# Esther update



## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

She just has not been perking up. This morning we decided to bring her inside for some TLC I made an oatmeal slurry with some honey and scrambled egg using electrolyte water. At first I had to kind of force feed her by putting food in her beak (avoiding her airway of course) but now she has started eating off my finger and taking water out of a teaspoon. Hope this helps.


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

Have you tried Nutri Drench? I know you have been giving her vitamins. Robin or Dawg recommended the nutri drench. After I started giving my badly wounded hen this plus what you are doing now, she seemed to start perking up. She's doing great now. Maybe it has something more specific to help chickens recover. .


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Nutri Drench has the vitamins and minerals that they need when they're off their feed.

Esther, unfortunately, is down with one of those things that the only recommendation to give is support. She's also at an age that feeling the keel isn't that unusual. The best way to tell for certain is to compare her condition to another of the same age and preferably the same breed.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

She is Def not as listless as she was earlier today. I can send hubby out for nutridrench if that will help. As for now she is sitting wrapped IAn a towel on my kap


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)




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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

A bird with a body score of 1 is a critically I'll bird.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

She is somewhere between a 1 and a 2
Hoping we started this in time


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I think they get sick, lose their appetite or don't eat enough, then get so weak they can't eat enough. That's where tube feeding comes in with me.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

I didn't have the stuff on hand to tube feed. Hoping it doesn't come to that as she is eating from my hand.


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## Feline (Nov 8, 2015)

Hope she makes it- she looks like a cute little thing.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

The problem with those graphs is that they are for mature birds. Young birds still have quite a bit of filling out. At one stage with my Silkies the keel was so prominent that for an adult it would be a sign of serious issues. But in a young bird it was normal.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

8hensalaying said:


> I didn't have the stuff on hand to tube feed. Hoping it doesn't come to that as she is eating from my hand.


Once they get to a score of 1 it's almost impossible to save them. Get yourself a scale (kitchen or postal), weigh daily in the am. If she looses 1 gram you need to tube feed.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

robin416 said:


> The problem with those graphs is that they are for mature birds. Young birds still have quite a bit of filling out. At one stage with my Silkies the keel was so prominent that for an adult it would be a sign of serious issues. But in a young bird it was normal.


Then maybe the best way to check her body condition would be to compare her against another hen? If she is a standard size hen, I think she should weigh close to 3 pounds.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

She is a cross of a ccl and a Swedish flower about 24 wks. Don't know at what age would be full sized. I know our buff or ping ton makes her look tiny. Will try to catch one of the others for comparison


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Think of it this way, puppies. You know how they get to that gangly stage? Chickens do the same thing. For my Silkies at about five or six months they were all boney feeling when picked up.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

8hensalaying said:


> She is a cross of a ccl and a Swedish flower about 24 wks. Don't know at what age would be full sized. I know our buff or ping ton makes her look tiny. Will try to catch one of the others for comparison


Best to catch another about her size/age and compare them. I also strongly suggest that you get a scale and weigh her. At her age she should be making daily gains.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

8hensalaying said:


> She is a cross of a ccl and a Swedish flower about 24 wks. Don't know at what age would be full sized. I know our buff or ping ton makes her look tiny. Will try to catch one of the others for comparison


I just did a quick search on both breeds and I think my guess of 3 pounds is pretty close to what she should weigh.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

I compared and she is quite a bit thinner than our golden comet. We gave her isolated in the garage in a dog crate. I am feeding her a mix if cooked rolled oats with pedialyte honey scrambled egg and recently added canned cat food. She us taking that pretty good along with water with electrolytes. She pooped and her poop was a more normal dark poop with urates on top. Not green at all. She still isn't moving around a lot but shows signs if curiosity and interest in food. Not nearly as listless as she was this morning.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

I need a scale but will gave to get one tomorrow the food scale at my grocery store was not one you would be able to use for her and I am not really close to a walmart.


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## jn4 (Jun 21, 2012)

8hensalaying said:


> I need a scale but will gave to get one tomorrow the food scale at my grocery store was not one you would be able to use for her and I am not really close to a walmart.


