# Deworming with Wazine?



## Barredrockmom

I purchased 4 young hens and 4 weeks later one of my resident hens drops a round worm. I went out and purchased Wazine and treated 2 ounces to 2 gallons of water. I let them drink only the treated water for one day as the instructions list. It does not however list how long treated laying hens eggs must not be eaten. I did a search here. I know on the other forum, Robin went into detail on how and when but my computer keeps freezing before I can do a search on the old site. 

Someone here on a very short thread said eggs must be avoided for 4 weeks. Is this correct? Can I feed back the treated eggs to the hens if the egg is cooked? I hate to waste eggs as I get so few right now. 

Thanks all in advance.


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## Sundancers

From what I read ...

Do not use in chickens producing eggs for human consumption.

http://www.drugs.com/vet/wazine-17.html

I'm a non med person ... Sorry


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## robin416

What I probably said is that no one ever tested to see if the wormer ends up being passed in to the egg. 

Four weeks is about right for safety.

I probably also said I forgot and ate the eggs any way. I never bothered checking on piperzine but most of the wormers we use in the birds are also used in humans.


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## Barredrockmom

Thanks Robin. So my family will not have worms? I see that as a plus. LOL


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## robin416

Well, it the idea that there are always some internal parasites in our animals the same is probably true for us.


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## Barredrockmom

From the FDA study done in 1969

Piperazine


is a low molecular weight secondary amine that is used in human medicine to treat ascariasis (roundworms) and enterobiasis(pinworm). The oral dosage for treating enterobiasis in
humans is 65 mg/kg/day for seven consecutive days with a maximum
daily dose of 2.5 g. This dosing regimen is routinely repeated two
weeks after the first. Extrapolation between the short- term
therapeutic use in humans and chronic lifetime exposure can be
handled by assuming that a threshold for activity exists and
applying a large safety factor to the therapeutic dose. The residue
data in Master File No. 3527, Jefferson Chemical Company, show
that, following treatment of food-producing animals with piperazine,
relatively high levels of total residues are incurred in tissues. The
metabolism data also show that these residues deplete relatively
quickly, and there is evidence that piperazine maybe metabolized
into endogenous
substances. Thus, at longer withdrawal times, much of the residue
present maybe of no toxicological concern. Together, these data indicate that a period of withdrawal prior to slaughter should be observed with the use of piperazine in chickens, turkeys.

My take on this study. While this study is discussing slaughter food I keep in mind that most of the toxins are stored in the chicken liver as with any food animal. Since so many eat the livers, the study suggests being mindful of a withdrawal period. The egg however is a by product of digestion of foods and calcium that build and are expelled via the duct, it may not be as much concern for eating the eggs only. Robin. Four weeks of not eating the eggs sounds like common sense. I agree.

And keep in mind the reason a poultry dose is much higher than a human therapeutic dose is birds metabolize much faster than humans. It has to do with the faster the heart rate, the faster the drug travels and is expelled.


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## robin416

From NIH, a little more indepth information.

Absorption, Distribution and Excretion

Following oral administration in humans, piperazine has shown to be absorbed rapidly and to be excreted predominantly and quickly in the urine. During the first 24 hours after administration nearly 40% of the dose was excreted.

Rapidly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract.

Not absorbed through skin in acute toxic amount. /Piperazine hydrochloride/

Time to peak concentration /is reported as/ 2 to 4 hours.

Piperazine is thought to be distributed into breast milk but no definitive information is available.

Approximately 20% is excreted unchanged in the urine within 24 hours.

