# Sour crop or cocci question



## Feathers and Friends

Hello I’m needing a little help trying to figure out a few things. I have a mixed flock of all ages 10 months-5 years. One of my 10 month old hens that has been very healthy has had sour crop off and on. She’s been laying and doing fine up until yesterday she is lethargic with sour smelling yellow and dark green diarrhea. I have Fluconazole on the way to treat the sour crop. I just wormed the rest of the flock yesterday with Valbazen but skipped her because of her being sick. My question is could this possibly be cocci with the sour smell and if so how long after valbezen wormer can I go ahead and treat with Corid? Can my older birds 2+ years old get cocci? Or should I just wait for the Fluconazole to get here and just start treating her with that?..sorry for all the questions.


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## chickenqueen

I'm not experienced with it.Hopefully someone will see this soon and answer your questions.BTW-welcome to the forum!!!


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## Feathers and Friends

chickenqueen said:


> I'm not experienced with it.Hopefully someone will see this soon and answer your questions.BTW-welcome to the forum!!!


Thank you, hope to hear from someone too.


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## Feathers and Friends

I want to also add that my first thought was she may have broken egg inside of her . She’s been laying some thin shelled eggs leading up to this and she was in the nest box the day before but didn’t see an egg. This all started on Friday. I noticed the sour diarrhea smell mostly this morning.


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## dawg53

Feathers and Friends said:


> Hello I'm needing a little help trying to figure out a few things. I have a mixed flock of all ages 10 months-5 years. One of my 10 month old hens that has been very healthy has had sour crop off and on. She's been laying and doing fine up until yesterday she is lethargic with sour smelling yellow and dark green diarrhea. I have Fluconazole on the way to treat the sour crop. I just wormed the rest of the flock yesterday with Valbazen but skipped her because of her being sick. My question is could this possibly be cocci with the sour smell and if so how long after valbezen wormer can I go ahead and treat with Corid? Can my older birds 2+ years old get cocci? Or should I just wait for the Fluconazole to get here and just start treating her with that?..sorry for all the questions.


Did you smell inside her mouth and smell a bad odor to determine it was sour crop? Did you see any lesions inside her mouth. If it's sour crop, the fluconazole should take care of it, however, I dont know the dosage.
Cocci infects the digestive tract, not the crop, esophagus nor gizzard. You can wait one day after using valbazen to use corid if you wish. It's possible two + years old birds can get cocci if waterers and feeders are contaminated with feces. Otherwise it's not common for older birds to be overrun with cocci unless they have compromised immune systems, for example; marek's disease.
If there's a broken egg inside her, bacterial infection sets in rather quickly. If this is the case, there's not much that can be done for her.
After all these treatments that you want to do, try treating for non specific enteritis. A molasses flush may help. Mix 3.2 ounces molasses per gallon of water for no more than 8 hours and give it to her to drink. You'll probably have use an eyedropper to give it to her orally. Be careful not to aspirate her. Good luck.


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## Feathers and Friends

Hi Dawg, thanks for getting back with me! Yes, strong sour smell in her mouth crop and diarrhea smells sour. She came down off the roost and ate some scrambled eggs and buttermilk this morning and then went back. The waterers are cleaned and sanitized daily and poop is scooped out multiple times a day. We take bio security very seriously. They do free range 3-4 hours daily. It’s been cooler and very dry here and their on coarse sand so I wasn’t sure of the chances of it actually being cocci. I guess the smell is what got me thinking and how quickly this seemed to hit her. 
Since I just wormed everyone else and the flucon should be here by Wednesday latest I will just start with that and see if I can get this under control. I can do the molasses flush in the mean time as well.


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## seminole wind

If it's a broken egg, you would probably see yellow yolk. You may want to lube a finger and examine her. I usually end up inserting my whole finger as far as I can to look for an egg bound situation. You won't hurt her-chickens pass eggs , so the path is wide enough.

