# Horse talk



## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

Many of us have or have had horses in our lives over the years. Part of farm work or ranching or plain old pleasure....

I started out my life with horses back in 1967 I was twelve then. I was born in 1955 so I am an OLD geezer... LOL.

My journey started out with an Outlaw my dad bought me because he knew conformation and health... But we were new to the area so he didnt know the particular horse's reputation. My first introduction to trail riding had me thrown into a pile of cobble stones and having to walk the mile home. Yep I was with a group... That horse was traded straight across for a babysitter.

I was taught Calvery style riding initially... Western saddle posting trot... but I gravitated toward english. Eventually on to Dressage... Only to improve my communication to my horse. and Finally to Driving.

Right now I have a Percheron mare named Katee. I bought her in 2000 as a six year old pasture ornament. I ground drove her for about a year before I could save up enough money for a trainer to help me take the next step... Because by now I was riddled with arthritis and not quick enough to hitch my girl for the first time.

So Julie helped me with that final step... she also took it another step and saddle trained her.

So my love is in order:
horses of all kinds
Driving any discipline
Riding any discipline

I am still learning... always will be. Because you can never know it all... 

deb


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

No not stubborn that way... Stubborn in you need to move the entire head over to get the horse to move that way.

The horses that don't like to move at all -blah-

But the horse I grew up on wasn't like that.. She had quirks that you had to work around.. But she would ride by neck reigning... Super soft easy horse... Just lean forward go fast, lean back and stop, neck reign to turn.

If you weren't laid back and gentle on her she would buck you off.... And of course we wore no helmets back then... 
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Originally Posted by Fiere View Post 

LOL I have to be the one that disagrees of course. 
Contact does not necessarily make a horse more confident or encourage motion and balance. Training does; of horse AND rider. 

Sure, if you ride dressage that is the basic premise of it. Have the horse willingly working on the bit in frame with forward impulsion from the hind. My higher trained horses worked willingly in frame with forward impulsion from the hind *without* contact. 

I never ask for contact unless the neck rein is being ignored or I'm picking up the reins to signal a cue/during schooling. Even then it's only picking up contact for the exercise and the release is me going back to one hand with a draped rein. Contact (for me) is correction. 

I also teach horses to stop when I apply my spurs - such is the backward nature of western I suppose haha. I can't stand riding english - I feel like I'm holding the horse together for every movement: inside leg, outside rein, bend the ribs, lift the shoulder, tuck the nose, lift the belly, march on at this exact pace... I accomplish all that by rolling a spur and moving one hand - it just seems so much better to me!
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Ah but you do ask for contact ... neck reining is contact, spurs are contact... yep riding English can be a lot of work... but Dressage is simply the french word for training. ANY person worth their salt with horses uses contact for communication. Yoiu stop by changing your seat right... so you dont have to use the spur or the reins... the spur just reinforces the ask.

EVen I at the time I was 320 pounds trying to get back into riding... Not the form or function or appearance of a "dressage" person. Even I was able to simply use contact in order to stop my mare from bolting for home... No I couldnt hold my feet just so... at the time the best I could do was sit like I was sittin in a chair. Though I could keep my heels down.. I was unable to post at all. NO core strenght. Even with all that I was able to ask for a half halt to remind her I was there and she needed to listen to me.

Contact then was Throwing her away and sitting back. But if you watched me do it you wouldn't have seen much. She hadn't even been asked for a half halt before.. I was riding with a very mild English snaffle. WE were about two miles from the ranch when Katee realized she was alone...

Result was she Ewwwed shook her head and went to turn around... I knew I was in no shape to fight that fight but I was able to request her take another path making a small turn around by my decision through a copse of trees. ONce headded back she started ramping up... Jigging Jogging wanting to trot... I would not have survived a canter.

So I half halted.. asking her to stop and the moment she came down I threw her away... By halfway home she was giving me Passage... It was awesome. and I didnt die.
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Dressage should always feel like "wind in the sails". If the hind end is creating energy that is being limited by soft hands and a horse's softly accepting that "framing" by softening the jaw, that's what leads to collection. As the hind legs reach further under the horse, the weight of the horse is "lightened in the front" allowing it's back to lift and develop more collection (hind legs reaching under and lowering of the haunches. If you hold the horse behind the vertical, the energy from the hind is not going to fill up that soft contact, and you end up with legs that are trailing behind and a hollow back known as a false frame. 

These dressage judges are rewarding this false frame in exchange for the fancy high leg movement in the front and a horse held behind the vertical. (There is training of horse and rider = dressage) at training and first level. Then there's dressage meaning the continuance of utilizing the basic training as a platform to learn more difficult movements. Example, a trot done properly with straightness, consistency, and impulsion used on a circle leads to a bend, if you make the circle smaller with maintaining all that the trot becomes more collected. Also using half halts to rebalance the weight further onto the hind end. Coming off the circle will get you a lengthened trot. The beginning of the ability to lengthen and shorten the trot. Which leads to a collected trot and an extended trot. The collection increases to the point that the horse has to carry more weight on the hind end, more bend in the haunches and lightening the front to the point that the horse lifts the front legs higher.

I you play between extension and collection it will eventually give you a passage (slow elevated trot) It's all setting the ground work for the next level. All built on the thrust and carriage of the hind end into the frame of soft hands and a soft contact. The horse will have to soften the jaw for correct communication.

This pulling of chin to chest or nose behind the vertical will not allow this to happen. So the "cheating" may not be seen by the lay person, but any judge or dressage educated person can pick up on. The nose behind the vertical will not allow for a soft rounded back and the transfer of the carrying weight of the hind end, and prevent the hind legs from reaching under to balance the horse. 

So this is what the international judges are rewarding. The wrong way done animated. Looks great, but is not true dressage. I call it "cheating"

Olympic level competition has become all the incorrectness with fancy movement is winning. And correctly done dressage is not winning. 

Now we have a "wonder horse" named Totilas who at 5 years old never needed the cheating and disgusting methods. He had real talent. 8 years of that poor training became a horse that could not change to be ridden correctly , was confused and made mistakes, developed injuries, and is now retired, and the iron handed rider is the sugar boy, and the one who worked hard at giving the horse the correct frame was ostracized for being the cause because of poor riding.

This has finally been proven with recording the horse competing under each rider, and actually nailing correct movement by the rider who is winning less but more correct, and artificially flashy movements winning high scores.

Sorry I run on about this. But it breaks my heart to see how everyone had to have a piece of this horse until he is no longer competed. This also includes that the horse spent 23 hours a day for over 10 years never being able to be turned out to run a bit in a pasture, or on a trail ride with other horses. 

The iron fisted sugar boy has gone on to train other horses the same way, and had recently been disqualified from a test because his horse started bleeding at the mouth. 

__________________
Runs with Chickens 
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Again I think I should start a thread for talking horse... 

deb 

__________________
I will get it done after coffee and before spring 

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## Alaskan (Aug 22, 2015)

Time warp!


Bwah haha ha ha!!!


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

When we were speaking about contact in the previous thread we were referring to bit contact. When you say contact in general conversation with any horse person, it is assumed that is what you mean. This is what I meant by contact. While it would be lovely to ride without any contact with the animal, I've yet to be able to master levitation and ESP lol! I ride off my horses face, if I'm in their mouth, I am correcting them. They see contact as correction and the release of contact praise, therefore they don't get confidence or balanced from it, and if I'm in their mouth for any length of time they're getting antsy and upset because they're being reprimanded without sense or reprieve - on the bit is not a place my horses or myself like to be.
Riding English is not work anymore than riding Western is work. I've trained in both, and in my humble opinion, there are a lot of unnecessary movements in English. I don't feel I should have to hold every body part of the horse together when I ride. I expect to teach the horse how to carry themselves when I ask for a movement and have the horse then know how to do it; if the horse's shoulder falls out, then I will fix it - I won't hold the shoulder in with every stride to prevent it from falling out. I think dressage is beautiful, don't get me wrong, it's just too much fussing for me. I'm a "set it and forget it" kind of rider. If the horse is performing well then they are left completely alone, I don't interfere.
You also don't have to change your seat with a spur stop; that was kind of the whole premise - it got the horse to tuck up and slow itself. If I wanted him to sit on his haunches and stop, Id then ask with my seat with both legs completely off.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I can't tell you how many people I've had to tell that you don't ride western with your feet on the dashboard, LOL. (when they were correcting me!) Then, to also tell them that you don't ride gaited horses that way anymore either (when they were correcting me). I don't tell people what to do. But I will tell them what I won't do. Balance is balance. 