Piperazine was rapidly absorbed following oral administration to 4 laying hens (300 mg/kg bw 14-C-piperazine dihydrochloride, equivalent to 154.5 mg/kg bw piperazine base). Peak plasma concentrations of radioactivity were present 1 hour after administration (26.72 ug piperazine base/mL of plasma). The major route of elimination was via the excreta and consistent with the rapid decline in the plasma concentration of radioactivity. A quantitative recovery of radioactivity in excreta was achieved with approximately 85% of the dose recovered 168 hours post administration, 70% already within 24 hours after administration. Piperazine was rapidly absorbed following oral administration to 1 male and 1 female pig (300 mg/kg bw 14-C-piperazine dihydrochloride equivalent to 154.5 mg bw piperazine base). Peak plasma concentrations of radioactivityw ere present 1 hour after administration 922.75 ug piperazine base/mL of plasma). The major route of excretion was via urine... Within 24 hours of dosing 46% of the dose was recovered in urine. At 168 hours after administration a total of 55.7% and 15.9% of the administered radioactivity were recovered respectively in urine and in feces. /Piperazine dihydrochloride/

Six male and 6 female pigs were given a single oral dose of radiolabelled piperazine dihydrochloride (300 mg/kg bw, equivalent to 154.5 mg piperazine base/kg bw). Groups of 3 animals were killed 12, 24, 48 and 96 hrs after dosing. The concentrations of total radioactive residues declined from 21,670 ug equivalents/kg in muscle, 12,830 ug equivalents/kg in skin and fat, 71,850 ug equivalents/kg in liver and 125,899 ug equivalents/kg in kidney at 12 hrs after administration to 7,527, 7,793, 44,230 and 63,000 ug equivalents/kg in the respective tissues after 24 hrs. After 48 hrs the respective values were 2,626, 3,324, 27,410 and 19,580 ug equivalent/kg, which declined to 1,824, 2,671, 12,890 and 6,270 ug equivalents/kg in muscle, skin and fat, liver and kidney, respectively, after 96 hrs. /Piperazine dihydrochloride/

Twelve laying hens were given a single oral dose of radiolabelled piperazine dihydrochloride (300 mg/kg bw, equivalent to 154.5 mg piperazine base/kg bw). Groups of 3 animals were killed 12, 24, 48 and 96 hrs after administration. ... Twelve hrs after administration the tissue concentration of radioactivity was highest in liver (14,140 ug/kg), while muscle, skin and fat contained 4,564, 2,797 and 624 ug piperazine equivalents/kg, respectively. The corresponding values for piperazine base were 2,210 ug equivalents/kg in muscle, 1,421 ug equivalents/kg in skin, 161 ug equivalents/kg in fat and 3,271 ug equivalents/kg in liver. At 96 hrs after treatment the total residues amounted to 307 ug equivalents/kg in muscle, 457 ug equivalents/kg in skin, 356 ug equivalents.kg in fat and 1,346 ug equivalents/kg in liver. The corresponding values for piperazine base residues in skin and liver were 28 and 35 ug/kg, while the values for muscle and fat were below the limit of quantification of 25 ug/kg. /Piperazine dihydrochloride/

Four laying hens were given a single oral dose of radiolabelled piperazine dihydrochloride (300 mg/kg bw, equivalent to 154.5 mg piperazine base/kg) ... Eggs were collected up to 168 hrs after treatment and /the eggs of a futher/ 6 birds were collected until 96 hrs after treatment, at 24 hr intervals. The highest concentration of radioactivity in eggs was present at 48 hrs after administration (mean total radioactivity of 8,240 ug equivalents/kg corresponding to 7,970 ug/kg of piperazine base) declining to a mean value of 2,483 ug equivalents piperazine base/kg at 96 hrs after administration. The percentage of parent piperazine in the total residue content in eggs was 94% and 77% at respectively 48 and 96 hrs after administration. /Piperazine dihydrochloride/

The absorption, distribution and excretion of piperazine dihydrochloride have recently been studied in pigs. By gastric intubation, two male and two female pigs were administered a single dose of 14C-piperazine at a nominal dose of 300 mg/kg bw and the excretion of radiolabeled material in urine and feces was followed for up to 7 days in two animals, and two were sacrificed 12 and 24 hours after dosing for determination of radiolabel in liver, kidneys, muscle, fat and skin. Peak plasma concentrations were attained 1 hour after administration, followed by rapid disappearance from the blood. 56% of the total activity was eliminated via urine during 7 days, out of which 46% was excreted in the first 24 hours. During the time of observation, 16% was excreted in feces, while; again, most of the dose (8%) was eliminated during the first 24 hours. When residues present in cage debris and washes are also included, after 7 days about one fourth of the totally administered amount can be considered as still retained in the body. Of the sampled tissues, the highest activity was found in kidneys and liver. However, whereas elimination of the activity in kidney was rapid, with only some 3% remaining of the 12-hour value post dosing, the excretion from liver, skeletal muscle, fat and skin was considerably slower with 10, 11, 24, 25%, respectively, remaining after 7 days in comparison with the 12-hour levels. There is no information concerning enterohepatic circulation or biliary excretion. / Piperazine dihydrochloride/

