# Permits to Raise Chickens



## Keith

Some Cities like Billings are looking to implement a permit system to raise chickens.

Do you agree with having to get a permit to raise chickens?


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## Conelrad

Cities look at it as a way to raise money, lawyers use it (for money as well) to settle disagreements between residents.

Dennis


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## crazychickenlady

You don't need a permit for a cat or dog...and they can be more disruptive to the neighbors than chickens. Crazy!


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## mamadice

I can see the need for regulating how many chickens a person has within certain city limits, etc., but if you're out in the country, I see no need for permits or regulations. As long as they're not mistreated, I figure it's fine to have as many as you can comfortably raise.


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## stoopid

crazychickenlady said:


> You don't need a permit for a cat or dog...and they can be more disruptive to the neighbors than chickens. Crazy!


 Yes, but some places want you to license dogs.
I feel permits for chickens is a waste of time and money. They should go after more serious offenders. C'mon... chickens?


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## rockbear777

I do not believe you should need a permit to raise chickens if you live in country or zoned for agricultural.


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## Artsouth

Our city does not enforce the permit regulation, and I suspect we'll be getting a review of the rule soon. The Mobile Bay Area Backyard Chicken Club's Standards Committee is in the process of drafting a proposal for the City that will be a summary of our recommendations. I think Billings did this exercise a few years ago.
We have to have a dog license, renewed annually, so I expect we can look forward to some kind of permit for chickens when the subject hits City Hall.


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## berger

I live in a small rural town. So far, we have not had this issue arise but areas around us are fighting with it. 

It seems the chicken owners are winning most of the fights around here.


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## charliechapman911

It is just another way for them to take your money!!! I live in liconshire and we don't need one (I dont think) hahaha


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## cherittfn

*Really?*

Do I need a permit to raise children. They are louder, more destructive, and messier. I don't understand what the problem is with chickens.


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## Terri_Espinoza

I hate it when the city decides to start wanting permits because it is never just the permit. They then want to tell you how to raise your chickens, what kind you can have, what housing you have to have and the list goes on. If someone is raising chickens and they are not causing any problems, they should not have to have a permit that permits the city to stick their noses in everything they do.


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## eldfort

I'm new to the chicken life, and I actually do think permits should be required, but only for numbers, and only in cities, not counties. I love my babies, but if I lived in a city subdivision with a house 20 feet or so away, my neighbors would probably want to kill me for all the crowing going on in my yard. I know if I lived in a city subdivision, and my next door neighbor had 4 roosters crowing all the time, it would annoy me. I live in the county and everyone has them around here.


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## kaytee

Possibly a "chicken licence", like a dog/cat licence, wouldn't be out of line, especially in the cities. That way, the city would have some idea re: the numbers, and have the funding to enforce regulations, re-home the inevitable "stray chickens" or ones turned in to Animal Control when the fad dies off/people find that it's work to have chickens/chickens don't match their new decor/etc.


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## Jayne

We live on 8 acres in the country, so it doesn't affect us, but honestly, in a city environment, I can see where a permit process would be helpful, especially if there are roos involved! 
I'd be interested to know what the criteria is for getting a permit in these situations....The county we live in requires that all pets be licensed, but seems to me that they're considering chickens to be livestock, not pets.


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## kaytee

Yes, you do need permits to have dogs in most places, and in some places, to have cats. For a single pet-- or maybe up to 3-4, you just need licences. Over that-- you need "kennel permits"/whatever the cat equivalent is. Then there are HOA regulations, rental agreements, etc. that limit what/how many you can have.


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## Jody

no I don't think permits are necessary, I'm in the country and my chickens don't bother anyone, no noise, no smell etc. Just a money grab I think!


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## rodrigch

*Permits for chickens*

Here in Pocatello, ID we are supposed to register our chickens (up to five hens allowed in city limits, no roosters) at $5 a pop. Animal control visited once as a neighbor complained about my rooster (worse than a barking dog) and was informed of these regulations. However, she said if there were no complaints, they were not enforcing laws as more and more people were becoming backyard chicken enthusiasts. Keep your facilities clean, muffle the "noise" with bushes and there should be no problems. I currently have five three year old hens and five poults just beginning to lay and zero complaints from neighbors. If I hear grumblings from them, I am quick to offer free eggs and the grumblings disappear immediately.


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## ladycat

I don't think you should need a permit or license to keep a few hens in a city.

It would make sense to require a permit for a larger number, because some people will get out of hand with it. 

For instance, maybe you could have up to 6 hens with no permit, but if you want more than that, you might need to pay a small yearly fee for each hen over 6.


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## bevie55

I agree the logic of you don't need a permit for a dogs or cats why for chickens?


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## jec3113

In my city here in Oklahoma, they decided to require permits for dogs. Nobody purchsed them and now they have repealed it. LOL It will be a cold day you know where before I buy a permit to raise animals on my property. I disagree with the whole idea. My neighbors don't need a permit for their obnoxious barking dogs or their kids 4 wheeler which is illegally ridden on city streets, so I could care less if my 3 roosters bother them.


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## Farmermama

I don't think anyone should need a permit if they're in an agricultural area. I do think maybe the ownership of roosters might need to be regulated if you have neighbors very close to you in an urban area.


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## Fl_Silkie_mommie

I really don't see the point of having a permit for pet chickens. Geesh, aren't the cities making enough money with having to license your pet cat and dogs. My next door neighbor is fine with my pet chickens. They don't bother her at all. Heck, she enjoys watching them too.


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## secovalleyranch

*Don't need no stinkin' badges*

There is too much red tape in our society as it is. We don't need to facilitate more Big Brother intervention, creating more paperwork, senselessly spending more tax dollars prying into persons' private affairs. If a city wants to implement a "no rooster" ordinance, so be it. Requiring permits to raise chickens however would be unconstitutional.


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## poultry

this i think is all about money making and not the well been of chickens iv been breeding chickens for over 2 years and i love to bring them to shows and go t the sales i sell my chicks to have money for the feed im not in it for the money


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## LinVal

As we live in an area that's zoned ag, we don't need a permit, but I'm totally against permits for in-town chickens. It's another way government would interfere with what we want to do with our own property and milk some more $ out of us. We moved from northern IL and a town that wouldn't even allow chickens, even with a permit.


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## cl_dewey

I see no problem with getting a permit to keep.chickens. cats and dogs have to be liscensed. If you have a liscense, your neighbors can't complain, the cops won't bug you. I lived in a town of 5,000 people that did not allow chickens at all. I would have gladly paid a nominal fee and filled out a paper to be able to legally keep chickens. Like cats and dogs, chickens can carry disease. Also in most areas you can't sell the eggs or meat without being checked out by the usda. So the city would have the if own butts covered from possible litigation by having ppl liscensed to keep "pet" chickens, not agricultural chickens as livestock.