It's always nice when a horse does what you ask and keeps doing it till you say stop. I like push button too. I only correct my horse if she stiffens her jaw. I think of contact as a communication. "Are you there?" "Yes I am". The lines of communication should be open both ways.


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

Thanks for moving the discussion over...


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

Fiere said:


> When we were speaking about contact in the previous thread we were referring to bit contact. When you say contact in general conversation with any horse person, it is assumed that is what you mean. This is what I meant by contact. While it would be lovely to ride without any contact with the animal, I've yet to be able to master levitation and ESP lol! I ride off my horses face, if I'm in their mouth, I am correcting them. They see contact as correction and the release of contact praise, therefore they don't get confidence or balanced from it, and if I'm in their mouth for any length of time they're getting antsy and upset because they're being reprimanded without sense or reprieve - on the bit is not a place my horses or myself like to be.
> Riding English is not work anymore than riding Western is work. I've trained in both, and in my humble opinion, there are a lot of unnecessary movements in English. I don't feel I should have to hold every body part of the horse together when I ride. I expect to teach the horse how to carry themselves when I ask for a movement and have the horse then know how to do it; if the horse's shoulder falls out, then I will fix it - I won't hold the shoulder in with every stride to prevent it from falling out. I think dressage is beautiful, don't get me wrong, it's just too much fussing for me. I'm a "set it and forget it" kind of rider. If the horse is performing well then they are left completely alone, I don't interfere.
> You also don't have to change your seat with a spur stop; that was kind of the whole premise - it got the horse to tuck up and slow itself. If I wanted him to sit on his haunches and stop, Id then ask with my seat with both legs completely off.


when I rode dressage 35 years ago the "big" trainer was Charles De Kunfy. German and taught at The Vienna Riding school... He was very much into bit contact... that influence caused the development of the dropped nose-band which I hate by the way.... and I hate the Crank even worse...

Contact for me is light with the mouth with adjustments for correction in body ideally teaching the horse to bending around a leg or moving away from a leg... Once you get that you can do pretty much anything. But those are exercises... Exercises to develop strength, flexibility, and lightness.

western is no different.

deb


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

*Regarding Bits*

I have seen incredible equestrians ride with a spade bit.. and listened to others tsk tsk tsk about it. What the Spanish knew and practiced is... That that horse is at Grand Prix level.. you dont put something like that in an uneducated mouth.

My cavelry training taught me if you have a problem with a bit.. put a lighter bit in the mouth... Then work on YOUR OWN skills. because its not really a bit problem its a rider problem.

Assuming the issue isn't with Fit, shape, or adjustment. I drove my Katee for a year or two only to find out her bit didn't fit correctly... A Snaffle only made her gap and wrinkle her nose in pain. The next mildest bit is a non jointed Snaffle... Mullen mouthed to fit her palette. Viola no more wrinkling her nose or gaping her mouth or bracing her neck and Jaw. My bad I didn't educate myself on her needs.

This picture is what made me realize it... I was doing a half halt trying to get her to settle down. She was ramped up because of the big show and all the hitch horses there. Hitch horses are the BIg Lick of the draft horse world. A draft horse friend took two pictures of us... the only two I have of us driving at Del Mar.










That is a short shanked Liverpool with a snaffle mouth piece.. Every time I tried to bring her down she got more difficult. Abuout three more strides and she did a Capriole... I dealt with it by cancelling the class I was supposed to go in and taking her for a long drive around the faigrounds.

after seeing this picutre My hunt went out for a six inch Mullen mouth snaffle, Liverpool, and Pelham... I switched out the liverpool and replaced the chain curbstrap with a leather one. Now I had control without hurting her... My girl is a bolter. So when I ride/rode after that I used the Pelham so I could ride with the snaffle part yet have the curb part ready in case I needed it.

Shes twenty one now and I still consider her green broke.

deb


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## Alaskan (Aug 22, 2015)

Katee sure is a looker! Pretty!


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

All my shanked bits are low port Mullen mouths with barrels, I absolutely love those bits! 

I train for push button horses that are extremely sensitive. Nothing I hate more than a horse that is dull in the mouth/sides (and most are made at way, not born, mores the pity). My fjord is as lazy and fat as all get out so riding him is like trying to make a train car do what it's told by saddling it LOL. Drives me right up the wall. My stbd was on game, he didn't tolerate fools and beginners could not even attempt to ride him off-line (in the cart though, children could drive him, oddly enough). My mare is super super sensitive and will do exactly what you ask of her - so much so that people who've ridden her don't realize they've asked her for something until she does it - makes her a good teacher as she will always let you know when you do something wrong - my 7 year old daughter is going to steal her on me haha.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

Katee is a looker. If I ever get a draft, it'll be a Percheron. Love everything about them (save the feed bill).


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## Alaskan (Aug 22, 2015)

Actually... Percherons are very easy keepers.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I use a very short shank curb, and a loose curb chain. So when the shanks are almost horizontal, it's just making contact. But my gf sees those almost horizontal shanks and insists that I am using too much pressure. 

Don't you just love that word "crank"? Like you need to crank their mouth shut to ride them?


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

Fiere said:


> Katee is a looker. If I ever get a draft, it'll be a Percheron. Love everything about them (save the feed bill).





Alaskan said:


> Actually... Percherons are very easy keepers.


light horses require 2.0 percent of their body wieght in forage
Draft horses require 1.5 percent of their body weight in forage

Katee is 1600 lbs when she is fit.... we were feeding her about thirty pounds of alfalfa per day. Right now I am free feeding her Bermuda.. She stays butter fat on it. Right now she is running about 2000 lbs. She gets one bale of bermuda every 3-4 days... our bales run 110 pounds.

I have had boarding facilities tell me they would have to charge more for a draft... ONe tried to extort more board from me because they thought she wasnt getting enough feed and that I had to supplement her feed with GRAIN. Then I moved to a big ranch that had facilities for more than 200 horses.

Cee Cee was an old hand at feeding... She laughed when I said what the other places had said... She was petting Katee at the time... "I have thoroughbreds that will out eat her..." It all has to do with fast twitch muscle and slow twitch muscle... All horses have each... just in different proportions.

This is southern California... Hot and dry they only need good forage and free choice of water and salt. I have never fed grain except as a treat or to mix supplementation with. Usually Oats and cracked corn with a little molassis in it. Katee only gets bran for supplements... She wuvvs her bran soup.... Starts smaking her lips when I start fixing it for her.

For what its worth Katee has A LOT of get up and go.

Fijords are pretty much small draft horses. Same slow twitch... but they will out walk anyone out on the trail. I had a friend who took her Fijords from Los Angeles to somewhere in the mouintains in UTAH. She does combined driving with them and when asked if they could keep up on the trail... She just laughed and said... we'll be fine.

Katee Whooping it up:










She was free longing around me in the arena....

deb


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> I use a very short shank curb, and a loose curb chain. So when the shanks are almost horizontal, it's just making contact. But my gf sees those almost horizontal shanks and insists that I am using too much pressure.
> 
> Don't you just love that word "crank"? Like you need to crank their mouth shut to ride them?


Yep... have you thought of using a curb strap? what I did for Katee was fit two small rings on either side to hook into the hooks on the bit.

I couldnt justifiy buying a leather premade one.. at about forty bucks.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

Yea that's a guideline I don't follow. A horse requires what a horse requires. My Fjord needs about 0.5% of his weight to stay porking fat. My standardbred needed about 5% to stay in good weight. My mare and mini need about 3%. Totally dependant on the horse. Some drafts are easy, some aren't, just like some horses are easy, some aren't. 

Seminole, curb bits put pressure all over the horses head, regardless of how tight the curb chain is. Horizontal shanks might barely be engaging contact with the chain but they are engaging a lot of contact on the bars and poll. I would agree totally with your gf. You shouldn't ever be putting that much pressure into a shank to turn them horizontal.