I picked up a food grade digital scale from Walmart. The scale has a base that measures 8x8 inches and comes with a plastic tray for the items you want to measure....nice little set...I think I paid about 20-25$...works great.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

The one at the grocery was one of those old ones with a vase of about 2x2 and about 4 inches tall. Will try to go to walmart today was thinking a fishing scale might work too. Put her in an old towel as a sling.


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

I kept my old style baby scales for years and used it for weighing everything! I don't even remember what I did with it.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

8hensalaying said:


> The one at the grocery was one of those old ones with a vase of about 2x2 and about 4 inches tall. Will try to go to walmart today was thinking a fishing scale might work too. Put her in an old towel as a sling.


Get something like this:


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

You really want something that will be accurate, and I don't think a fishing scale will be accurate enough.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

nannypattyrn said:


> I kept my old style baby scales for years and used it for weighing everything! I don't even remember what I did with it.


I'd like to get one of those for weighing the ones that are too big for my food scale.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Cute picture, Kathy.

I'm glad Esther's poo changed to a more normal color. Good sign.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

Ok, got a food scale at walmart. Weighed her she was just under 2 lbs,1.96 or 8(hard to read I had to put a glass plate on the scale as it is a little small, but the plate had a pattern on it, got a better read after I fed her. at 2.09 lbs.) I am feeding her by syringe not tube feeding, as it is just me doing it so I am using a 10cc syringe and doing it about every hour and a half. I got about half a cup down her this morning and another just now. She is tolerating it very well and looks more alert. the only thing is yesterday morning she was walking fine, and this morning she won't stand. She isn't even trying. She holds her head up ok and looks around will drink from a teaspoon, and eat a few bites but not much hence the syringe. I am hoping that with more food and calories she will regain her energy.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

She needs no less than 100 ml of fluids per day.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Does the scale also weigh in grams? You might find it easier to track her weight. Be sure to weigh her in the morning before you feed her since weighing them after feeding will give you a false reading.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Is her poop still green?


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

No her poop is a light brown now, and she had an explosive runny one earlier. Is it possible for her to get pasty butt? I decided to check her bum and it was a bit messy, so when i went to clean the area around her vent she had a major poo. I brought her in and bathed her in warm water and blew her dry I hated to do it was afraid it would put her into shock, but she seemed about the same. I am giving her electrolyte water, dows the total fluid intake include what her food is mixed with? It is a pretty runny pasty solution. I'm making that with the electrolyte water as well. and yes I checked I will change it to grams in the morning.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

Well she made it through the night. I forgot to change the scales to grams, but she weighed exactly the same in pounds as she did after I fed her. have changed it now so she will be weighed in grams from here on. She is eating as long as I put the food in her beak so I am alternating with something a little more solid I gave her her syringes about 7:30 and just got her to eat about half of a soft scrambled egg.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Other than the egg, what type of food is she getting?


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

I ask because many people think that eggs are high in protein, but they actually aren't... I think that whole eggs are only 12-16% protein.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

I have a paste I have made up with beef pate cat food, rolled oats cooked in electrolyte water and a little honey


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Can you get some Kaytee Exact baby bird food from petsmart or petco?


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

casportpony said:


> Can you get some Kaytee Exact baby bird food from petsmart or petco?


Yes I can go this afternoon. Do I need the macaw one or the other bird one?


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)




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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

That's the one you want.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

Ok got it. How much at a time. How many times a day. Gonna do my best to give this tube feeding thing a try. At the end I just have to know I did all I could.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Did you get a tube? How big is your syringe?


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

I did it!!! I hope successfully, I had a minor setback, the syringe I got had an opening that was too big to fit in the aquarium tubing (didn't have time to stop at tractor supply so got a larger one at petsmart) so I had to rig it up. I had a small piece of larger tubing and then I duct taped the seam, It will do for now until I can get to TSC. She struggled a little, but I could easily see I was not in her trachea but in her esophagus. I also did it all by myself. I set her in a box on top of our washing machine in the laundry room where I had really good light. I got 35 cc's in her. I didn't want to over do it since she had some food in her crop already. How often should I do this? And does this give her enough fluids as well?