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## CathyCountry

The woman who spearheaded the effort to have backyard chickens here was at it for something like 3 years. I think the idea of permits was as a way of seeing how much interest there was in the community. The number was surprising (to the City Council!) Ours are only $10 per year, I think, and we get bands for the chickens; if one gets out, they know who to call. I think that's a good thing; in some cities I hear that chickens have become wild, running amok. We used to have dog licensing, as well, but now they are required to carry vaccination tags, so that traces to the owners instead. I hear that licensing may go away one day - once the residents get comfortable with their neighbors raising chickens and see that it's not an issue. 

I do think there has to be some (minimal) regulations for backyard chickens. Our city bars roosters, for instance, due to the noise factor (I'm sure my neighbors have wondered if I have a roo, since some days their egg songs have been so loud that I even wondered a time or two! - But, of course, they aren't doing that at dawn, when many people want to keep sleeping) I thought the number allowed of 6 was a little arbitrary at first, but have since realized that most residential properties wouldn't be able to build a humane coop to house many more than that (with the reg of a coop having to be 10 feet off the property line and 20 ft from the house of the nearest neighbor), and I can see some people stuffing many more birds in an area than they should. Maybe they should tie the number to the size of the property (as well as the minimum sq ft per bird, as they do now) I wouldn't mind two more birds, and we have a coop and property that would sustain that many, easily.

Just some thoughts on the subject.


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## tammysbuffkin

I live in the country down on the dead end of a dirt road and personally see no reason for us to have to get a permit but I can see where inside city limits there might be a need for them.


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## ramp45

We don't have an ordinance yet but the first meeting we had brought up this issue. They are talking about having a permit for each chicken in case they get out the authorities will "know" where to go to contact the owners. lol Their reasoning is the city pound doesn't have facilities to keep run away chickens. There would be a limit on how many we can have which hasn't been set yet. They are talking about 4 or so. And of course, no roosters. I don't want one anyway. 

I personally don't want to have to get permits. We don't have to have them for dogs or cats. I will let you know as we go along. If we go along. It could take many years for anything to be done here if the roads and city water are any indication.


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## Chickenman

I have raised chickens for over 14 years now (since 1998). I volunteered my flock to be monitored with the NC Dept. of Agriculture. They come out about 4 times per year to test for pullorum and mareks. All of my chickens have numbered bands. My situation is that I do take my chickens out to the public (fairs, festivals, special events, media promotions), so i need to be accountable and responsible to everyone. A permit is not required here in Clinton NC (Sampson County). I do support a volunteer registry as an alternative rather than required permits. There are always going to be those who are not reasonable or responsible in the area of animal care. I have only seen a couple of chicken flock owners who were not providing proper care in the 14 years I have been raising chickens. If some localities should have issues arise because of less than responsible animal care, then a permit may help to make chicken ownership/care more manageable. Permits do not always provide better, more responsible animal ownership, but can help monitor situations that require accountability. One of the most impressive discoveries about "Chicken people" is they are very caring about their flock.


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## kathyinmo

Yet another way for Mr. Government to wiggle into my private life. I'm so sick of tired of that. It seems to me none of us can make a decision about anything. Register this, license that - and on and on. It's a bunch of bull.

I have read that 95% of all laws are due to 5% of the people. Sounds about right.


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## cogburn

That's what can happen in a municipality, YOU do not have the final say vs. a city council. That's why it's important to form groups of hobbiest, backyard chicken people, those that are in an incorporated city limit, spread the word theres strength in numbers. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.. Make them work with you, never settle.. If it stays in the hands of those city "officials"... Ahummmm.. BS... Excuse me.. Had. To. Clear me throat... Anyways.. YOUR CITY COUNCIL majority, are not chicken people !!!! They could care less... Make a stink.. Let them know you are out there.. And as far as living in the county, but populated areas, human vs. wildlife could be the tool they use, to say.... Hey there's a Bear/Wolf/Cougar/Coyote/Human Safety Issue possible problem in the making, but otherwise county's allow just about everything space allows, as long as its sanitary.. That's my 2 cents

Cogburn


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## fuzziebutt

I also disagree. There is too much government now, and having to obtain permits to raise chickens even as pets might stop parents from allowing children the joy of learning to raise and care for chickens of their own.


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## tdepointe

My state requiers permits if you have over 500 birds, There is som question as to wether this is adult birds only or all birds.


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## SamyIsh

*Permits are better than nothing*

I had a neighbor complain about my 2 chickens. The code enforcement officer sent a letter but was really reasonable. No fines, but i would have to have them gone by 30 days when he come by to inspect. I'd rather have to pay for a permit or licence than have nothing at all though.


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## ThreeJ

I agree that ordinances are needed in the city or town limits, but permits as long as they are free are fine by me.


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## WaterFowl209

I think this is just opening the door for a flood of other things that they will try and make us have permits for.



Keith said:


> Some Cities like Billings are looking to implement a permit system to raise chickens.
> 
> Do you agree with having to get a permit to raise chickens?


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## PeterFromRutland

Keith said:


> Some Cities like Billings are looking to implement a permit system to raise chickens.
> 
> Do you agree with having to get a permit to raise chickens?


I'm in Rutland, MA and we are a "right to farm" community. Meaning, you do not need permits to farm, whether that be plants or animals or both. Even when i got my animals tagged and tested so I could sell eggs, it was free. Most towns and definitely cities are NOT like this. I was just talking to a coworker today that lives in Stoughton, MA and she would have to not only get a permit (about $100 after that and fees) but get permission from all of her abutters as well! I personally think this is outrageous and a violation of our rights.


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## Darkhairmama

If the permit was as much as my dog license $7 then I wouldn't mind. However, if the permit was more but didn't expire and protected one form neighbors that complained. Then yeah why not. Again, this should only be for place that's in a suburb not country or farms.


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## jamieg

I live in the country in county Antrim Northern Ireland and to be able to keep chickens for a purpose eg selling of eggs, showing you have to be registered with the DARD ( department of agricultural and rural development) but this is good because it helps prevent disease by informing owners of where the outbreak has occurred and preventative measures against it and this is all free of charge


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## marriedtokosta

I agree with cherittfn The day you need a permit for children... I will license my hens


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## Catfish

This whole issue is about CONTROL and the dissolving of your freedoms everyday. 
Till people remember three little words "We The People" and start making these 
overbearing municipalities pay for trials and the people demand a Jury trial and 
tell them to go pound sand your going to have more and more encroachment 
on your rights.


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## bakarate

It's just another tax. We don't have anything like that here, and if they did I'd make them enforce it! It's crazy!


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## ledonaldson

crazychickenlady said:


> You don't need a permit for a cat or dog...and they can be more disruptive to the neighbors than chickens. Crazy!


You don't need permits for dogs, but you are required to have dog licenses in every city/town I've ever lived in. I would favor permits for city chickens that have some restrictions like no roosters. I dearly love my roosters, but I don't want to live next door to one!

LD


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## sfinhill

Here in San Jose, you can have up to six hens without a permit. If you want to raise more within the city limits, you need a permit. We do have some agricultural lots and I believe you can raise more without a permit. Unfortunately roosters are never permitted within the city. We have had our chickens for about five months and even with cleaning the coop twice a week, they still attract a great deal of flies. They are relatively quiet but the rooster makes a lot of noise. We have already been reported to the city and we now have to relocate our rooster. It will be a sad day around our home for a while.