Fjords are small draft horses. They breed them now to be more sporty but it really depends on the lineage. My Fjord's highest calling would be in front of a plow, the poor old bugger. He weighs as much as your Percheron and he's 14.3.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

He has fat on his fat. Even on the starvation diet he's pushing 1300-1400lbs. Built like a dump truck!


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## Alaskan (Aug 22, 2015)

My little caspian could get obese on just a couple of weeks of grass... The percheron I think stayed just right on grass.

I then got a thoroughbred quarter horse cross.. What a mistake... He was a sweet lovely and well trained horse... But if you spit at him he got scratched up, he needed a heap of feed, as well as fancy feed just to keep him in good shape.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Fiere , to my gf, it may look like a lot. But to my hands it should feel more like a soft horse chewing with a soft jaw. A nice hand where she is actually stretched into the bit. A correction would be to close my fingers and release. I guess what I'm saying is that gf is focusing on the shanks of the bit. Not at the relaxed nodding gait with her ears bouncing , reaching under and tipping her hip, and keeping a nice regular 4 beat gait, and having a soft eye. And having impulsion that she keeps on her own. That's the whole picture she should look at. If I got in my horse's mouth, she would blow up . She's not a horse for someone with a heavy hand. Or annoying legs. My first horse was the same way. If I stiffened my hands or arms, he would flip around and that would be it for the day. I had to be soft with him. He was a jumper and I could not afford him flipping around between jumps.

So much for gf. She is a rider that rides more from a chair, LOL!

This is exactly the way I started training this year and my horse is responding very well to it. It's hard to put all this into words, so 6 minutes of video says it much better.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Fiere said:


> He has fat on his fat. Even on the starvation diet he's pushing 1300-1400lbs. Built like a dump truck!


What a chunk!!!!!


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

He's more than a chunk, he's a fluffy rhinoceros lol! 

I do understand what you mean. I just had this picture in my head of a horse going around with horizontal shanks and was thinking "oh boy that's a lot of force!". Curbs work the horse's whole head and jaw lever, very unlike a snaffle that just works the mouth without leverage, which is why you're not allowed to show in most western classes two handed if your horse is in a shank. For every inch of shank you increase the rein pressure, so 1lb of rein pressure can translate to 10lbs directly on the bars, pallet, chin and poll. When you think "horizontal shanks" in that light, you can understand why your eyes would bug out. Don't mind me! I see so many young horses ridden in direct contact two handed with a Tom Thumb my face is in a permanent twist LOL


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I've always considered the curb to my benefit. I don't have to work hard, LOL. Anything can be done just by moving a few fingers. The other thing is that if the horse's face is vertical, where are your shanks going to be? I also think that jointed plain snaffles are evil . I think they can make hard hands, and when holding the reins tightly, I think they bend and poke the horse's hard palette like a nutcracker.

I do hate seeing people hold their horse nose to chest using a curb. Like what's happening in dressage lately.

I think western riding contact is different than dressage contact in that western horses seem to know cues on a loose rein. 

Do you think you use your seat or balance/position more to communicate vs. a bit and reins?


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

If the horses face is vertical the shanks are also vertical. The horse will hold their head to carry the bit the most comfortably, which is hanging in their mouths and not on laying on their bars. 

I do use my seat a lot more. Reins are a back up plan. Obviously different in a green horse that needs more guidance but even then you ask with your seat, then your neck rein, then your direct rein in a snaffle or curb. Horse shouldn't be in a curb until they are able to do the movements in a snaffle. My reins are 8' long each, the horse would be stepping on them if I rode in contact lol. It's a lot different than english.

In English your curb is going to be like a Pelham which has like 3" shanks. Western is different; I use bits with up to 7" shanks, you pull those horizontal and the horse is going to feel it! I own one single jointed snaffle and it has a very heavy curve which prevents it from nutcrackering the mouth. Any single or double jointed bit will nutcracker unless the mouthpiece is curved. I won't use a jointed curb, there's just too much going on with a bit like that imo to warrant.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

See how little contact is required to pull my bit to an uncomfortable level for the horse? That's a low port Mullen mouth with 5" shanks, no break, just a roller in the middle so each side of the bit moves independently. Very mild curb, but it still does what it is designed to.









This is the rein length I use when I want to feel the horses mouth









I was giving my daughter a lesson in how to get my mare to tuck up and drop her head, this is the outline we look for, the reins are obviously not long enough as you can see the mares face screwing up in a knot lol. My kid isn't accomplished enough right now to effectively use split reins and barrel reins only come so long!


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> Fiere , to my gf, it may look like a lot. But to my hands it should feel more like a soft horse chewing with a soft jaw. A nice hand where she is actually stretched into the bit. A correction would be to close my fingers and release. I guess what I'm saying is that gf is focusing on the shanks of the bit. Not at the relaxed nodding gait with her ears bouncing , reaching under and tipping her hip, and keeping a nice regular 4 beat gait, and having a soft eye. And having impulsion that she keeps on her own. That's the whole picture she should look at. If I got in my horse's mouth, she would blow up . She's not a horse for someone with a heavy hand. Or annoying legs.  My first horse was the same way. If I stiffened my hands or arms, he would flip around and that would be it for the day. I had to be soft with him. He was a jumper and I could not afford him flipping around between jumps.
> 
> So much for gf. She is a rider that rides more from a chair, LOL!
> 
> This is exactly the way I started training this year and my horse is responding very well to it. It's hard to put all this into words, so 6 minutes of video says it much better.


Awesome video.... I am sharing this with my horse group.

deb


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I think the lady is awesome.. I have her 90 minute tape. Well worth the money. Deb, glad you liked it. 

Fiere, in the type of training I've done for the past years it's been like the video. If the horse makes contact with the bit, my hands immediately let go and the horse chews on the bit which increases saliva and softens the jaw which softens the neck while breaking at the poll which softens the back and allows the hind end to take on more weight or "collection" This method gives the horse an immediate reward. The philosophy is that a sort jaw must be learned first, which is MOL the opposite of modern dressage training.

I have always ridden in a 5 inch shank , a very low port, or a mullen mouth or grazing bit with swept back shanks. Always had the roller in the middle so the bit shanks can move separately. But I could not find one under $50 with less that 5 inch shanks. My goal is to work on the ring snaffle, so I have switched to a 4 inch Pelham with a different roller in the middle, but I have added snaffle reins and still have curb reins. My horse never learned in a snaffle, and has never been ridden in a snaffle except for one attempt. She did not understand it at all. So it's more or less having 2 sets of reins in the meantime. 

Those are awesome pictures and a beautiful horse. I think it's just about the same type of training where the horse goes softly and if not, bit pressure may be required but released as a reward or communicating that's what you want. She's not on a loose rein like yours. But contact like feeling a minnow moving on a fishing line. I can fee chewing and softness, but no more than that. I can feel if she gets stiff in the jaw, and my fingers will tighten and loosen or vibrate the rein until she softens again. 

You daughter looks sweet!

I think that hands matter more than a bit. With the way she goes with you, you could probably get away with using a bicycle chain-you ride softly. I think a lot of it is about being a correctly educated rider rather than a bully. You look like you have your horse in a very nice frame. It would not be that with someone who uses a bit more to control a horse vs. someone who communicates with a horse.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Prisma ridden by gaited trainer


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Friend on Prisma last year


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

This was taken about 4 years ago. My posture could have been better. I look kindof tense. I would haved liked her in a softer frame. However, she has a soft eye and her ears are a bit flopping which shows she's relaxed, but I don't think enough and it's me. Had she softened her jaw, and her neck, she would have been stepping under more (she's a Tennessee walker). BTW, she's not a TWH show horse with the big artificial movement, high neck, big shoes, etc. This is your average TWH, at a non show barn and barefoot like most here.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Love all the pictures!


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

Thank you, I like to think I have soft hands! It's nice to hear 
That bay in the top picture would bury you in the ground if you put excess pressure on his mouth, when I bought him I was told to ride him in a broken gag, which I did, as my thought process was we would start with what he was used to and with training move to something lighter. It was fine for around the barn but the first big trail ride we went on about a month after I got him, he was hot and I kept having to pull him back (he wasn't trained much for seat at that time). Anyway, he flipped - broke my pelvis, slipped two disks in my back, I have permanent muscle nerve and damage. Next time I rode him in the shank he is wearing and he took it like it was made for him. Softened right up, started to focus on my seat and legs, neck reined beautifully. But if you ever asked too much from the bit he'd remind you very quickly to get off his mouth. Did a lot for my hands. 
My mare could have the bit pulled clear through to her ears and not step out of line, but put too much contact on her and she opens her mouth like a shark and rides around like that - looks awful. So in her own way she also enforces soft hands. 