Upon oral administration to humans of piperazine salts, there were wide individual variations in the rate of excretion with urine, where approximately 15% of the dose was excreted with urine within 5 hours, and 30% after 24 hours.

The excretion of piperazine with urine was studied in five human subjects administered a single oral dose of 3.5 g piperazine citrate. Within 24 hours between 60 to 75% of the administered dose was excreted. The total recovery in urine collected during 24 hours varied from 15 to 75%.

With the statement about "relatively quickly" I wondered what the half life of Wazine is.


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## Barredrockmom

I'm sure if it was toxic to humans the bottle would be labeled not for human consumption nor consumption of meat or eggs of chickens treated 
and look at the reason chickens are raised. For meat and eggs. Why would someone want to treat chickens just for fun as the worm it's self is not a threat to most hens. It is more of a zoonotic concern.


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## robin416

Leave it to NIH to study whether or not the Wazine ends up in the eggs. That is the first time I've ever seen that someone actually studied the possibility.


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## Barredrockmom

I attended a four year course on Ayurveda/Chinese/American herbs, The course included so many aspects of how our food is grown, toxic chemicals in our food, water, and air. It made us crazy to know how much pollution is being sold as safe foods in our markets. Our fish and meats are irradiated. I was a manager of a meat department and it in 1998 it was a real hush, hush method being used with out the knowledge of the consumers.

Our vegetables are grown over and over again in the same plot of land. It used to be fields were rotated or left feral for a year to rebuild nutrients naturally. With rotation and diversity there is less pests so less of a need for pesticides and less need to fertilize with chemical fertilizers. The farmers used to graze the herbivores to rebuild the crop fields.

There are so many studies that are buried as the negative reports would damage the bottom line of farmers and food companies. Soy is one of those studies. Sally Fallon wrote an article on the Dangers of Soy. It is a endocrine disruptor. The soy in our foods is not meant for human consumption as it is loaded with estrogen's. It is fed to our food animals to fatten them up for market. It is causing feminization of males and interferring with thyroid function. 

Bottom line. We learned was just do the best you can to find good foods or grow as much as you can. Buy certified organic. This label has a picture of a grain on a gold label. 

It makes me crazy but there is no herbal or safe way to rid round worms. Natural herbs used against worms can be toxic to chickens. So what can we do in a world where we depend on others to do so much for us. 

This is the reason so many of us here grow our own chickens. We know what they are fed and can feel like we are at least doing something good for our family.


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## babychic

yes barredrock mom soy was meant to be fermented like in miso and tofu which has been done for centuries safely and with good benefits. isolating anything is not balanced. what a cruel joke to play on people seeking a healthier diet and lifestyle to tell them soy isolate is good for them and put it in everything.
i am also an advocate of natural and going along with nature, not against her. the problems in the world today have been caused by unnatural lifestyles and products.

i wish my grandfather was alive so i could ask him what he did for his chickens for parasites and things like that. he didn't use pesticides or anything.

i use alot of homeopathy and herbs as well, and find them to work quickly, im wondering if an herbal dewormer could be somehow added to chicken feed, like i order from fiasco farms for my horses goats dogs. its given weekly not daily and humans can take it as well. since i ferment their feed i was thinking of adding some garlic and stuff to it. one of my chickens started acting kind of funny yesterday and i wonder if she has worms.

that is appalling they were irradiating without anyone's permission. humans are so into obedience and not asking questions they are not even capable of thinking clearly or logically anymore, except for a few, and we tend to be chastised for being different.