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## FinnFjerkrae

There are no permits required here in Denmark to have chicken. In general you are allowed to have 30 chickens before it gets "commercial" and then you have to register etc. In rural areas, there can be no regulations. In cities, the county board can make some regulations. Unfortunately most of them are made by people behind a desk that doesn't know the least about chicken.. in 14 out of 98 counties, you are not even allowed to let your chicken out on your own lawn. They have to stay in the pen all the time. Even if the garden is fenced and they cannot get to the neighbours.. There are also a few that doesn't allow roosters, and there are some that say a rooster has to be inside in dark house from 20-07 (9 in the weekend) in cities (which is fair enough).

Generally the problem is that too much is in the hand of people in the county office that doesn't know about chicken and they rule against the chicken keeper. My experience is that permits and regulations tend to increase the work load of the bureacrats. Maybee thats why the make them to keep their own work....


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## karenbrat1

I absolutely do NOT think one should have to have a permit to raise chickens. However I do think it's ok for there to be a nuisance law against crowing roosters in the city limits, or filth, as long as the same law is in place for dogs. I know a man who raised a full sized PIG (for his freezer) in his yard smack in the middle of Coeur d'Alene, Idaho; granted, he did live in an older neighborhood with large lots. You couldn't see it unless you were looking for it, and he kept that pig's pen cleaner than most people keep their dog yards clean so the neighbors never had anything to complain about. In fact two houses down a scummy family had several very large, always barking dogs and their FRONT yard was a nasty carpet of dog poop. So if a city is not going to make any effort to enforce against dogs, leave the chickens alone.


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## dee086

here in Ireland they are trying or have recently brought in a law that if you have more than 6 laying hens you have to pay a tax on them i think its ridiculous and a pathetic excuse to raise more money from people that cant afford it


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## ReniesPeeps

Nope.. I have enough paperwork to keep up with... Don't want to be bothered having to register my chickens... already part of the yearly NPIP testing.


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## nakedneckmamma

In some towns throughout Montana do not need a permit because they are a farming/ ranch community : Like for instance here in Absarokee I do not need a permit because its a farming community ... I know if you live outside of Billings City limits you can have chickens. I think in Park city you can have chickens without a permit because they are a farming community: Not sure in Laurel. I know you have to have permits in Missoula and Helena. I will try to find the website......... in some cities its just hens allowed no roosters...


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## Jeremysbrinkman

We have no restrictions in Mobile county but in the city there are.


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## seiuchin

*chicken permits*

I do not believe permits are needed. I feel that cities can make ordinances and that is all that is needed. Many cities have done this. We have city ordinances for dogs especially leash laws and poop pick up (outside of their own yard) I have seen some chicken yards that are absolutly filthy, good thing they do not have a close next door neighbor!


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## FlaCummins

I live outside the city limits but I would be ok with voluntary registering of your chickens. One permit I agree with is python/boa permits. Every so often they find them just roaming a neighborhood down here in Florida.


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## PreemieMom

I do and dont understand the problem. I guess I can understand roosters within city limits. But, not with hens. I live in the country and always have so chicken permits have never been a issue for us.


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## mchl236

Maybe in the cities, number of chickens proportionate to size of property, but no need for permits. Rural areas, NO need for regulations. Government is getting ridiculous! Don't want any of us to be self sufficient!


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## vandj

I don't think you need a permit to raise anything, chickens, pigs, goats, cattle. I live in the country, but the town I live by has you get a permit in the city limits, $1.00 per year. You can have 7 hens and no roosters. I think in the city limits people have an expectation of what will be in their neighbors yard (don't agree, but people with animals can get a place outside of town), roosters crow off and on from when they wake up till they go to sleep. I enjoy the crowing or I wouldn't have them, but someone living 50 foot away may not like it. I know everyone can't live out of town, I also know that people just have to find something to complain about. If city government get complaints they usually act, I think permits are better than banning chickens from town. Do I agree with permits? NO! But it is better than banning, if you live in town go to a councel meeting and see what you can do about it, most of the time it was brought up by someone and can be taken away if others don't agree.


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## lowery014

For the most part, I think permits are about revenue and control. I live in the county and have never had a problem. I do believe, Seattle and some of the larger towns/cities in Washington State allow chickens inside the city limits, but no roosters. But, I don't understand the permitting issue or the trying to compare dogs, cats to chickens. One category are pets, the other is livestock, when you try to confuse or combine the two, you open the gates for more regulation and controls to the governement. Chickens are livestock, very easy to prove, one eats the eggs and/or bird itself, dogs/cats, chuckle, not so much. One should be able to maintain a flock, if it becomes an issue of cleaniness then handle in a manner that satisfies existing ordinances. As for roosters, inside the city limits, I completely understand, one man's(or woman's) music is another's noise.

Hope my ramblings made a little sense. Been a long week, with Fair Season here and kids in 4H and FFA.


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## cgmccary

Generally, I am against more government control in most facets of life. However, there are some caveats for me. If you were running a full scale poultry business, I see no reason you should not have a business permit like every other profession has to obtain. It would not be a permit to have chickens though, just a business license like I have to get every year for my profession.

There are a few areas where I think there should be more government control. I contrast chickens with say dogs. I believe breeding dogs is one area where a license should be required & I am for spay/ neuter laws. This is because people breed dogs irresponsibly. Here in Alabama (where there are no such laws), our shelters are overrun, people dump dogs on the roads, etc. All my dogs were once strays. My road happens to be a dog dumping ground. Neighbors and I are always sheltering and trying to find homes for stray dogs. I currently am taking care of two Pointer (bird-dogs) puppies, 14-15 weeks old, beautiful dogs (if anyone is interested). They were dumped on my road. I have four dogs of my own (a maximum number for me). I have taken the Pointer puppies and gotten their shots & will probably end up spaying and neutering them (hope I don't end up with six dogs). 

I also believe people with exotic animals (like mentioned boas, pythons as well as lions, tigers, etc.) where they are released indiscriminately into the wild to destroy & disrupt natural habitats -- those people should have to get a LICENSE (again, because of irresponsible behavior. We know what happens if people released chickens into the environment-- they would end up being prey for something -- but not a bad world if there were wild chickens about.

Chicken owners, by contrast, are pretty responsible people and if you get too many, you can eat them. Also, requiring people to get a permit would discourage chicken owners, and I believe there ought to be MORE chicken owners. In fact, if I had my way, every household where it was possible would have some hens for eggs. I'd put the commercial egg industry out-of-business. I agree with everyone who says requiring a permit is just another revenue source for local government (permitting would just be a way to make more money, tax more).


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## hockeychick

I live in a small town in New Jersey and a permit is not required to own chickens, believe it or not. (Poor NJ has a bad reputation - it doesn't all look like the area around Newark Airport, and we don't all act like the cast from Jersey Shore!) 

