds left that have never been vaccinated. Plus 2 from next door. My other 24 are vaccinated. I've lost one vaccinated confirmed by a lab. The other ones that died at a few years old were exposed, resistant, and died from immune suppression- bacteria normally found in their body in small quantity that had grown out of control, ecoli, cocci, enteritis (possible clostridium). So any sick bird here that's over a year old gets sick , and it's not egg peritonitis, ascites, impacted crop, etc, I treat with Tylan and Sulfadimethoxine, and may tube feed for a week. That is my choice of cocktail. Others will work-ask Casportpony.

If you bring unvaccinated chicks into an exposed flock, some or most will die. There's only one way to protect the chicks. They are vaccinated at the hatchery, or vaccinated by you, and quarantined for at least 3 weeks. I wear gown and gloves as well for 3 weeks and don't bend over the container with the chicks. 

My information comes from reading on the internet from professional sources, first hand experience, others' experience, and a book called "Diseases of Poultry" edited by Y.M. Saif, and contains information gathered by over 100 scientists or researchers.

I have a link to a friend's gathering of all available information somewhere here. I know it's in my profile. Also in a long post.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

robin416 said:


> Not if you're going to get new birds in that are vaccinated. I'd have to do some digging on that carrier possibility, I'm not really certain.


Vaccination does not cause spreadable exposure. if vaccinated birds end up exposed at some point, they can become carriers only from the exposure.

I heard from other people that vaccinated chickens have a reduced rate of virus they put out if they have been exposed. But can not find any valid documentation to back this up. Chickenchick, and shagbark and others are not valid resources. Marek's scientists and researchers are. Usually connected to a university as a specialty area, like at Texas A&M.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Here's the link to an acquaintance who wrote this and it is accurate.
http://www.chickenforum.com/f12/great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq-9744/


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## Nm156 (May 16, 2015)

Carternm31 said:


> I was just going to order my next hens from McMurray hatchery who vaccinate all their birds.


Questions & Answers
Are your chicks vaccinated when they hatch?
Vaccinations are given to baby chicks, by request only. We offer vaccinations against Marek's disease and Coccidiosis.

https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/barred_rocks.html


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

You have to request it, that's right.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

I have to argue this statement: Chickens exposed to Marek's disease must be considered carriers for life, even if they were previously vaccinated and/or never develop symptoms.

If this were true then the birds I swapped back and forth with my friend would have brought Mareks in to my unvaccinated flock. And it wasn't just me that got birds from her, it was several other breeders. So, something does not ring true about that statement.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

robin416 said:


> I have to argue this statement: Chickens exposed to Marek's disease must be considered carriers for life, even if they were previously vaccinated and/or never develop symptoms.
> 
> If this were true then the birds I swapped back and forth with my friend would have brought Mareks in to my unvaccinated flock. And it wasn't just me that got birds from her, it was several other breeders. So, something does not ring true about that statement.


Was her Marek's confirmed by a state animal disease lab? Have either of you hatched any chicks at some point after swapping? If you were swapping adults, they are assumed to already have resistance.

Not much is known as solid fact with this disease because , like Herpes, it changes itself quickly. I still don't know why I had hatches for 2 years prior knowing it. I hatched about 5 times. Nothing happened. Then one hatch of 10 got paralysis 1 by 1 starting at 6 weeks. Last year I got 9 vaccinated chicks. At one year old died from Marek's (confirmed), without symptoms.
I have an unvaccinated roo that was hatched by me, went to a stable at 6 weeks, came back at 4 months, and been with me now 3 years.

There is no guarantee who will die and who won't. I think a lot has to do with concentration of virus available, and maturity of immune system. Sometimes they do not get the paralysis, but suffer immunosuppression from the virus, and die or get sick from some opportunistic microbe multiplying out of control.

My disease lab said that if tumors are not present,they don't send tissue for a PCR (better test of DNA).

So I can only say this about your birds not dying:
You and friend don't have it. (were tumors confirmed by a state run animal disease lab? if so, why was she still giving out birds?)
Did you both have older chickens at the time? 
Did any chicks die with paralysis?
Did chicks have any period of months where they were not exposed?
Have a few or yours or her birds die for no reason-not look sick and die or not have paralysis and look healthy?
Prior to me knowing, some hatches all lived but I don't know why.

The last 13 chicks I hatched unvaccinated all died. Three were 8 months old.
Researchers still don't know why some chicks survive.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Yes, hers was confirmed through a necropsy done by the state. She started losing young birds for no apparent reason so she sent two off. It took a while but it finally came back positive.

Yes, I must of hatched hundreds of chicks. I lost very few as a percentage, maybe one in one hundred. The same is true for the other breeders she sold birds or chicks to. 

And now that we're talking about it, I also bought birds from other breeders that had it show up in their flocks. There is no chance that all of the birds I had in my flock were resistant to Mareks because most did not share the same bloodline.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Tough question, Robin. I know with Marek's nothing is written in stone. Out of 5 adult birds that I had necropsied, only one was diagnosed with Marek's at a year old, and had been vaccinated. The rest I believe were due to immunosuppression because there were microbes that chickens normally carry around that killed them. But the 4 others were older and never tested positive! 

Resistance doesn't run in certain birds of a breed. But then again, no one really knows!

I have heard of people stating that they had it and got rid of it, and never had a problem again. I've heard of people having paralyzed birds that recovered. I've had some that did not display paralysis. I've had hatches after my flock had been exposed and I didn't know I had it and they were unvaccinated and never got it. I've had a hatch of 10 that got paralysis one by one starting at 6 weeks. That's when I knew.

I don't have all the answers, but neither do scientists and researchers. There is a lot of things said that aren't substantiated. (Hearsay). The only way to know for sure is to have a young bird (under 8 months old) display paralysis, die or be culled and sent to a state animal disease lab for a necropsy. That's the most accurate.

I do think (!) that younger birds put out more virus than older birds. I do think (!) that at some times of the year there is more virus spread. I have heard (!) that vaccinated birds put out less virus. I have a feeling (!) that these labs will only test if there's tumors seen (!)

I will read some of my books and see if there's any more information I can find. For any ailment, also look at the date it was published. I see a lot of info on the net that is 30 years old.


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