Sour crop is a symptom, and you need to find the cause. At night, make sure her crop has food in it, and the next morning it's empty. If not, she may have a blockage and need real watered down food and crop massage several times a day to break up the mass. Molasses sounds good , a does real canned pumpkin. Small pieces of bread soaked in some olive oil may help. But check for the crop emptying in the morning.


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## Feathers and Friends

Hi there, I had some blackstrap molasses so I mixed that up and she drank on her own 4-5 drinks. I am going to let the others have some for the remainder of day since I wormed them yesterday should help clear them out as well. 
I do crop checks pm/am pretty regularly and it was never impacted just balloned up. I have a few other girls that will have an impact here and there but usually clears quickly with a little massaging. Hers has not been emptying. 
The first day her poop looked like raw egg that’s why it was my first thought that she may have a broken egg. Thank you for your advice as well I am going to see if I have some pumpkin and check her vent.


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## Feathers and Friends

We checked in her vent but didn’t feel anything. She has shown some improvement. She walked around and ate some watermelon and sardines we didn’t have pumpkin. Drank some water and seems a tad bit perkier. Hopefully that rules out the broken egg possibility.


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## dawg53

Be careful and not give her too many products that can cause diarrhea. You dont want her to lose minerals that can possibly degrade her immune system. I dont recommend anything else to cause her to flush her digestive tract at this point. 
Get her back on regular layer feed.


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## seminole wind

any chicken of any age can get cocci. In fact my state lab vet says with backyard chickens, you should routinely treat for them twice a year.


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## Feathers and Friends

Thank you for all the great advice. She continued to walk around yesterday and today crop is still full and squishy so not out of the woods yet. Her poop was a little more substantial but still looks terrible. It’s the yellow and really dark emerald green. Usually when I see the weird green I suspect bacterial infection. I will make sure she has softened layer feed only today. The rest of the flock that was wormed is passing roundworms. We have all types including tapeworms here to contend with year round.


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## Feathers and Friends

seminolewind said:


> any chicken of any age can get cocci. In fact my state lab vet says with backyard chickens, you should routinely treat for them twice a year.


Routinely treat as in using a round of Corid? Is there a better product to use as a preventative? I've heard denagard not only helps MG but works as a coccidiastat. Not sure if that would be a good option.


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## seminole wind

Cocci are protozoans (?). Antibiotics aren't used on cocci as far as I know. But someone here may know more. 
I've never used corid as a preventative. The vet said that backyard chickens are more prone to the # of cocci . The cocci can build up in the chickens and the symptoms can be very mild and go unnoticed. This includes adult chickens. So he recommended treating twice a year with a round of corid. 

I do have to say that all but one of the necropsies I had done showed cocci as a contributor to death. I think that any illnesses allow cocci to multiply. 

But I think that sour crop or impacted crop can be caused by other things, most likely some blockage. It's hard to dx on the computer. But in general, a group like ours can certainly throw some ideas out there based on prior experience.


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## seminole wind

Feathers and Friends said:


> Thank you for all the great advice. She continued to walk around yesterday and today crop is still full and squishy so not out of the woods yet. Her poop was a little more substantial but still looks terrible. It's the yellow and really dark emerald green. Usually when I see the weird green I suspect bacterial infection. I will make sure she has softened layer feed only today. The rest of the flock that was wormed is passing roundworms. We have all types including tapeworms here to contend with year round.


I guess green (like bright green?) can be from bacterial infections. For me it means that they are wasting and sick. Are your chickens actually passing worms? Dawg usually has a good solid plan for wormy areas, like Florida.


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## dawg53

There are 2 types of cocci protozoa that corid wont treat and require a sulfa drug to kill the protozoa. It is due to the bacterial type infection the protozoa causes. If corid doesnt work, nor improvement seen within 5 days; assume it's bacterial acting protozoa's and use sulfadimethoxine or sulmet, either will require a script from a vet. There are egg withdrawal periods for both sulfadimethoxine and sulmet.

I have never known Tiamulin (Denagard) as a treatment for cocci. It's primary purpose is to treat MG/MS/MM. As expensive as Denagard is, a bottle of sulmet AND a bottle of liquid Corid combined are cheaper and very effective against both types of cocci. 