I guess there are pros and cons with this issue. If you have a small flock then I don't see why a permit would be necessary. Maybe if you have over a certain number of birds, depending on the location, a permit would be necessary. A barking dog can be a LOT louder than a hen. Roosters are another story... Honestly, I too believe that it is just another way for governments to make money. They also would know who has chickens, and how many, and that could end up being problematic for chicken owners. This is extremely hypothetical, but in the event of a weird virus outbreak, or avian flu, folks from the state could show up and test/cull birds. Y'all know how crazy people get when there is some type of viral outbreak. Again, that is extremely hypothetical-worst case scenario type of thing, but you never know.

I think that one good thing would be that if people have 50 birds and are in a suburban area, the coop/run area could be inspected to make sure that the birds are not being kept in over crowded and dirty conditions. 

My father lives in a town where the houses are right on top of one another. The people on one side have 4 dogs, the house on the other side has 1 dog, and the house behind his has 3 dogs. You can't sit outside because all you ever hear are barking dogs, and the smell that comes from people not picking up after their dogs is gross! My father is so upset about the situation that he now wants to get chickens and a rooster. I don't think that his town allows chickens unfortunately.


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## hockeychick

SamyIsh said:


> I had a neighbor complain about my 2 chickens. The code enforcement officer sent a letter but was really reasonable. No fines, but i would have to have them gone by 30 days when he come by to inspect. I'd rather have to pay for a permit or licence than have nothing at all though.


SamyIsh, I am sorry that you have to give your birds up. It is ridiculous that a neighbor would complain about 2 chickens!! People need to get a life, seriously. I hope that the law in your town changes eventually so that you can have chickens again.


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## havasu

Unless zoned for livestock or agriculture, I believe yes.


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## Youknowmyname57

I think it depends on where you live. I live in the country on 33 acres and I'll get all the animals I can afford to take care of, vet, feed and house. It'd be different in a town or city setting where there are neighbors to worry about.

Donna


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## CackleHatchery

Our city allows a limit on how many females you can have with a no rooster allowed rule. That is how most cities are and I can't imagine having to get a permit on a chicken, that seems a little silly to me. Of course I live in a city that dosnt require one for a dog or cat either. I think limiting the number of chickens allowed is appropriate to cut down on smell and just general nussance. I also agree there should be a ban on roosters in town.


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## sonnyboy

Common sense regulation - yes, permits - not for every situation. With the growing popularity of backyard pet chickens, I don't think a small quantity of hens (4-12 depending on lot size) in town should require a permit, or any size hobby flock (under 100-200 +/-) in the country.


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## horsefeathers

My, this boat has a lot of passengers. May I climb aboard?
At this point I have to believe it's about money. No one has enough, including the local governments, and the answer is to squeez it out of any source that seems promising. Have officials noticed an increase in swaps or other poultry related activities? Have grocery stores seen a drop in egg sales? Whatever it is, no, it is not right to start charging the public just to have a hobbie or to own a pet or 2, (or 16).


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## adorson

I don't agree with the permits because I don't see what real purpose the permit would do except generate more money for the city. In the mention of dog licenses, mine cost $6.00 for the year and at least there is a benefit to the license. If your dog gets lost and no other identification is on them, they can be tracked back to you with this tag. 
I just don't see what the permit would do to benefit the chicken owner or neighbors at all. The permits won't guarantee the chickens won't be noisy or the owners would take care of them correctly. We already have the NPIP in place for those of us to want to be able to sell hatching eggs or chickens out of state so there already is a government tracking system in place as well as testing for disease.


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## ORChicknlady

We used to live in Gresham, Oregon...fourth lagest population in the state. People started wanting chickens out there because Portland was allowing them, but Gresham, being an eiltist run town, they decided they would give it a trial run, so long as people paid a $60 yearly permit fee and had only a certain sized lot. Well the lot thing...they made the size requirements so large that almost none could have chickens, and those who do they scrutinize everything about their chicken pens and all (basically they did not want people to have them, but in order to retian their council seats they allowed it with almost unreasonable restrictions, it was all about politics and control).

Then there is Portland (Oregon), that allows up to 3 chickens per lot, and more if you file a permit, but no roosters in town at all (simply due to the noise). They do not come out and inspect or scrutinize and only do if it is an extreme case or a permit was not filed for too many, otherwise they leave people alone.

Now my take on this? I think if you live in a high density area and do not have some process which to control things, it could get out of hand as we all know, there are plenty of people who would take advantange, and there are plenty who would not clean as they should. However in the country, where we are at, I feel permits are completely unecessary and most rural counties or towns will never put that on rural residents unless they happen to be running a large operation for profit.

We live in a leased property, just outside our small towns city limits. We have an old horse barn we are using, and this property is on over 8 acres. We currently have one banty rooster and 16 full sized hens, as well as five banty hens (they are good bug catchers). We are adding 12 more Rhode Island pullets in about 3 weeks, to the flock (they are penned seperately for now). We have a large family and supply fresh eggs to ourselves and sell any extras, which helps defray costs of their feed.

The one thing I know can be a problem here, flies, and can understand why larger population areas want to control how many chickens people have. There are plenty of ways to control the flies, people have to learn to implement these options to keep flies under control. As well, the other issue as I understand is rats. Many people neglect to secure their chicken feed in the pens, and forget to store it in a place or container rats cannot get to. So...Portlands rat population has risen, that's never good. Out here we only have to be concerned with mice, but thats why we buy traps, bait bars and have our cats.

I only am a proponent of permits in dense populations simply to make people more aware of what they are doing and to be as clean as possible and to make sure they secure all feed from vermin. It is more about the trouble it could bring to the human population if it is not taken care of right. I think if people paid a small fee ($25) and had to go to a one or two hour class on how to deal with sanitation and vermin/pest control so they understood the impact of not doing it right, that would be reasonable. Many people get into raising chickens without knowing what they are doing at all, and totally unaware of how raising chickens in close quarters with others will impact everyone.


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## BoiseBackyardChickens

*Permits are silly*

I'm with you!


cherittfn said:


> Do I need a permit to raise children. They are louder, more destructive, and messier. I don't understand what the problem is with chickens.


Permits are just another way to regulate a system that has yet to show any real harm to society. It would open a door to a pandora's box of regulations, protocols, and red tape. We've got enough on our plates as flock owners. Why involve the permit system? To be NPIP certified is a choice and those who take on that designation understand that there are procedures in place. But for those of us who enjoy our backyard chickens with little to no contact with the public there is no need for permits. 
- In my humble opinion anyway. 
- Sara founder BoiseBackyardChickens.blogspot.com


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## TheLazyL

Mixed emotions on this.

I live in the country on 3 acres. Neighbor beside me is on 30 acres. Across the road minimum lot size is 3 acres.

Some neighbors have horse, beef cattle and chickens.

We aren't going to have the law telling us we need a permit! J



On the other hand.

If I lived in a subdivision with a bunch of neighbors within 100 feet of me I'd be alittle ticked with a bunch of roosters constantly crowing while I'll trying torecover from the flu.


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## creeperolie

Maybe in a city, but not in the countryside


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## sajack

I believe it is another tactic the city big whigs want to use to tell us what we can do with the property we pay for and pay the taxes on. I can see needing to keep them clean and upkeep on the coop and not letting them run around on the neighbors yard (unlike many dog owners do) but I don't think permits are needed. But then I live in a town that doesnt even permit us to have chickens and now mine I have had for years are illigal. I dislike government running my life that I work and pay for.