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## Barredrockmom

You just do the best you can. I believe the best way to expell toxins and keep a healthy body is exercise. We already have the most complex and complete detox system with in our bodies. We no longer move nor have physical labor like we used to in the days of having to grow and make our own foods. This conversation can go on for ever. 

Wormwood and artemesia are natures de-wormer for humans and can be use on larger animals. Birds and cats are more sensitive to these two herbs. I have an area where we burn every year and I notice the birds bathing in the dust as well as eating it from time to time. It will turn their feces black. Who knows what they do on their own to de-worm. We have them confined so they only have access to what is in our yard. It would be interesting if someone had done a study to see what chickens in the wild eat. Parrots, songbirds and other wild birds eat certain plants at certain time of the year. Maybe they know more than we do.


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## junebugs

Thank you! But can you translate? What is ug equivalents?


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## casportpony

In Canada there is a zero day egg withdrawal when treating with Wazine (piperazine).

From Farad:
http://www.usfarad.org/drug-wdi-faqs.html

Fenbendazole
Fenbendazole is approved as an oral suspension for laying hens in the United Kingdom for treatment of gastro-intestinal nematodes at a dose of 1mg/kg/bw for 5 days and has a zero day egg and six day meat withdrawal. In the US, since there is no tolerance, this withdrawal needs to be extended. Submit a withdrawal request to FARAD.

*Piperazine
There is one study looking at piperazine residues in the eggs of treated hens. Piperazine is approved for use in laying hens in Australia and Canada at doses ranging from 130 to 200mg/kg/body weight one time and a zero day egg and meat withdrawal. Because of the lack of a tolerance in the US, FARAD recommends a 17 day egg withdrawal for piperazine used at broiler label doses in laying hens.
*
Ivermectin
There are limited studies available in the literature on the depletion of ivermectin residues from eggs. Given the limited studies and data available, FARAD cannot provide a blanket withdrawal interval recommendation and individuals are requested to submit a withdrawal interval request to FARAD. Submit a withdrawal request to FARAD.

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## Maryellen

How can wazine be ok in other countries and not here in the US?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Chicken Forum mobile app


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## dawg53

Maryellen said:


> How can wazine be ok in other countries and not here in the US?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Chicken Forum mobile app


Other countries have the money to do egg testing. 
Our country is stuck in the commercial egg production mode and companies wont spend money testing eggs under expensive controlled conditions just for backyard flock owners. 
Think about it: There's no need to worm commercial caged birds that are up off the ground. It's virtually impossible for them to get worms. After two years of egg laying, the birds are hauled off to be processed and a new batch of egg layers take their place.
Therefore no worming is needed and it saves alot of money.
This is another reason poultry owners have to use "off label" wormers to kill other types of poultry worms because wazine only gets rid of large roundworms.
It's all about the money.


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## casportpony

Maryellen said:


> How can wazine be ok in other countries and not here in the US?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Chicken Forum mobile app


Other countries have zero day egg withdrawal for other wormers like fenbendazole (Safeguard and Panacur), flubendazole (Flubenvet). It's not just wormers, it's antibiotics, too. Other countries have a zero day egg withdrawal for oxytetracycline and tiamulin (Denagard).

Here is a table:


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## Maryellen

Wow thank you!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Chicken Forum mobile app


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## Zoly

robin416 said:


> From NIH, a little more indepth information.
> 
> Absorption, Distribution and Excretion
> 
> Following oral administration in humans, piperazine has shown to be absorbed rapidly and to be excreted predominantly and quickly in the urine. During the first 24 hours after administration nearly 40% of the dose was excreted.
> 
> Rapidly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract.
> 
> Not absorbed through skin in acute toxic amount. /Piperazine hydrochloride/
> 
> Time to peak concentration /is reported as/ 2 to 4 hours.
> 
> Piperazine is thought to be distributed into breast milk but no definitive information is available.
> 
> Approximately 20% is excreted unchanged in the urine within 24 hours.
> 
> Piperazine was rapidly absorbed following oral administration to 4 laying hens (300 mg/kg bw 14-C-piperazine dihydrochloride, equivalent to 154.5 mg/kg bw piperazine base). Peak plasma concentrations of radioactivity were present 1 hour after administration (26.72 ug piperazine base/mL of plasma). The major route of elimination was via the excreta and consistent with the rapid decline in the plasma concentration of radioactivity. A quantitative recovery of radioactivity in excreta was achieved with approximately 85% of the dose recovered 168 hours post administration, 70% already within 24 hours after administration. Piperazine was rapidly absorbed following oral administration to 1 male and 1 female pig (300 mg/kg bw 14-C-piperazine dihydrochloride equivalent to 154.5 mg bw piperazine base). Peak plasma concentrations of radioactivityw ere present 1 hour after administration 922.75 ug piperazine base/mL of plasma). The major route of excretion was via urine... Within 24 hours of dosing 46% of the dose was recovered in urine. At 168 hours after administration a total of 55.7% and 15.9% of the administered radioactivity were recovered respectively in urine and in feces. /Piperazine dihydrochloride/
> 
> Six male and 6 female pigs were given a single oral dose of radiolabelled piperazine dihydrochloride (300 mg/kg bw, equivalent to 154.5 mg piperazine base/kg bw). Groups of 3 animals were killed 12, 24, 48 and 96 hrs after dosing. The concentrations of total radioactive residues declined from 21,670 ug equivalents/kg in muscle, 12,830 ug equivalents/kg in skin and fat, 71,850 ug equivalents/kg in liver and 125,899 ug equivalents/kg in kidney at 12 hrs after administration to 7,527, 7,793, 44,230 and 63,000 ug equivalents/kg in the respective tissues after 24 hrs. After 48 hrs the respective values were 2,626, 3,324, 27,410 and 19,580 ug equivalent/kg, which declined to 1,824, 2,671, 12,890 and 6,270 ug equivalents/kg in muscle, skin and fat, liver and kidney, respectively, after 96 hrs. /Piperazine dihydrochloride/
> 
> Twelve laying hens were given a single oral dose of radiolabelled piperazine dihydrochloride (300 mg/kg bw, equivalent to 154.5 mg piperazine base/kg bw). Groups of 3 animals were killed 12, 24, 48 and 96 hrs after administration. ... Twelve hrs after administration the tissue concentration of radioactivity was highest in liver (14,140 ug/kg), while muscle, skin and fat contained 4,564, 2,797 and 624 ug piperazine equivalents/kg, respectively. The corresponding values for piperazine base were 2,210 ug equivalents/kg in muscle, 1,421 ug equivalents/kg in skin, 161 ug equivalents/kg in fat and 3,271 ug equivalents/kg in liver. At 96 hrs after treatment the total residues amounted to 307 ug equivalents/kg in muscle, 457 ug equivalents/kg in skin, 356 ug equivalents.kg in fat and 1,346 ug equivalents/kg in liver. The corresponding values for piperazine base residues in skin and liver were 28 and 35 ug/kg, while the values for muscle and fat were below the limit of quantification of 25 ug/kg. /Piperazine dihydrochloride/
> 
> Four laying hens were given a single oral dose of radiolabelled piperazine dihydrochloride (300 mg/kg bw, equivalent to 154.5 mg piperazine base/kg) ... Eggs were collected up to 168 hrs after treatment and /the eggs of a futher/ 6 birds were collected until 96 hrs after treatment, at 24 hr intervals. The highest concentration of radioactivity in eggs was present at 48 hrs after administration (mean total radioactivity of 8,240 ug equivalents/kg corresponding to 7,970 ug/kg of piperazine base) declining to a mean value of 2,483 ug equivalents piperazine base/kg at 96 hrs after administration. The percentage of parent piperazine in the total residue content in eggs was 94% and 77% at respectively 48 and 96 hrs after administration. /Piperazine dihydrochloride/
> 
> The absorption, distribution and excretion of piperazine dihydrochloride have recently been studied in pigs. By gastric intubation, two male and two female pigs were administered a single dose of 14C-piperazine at a nominal dose of 300 mg/kg bw and the excretion of radiolabeled material in urine and feces was followed for up to 7 days in two animals, and two were sacrificed 12 and 24 hours after dosing for determination of radiolabel in liver, kidneys, muscle, fat and skin. Peak plasma concentrations were attained 1 hour after administration, followed by rapid disappearance from the blood. 56% of the total activity was eliminated via urine during 7 days, out of which 46% was excreted in the first 24 hours. During the time of observation, 16% was excreted in feces, while; again, most of the dose (8%) was eliminated during the first 24 hours. When residues present in cage debris and washes are also included, after 7 days about one fourth of the totally administered amount can be considered as still retained in the body. Of the sampled tissues, the highest activity was found in kidneys and liver. However, whereas elimination of the activity in kidney was rapid, with only some 3% remaining of the 12-hour value post dosing, the excretion from liver, skeletal muscle, fat and skin was considerably slower with 10, 11, 24, 25%, respectively, remaining after 7 days in comparison with the 12-hour levels. There is no information concerning enterohepatic circulation or biliary excretion. / Piperazine dihydrochloride/
> 
> Upon oral administration to humans of piperazine salts, there were wide individual variations in the rate of excretion with urine, where approximately 15% of the dose was excreted with urine within 5 hours, and 30% after 24 hours.
> 
> The excretion of piperazine with urine was studied in five human subjects administered a single oral dose of 3.5 g piperazine citrate. Within 24 hours between 60 to 75% of the administered dose was excreted. The total recovery in urine collected during 24 hours varied from 15 to 75%.
> 
> With the statement about "relatively quickly" I wondered what the half life of Wazine is.