The training is roughly the same premise as what that video shows. I don't focus on a soft jaw so much as focusing on leaving them alone, but yeah, immediate reward for going forward softly. You want the horse on the bit, I want the horse off the bit. Same means to a different ends.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

OMG!!! Fiere, sounds like a terrible accident. How long ago was it? 

I think it's amazing that some horses make people excellent riders!

With gaited horses, the first one I saw in real life was mine when she got off the trailer. I was so excited she could have come off it with 3 legs and it wouldn't have mattered.
It took a while to understand slight differences in riding. Basic rider balance, and they do need some contact for their frame so they reach and dip their hip with each stride and get that overstep. 

What got me interested in hoof trimming was the first farrier I had with her. She had been delivered with 3 shoes, one high clubby foot and one low slipper foot. It took my farrier about a year to help those feet correct themselves. But he trimmed according to each individual hoof and eventually she ended up with a 2-3 degree difference, and that's been for 9 years now, and has never been trimmed to make each hoof look the same. 

I always felt there was something wrong with her hinds because the angles were equal to or less than the front angles. But it finally dawned on me that she's sickle hocked, and the angles will be lower.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

That happened 7-8 years ago now. 

She sounds like a "hi-low" horse. Most horses grow slightly more upright on their right front, but some the difference is quite dramatic. Usually these horses are called clubfooted but they aren't truly clubbed - and the issues always lie in trying to trim the hooves the same because since the hooves will never match it throws the whole horse off. Your farrier was a good one! 
One of my long time clients was a bad hi-low, and the farrier trimmed her for 12 years to have the same hoof, which through her off enough to have damage and arthritis in her shoulders. I trimmed her so everything was balanced - you could take a ruler to her hooves and they were perfectly matched in length from the coronet band to the end of the walls heel to heel, quarter to quarter, and toe to toe. The angles were quite different and therefore the feet looked a bit wonky together and it took a long time and frequent trimming schedule to really correct and get ahead of the offsetting growth, but she was balanced. There's quite a few horses like that out there, surprisingly.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

It's supposed to be very common in TWH. 

I was lucky. My first farrier in NY was really good, I had him for 19 years. He actually had a waiting list to be a customer. If he didn't get paid at time of service, he dropped them. But he could afford to be that way. Then I move to Florida and get this farrier who started drinking in the morning. But he was really good at what he did, LOL. From there it was downhill. Uneven heels, no heels, long toes, M-L imbalance, one tried to fix my horse's toeing out by making one side higher than the other. Thing was those toes starting turning out at the shoulder. I ended up hanging out with farriers online and reading, took a 5 day course, photos, etc, and did her myself. Because I didn't do it professionally, it took me a long time to trim one horse. So farriers do her again. But here we go ahead with the long toes, low heels, and forging. So I'll ask the barn owner to ask him to shorten the toes and raise the angle a bit. I feel like I should not have to tell anyone anything. 

It's not an easy job by any means.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

Sometimes you do have to tell the farrier things. We're not there all the time. What works for one horse might not work for the next and the owners need to tell us if the corrections we make don't work long term. Some stuff of course is fundamental knowledge and it boggles your mind, and some folks just learned a certain way so they trim that way until told differently. 

I had one (newly working) farrier come trim my horses when I had to get MRIs on my back and was off work for a few months. She fought tooth and nail that she would not take the heels back to where I wanted them because she didn't want to bow their tendons. She was taught to trim in a box shape and the concept of "cutting the horses heels off" was so foreign she refused to do it. She didn't understand that you would even out the whole foot so the angles would be correct. I assured her a million times the horse would be fine and then I trimmed one foot on my gelding and said "I just want them like that". I felt bad because she probably thought I was the client from hell but she seriously didn't know any better than what she was taught. Sometimes it's a bane to be trained in something because no one else will ever do it the way you want but you LOL.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

True. I hung out with a group of farriers that kept their education up. 
One did say long ago that TWH were always a compromise of bringing their heels back or preserving a healthy angle. Yea, mine too. Right or wrong, I always started trimming the walls at the toe and the heels last so I could work with the angle vs forward run heels. But since I did her every 5 weeks, and backed her toes up , her heels worked their way back all by themselves.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

The toe drags the heel forward, so you did right by keeping the toe backed up. 
I'm not overly concerned with angles. Trimming to promote a short upright heel and a well rounded toe will inadvertently put the angles into the perimeters you want anyway, but since every horse is different I don't focus so much on it - if the hoof is healthy and functioning well and the horse is balanced and sound, it's all good in my books.


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

I am loving being a bug on a wall for this conversation... I have had two farriers that did right by my girl. The last two... Danny Brown is Certified and Very familiar with Draft horse feet and the fact that they really dont need special stuff unless they are shod. and then the shoeing is for work and the shoes are different because of their weight.

Then Johnny Acosta... his dad taught him and does trimming because he just loves horses. To top it off his trims are as good if not better than Dannys... because he doesnt mess with what is working for the horse.

I was one of those who had a gelding that my farrier said had a club foot. Back when I was about 22 thirty eight years ago. WE did trims ever four weeks and shoes on the front for my then 1.5 year old colt. He had one foot that was wider and rounder than the other.... Never took a lame or unbalanced step...

deb


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I think timely trims do help a hi-lo be the best it can be. 
Fiere, I don't use the gauge either to trim by. What I did use it for was to make a note of what I did.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Last night I looked up dressage in Aachen Germany and the tickets are 20-40 euros. I don't think that's bad. It's a lot more here. And a seat at baseball is a lot more too.

But the flight round trip is 2k. I do have a cousin to stay with. I'd think of going in July 2016. It takes 14 hours to get there. Blah. I wonder if I could fall asleep on a plane.


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## Alaskan (Aug 22, 2015)

Germany has my favorite food of all time!!!!!! Ag! The FOOD!!!!!!

(Depends where though... I prefer Spetzel country, or Knödel country.....)


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

Would love to go to Germany. A friend of mine has travelled abroad a few times now and always goes to that Vienna school or whatever it's called that looks more like a palace than a stable where they train the Lipizzaner. Gorgeous!


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## Alaskan (Aug 22, 2015)

That must be the most wonderful thing to get to watch!


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Al, the word is Ach! LOL. I have family there and my cousin is my age and a dressage nut. When my daughter came to visit this summer (with grandkids and her hubby too) she said "Mom you used to make German potato pancakes and they were the best of any she's had. " Of course, after not cooking for about 10 years, we made German potato pancakes. 10 pounds of potatoes. A Cuisinart, egg, ONions, flour, salt, and LOTs of pepper. Of 10 pounds, about 10 pancakes were left over, (eaten cold). 

I used to make lots of German food because I was married to a German and lived in Germany. Knodels, schnitzel, brats, etc. 
I never made spetzele.

I dream of going on one of those Viking river cruises on the Danube. On my Bucket list!

That Spanish riding school must be awesome


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

Yes,she posts pictures on FB that'd make you green with jealousy. Breathtaking.

I make potato pancakes and corned beef as a meal every so often. Latkas we call them (same recipe as yours lol). My great aunt married into a polish family and was a wicked cook, she taught us a lot of European recipes that she learned from her mother-in-law. Every Christmas I make pierogi, usually just potato and sharp cheese (sometimes bacon) but my husband likes me to add sauerkraut to his (gag). 

My family is Irish so I am very partial to meat/fish/root vegetables, heavily brined. I was raised on salt fish, salt beef, salt pork, potatoes, turnip, rye bread and canned peas. The sodium content in my blood would rival the Dead Sea, I'm sure of it lol.


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

Alaskan said:


> That must be the most wonderful thing to get to watch!


HOrse shows in General in Europe draw crowds equivalent to baseball games here.