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## Goldenglitter

*Permits?*

I'm in the UK. Here we dont require permits to keep garden chickens, but each town has it's own by-laws which sometimes restricts the number you can keep. In an area of housing you are not allowed to keep a cockerel if it disturbs your neighbours, and they usually do! Also, individual properties may have covenants which stop the keeping of any livestock, but this is rare. 
I live in a rural village and my council allows me to keep a flock of _hens_ numbering 'under 10'. At the moment i have 3 hybrid large fowl and 3 young bantams, and they have lots of space. (I also have 6 quails  )
We don't have to apply to anywhere to keep chickens. My friend in Canada is campaigning to be allowed to keep them, as they are banned from doing so.

Kristen


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## berniceannab

I think there should be regulation inside city limits due to the proximity of a larger population to the chickens simply for sanitation reasons. I try to live by the "what if everyone did that" theory. 

And while most of us are sanitation and health minded, there will always be one (or more) who don't keep healthy birds, clean pens, etc... also, inside city limits there are businesses and for birds who insist on flying out of the coop, this could present a problem. I certainly would not want to fight off a mean rooster to get my gasoline or go to the library, etc...

I do not agree with a permit that costs money. I do agree with a permit that regulates space, conditions, and healthy birds.


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## hesterj

I guess I just crawled out from under this rock a little too late. 

A license or tag for a chicken? It is hard to understand the real purpose here. Guess you need to live in the city so close to your neighbor that you feel the need to control even what they do on a day to day basis. What other reason would a real American have to give up on basic rights? Come on people! 

Hitler did three things to kill so many people. He first controlled the guns,then the Medicine,and lastly the food. 
If you have no means to protect,care,or feed yourself then you are at the mercy of the ones that do. 

Sorry for the rant here. It just bothers me to see so many people giving away everything the people before them worked so hard for.


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## castillofa

My input on permiting is simply - No! Then again, my family is lucky enough to live in a rural area in East Texas. However, I would say that education is key to those who live within city limits or within boundaries that still view chickens as livestock. If you are having an issue with zoning, it is imperative that the laws be researched in order to understand the intent of the law when it was first enacted. Many of the zoning laws affecting livestock were first implemented during a more agricultural time when growing communities did not want vegetable/egg/food stands in front of every house on a given road. This research should enable you to better argue the case that your backyard chickens are for personal use and do not meet the definition of livestock as in a farm setting.


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## TheGarryFarm

Well, I'm a poultry lover who lives in the Country. I believe that poultry should be allowed in the city within some parameters. Where I used to live in a subdivision had a noise ordinance in that county. Which applied and applies to all animals. After being kept awake until 2 am and 4 am in the morning, for 10 nights in a row. We filed a complaint against a barking dogs neighbor. Before the complaint was lodged, I spoke with him in person multiple times. He kept saying he didn't hear them....Well, when the person from Animal control came out he found them barking like crazy. Only after this went on to court did the neighbor change his ways. I hated that it ended this way. I would have far preferred to have just been able to stop the issue, without court involvement. Personally I would rather be woken by a rooster than 2 pit bulls barking and lunging at the fence and once in my back yard after it came through and trying to bite my rabbits. Since houses are so close to others in the city as are town houses. I think the fairer thing to fall under the "noise abatement issue"....


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## magewife

We don't have to have a permit for chickens in my town. And there is a limit of 150 as long as they are raised as food. If they are just pets you can only have 5. I am sure that will change before long too. I don't think you should have to have a permit to raise your food.


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## ErnieS

I suppose there should be some oversight for those that raise chicken for food and/or meat for sale, but for back yard coops with a dozen or so birds? No way!


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## kurmaraja12

In my opinion, the problem comes more from the stupid home owner's/neighborhood associations. Some have really strict rules that restrict pet ownership way beyond the law :-/


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## aamirghanchi

I'm Absolutely not in favor of any kind of restriction on raising chickens in any setting. By posting replies on this group, I guess, we are preaching the choir. If there is something significant needs to be done then it should be done using one of the online petition websites. Let me know if you are interested and I can lead you to one or you can google it yourself.

All the best!


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## Stellar

I have permits for my quail. I feel if you have more than a certain number, a permit should be in place. For example I need a permit if I have over 50 quail. This is 51 or more quail. If you have a permit for a certain amount of birds, people shouldn't be messing with you as you are not hiding anything. Wherever I have lived, I registered my dogs. Nothing to hide. Honesty is the best policy.


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## forjodie2

Keith said:


> Some Cities like Billings are looking to implement a permit system to raise chickens.
> 
> Do you agree with having to get a permit to raise chickens?


It is just another way for cities to get money. I understand a hen limit and no roosters in town, and believe that is needed to cut down on complaints and be a good neighbor to all. I am sick of City, State, and Federal Governments tapping into my pay check, for their own greed!


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## christianmama

Our neighbor, Carbondale Il, now allows 5 hens in town with a permit. My guess is that having people register their chickens helps Animal Control keeps tabs, and make sure the chickens are treated properly. I live outside of town and don't need a permit.


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## jonathco

You shouldn't need a permit to raise chickens. This country was founded on liberty; why should I have to get the city/township/county's blessing to raise chickens in my yard? Fortunately, here in Michigan, we can stand up under the Michigan Right to Farm Act


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## Iteach2008

*permits*

The Denver, CO just eliminated the permit requirement.


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## 7chicks

I can see in town limits not allowing roosters being they do tend to be much noisier. Chickens themselves are a lot quieter than the muffler-less vehicles I have to listen to going by my house 24/7. Quieter too than the neighbor's kid riding back and forth from 9 a.m. - 9:30 p.m. every day behind my house with a deliberately excessively loud 4-wheeler. I'd take chickens over that racket any day!!! They aren't on other peoples property wrecking it either like the dog from over a mile away I had to deal with again today.


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## Rickjenkins47

*Permits? Hell No!*

These are NOT my pets, they are food. I have layers for eggs, and when their production decreases, they are in the pot. I raise chicks as fryers 8 to 12 weeks. Unlike President Obama, I and most other Americans don't eat dogs which need permits, and I should not be required to permit my groceries.


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## stu-hens

I dont think permits should be necessary,too many regulations already and my hens are well liked by my neighbours however i expect it will come soon enough because unfortunately i hate to say this but not all people that keep hens look after them well and can be messy,smelly and wonder into other people's gardens ,hence complaints.
It's people that are the problem not the hens in the same way as with so called dangerous dogs etc etc. Plus more and more people are keeping hens in small gardens in towns and cities and not all sellers ie garden centres etc just jump on the band wagon and are selling housing which is too small and too many hens in a small space.

so.....after my rant i dont want to have to have a permit however i have lived next to people with barking all day dogs ,quail which made a racket and can understand why it will probably happen.