F & F, have you used valbazen on your sick hen yet? If you havnt, I recommend that you dose her 1cc orally, undiluted and check her poop again.


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## Feathers and Friends

dawg53 said:


> There are 2 types of cocci protozoa that corid wont treat and require a sulfa drug to kill the protozoa. It is due to the bacterial type infection the protozoa causes. If corid doesnt work, nor improvement seen within 5 days; assume it's bacterial acting protozoa's and use sulfadimethoxine or sulmet, either will require a script from a vet. There are egg withdrawal periods for both sulfadimethoxine and sulmet.
> 
> I have never known Tiamulin (Denagard) as a treatment for cocci. It's primary purpose is to treat MG/MS/MM. As expensive as Denagard is, a bottle of sulmet AND a bottle of liquid Corid combined are cheaper and very effective against both types of cocci.
> 
> F & F, have you used valbazen on your sick hen yet? If you havnt, I recommend that you dose her 1cc orally, undiluted and check her poop again.


I haven't wormed her since she was so sick. Since everyone else is passing worms I wondered if she could benefit too but since valbezen is strong I wasn't sure if I should. I only give them 1/2 cc- 3/4 cc of Valbazen. Have I not been giving them enough? They are English orps varying 5-7 lbs hens and my rooster is about 12 lbs.


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## Feathers and Friends

I am also having to worm them about every two months it seems like. I need to rotate but not sure which one to use. Figured safeguard was a good choice but it seems like I have to give them so much. They don’t do well with me giving them liquids. Is there a pill wormer that’s good out there? Do you have any suggestions of anything out there that’s a little easier to administer that I could rotate with Valbazen?


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## seminole wind

Worm with valbazen, use 1ml or you'll be creating resistant worms. Then worm again 10 days later still with valbazen 1ml. Safeguard is good but it requires several doses in a row.


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## Feathers and Friends

I wormed her so we’ll have to wait and see if that works. I lightly massage her crop and she burps a strong sour smell still. It hasn’t drained much she ate softened layer feed off and on yesterday. Drank a little bit today. Her poop is mostly dark yellow not much green anymore. Hopefully the valbazen works quickly. It seems like it takes a day or two.


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## Feathers and Friends

seminolewind said:


> Worm with valbazen, use 1ml or you'll be creating resistant worms. Then worm again 10 days later still with valbazen 1ml. Safeguard is good but it requires several doses in a row.


Thanks for letting me know. When did the dosage go up? The dosage that is posted on most blogs I've seen over the last few years is:
1/4 cc bantam
1/2 standard 
3/4 heavy


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## dawg53

Feathers and Friends said:


> I wormed her so we'll have to wait and see if that works. I lightly massage her crop and she burps a strong sour smell still. It hasn't drained much she ate softened layer feed off and on yesterday. Drank a little bit today. Her poop is mostly dark yellow not much green anymore. Hopefully the valbazen works quickly. It seems like it takes a day or two.


Valbazen works slowly over several days, that's why it's a very good wormer...dont have to worry about toxic dead worm overload.


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## dawg53

Feathers and Friends said:


> I am also having to worm them about every two months it seems like. I need to rotate but not sure which one to use. Figured safeguard was a good choice but it seems like I have to give them so much. They don't do well with me giving them liquids. Is there a pill wormer that's good out there? Do you have any suggestions of anything out there that's a little easier to administer that I could rotate with Valbazen?


The reason you need to worm more often is due to the worms lifecycle. Your birds shed worm eggs onto the soil, contaminating the soil. Then your birds peck the soil, picking up and ingesting eggs. This is why I worm monthly especially since my birds are on the same soil all the time. 
I think Karen rotates with a gel sometimes. It can be mixed in feed or water. It is for parrots but a bird is a bird and should be effective with chickens. However, I dont know what the dosages would be for chickens. I've never used the product. Here's a link:
http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/worm_out.html
To cut down on the worm load, there are a few things you can do; remove soiled litter from inside the coop daily, rotate free range areas, remove poop several times daily if they are constantly penned up, ensure everything is as dry as possible, put sand in your pen. Sand dries quickly and deters pests...much like at the beach.
During the hot summer when birds are thirsty, I sometimes use wazine because I know they'll readily drink the treated water especially when they are let out of the coop first thing in the morning.