Dressage will have a full stadium especially the upper divisions... And it will be on TV too. We never see horse shows here on mainstream TV. you might get something on Cable but it will be more like REining and Hunter Jumper stuff.

deb


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Deb you are absolutely right. It would be nice to get some Dressage competition on TV. But usually people post them on You Tube pretty quickly. I had gotten the whole Olympic dressage stuff live on You Tube. Can't remember if I had to pay for it.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

We see jumping frequently on tv, then the Calgary stampede is broadcast every year and dressage during the Olympics, I've never seen reining on, though. Id love that, be the only sport Id ever watch lol.


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

Fiere said:


> We see jumping frequently on tv, then the Calgary stampede is broadcast every year and dressage during the Olympics, I've never seen reining on, though. Id love that, be the only sport Id ever watch lol.


Do you get RFD-TV? I spent one whole summer watching of all things.... Cattle auctions.... LOL.

But There are alot of horse shows on there... Breed documentaries, Trainer episodes etc.

I dont have Dish network any more. But these days Youtube is filling all those specialized shows.

deb


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Anyone ever have the pleasure of dealing with rain rot? Max developed it. I did all the things I was supposed to do to get rid of it, the antifungals, someone recommended Listerine, and something else that I don't remember now. 

After years of fighting it I finally got rid of it and not in the way anyone said it was possible. I groomed him everyday. When I came across patches that wouldn't brush out I put mineral oil on the patch and after grooming the rest of him would go back and remove the patch after it softened. A few months later he was totally clear.


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

robin416 said:


> Anyone ever have the pleasure of dealing with rain rot? Max developed it. I did all the things I was supposed to do to get rid of it, the antifungals, someone recommended Listerine, and something else that I don't remember now.
> 
> After years of fighting it I finally got rid of it and not in the way anyone said it was possible. I groomed him everyday. When I came across patches that wouldn't brush out I put mineral oil on the patch and after grooming the rest of him would go back and remove the patch after it softened. A few months later he was totally clear.


Awesome job. I hear its pretty nasty if you cant get it stopped.

Not enough rain here to cause it but I had a mare that developed the type of scarring that looks like rain rot scars. White patterning. it was a whiteish waxy stuff that developed at the roots of the hair... when I scrubbed it out the hair came with it... and grew in white. Kind of like the same stuff you find on back legs down low....

deb


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## Alaskan (Aug 22, 2015)

I had a couple of spots on one horse Shriners made it go away pretty quickly.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

perchiegirl said:


> Do you get RFD-TV? I spent one whole summer watching of all things.... Cattle auctions.... LOL.
> 
> But There are alot of horse shows on there... Breed documentaries, Trainer episodes etc.
> 
> ...


I love RFD-TV, and I gotta be honest, I also enjoy watching the cattle and bucking stock auctions..


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Too funny. I don't think I have RFD. I love watching You Tube tho. I watched it 2 nights ago to find out how to vaccinate for pox.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

I don't think we have rfd... I'm in Canada so I don't know of that makes a difference? Maybe if we had a satellite.

Brown listerine works sometimes, it burns though so you need to put it on at the right time. I use a mix of antifungal, antibacterial, and zinc oxide ointments for spot treatments. My mare breaks put in full body rain rot at a certain time of year during her auto-immune cycles - I give her a bath with an antifungal shampoo and work the scabs out in the warm lather, then rinse, then do another rinse with tea tree oil and let that dry on her. Works after one or two applications.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I wonder if there are supplements that would help with that?


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

Nope, it's caused by her disorder. I start her on steroids early spring and that helps a bit but it's just keeping her immune system from crashing more so than curing the problem. 

If she were a normal horse I'm sure there'd be a supplement to help. A kelp or probiotic or something.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I know someone will understand this , Fiere. An ex friend asked me about a hoof last week. From what I could see, there was proper hoof growing out of the top to about half way down. Then the lower half was at a lower angle. I said I think it looks like flare probably because you switched farriers and the new one is growing the hoof out at the correct angle. I said what I would do is rasp the flare down maybe over 2 cycles.

She asks me about how I can say that the top half is growing at the correct angle, and I said the wall coming out is following the coffin bone. (I am not talking about chronic cases, just the average horse). 

So she tells me I'm wrong and I don't know what I'm talking about!!! Then she sends me pictures via Facebook , x rays of a founder marked up with angles to show me why I'm wrong. (That's when I ended the friendship, I've had 6 years of her telling me how wrong I am. The original conversation was about how the horse grows hoof wall to match the angle of the coffin bone , and why the bottom half doesn't in this case. So she sends me x rays of a founder to show me that hoof wall doesn't grow out with the same angle as a coffin bone. So she's right and I'm wrong,LOL. In fact she said it's making her mad that I don't acknowledge her as being right. 

I love my chickens. More and more every day.


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> I know someone will understand this , Fiere. An ex friend asked me about a hoof last week. From what I could see, there was proper hoof growing out of the top to about half way down. Then the lower half was at a lower angle. I said I think it looks like flare probably because you switched farriers and the new one is growing the hoof out at the correct angle. I said what I would do is rasp the flare down maybe over 2 cycles.
> 
> She asks me about how I can say that the top half is growing at the correct angle, and I said the wall coming out is following the coffin bone. (I am not talking about chronic cases, just the average horse).
> 
> ...


I hear your pain.... When someone asks your opinion at least have the curtesy of listening and trying to understand....

I could never be a farrier personality wise.

But think about it... new growth growing at the correct angle... old growth growing at an incorrect angle. Unless she had exrays of her own horse rather than arm chair quarter backing... but she didnt.

urrrggg

deb


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Like my farrier friends and the barn owner tell her "stay off the internet!". 
Founder was never the subject, flare was. And most farriers rasp it away. I had replied to her that the new growth at the top was the correct angle, at the bottom it was distorted by flare. 

She said I was wrong and didn't know what I was talking about because I said that new growth follows the shape of the coffin bone. 

Then she said I was making her angry because I didn't see she was right. 

Friends don't talk like that. I don't argue with people. I walk away. If someone asks for my opinion, they hear it X1. I'll have a discussion about it but not about whos right or wrong . 

She has done this stuff for the 6 years I've known her but I've had enough now. I personally think she resents me for any knowledge I may have that I don't talk about. She always asks me questions that she has a ready answer for, but disguises it to sound like she's looking for information , but it's not.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

Woman sounds like a nut. "You're making me angry because you don't accept I'm right" - no honey, you're making you angry because you throw a tantrum when the world doesn't revolve around you.

And no, it wouldn't matter if she had x-rays of her horse or any horse; if the hoof wall isn't following the coffin bone there's something wrong. Either there is separation of the laminae or a rotation in the coffin bone and potentially both.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I just read this thing about a weed in Florida called Creeping Indigo, which grows in pastures and horses show neuro signs among other symptoms. Chances are good that they die. I looked at this map and it shows that a few pastures near me have been positive for it. I'll have to go check the pastures when I get back.


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> I just read this thing about a weed in Florida called Creeping Indigo, which grows in pastures and horses show neuro signs among other symptoms. Chances are good that they die. I looked at this map and it shows that a few pastures near me have been positive for it. I'll have to go check the pastures when I get back.


I have Loco Weed on my property.... If they dont develope a taste for it they recover but it causes all sorts of neurological problems.

deb


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## Alaskan (Aug 22, 2015)

Like crazy ones...


I thought it was super wild when I learned about it. 

The horse will see a crack in the ground and think it is the grand canyon... So Loco!


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

Alaskan said:


> Like crazy ones...
> 
> I thought it was super wild when I learned about it.
> 
> The horse will see a crack in the ground and think it is the grand canyon... So Loco!


Its because their eyesight is so wierd.

deb


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I read it was one of things that got away from UF. I'm anxious to get home and see if there's any in the pastures. But I think they have to eat pounds of it per day.


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## zamora (May 26, 2015)

Alaskan said:


> The horse will see a crack in the ground and think it is the grand canyon... So Loco!


I was at a *MAJOR* TWH show in Los Angeles years ago and one of their fun classes was a barrel race. I literally wet my pants laughing at these animals because every single one of them thought the chalk 'starting line' was a jump and jumped over it. It would have been quite funny if it was two or three horses but I think the class had about 30 entered and every. single. one. jumped that line.


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

I have a picture somewhere of my mare doing barrels.... What a hoot she even changed leads.... She was never trained for lead changes... Oh boy she thought she was going sooo fast too... well she was for a draft horse.

deb


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I did barrels once on a friend's horse and it scared the crap out of me.