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## JeremiahsSilkies

I think that there should be just be a form informing the city that you have farm animals. This way if there are complaints they can tell you that your chickens are getting out. There shouldn't be real documentation on them. This is the land of the free, right? Its kinda ridiculous that you can't have chickens, or need to pay even more to keep them. So my answer is no permits.


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## kilagirl

Ok, I do not think you should have to have a permit. But on the other hand I do know people that have abused the amount of chickiens in town. We live 15 miles from town so we do not have to have a permit. But I do know that there is a limit in town. And no roosters. And a limited amount of hens. 
We at one time ended up taking chickens from a liady in town. The reason is she had a good 50 chickens in town in a small area. And the smell and noise was horrible. And the mess was horrible for the birds as well. And the neighbors complained because the lady also had peacocks in town.
But I do think you should follow the rules or move out of town if you feel the need for more chickens it will be better for the birds as well as the person.


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## Karolina

*Permits for chickens*

I live in Denver and getting a permit is easy. All you have to do is apply for one and meet some of the criteria. The permit is $25 forever but some of the criteria suck, such as having the chickens in a rear lot. I do not have a rear lot but only a front one, so I can't have any chickens outside. I'm trying to have one indoors instead. There is nothing in the application about indoor chickens  Anyway, I guess I'm fine with permits as long as they don't require too much and don't cost too much. And yes, we also needed to get a city license for our dog and cats too. I guess if you live in a larger city you have to deal with all of this.


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## kernriverguy

I have a somewhat different problem. I live in a very rural area in the mountains of central California. The sub-division that I own 7 acres in, has CC&R's restricting ANY farm animals. We are not in a town. We are governed by County regulations. No such restriction anywhere else in the county.


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## Marthab53

That is totally ridiculous to require a permit to raise chickens.


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## nahavener

*permits*

not a fan of permits,but have no problem with mabe having a chicken registry


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## earlyt89

No, I don't believe you should have to have a permit to have chickens. I'm annoyed because in city limits here you can't have a pig. Just another way for the government to have a sense of control. Bad idea all around


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## earl

so, I would say nobody wants a required permit, and I agree


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## jeanh

I am in a rural area so it does not affect us - however in our local town you are not allowed to keep roosters which is fair enough. I do not have a problem with requiring permits in towns where noise and mess can be an issue. Self regulation has been working just fine in our bit of SW Australia and I do not really see the need to change. Any overcrowding or mistreatment is covered by the animal welfare legislation here which would be the only benefit from requiring permits outside town areas as welfare complaints would be less likely. As always good owners would have to bear the brunt of trying to control the bad ones.


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## GRITSLOVECHICKS

*More Government Control with Permits*

I personally believe that the Government wants more control of ALL people that are self sufficient and raise their own "organic" NON GMO foods/animals. I have read several articles lately that indicates the Government restraints will be placed on ANY farmer from small hobby farms to the larger commercial farmers mandating use of ONLY GMO seeds and a possible ban on all barnyard animals considered "hooved" and poultry. Hooved animals are supposedly contaminating the underground water and run offs into the rivers & streams and the POTUS has issued an Executive Order giving him total control of our water supplies/waterways etc. He wants a totally "CLEAN" environment for future generations but having read the Executive Orders, it is basically giving him more control of what people do to be self sufficient and not be dependent on the Government. They will supposedly burn the crops that are NOT GMO and kill livestock that are not fed GMO feed/grain etc. The issue with poultry is the fear of Avian Flu becoming a pandemic as more & more people start raising their own chickens. People all over the US are seeing the economic problems facing our country and are going back to the old ways of farming to be able to feed their families PLUS know WHAT they are eating. Suburbanites are even starting to plant little gardens and raise a small flock of chickens to supplement their food bought at the grocery. However local governments are "FINING" people for gardening and banning backyard chickens as they COULD BE OFFENSIVE to neighbors...the odor & noise pollution being the main issues with chickens. Having to have permits will only indicate to the Government WHO is raising WHAT so they can "FINE" you and destroy your crops/animals. The same with requiring gun registration or gun permits. This will only establish a roster of names to be targeted if a Ban on Firearms is agreed by the UN Gun Control Treaty. The Government can be vicious and devious with its LAWS but they definitely do not have the common citizen in mind when issuing fines or banning self sufficiency. I do have concerns with people that do not take proper care of their animals, be it livestock/poultry or pets but I do not feel having to have a "PERMIT" will omit those problems under any circumstances. Some people are just negligent, nasty and inhumane when it comes to animals and a permit will not change that situation.


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## AmyR

I live in the city, they do require a permit, the annual fee isn't horrible. $37.00. What is silly, is the application, which just basically has your name and address has to be notarized! Kind of silly if you ask me! 

The city also requires licensing for dogs... So, they are not singling out chickens.


Overall, I understand the city's desire to track some animals... Or if they did it to assure people were good pet owners and properly caring for animals they keep... That would be fine too. But In thr end, I think it is all a way for the city to make extra money.


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## Fionastu

*Permits*

We in Western Australia, are only allowed to keep 12 chooks. You cannot keep a rooster or geese in the suburbs, larger plots out of the suburbs can. We have rangers that check up on people, or follow up on complaints. We have to register dogs and cats too. it is not a problem, you also have to have your chooks 5 metres away from any neighbours. I live in a suburb with large blocks and everyone has chooks her.... all the best...


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## anderson8505

I don't believe we need ANY government involvement when it comes to raising chickens in your own yard. Sure, if someone is reported as abusing or neglecting ANY animal(s), then gov. may step in, but otherwise, stay the heck out of my wallet and my business!


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## GRITSLOVECHICKS

I do NOT think we should have to register ANY of our animals with the local government! This would be their way of KNOWING WHO HAS WHAT and seek out to destroy or "FINE" you for growing/feeding animals with NON FDA approved GMO feed. MONSANTO is trying to control all seeds/feed with their Genetically Mutated formula's that will either make us sick, give us cancer or if it be their way...kill us!


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## Lonnie

No no no HELL NO! No more government control! Leave us alone you damned control freaks! That's all I have to say bout that...


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## Chixmama

I think if you are within a town or city's limits you should have to get a permit if you are over a certain number of birds. The reason that I say this is because having chickens within the limits of cities is a hard won cause and there would probably be a few nut-cases that would ruin it for everyone. They could do stupid things that really piss off the neighbors and jinx it for all of us. My mother-in-law, who lived in a small township in PA lived next door to her who would always pick when they were outside having a picnic to either clean out his rabbit cages or slaughter some rabbits. So it was either putting up with smells that would gag you or listening to the rabbits screaming and hearing and seeing him clubbing them over the head. Did he have a right to do those things? Yes. Did he need to do them while we were eating? I don't think so. Just a tad bit passive-aggressive!


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## SCYankees

I think it all depends on where you live and how crowded it is. In the country where we are, it shouldn't matter, except for noisy roosters since we all live on 1 acre parcels. If you have several acres, you are a real farmer and it shouldn't matter at all. Now if you live in a small community with only a few feet between you and your neighbor, well, that be a different matter. Our chickens are pretty quiet, but they do smell and if I lived in the city with little space between me and my neighbor I might be offended by someone's smelly chickens. Just my two cents.