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## Feathers and Friends

When do you get to eat the eggs if you worm monthly? With a 14 day withdrawl period after that second dose that’s pretty much your whole month. Unless I’m withdrawing too long. I’m very interested in the gel. I will check that out. I do scoop poop about 3 times a day in coarse sand. Ive always done that so I can stay on top of what their poops look like as well as keeping parasites in check. We also refresh the sand about 4 times a year by adding more. I also have seen tapeworms, roundworms and small fast moving ones I’m assuming are cecal.


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## seminole wind

Feathers and Friends said:


> Thanks for letting me know. When did the dosage go up? The dosage that is posted on most blogs I've seen over the last few years is:
> 1/4 cc bantam
> 1/2 standard
> 3/4 heavy


I

I think Dawg could give you accurate dosages. My dosage may be off. Not sure.
I have also wormed with Nilverm in the water. It's Levamisole. I.m not sure where I got it.


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## dawg53

Feathers and Friends said:


> When do you get to eat the eggs if you worm monthly? With a 14 day withdrawl period after that second dose that's pretty much your whole month. Unless I'm withdrawing too long. I'm very interested in the gel. I will check that out. I do scoop poop about 3 times a day in coarse sand. Ive always done that so I can stay on top of what their poops look like as well as keeping parasites in check. We also refresh the sand about 4 times a year by adding more. I also have seen tapeworms, roundworms and small fast moving ones I'm assuming are cecal.


We eat the eggs after worming. We're still here. The residue is minute. I dont recommend it IF someone or somebody suspects they have an allergy to albendazole (valbazen.)


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## dawg53

seminolewind said:


> I
> 
> I think Dawg could give you accurate dosages. My dosage may be off. Not sure.
> I have also wormed with Nilverm in the water. It's Levamisole. I.m not sure where I got it.


I recommended 1cc for F&F's hen that hasnt been wormed in case tapeworms were involved.


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## dawg53

Here's a pic of poultry cecal worms:


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## seminole wind

I don't give anyone eggs while worming or medicating and a week or two after. But we have always eaten them.


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## Feathers and Friends

dawg53 said:


> We eat the eggs after worming. We're still here. The residue is minute. I dont recommend it IF someone or somebody suspects they have an allergy to albendazole (valbazen.)


[/QUOTE]

Good to know thank you. Our hen passed away this morning. I researched enteritis and it sounded the closest to her symptoms and how quickly it came on. We have neighbors close by that feed wild birds and they are always over there eating things they shouldn't. Also could have been brought on by parasites since it sounds like we haven't been worming enough. I am going to look into the gel you mentioned in the water as a rotational option.


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## dawg53

Sorry for your loss F&F.


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## Feathers and Friends

Thank you and thanks a lot for your help I really appreciate it.


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## seminole wind

Very sorry. I once had 3 die each over night from enteritis.


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## Feathers and Friends

seminolewind said:


> Very sorry. I once had 3 die each over night from enteritis.


That's terrible! Hopefully everyone else is ok and didn't get it as well. I have one that came from the same breeder. She has the greenish yellow urates. She's got good weight on her and her poop is firm so I started her on oxytet and it seems to be improving. Not sure if it could lead to enteritis or not but better safe then sorry.


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## seminole wind

I have treated with sulfadimethoxine in the past.


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## seminole wind

Feathers and Friends said:


> That's terrible! Hopefully everyone else is ok and didn't get it as well. I have one that came from the same breeder. She has the greenish yellow urates. She's got good weight on her and her poop is firm so I started her on oxytet and it seems to be improving. Not sure if it could lead to enteritis or not but better safe then sorry.