The other great moment was when Gravedigger , world record speed racker, was at one of our backyard shows for fun and I took my walker in the ring with him to compete so I could always say I competed against him even tho there was 3 in the ring and I'm in no way a speed racker.

I did used to let her just go real fast pacing, and me and her were pretend ding we were just by ourselves. Of course the ex friend told me to stop because it didn't look good. (Who cares?) 

I think a lot of ex friend's problem was that her horse was more than capable of running walk and racking, and she was afraid of him so she kept on making him seem like he had problems. (Back, hock, shoe, saddle -yearly saddle's fault.) She needed to stop telling me what I'm doing wrong and just ride her darn horse. Then I get on her horse and I can ride him well, but that annoyed her I think. Well no more of that.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

I have a lot of friends who do the barrel circuit, I wouldn't dare ride one of their horses. Id end up on the ground before I tripped the timer hahaha. 
I barrel raced my mare at a fun show this year and the only reason we did not get last place is because someone entered a cow. We would've had a much faster time had she gone to third barrel instead of veering back to the the gate but it wouldn't of bumped us up any higher in the standings - the fastest horses were getting high 16s and we got a 53.4 second run - good ole western pleasure mare 

I did buy my standardbred as a barrel prospect but after our wreck it really wasn't my thing anymore, I'll stick to my pleasure/reining prospects.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Is reining where you single out a calf and the horse keeps him separate? I do have to say that there is a mighty lot of self carriage and work off the haunches and a whole lot more that could seem like dressage but the horse is trained to carry himself. Kind of like dressage for the working horse. The movements are the same but used for a purpose.


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

I believe thats cutting. Reining is when you do a pattern with your horse.

deb


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Ok . So I love cutting!


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## Alaskan (Aug 22, 2015)

It is really fun to watch the horses that do all of the cutting work without a rider on their back!! 

Pretty neat!


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

Reining is taking all those movements you would use to cut, making them more flamboyant and putting it to a pattern. Reining is the western equivalent to dressage, really. Not to be confused with western dressage which is dressage movements in a western saddle, reining is cow horse movements. Dressage is Calvary drills.

Cutting is mostly done by the horse. Watch closely at a cutting competition, the rider puts the horse where it needs to be and then hangs on without interfering with the horse. A cutting horse will cut, they don't need a rider. It is absolutely not like dressage lol. The training involved goes to make the horse stronger and faster, more on cue to the cows, enhancing the natural ability. You can cut with a horse with no cow sense but it's chasing cows around at that point, cutting horses need to be able to work a cow on instinct - you can't train that ability.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Well from what I've seen in cutting, it seems that there were many many things that western riding is that were based on "dressage" at the beginning of when the Spanish came over with their horses. Only western riding developed into working . But it all comes from a horses natural movements being replicated with cues (except changing lead every stride), but still had to change leads. 

I have been getting deeper and deeper into classical dressage, where the goal is to teach the horse self carriage, and more as western does , with almost invisible cues and no yanking on the rein, and having a looser rein teaching the horse to carry himself. 

Sport dressage "claim it's about self carriage, collection, etc. But I watch the bravest, LOL, come up the center line at the end with holding the reins in one hand to show that the horse has self carriage. Not. Looks like in general, if they loosened the reins the horse would fall apart. In classical and in western, it's about teaching self carriage because the working horse has the freedom to collect to do the task. It comes on it's own. I think cutting is the epitomy of what classical and western is about. A horse that collects working off his hind end and free up his front end without the rider having to hold them together.

I think the biggest difference between dressage horses and working horses is that in dressage, those horses are longer strided, bigger, and more "floaty". They are also capable of being pushed and not breaking into a canter. Western horses are generally needed to be shorter, and shorter strider for speed and tasks. There are some silly western people that have to have a 16 hand horse do barrels , and the horse eventually pays the price.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

I understand what you mean, and Id agree if we were talking about anything but cow sense. It is not all about dressage coming first, I've watched my standardbred do a beautiful training level piaffe in the pasture countless times - I can certainly not say those movements were based on his dressage training haha. Any similarities drawn between cutting and dressage are based on the horses natural movement. A good cutting horse is made of how much ability that horse has to cut cows without a rider - that is not trained. It's refined, sure, because you obviously want your horse to be able to work light and with impulsion from the hindquarters, but there's a reason why quarter horses cut and Hanoverians do not, and it has nothing to do with build and everything to do with instinct. Really watch a cutting horse work, watch the rider, the cues truly aren't there. The rider shows the horse the cow, and the horse cuts it. The rider basically drops the reins and holds the horn. There's a good video on YouTube where a dressage rider swaps horses and is trying to cut a cow - the rider tries to tell the horse where to go and is hindering the horse so bad the horse just gives up because it can't work with the rider trying to give cues. When he first starts to cut she almost comes off him, because he's moving without her. That's how a cutting horse should work, the rider just needs to keep with it and not interfere. 

The barn I trained at when I was a young pup had a "steer" on a pulley system that ran the length of the arena, you could turn a bunch of long yearlings out and start running that "steer" back and forth and the cowy yearlings would try their darnedest to cut it. None of these colts had ever seen a live cow before, and they were only halter broke at that age, but like wiggling a string in front of a kitten, their reaction is to get low and go. 

Same with a barrel horse, it either has it or it doesn't. A bigger horse definitely have a harder time getting into the pocket than a shorter horse, but that's stride and body length. You'll never make a 14 hand Bulldog of a QH who is into a 1D barrel horse if it doesn't have the will to do so, even though he may be entirely suited for it at a glance. I see just as many 16hh nags who have the heart to boogie and that is what they do, what they lack in the pocket they make up for in the straightaways. A good horse can be any size or shape, just have to find what works for them. That's my logic anyway.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

This is what I love about cutting, the horse is free to work to the top of his ability. This rider doesn't even have both reins in his hand, he's got his legs off, hand on the horses neck to give him freedom of rein, and he's holding on tight to that horn to stabilize himself. He's just staying with the horse and watching the steer move so he can anticipate how to best move his own body to match the horse's movement as the horse goes after the cow. I think is awesome!


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I agree totally with all you are saying. Dressage in the general sense means training of horse and rider-taking their natural abilities and working from there. I didn't mean western riding derives from dressage but from natural movement. Which means to me that it's not the only style of riding that stems from dressage, but stems from what a horse does at liberty. I think they are all off shoots from natural horse movement including dressage.

I think you clarified what I mean, LOL. I agree that a cutting horse has to have the build and importantly, the mental aptitude towards cutting. 

Have you heard that there's a difference between fast firing muscles/nerves and slower that make a horse better at one thing or another?

I've seen the pulley system. Really cool. Have you ever been on a cutting horse?

I think horses in a field can do beautiful movements in a field like passage and piaffe without any training. It's natural movement, I agree, as well as lengthening and collecting, piroettes (sp), lateral movements for any horse. It looks like a cutter can do all of this just with natural ability, without interference. I love that part.

I do think western riding interferes less with what a horse is inclined to do naturally. I don't think snooty dressage people give western the respect for the movements they do, it's the same movements, just western looks geared towards a working horse.

Right now I'm working on a piaffe and passage on my gaited horse. What ever any horse can do at a walk or canter , can be done by a gaited horse. Mine was born with an innate ability to do a piaffe. Easy to build on. And fun.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

I think it's when you have a horse who doesn't have the desire/natural ability to do something and try to force it to that is the worst. Some horses will never be great at some disciplines, but still have the desire to do what they're able. I hate seeing people forcing every ounce out of a horse who just doesn't want to do it. You see it a lot with barrel horses, either they're sour being forced to do something they hate or have grown to hate something they like. I've seen more than a few horses switch owners and become absolute gems or absolute pukes just due to riding style differences. But getting a horse who has no want or ability to do a job and trying and trying and trying to make that horse do that job is zero fun for the horse or the rider - I don't know why people do it.

I've played with cowy horses on the pulley but never ridden a true cutting horse. It's on the bucket list! My standardbred was surprising "cowy" in the sense that once he figured out what I wanted him to do, he'd do it, so we played 'corner the pony' sometimes lol. He had no instinct to chase a cow but he had a blast chasing the pony, and would do some pretty cool (albeit sloppy) maneuvers to run him down. The pony got a kick out of it, too, and would chase the stbd just as much. Closest I've come to cutting a live animal lol.