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## twentynine

Sorry guys I voted for the permits.

However I voted with half hearted. 

In an urban environment, city or development, absolutely. In fact most developments have some sort of covenant spelling out no poultry. Next thing is to answer why. Well, I have kept chickens now most of my adult life, only recently have I had a neighbor with in hearing distance. When they moved in, I introduced myself and explained that I raised chickens and I hoped it would not be an issue. They assured me they were "country" people and enjoyed the chicken noise. Plus their home is well cionstructed, insulated very well and all living space is on the far end. Never have they been a problem.

Now imagine for a second that I live in a city on a city size lot, with neighbors a whisper away. I can't in good conscience believe that all my neighbors would jump for joy over a rooster crowing or missing a rooster, the egg song.

Furthermore, I belong to another chicken website, and I can't begin to tell you how many people buy chickens, then within days or weeks they run "fowl" of development covenants or city ordanances. I see these people comming up with some sort of outlandish reason why they are special. Chickens are therapy animals. Chickens are the same as parrots. Or my favorite, I can't get rid of the chickens because my kids love them.

And as well as we would all like to believe that all chicken owners are responsible, sane, mature adults, what is the ultimate truth, sans permit or with out city ordance or development covenant you'll have some chicken man with a 1/8 acre lot and 200 chickens, 100 of them being dear to heart roosters. 

So yes, I voted yes.

With that being said rural, multi use, agriculture property outside of housing development areas, no.


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## DoneDeere

We have enough government regulation, they should leave us and our chickens alone.


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## Janey

*Chickens permits*



Keith said:


> Some Cities like Billings are looking to implement a permit system to raise chickens.
> 
> Do you agree with having to get a permit to raise chickens?


The permit has been put into play in the city of Vernon British Columbia Canada. We have to pay $5 per chicken per year to have them. The by-law says we can only have 3 hens and no rooster. I agree no rooster but I do not agree only 3 hens. Hens pair up and when 1 is left alone the other 2 pick on it. We had 4 and the city made us get rid of 1 and it was sad to see the one wee girl by herself on the roost and in the yard. I think the city should let you have either 2 or 4 because nothing in this life is meant to be in 3's. Otherwise I do not like to have to pay the city for my 3 chickens. The girls are looked after very well (spoiled) Our city has very tough restrictions that go along with the permits too. $50 fine for each bird if they get out of their pen ,pen must be totally closed in so no bird or animal can get in ,they must be in a chicken tractor when free ranging in the yard.I think they carry it a tad far at times. They allow loads of dogs and cats around but are tough on chickens. You also must dispose of the chicken poo (I put it in the compost so they cannot see it, it is picked up 2 times a day) .Hope this helps everyone


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## KatB

cherittfn said:


> Do I need a permit to raise children. They are louder, more destructive, and messier. I don't understand what the problem is with chickens.


Same goes for the neighbors' dogs--yappy, howling, smelly, and unchecked. They don't permit for dogs. OR cats-who come into my yard and kill my birds and terrorize my quail.
My chickens are quite and clean and unobtrusive. As long as I keep my yards clean and neat, why should I need a permit. It's my land and I don't bother anyone.


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## judy

We do not need permits or any government involvement! What would the benefits be and to whom would they benefit.


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## Snyburg

Where I am, in Oregon, they have a limit on how many chickens you can have, for city raised chickens. I don't agree we should also have to have a permit. They want dogs to be licensed but don't enforce it here, and nothing is required to own cats. They are even considering letting people own small goats and pot bellied pigs in the city limits but haven't mentioned needing permits.


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## casechaser

*Permits for chickens*

_ How crazy is that to have someone tell us we must have a permit to have chickens. I'm sure the next thing they'll want is for us to get a permit for the predators that hang around wanting to eat our chickens too! _


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## leslir

I am grateful that the city I live in, Bedford, TX, does not require permits. The city law states that 5 chickens are allowed, including a rooster. I feel that is reasonable for city limits. There are certainly homeowner's associations that are much more restrictive than that. I have three hens, I do consider my neighbors and therefore do not have a rooster. I keep things very neat, clean, and tidy. As that old saying goes, "There is moderation in all things."


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## mshow

our city is trying to pass a law that you cant have chickens or any other animal in city limits but dogs/cat. you have to have so much yard and the other thing is if you have them you have to register them and when they die you are not allowed to replace them. They have not passed this yet. I think they have to many kinks to work out of it first.


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## trey1432

I oppose permits as it is a way for cities to bring in extra cash. Historically these haven't been needed - my parents had chickens while they were growing up and sold the eggs. In the same breath I can see how cities can use it to help offset the cost with enforcement of the humane treatment of the birds. Have we seen Animal Hoarders on TV?

Wichita allows permit free for three birds or less. A coop has certain stipulations as well - I'll post them? If one has more than three birds it is a $25 annual fee, paid when I pay my dog fees.


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## thewarriorchild

no you shouldnt need one


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## sheryl

here is Australia we have to register our dogs we are not allowed roosters in suburbs, I am all for educating the public on how to look after animals properley so if this is what permits will bring then yes I agree to have them!
sheryl miller
canberra 
australia


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## ScottV

I feel like citizens are regulated too much already. I surely don't think there should be permits required to raise chickens. They're chickens, not Pit Bulls. Lol


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## pattybass

*chicken permits*

I feel requiring a permit to have chickens is a complete waste of everyones time and money. I can only assume that for business there are already regulations in place. Therefore if an individual has enough hens and chickens to qualify as a business then YES they should follow and abide by the fees already set in place. NO more taxes! this only keeps honest people honest. Dog licensing doesnt stop cruelty and abuse or neglect or puppy mills nor i bet does it generate enough income to police itself! on the flip side a license just might keep a youngster from getting an easter chick that just might die and cripple the child emotionally for life( said with my tongue firmly in my cheek)


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## animalduck

Bar code on chicken necks.......Big brother is watching you HAHAHA


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## bakarate

I could see a city ordinance preventing owning a rooster and limiting the amount of chickens one owns within city limits. Either way it will be self imposed. They will never be able to enforce it! There are bigger problems than backyard chickens. If there is an ordinance if someone complains the municipality can take punitive action. But a permit is just a tax. Government at all levels should stay out of our lives. People saying they are for it. Really


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## khakicat

*response to poll*

The question was very general so I had to answer yes. If I lived in a neighborhood, then yes, some rules would have to apply...
(and I did) 
Then we moved out to the country and the rules changed. It all depends upon the area. County vs city.
You want your neighbors to be happy and you as well


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## SueEllen_k

*Yes*

In our city if you have a dog, it has to be licensed. If you want to raise chickens within city limits, you can raise 3 with no rooster. Seems reasonable to me.
Now, if we moved to the country, there would be no need for a permit.

I don't even see it as a way for the city to get money. The fee really isn't that large, and they want to make sure that the structure you build isn't an eyesore.

We will be building our coop in the spring. That's when we will get our (3) pullets.
We have raised hundreds of chickens in the past, but we had acreage. Here in the city we have a nice sized back yard, and our neighbor is absolutly thrilled that we will be raising a few chickens.