Things could not have gotten any worse. After a friend grew some Crete Polish up, I got the first 8 eggs. All hatched. I killed the first one because of a Marek's vaccine hitting a nerve. I lost 3 to symptom less enteritis. I had put one in my bedroom for (transient) paralysis and still have her after 7 years, so she missed the enteritis episode. Lost 2 to a one eyed eye infection - I don't know what it was. I had 2 remaining. The roo is gone. So I have one- the one saved by living in my bedroom for 6 weeks.

If you are new at "pet" chickens, just beware that the favorites seem to be some of the first to go.


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## Feathers and Friends

seminolewind said:


> Things could not have gotten any worse. After a friend grew some Crete Polish up, I got the first 8 eggs. All hatched. I killed the first one because of a Marek's vaccine hitting a nerve. I lost 3 to symptom less enteritis. I had put one in my bedroom for (transient) paralysis and still have her after 7 years, so she missed the enteritis episode. Lost 2 to a one eyed eye infection - I don't know what it was. I had 2 remaining. The roo is gone. So I have one- the one saved by living in my bedroom for 6 weeks.
> 
> If you are new at "pet" chickens, just beware that the favorites seem to be some of the first to go.


I've had chickens growing up but this is my first time doing it myself. I've been doing it for four years now. It doesn't sound like that long but I've had every disease pretty much a chicken can get pass through my flock. So, I feel like I've been doing it a lot longer.


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## Feathers and Friends

seminolewind said:


> I have treated with sulfadimethoxine in the past.


 Unfortunately I don't have that one in my arsenal. If it's by prescription only then I can't get it. When they changed the laws in 2017 I did stock up on some Baytril, Tylan and Tetracycline. I used sulfadimethoxine topically for bumble foot once. Cleared it up quicker then anything else I had tried so seems be good stuff. I just looked it up and read that it helps with cocci in dogs and cats is that the case with chickens as well?


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## dawg53

seminolewind said:


> If you are new at "pet" chickens, just beware that the favorites seem to be some of the first to go.


THAT is the absolute truth! That's why I try not to get attached to them.


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## dawg53

Feathers and Friends said:


> Unfortunately I don't have that one in my arsenal. If it's by prescription only then I can't get it. When they changed the laws in 2017 I did stock up on some Baytril, Tylan and Tetracycline. I used sulfadimethoxine topically for bumble foot once. Cleared it up quicker then anything else I had tried so seems be good stuff. I just looked it up and read that it helps with cocci in dogs and cats is that the case with chickens as well?


Like I've mentioned before, sulfadimethoxine and/or sulmet will treat two types of cocci in poultry when corid is ineffective.


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## casportpony

I think you can use the injectable sulfadimethoxine orally. No prescription needed.


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## seminole wind

I ended up with injectable this time. Oral use would make me feel better.


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## Feathers and Friends

dawg53 said:


> Like I've mentioned before, sulfadimethoxine and/or sulmet will treat two types of cocci in poultry when corid is ineffective.


 Thank you for letting me know. Is there a specific one i should get? I've seen 40% & 5% albon and what would be the dosage for chickens to give them orally? Other than cocci what are some of the other ailments this works well on?


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## Feathers and Friends

seminolewind said:


> I ended up with injectable this time. Oral use would make me feel better.


 As long as it doesn't hurt them I was told Tylan injectable can be given orally and I did that once and it seem to burn my hens mouth and was painful so I haven't done it since.


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## Feathers and Friends

I found 400 mg sulfamethoxazole in a tablet called “bird sulfa” if that is the same I would rather have the tablet. They eat pills no problem.


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## casportpony

Feathers and Friends said:


> Thank you for letting me know. Is there a specific one i should get? I've seen 40% & 5% albon and what would be the dosage for chickens to give them orally? Other than cocci what are some of the other ailments this works well on?


The 5% is prescription only oral suspension, so that means one would buy the 40% injectable. l have to research the dose to be sure, but I think it's 25-50 mg/kg once or twice a day, which is 0.03-0.06 ml per pound.


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## casportpony

Feathers and Friends said:


> I found 400 mg sulfamethoxazole in a tablet called "bird sulfa" if that is the same I would rather have the tablet. They eat pills no problem.


That will also work.


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