And yes, I have heard of the fast fire/slow fire muscles. My mare, for example, simply sucks at any speed event. She is a slow reactor and moves deliberately and precisely. At a full gallop she looks like a deer in slow motion, haha the poor thing.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I think it's just fun to pretend. Years ago this man rented a bunch of calves for people to come let their horses play pen the calf. I watched but what fun.


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## zamora (May 26, 2015)

Reining video of Stacy Westfall's bridleless ride in 2006. THIS is horsemanship.






2014 Calgary Stampede cutting Champion (although I have seen better)

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search...t=iry&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003&type=blfnt_f2


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Wow! It's just amazing!


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

That's reining 
Love watching Stacy's freestyle rides. She's got a gift for sure.


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## zamora (May 26, 2015)

Back in the old days when I was still limber enough to ride, my husband and I tried team penning just for grins and boy did we have a blast! Easily the most fun I have ever had on horseback!


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

zamora said:


> Back in the old days when I was still limber enough to ride, my husband and I tried team penning just for grins and boy did we have a blast! Easily the most fun I have ever had on horseback!


I used to day dream about doing team penning with Katee. I think she would have loved it. Baby girl can do a sliding stop..... and a roll back on the fence...

bwhahahahah


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Zamora, that sounds like a blast. Sigh, one day.

What do you call a boarding place that only pasture boards? I can't call it the barn. How bout the farm?


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## perchiegirl (Aug 22, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> Zamora, that sounds like a blast. Sigh, one day.
> 
> What do you call a boarding place that only pasture boards? I can't call it the barn. How bout the farm?


INteresting thought .... I have never boarded at a barn... but have always called it either the barn or the ranch.

24 x 24 pipe corral is the standard here... Oh there are barns but the board for them is exorbitant...

for 300 average you get a 24 x 24 pipe corral with a sun shelter and automatic waterer two maybe three meals a day and the corral cleaned every day.

For about 600 a month you get a 12 x 12 box stall and of course you get the automatic waterer stall cleaning and two to three meals per day. And Some places even have a twelve by twenty four pipe corral on the outside so your horse can get some sunshine...

Oh did I mention there is no pasture here zip nada... because there is no rain. Turnout for your horse is up to you and when you can acquire time in an arena... you have to be there to retrieve em though after an hour... most turnout areas have a time limit.

And land is at a premium so most boarding facilities will have more than a hundred horses. Best one I boarded at had space for two hundred horses. A Class A driving arena with lights for night shows, a Jumping arena, a cutting arena, a western arena... No lunging in the western arena... three round pens one with plywood walls. a Cross country arena and a cutting horse automatic cow... what a hoot that was... Then there were two pens that were for a maximum of four horses together. One private barn put in by a Dentist. and a park area where the trail course was.... The stallions got put in the barn where they could watch the western pleasure on one side and the trail course on the other. There was trail access out the back for some nice rides in the riverbed... I used to be able to drive my cart out there but a nasty neighbor fenced it off.

Oh and they had a hot walker two port-a-potties two fixed wash racks And a row of tack sheds we called skid row. All built by boarders and sold to the next owner I was given a big one by a friend and could get my cart inside...

All on seventeen acres... less land than I own now.

So if she charged 400 each averaging out board... her income per month gross was 60,000 dollars. She went through a semi tractor load of hay per month... and San Diego requires all manure to be removed from the premises .... Which was a good thing... the manure pile used to spontaneously combust every time it rained.
deb


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

We got pasture board, a few acres for a few horses and 28 horses, at $325 a horse. Full care without a stall. A ring with jumps and a dressage ring. There's a wonderful grass canal a mile away that runs for 6 miles, and has about 25-30 feet of grass on each side flat and great to ride on. It's got a few curves, and the horses love it because they can see so far. Horses allowed.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Here's some pics, gotta find some better ones of the property.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

I get pasture board with turnout in paddocks and pasture, hay 5x a day, feed 3x a day, blankets on/off depending on weather, automatic heated waters, and indoor and outdoor arena for 290$ a month. 
For a 12x12 stall with daily turnout and everything above included it's 400$ a month.
There's miles of trails, spot to ride on the beach, full cross country course (if that's your thing lol) with 30-40 jumps and water features, and it's at the base of the highlands so the views are gorgeous. It's an eventing barn so the arenas are standard dressage size with footing for stadium jumping, so not ideal if I had a Reiner but perfect for my little WP mare.

Most in the area offer half of this for 400-500$ a month.

A picture of the view and the top paddock:


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

seminolewind said:


> Here's some pics, gotta find some better ones of the property.


Love those big old trees! And that paint looks like my mares dam, very nice looking horse from what I can see of it.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Beautiful paint! And wow, I see water in the background. How nice. You must have beautiful trails around you.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Yeah!!! Trail ride on canal tomorrow. I will bring my camera.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

More pics of horse farm


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Just got a warning about sentinel chickens being positive for West Nile virus.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Well I got out to the farm today, ended up watching yearling sales for harness racing. Some may come down here. 

I met the new border. Very nice and has a big red Tennessee walker. Yea! Someone to go canal riding with. So I cleaned my tack and my hands smell so good from the leder balsam. Hope to get out and ride on friday.


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## zamora (May 26, 2015)

**snif, snif** I miss my horses SO much!


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

zamora said:


> **snif, snif** I miss my horses SO much!


I am amazed at the amount of people who own horses and would love someone to ride them. The farm I'm at is full of them.


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

I wish I were closer, I'd love to ride. I have the room for a horse but it's not fenced and I don't have a barn.


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## Alaskan (Aug 22, 2015)

I loved our horses, and I miss them on occasion, but I am SUPER happy that they are gone, and I never wanted anyone else to ride them.

Other people riding your horses can also give your horses all sorts of bad habits. I really liked knowing my horses inside and out. No surprises.

I do however, love no longer having to feed them... Or all of that water hauling... ...

The older I get the less money I have -screaming face-


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

I hear you! My horses knew my deepest secrets. I could set on or lay on them with no saddle or bridle which I did at night mostly and just look at God's creation for hours. I was probably 16 or so in this pix.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

That is the sweetest picture!!!!

I always felt that way too about others riding my horse. Until a trainer told me that horses are easy to re adjust. So I let people ride my horse. They need to know how to ride. And they have to stay off my horse's face. So far, I have had no problems.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Yesterday I had a really nice little ride. I have a gaited horse , and correct is to hear 4 equal hoof beats at any speed. She was so consistant yesterday.

I'm meeting a new friend for a ride in a field today unless the traffic for the corn maze is gone and we can get to the canal.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Here's a few pictures of the canal. The deep part is about 20 feet deep with slanted sides.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Interesting history on that canal. It's 6.5 miles long. In the 50's that whole area was chicken farms and they kept getting flooded by the rainfall here. So they built this canal. There's hardly ever any water in it. And if there is in some spots after days of rain, it gets about 3 feet deep and we take the horses in there and they love it.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Well so far I've ridden the canal 3 times in the last 2 weeks. Just beautiful! I was on my way to the horses this morning and hit rain and went anyway. Got there and we were deciding if we should go, and I asked if anyone afraid to get their saddle wet . Nope . So we went and it was a wonderful ride.


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## SuzieAuvergne (Dec 9, 2015)

I hope I have now found out how to upload...here goes


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## 8hensalaying (Jun 5, 2015)

Beautiful horses Suzie!


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## zamora (May 26, 2015)

Gorgeous horses? What breeds are they?


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## zamora (May 26, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> I am amazed at the amount of people who own horses and would love someone to ride them. The farm I'm at is full of them.


I have a friend that only lives a couple of miles from me and she has two horses I could ride any time I want. That's not the point, I miss MY horses. I knew them inside and out and they knew me. I rode my mare without ever touching the reins, she was so used to my body language I didn't need them for any reason. My gelding was my baby that I rescued from a PMU farm and it was like he knew he was rescued from certain death. He and I were always in sync. I could move his feet by simply pointing to them, my farrier loved that. Any other horses just aren't the same.