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Proud of you! Wait two hours and check her crop. If crop is clear or mostly clear, give 30 ml of fluids, then check again in 60-90 minutes and repeat if mostly clear. Doing this should go a long ways in correcting her hydration. Once you have done the fluids twice you can start giving her 30-50 ml of Kaytee. How much they can have really depends on the bird... Some can tolerate a huge amount, but others might vomit with very little. The amount you started with is what I would have started with. 

Do the fluids as I suggested, the one more feeding of the Kaytee. Weigh first thing in the morning. Plan on tubing Kaytee 2-4 times tomorrow. How often and how much you will depend on her ability to clear her crop. Always best to let crop clear overnight or they can develop crop issues from the food sitting in there. 

1 part food to 2-3 parts water is probably enough to keep her hydrated, though you might have to play around with it if her stools are too runny.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Did you modify the end of the tube with a lighter to make it less sharp?


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

yes, I did read that tip on one of your old threads on BYC. Now for fluids, do I tube her and just pour water in her crop? With or without electrolytes? sorry for so many questions, I just want to give her the best chance I can.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

8hensalaying said:


> yes, I did read that tip on one of your old threads on BYC. Now for fluids, do I tube her and just pour water in her crop? With or without electrolytes? sorry for so many questions, I just want to give her the best chance I can.


Tube 30 ml of whatever you think is best. I usually use water, Gatorade or Pedialyte... Know nothing about the various electrolytes. Repeating in 60-90 minutes is very important, a least that's what one of my books says, so that's how I do it.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

YEAH!!!!! Go Tube Feeding Team!!!! Good for you.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

I keep checking her crop and it is emptying very slowly, Do I need to wait til it is completley empty for fluids? it is squishy and about the size of a newborn baby's foot. (only thing I could think to compare it to lol) is that clear enough to do fluids?


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

Ok, well that didn't go as well. Hubby was helping me thank goodness as she got a little feisty and struggled a bit. I put 30 mils down the tube and some came back up, but the food stayed down. Will check her again in about an hour. Hoping to get another tube of fluids down her and some more food before bed time. Tomorrow should be a better routine, I hope.
Forgot to say this was fluids no food.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

Ok, so her crop was so slow to empty i couldn't do another feeding on her before bed. This morning it seems pretty empty, She had a huge loose greenish brown poo, not bright green. She is also a little feisty/spastic when holding her. Not sure if that is a good sign or not. She is also panting a little, don't know if that is just stress but it is new since yesterday. I am looking for an old sweatshirt I can cut the sleeve out of to help restrain her, since it is just me doing this. I can't hold/contain her and tube her both. Weight in grams 1162 which is about 2.59 lbs so I feel better about that.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Can you refresh my memory... what medications has she had so far?


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

casportpony said:


> Can you refresh my memory... what medications has she had so far?


the only thing I have done is worm her with wazine


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

8hensalaying said:


> the only thing I have done is worm her with wazine


You probably already know this, but Wazine only treats large roundworms, and only treats them if they drink enough medicated water.

Can you post a current poop picture?

-Kathy


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

I dumped out the old bedding with the poop in in, and put new in she is now on a towel and has not pooped again, that was about 8:30 this morning. Everything I read indicated that if you used a broad spectrum wormer first the die off can kill them so to use wazine first then go with the broad spectrum. I do not know if she got enough in her. I am afraid it is too late but am willing to try with another wormer if you suggest. I have not seen any worms in her poop at all, but do understand they aren't always there. I looked for pictures similar to what I saw and this seems the closest to what was in her box. I found in on another forum and it was from a hen with Clostridium perfringens is what they said. symptoms were similar, except it cited excessive water consumption and I never noticed that with Esther.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

I am also wondering at what point are we just prolonging suffering. She cannot sit up, when I go to tube her she thrashes around and kicks, but otherwise no other movement. She is panting all the time, I am wondering if when I gave her the fluids and some came back up if she aspirated it. No coughing or sneezing or any other abnormal respiratory sounds.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Clostridium can be treated with quite a few drugs, but poop like that could also be something else, like worms, E. coli, coccidiosis or some combo of them. I feel for you, I really do. Do you have any human antibiotics?