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## Zoly

Half-life for Piperazine in eggs is about a week (6.9 days) from the day of dosing hens, using the data above for concentrations at 48 and 96 hours. I assumed D(t) = Do e^(-kt), and found that the exponential decay (or e-folding) constant is k = 1/(10 days), and Do = 1.15 (not 1.0 initially, because there is a rise time to the Piperazine peak at 48 hours). The half life in general is LN(2)/k.

Interesting that Canada says it’s ok to eat eggs after one day. It doesn’t hurt hens, and the concentration in humans (from eating eggs) is much smaller than in hens (from drinking treated water). I’d wait a week, not knowing the safe dose in humans.


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## robin416

Welcome to the forum, Zoly. It's nice to see someone around who can translate the the numbers into words most people understand. I lost the patience for doing that years ago. Probably because I had to work at it. You worded that first paragraph like you were doing the math in your head. 

I've learned over the years that much of what we were told is just because. Because they didn't really know the truth so told us not to do it.


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## Zoly

Thanks, Robin, for the feedback and for the useful data. I wanted to know about withdrawal times, since I had to worm hens for the first time in 20 years. Maybe because they are eating cat poop. Scribbled the calculations ... scientist is my day job.

Wazine did the job - hens look good again and are laying fine. Next, to finish off larvae with fenbenzadole 1 mg/kg - right?


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## robin416

LOL I don't remember. I haven't wormed mine in over ten years. I know the info is on here somewhere on the fenben dosage. I stopped worming after reading a study about horses and immune systems. I just wanted to see what would happen with the birds. 

Turns out it was OK not to worm, I just lost one that was 14 years old.


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## robin416

It took me longer than it should have to find this but i can be stubborn. When I was worming my birds I did use the horse paste because it was easier to access. But having over a hundred birds that got old fast.

For capillary worms I give 10 % Safeguard (fenbendazole) liquid or paste *orally* at ~0.23ml per pound for five consecutive days.

For coccidiosis I use amprolium (Corid, Amprol, Ampromed, etc)

9.6% liquid - dose is 2 teaspoons (10 ml) per gallon for 5 days, then 1/2 teaspoon (2.5 ml) per gallon for 7-14 days.

20% powder - dose is 1.5 teaspoons per gallon for 5 days, then 1/3 teaspoon per gallon for 7-14 days.
If I suspect both, I treat for both at the same time. Amprolium and Safeguard *can* be given together.


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## dawg53

Welcome to the forum Zoly.


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## casportpony

Zoly said:


> Next, to finish off larvae with fenbenzadole 1 mg/kg - right?


If you want to treat for large roundworms and/or cecal worms, yes, it's 1 mg/kg for five days. Zero-day egg withdrawal according to the FDA.


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