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## SuzieAuvergne (Dec 9, 2015)

*My Horses*

Kiola..the bay mare is a registered French Trotter

Number One...the chestnut is? The breeder was not entitled to state the name of his sire...as the stallion managed to get into the enclosure with the mare...

Yes, French registration law is quite complex...!


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Zamora, I know what you mean. That's having a good mind. A horse that likes being in-sinc with their employee, LOL

Suzie, is a French Trotter like a Tennessee walking horse? That's what I have. Registration laws have become more complicated for upper priced horses. Mine was not the price of a house, but she did come with DNA profile.

I hope you post pictures, I can't picture how you have your animals. Do you ride?

My horse is gaited, but I have a dressage background. And I've recently been studying about Racinet and classical riding . And to my delight, she does a wonderful shoulder in, and we are working on a counted walk and some small steps of piaffe on a fairly loose rein.


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## SuzieAuvergne (Dec 9, 2015)

*French Trotter*

Hi Seminolewind...

The French Trotter is specific to France

Their gait is diagonal two beat..they originated in Normandy, France and are used specifically for trotting racing here...

I have no in depth knowledge of the Tennessee Walker...Kiola du Michalet is highly strung and she is certainly not a novice ride...she is poetry in motion when she displays her natural traits...tail held high and she gallops like a dream...a true thoroughbred and I do so love her..she has spirit that is so like me..freedom and expression...! What more can I say about my wonderful girl?

I started riding when I was three years of age...I grew up riding and it is my true love..shetland, then ponies and eventually horses...hunters and polo ponies...they are truly what makes me satisfied and they are my ultimate dream..I have found myself living my dream...I could not ask for more from life!


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Sounds like you have beautiful horses. So a French trotter is probably like a Standardbred here, but ours come out trotting or pacing.

My Tennessee walker is a horse that keeps a 4 beat walk step no matter what the speed. They are famous for being a smooth gaited horse that is comfortable to ride.


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## SuzieAuvergne (Dec 9, 2015)

You are correct seminolewind...the standardbred was introduced to France to enhance the pace of the French trotter...!

France decided to abolish ALL other breeds from the world at one point and concentrate on the French trotter ( bearing in mind that they had already introduced the standardbred from the U.S.A. and the thoroughbred from the U.K.) so in effect they had other breeds that were already in the "mix"...crazy or what ?

As an aside..I have never heard of Racinet...I am intrigued...please tell me more...

I noticed in your above photographs that there is apparently no mane for a few inches behind the poll of the horse...I have seen this before in photographs from the U.S.A. is this a breed phenomenon ?


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

The few inches of clipped mane are a hallmark of Tennessee Walkers. So is the tail on the ground.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

It's all about French Classical riding. As taught by Baucher to Jean-Claude Racinet. This video explains it very well. Horses like it, no kicking, no pulling. All require one thing to start and continue: the horse must be chewing on the bit that shows that his has loosened his jaw which is said to be the cause of all stiffness .


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## zamora (May 26, 2015)

This is a picture of my Belgian x Percheron when he was still intact. It's the only photo I have of me actually ON him.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Oh wow, what a tanker. I like him. Is that a dressage saddle you're sitting in?


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## SuzieAuvergne (Dec 9, 2015)

zamora...

He is absolutely gorgeous! The Percheron is quite prolific in this area...they are used mainly for display of their strength pulling heavy equipment..I see you have a European saddle...complete with iron stirrups...looks as though you are using a French type bit too..

I have given some thought to buying a Percheron...maybe one day I will...( in my dreams )


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## zamora (May 26, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> Oh wow, what a tanker. I like him. Is that a dressage saddle you're sitting in?


Thanks, he was a sexy devil. It's a Wintec AP with the adjustable panels, it fit him really well. A lot of drafts are really wide backed but he looked like it but wasn't actually all that wide. His rear was massive though! I like big butts, I cannot lie. 

He and I when he was just a two year old (and very dirty).


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

He's so big and beautiful!


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Boy , I should have seen this coming. I go to Chronicle of the Horse and read the dressage posts. I was dumb enough to ask a question and the whole thing took a wrong turn and it became a mud slinging argument about Classical (French) dressage and competition dressage. Of course I'm the slingee this time. These ladies on there are really mean and twist what I say or tell me I'm confused, or misinformed. You know people who find one thing a person has said and that's the only thing they dwell on over and over. There are a bunch of women over there who think they know about everything only they don't, but they argue what they "know" anyway. And the rest is trickery.


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## zamora (May 26, 2015)

seminolewind, I know this is the chicken forum but at COTH it is an all-out hen party. You couldn't pay me enough to ever log back in there. I absolutely love riding, training and just BREATHING in horses but *that* forum and *those* people....ugh.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

zamora said:


> seminolewind, I know this is the chicken forum but at COTH it is an all-out hen party. You couldn't pay me enough to ever log back in there. I absolutely love riding, training and just BREATHING in horses but *that* forum and *those* people....ugh.


 LOL!!! Yea it is a hen party, good way of putting it. I normally have gone there to keep up with what the Olympic quality riders are up to. Occassionally an interesting article.

I normally don't post and don't get involved because there is so much bickering that my post wouldn't be noticed any way. It's not even lively debate, it's actually mud slinging and attack.


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## SuzieAuvergne (Dec 9, 2015)

seminolewind...

Well that is one site I will not visit...thanks for the warning of what the " hen party " are like at COTH... you have probably forgotten more than they will ever know about true Dressage...

Nothing worse than a closed mind...


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## zamora (May 26, 2015)

SuzieAuvergne said:


> Nothing worse than a closed mind...


THIS. Right here. The minute your mind closes, you are finished learning and I always say you can never know it all! ESPECIALLY with horses. They LOVE proving you wrong. LOL


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## SuzieAuvergne (Dec 9, 2015)

One of me on a polo pony...he was adorable if a little mad...he was putty in my hands and loved me sitting in his stable brushing him while he was lying down...


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

That's a beautiful picture!


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## SuzieAuvergne (Dec 9, 2015)

First picture...I am admiring these magnificent Percheron, second picture is of an owner showing her horses...


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Wow, Beautiful horses and beautiful scenery! Hope to see more pics in the future.


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## nannypattyrn (Aug 23, 2015)

We a "like " icon on this site!


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I am so stupid. Well maybe its not me. I just had to go to chronicle of the horse and argue my point. My horse is gaited and does a movement that in dressage one line of thought is that the horse has to have years of training and the other school of thought is that a horse can learn it right away. My horse learned it right away. So of course the dressage queens there think its a trick and the breed of horse I have can't do that, or I'm a troll or I'm a banned person that is trying to pull something over them. They are a bunch of bullies. I don't know why I tortured myself. Its probably some kind of envy because my horse is an oddity for doing it. I could kick myself for ever telling them anything. Some forums are not anywhere near as nice as this one. I think there's alot of ego bumping over there. Just had to vent.


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## chickenqueen (Jan 9, 2016)

I'm thinking of getting a horse but know nothing about them.After reading some of these posts,I realize I know even less than I thought I knew.Alot of people here have horses but I never see anybody riding them,they just hang out in their pastures.I want a horse to love and ride,another pet in my menagery.If I were to get a horse,what am I getting myself into?When I mention it to somebody,I always get negative feedback(the same with my chickens 15 yrs ago).I took care of the horse next door when her owner had to go out of town for her parents' funerals and I know how much to feed them,what to feed them and when.Also took care of MIL horses and she had the same routine.I thought I would take some lessons and hopefully can get alot of info that way.Any advice from the good people on this forum?I've wanted 1 my whole life(doesn't every girl?).I have the space,the love and I think enough $.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I think the best ever thing to do is take lessons . Then if you buy one, keep it at a good stable for a few months to learn and have knowledgeable people around. At home, you may want a companion for her, like a pony or donkey. Maybe a goat.

Feet are one of the most important things on a horse, and finding a good farrier or trimmer. You can always mail me pics of the feet and I can tell you just about everything about them (I trimmed hooves for years). Think about how spirited you want a horse. No horse is perfect and they can spook. However it's no fun for a horse to make you scared or nervous. You may also want to get something around 10 years old. I have a Tennessee walker. There is no trot. Just walk and walk faster. I've had several horses since 1985. I've shown for 10 years. I've ridden for 30 years. If you want to buy, find someone who is willing to let you try the horse for a month. A good person will want to check you out too.


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