If you don't hear gurgling, I don't think she aspirated. The panting could be pain related.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

I have an old cephalexin 250 mg rx from 2012, can I give her anything for pain?


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

I can also go to TSC tomorrow and get whatever you recommend.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

8hensalaying said:


> I can also go to TSC tomorrow and get whatever you recommend.


She's so ill that I'm afraid to make suggestions... You can treat clostridium with Tylan and coccidiosis with Corid. For pain some people use aspirin, but I'm not sure that's appropriate for her.

Can you post a picture of her?


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

yes, let me go get one, I just checked her and her crop is not empty so I am afraid to tube feed her yet. She poo'd so i can get a pic of that as well. It's not pretty, Though I am sure you have seen as bad.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)




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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

Poo pic.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Roll her over onto her left side so that there is no pressure on her crop. Also try to prop her up into a proper sitting position. How warm or cool does she feel?


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Is she panting or open mouth breathing?


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

It isn't a fast panting, but I guess more open mouth breathing. when she takes a breath she closes her eyes. I'll go turn her over now, I didn't think about the pressure on her crop.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

Ok went out to reposition her put s towel around to hold her more upright. She won't keep her feet under. She keeps pushing back with r gem which makes it hard to get her comfortable. Here is how she is now.














she is cool but does not seem overly cold. I have Her in an unheated garage in a small dog crate completely wrapped in blankets.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

Talked to hubs we are bringing her in tonight. It is supposed to get very cold tonight. We just have to be careful because our dog has the run of the house except our bedroom/bathroom....Guess she will spend the night in out bathtub lol.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

How's her crop?


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

Not empty but not completely full either. Full enough I hesitated to tube her again. I got 3 tubes in her today. It is soft and palpable.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

How warm does she feel? If you do tube her again, tube just warm water, but only do it if she is warm.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Sorry. I read that she is cool. Sick birds are almost always hypothermic, so you might want to put her in the warmest room in your house - 80-85 degrees is ideal for most sick birds.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

I brought her in but don't think ahas had time to warm up. Her feet felt pretty cold.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Ive used a heat lamp at times . I always have those red bulbs around.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

She made it through the night. her head was hanging over the edge of the box and she wasn't moving so I wasn't sure at first. I got her re situated, and I'll move her to the laundry room once Katie is off to school as it should be pretty warm with the clothes dryer running. I can also sit the box on a heating pad. I don't have a red bulb heat lamp as I don't brood babies, may need to look at getting one.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

She was at 1159 grams this morning, loss of 3 grams. Hopefully moving her to a warm environment will help. Got her fed, will try to get a 4-5 feedings into her today, yesterday only got 3 because her crop would not clear, and I am not sure how full to make it. Each tube is 35cc's.


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## chickenmommy (Apr 30, 2013)

I'm sorry that your hen is doing so poorly. I think at this point that you have tried everything you can. Her poop looks like "wasting". Your doing a great job giving her support but it might come to that point soon where you have to make a decision for her. I'm sorry Hun I wish you the best


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

chickenmommy said:


> I'm sorry that your hen is doing so poorly. I think at this point that you have tried everything you can. Her poop looks like "wasting". Your doing a great job giving her support but it might come to that point soon where you have to make a decision for her. I'm sorry Hun I wish you the best


That is what I am afraid of, I have never had a problem making the call of when a dog or cat is suffering but for some reason this is harder for me. Maybe because these are our first girls, and this is my first illness. I feel guilty that we should have started something sooner. Hubby and I talked about it this am. He says that when the time comes he will take care of it for me. He thinks we should give it a few days, but I don't. Will have to have another talk tonight.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

My main consolation is all the other girls are perfectly fine, and they have all been here together from the beginning, so I don't think this is anything contagious or I would be seeing other issues.


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## chickenmommy (Apr 30, 2013)

raising chickens is sometimes a learning process. If you make the decision to end her suffering don't feel guilty. You have tried your best and through this process you have learned a lot about trying to rescue a chicken. It might be too late for this girl but with your new knowledge your better prepared if an illness pops up again in another chicken. We have all been there and lost a chicken or two but through those experiences we learned how to save another chicken.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Oh my Gosh, been there about 50 times. The first ones are hard. Heck all of them are hard. When they don't get better, it feels like you failed them. Sometimes I just take them to the vet at times because I'm not up to doing it. Some I do and some hubby does. 

I have found luck with 30-40 ml of vodka tubed. Takes about an hour to work. I hold them until then. It's worked for me 5+ times now so I can now say it works. It's non violent. 
For me, I try all the things I can do to save them. If they don't respond, I know it's out of my hands. I am very good at denial.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

Thanks all for the help. Hubby likes the idea of the vodka, so we may give this a try, we are both heartbroken over it, but one of the things about having animals is doing what is right to them, and knowing when to end their suffering.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

RIP Esther, You gave us joy every day, watching you dominate the roost and keeping the girls in line. Your audacious personality will always be remembered. We will miss you.

We made the very difficult decision that Esther was in too much pain to continue trying last ditch efforts to improve the quality of her life. This responsibility proved to be much weightier than we anticipated and thus we both, hubby and I spent the evening in tears. While we know we made the right decision it still was not easy, nor should it have been. We know this will not be the last time, but it was our first, and for that we will never forget. I'll spare you all the gory details, but please know we ended her life with respect and care. She is now at peace. I want to thank you all for all your help, and support. You have all been a tremendous comfort for me. Once again making me grateful I found this wonderful group of people.


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## chickenmommy (Apr 30, 2013)

RIP Esther. Fly with angels sweet girl


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## chickenmommy (Apr 30, 2013)

I'm sorry for your loss 8hens


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

You did your best to provide her care and comfort in her life. It never gets any easier when it comes time to cull a bird and it seems it's always a favorite. It hurts, even for me...and I've been raising chickens for a long time.


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

Thanks all for the kind words. I think it took hubby by surprise how much it affected him. He has always said that once the coop was built he was done. His phrase "not my circus not my monkeys" so while he knew it wouldn't be a pleasant task, he underestimated how attached he had become. We waited until Katie was in bed, and so we thought asleep, but the dog barked and woke her up, right after. So we had a big ole family cry and are going to have a "chicken funeral" this evening when Daddy get's home from work.


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

I'm sorry for your loss! I can't watch "the deed" even when we are just putting roos "in the pot". I can do everything else but that.
When, I was growing up in the Texas hill country, the ranchers raised Angora goats for their lively hood. Durnig the shearing season the mama goat would be so excited that they would "drop" their almost ready to be born "kids". If I could, I would rescue these little goats because the mom would reject them. I didn't know that I inadvertently was killing them by using cows milk. We always had funerals for them. I think at least something like that helps with closure esp. when so much effort is put into a well loved critter of any kind.


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## zamora (May 26, 2015)

I'm so terribly sorry about Esther. I know how difficult this has been on you and your family.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

So sorry. Hope you feel better soon. {{{{hugs}}}}


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

casportpony said:


> So sorry. Hope you feel better soon. {{{{hugs}}}}


Thank you,casportpony especially for all your help. I feel bad thinking I should have treated her more aggressively from the beginning, but am trying to stay positive and view this as a learning experience so I can do better by my girls in the future. It's cool but pretty here today so I have been spending time out by the coop watching them dust and sun bathe and enjoying the healthy girls I still have  Bittersweet day.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

8hensalaying said:


> Thank you,casportpony especially for all your help. I feel bad thinking I should have treated her more aggressively from the beginning, but am trying to stay positive and view this as a learning experience so I can do better by my girls in the future. It's cool but pretty here today so I have been spending time out by the coop watching them dust and sun bathe and enjoying the healthy girls I still have  Bittersweet day.


You tried really hard, I know you did. Best not to second guess yourself (I know, easier said than done - been there) and go forward with the new skill set you have.


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## Feline (Nov 8, 2015)

Awww RIP Esther


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