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## Mahonri

Sad but I had to get a permit for my chickens in Phoenix. Not only that, I had to get my neighbors to sign a permission paper, allowing me to have chickens and it had to be notarized. 

Shucks, I wish they had to have a permit for the huge trees in their yard that CONSTANTLY dump leaves, blossoms, limbs and seeds into my swimming pool.

I also had to get rid of my roosters... I have two right now but they aren't crowing at present. I'm hoping I can at least have a few fertile eggs to hatch come December.

Unfortunately, we live in the era of BIG BROTHER. If we are stupid enough to put folks in power that would pass a health care overhaul that would ruin our country, I can imagine cities and towns can pass regulations about our chickens. I just need to buy some more land and move to the country I suppose.


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## jeanh

Fionastu said:


> We in Western Australia, are only allowed to keep 12 chooks. You cannot keep a rooster or geese in the suburbs, larger plots out of the suburbs can. .


Is that limit of 12 state wide or just in your shire? I am well over that but we are on 100 acres and rural land. We also have 4 guinea fowl and a rescue goose and they all get on great. Our recent acquisition a Light Sussex rooster does not seem to make a noise before 7am but I do not think anyone lives close enough to hear him anyway.


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## thewhisperingoaks

I don't think you should have to have permits, it's just another money grab, then they would hire more people to deal with code enforcement. I think they should just write their city codes stating the local law.


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## jn4

I didnt vote because I can see both sides of this. If in the city,..and no limits are set as to how many and what types of birds are kept,..it could lead to problems such as noise and health/disease issues........Vietnam and Thailand recently had to destroy millions of birds living in close proximity to humans due to the avian flu virus issue. Thats a big concern.

Now the other side of this is the issue of more intrusive govt. We all have more than enough govt. in our life now....ranging from what we eat to what we hear/see in the news and media to even what we do behind closed doors in the privacy of our own homes.

Im more of a libertarian minded person who sees Govt. for what it is....Force and total Control......100% compliance and resistance is futile. According to them!!
That Governmental attitude has brought us a NWO system that demands total compliance....and as history teaches ....will sow the flamable seeds of an armed resistance when its ran its full course.....

My answer?? Permits......NO!!


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## cindy

it's just another way to get your money..........stay tuned they are thinking up more ways as we speak to steal your hard earned cash right out of your pockets.
we should put all the politicians on minimum wage and see how fast things change!


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## FairWinds

My initial thought is that a chicken permit does seem to be a bit silly. However, chickens can be a nuisance. If they are not properly maintained, fed, and housed they can get into the neighbors yard and do serious "damage"...even if that damage is just chasing the lady of the house around because she might have food. I think the trick to fighting this sort of licensing (because essentially that's what it is) is to support any local, reputable, chicken club that offers lobbying to the local governing bodies. I live on 144 acres in the middle of nowhere so I don't think I will have to bother with this anytime soon. However, if I did, I would start by printing up a nice flyer with all of the benefits of chickens (ie less bugs, good fertilizer if they're contained to collect, fresh eggs, kids project)and giving that to my neighbors as education. Also be sure to differentiate between quite and calm hens and loud and boisterous roosters. Some would say, why bring it to there attention in the first place? My response i s, I'd rather know up front that my neighbor has a problem with chickens than to get attached to all my hens and name them and then have to go into some long drawn out litigation because it turns out FooFoo's owner has developed a chicken "allergy". If your town is trying to instate one of these rules, or it's coming up to vote a repeal then do the same thing, get with the local chicken groups and start lobbying to the citizens. The more you know about your chickens and their benefits the better to convince those ignorant of the might chicken. I'd say take a chicken with you to prove how docile they are, but I'd imagine that would depend on where you had to go *grins* Now I'm off to the barn! TTFN


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## cindy

imposing permits isn't going to keep chickens out of yards or keep them from smelling etc... the bottom line is money and the fact the powers that be do not want us to be even the least bit self reliant! here's a couple of pictures from my local Safeway and I know things are just going to get worse, there for I prepare by canning,storing as much food and supplies as I can and my ladies are a big part of my self reliance. I think being the owner of any animal is a big responsibility and should be taken care of with a little common sense, I live in the boonies and do not keep roosters for the simple fact that one neighbor does'nt like to hear them crow so out of respect I choose not to have them I'd like to think if the shoe was on the other foot they would do the same for me.


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## Craftincowgirl

I don't believe they should require permits, but they should regulate how many or whether to allow roosters. This is good for the chickens, also, because some people abuse privelages and would have too many and possibly make it unhealthy for the birds. Also, some people live in town because they simply don't want to live in the country and be around livestock and animals.


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## dfwquiltr37

what is the permit being used for? To know how many chickens are at a residence in a city setting? For someone that lives in the city that wants to get more involved in a breeding program? That I can see so that the person or family does not start getting over whelmed and the neighbors do not get mad. 

In The country atleast where I live most of us get NPIP certifications, Fowl and Game License because we want to make sure the birds we do buy and bring into our flocks are tested. And not just some one selling chickens at a flea market trying to pass thier flock off and as healthy when they are not. If the Permit is for Legit reason's Okay. If not then I saw why try and fix something that is not broke.


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## vickiw

Comparing dogs and cats to poultry is comparing apples to oranges. On that note, here in WI many municipalities have regulated (aka licensed) dogs and many now even cats, setting limits on the numbers allowed of both, for both common sense and to control hoarding. Our state now requires a special license statewide to own more than a certain number of dogs. This was put into place in an attempt to eliminate "puppy mills". 

As for poultry, sometimes well-intentioned (city/suburban dwelling) folks just get carried away, going beyond what common sense and their properties can support for both the health and well-being of the birds and themselves, not to mention the well-being and sanity of their near neighbors. If you choose to live in a city, you must understand it's limitations. Should poultry be banned? Absolutely not! Should the numbers be regulated? Absolutely!

One issue I have not seen brought up here is predation. This can be a threat to everyone. The more prey animals you add (aka chickens, ducks, bunnies, etc.), the more likely you are to attract preditors, even within a city. (This has become a huge problem in the west). These are not only a threat to our beloved chickies, but also to our cats, dogs, domestic birds, etc. along with the diseases they carry, and (in the case of bear and coyote) a threat to ourselves and children. Don't forget that skunks love eggs. Just a thought.


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## Izzymoon

Depending on the community, Having permits allows the town/city to know who has livestock/poultry and who doesn't. Not so much for noise control like for a rooster, but more if there was an outbreak of something which effected poultry and they would need to notify those that had them. My town just shrugged there shoulders when I asked about permits, but they did want a permit for a coop larger than a doghouse. I think it's a good idea to know who has poultry, as wild birds (turkeys, ducks, geese) have all sorts of diseases that might kill your flock. I would certainly like to know if 10 ducks in our lake died, before I read it in the local weekly paper. So I am not against the idea, if it keeps my girls safe. But it should be a cheap fee like $10.00 not anything higher like dog licenses. Speaking of which, they do have those in case a dog was to get rabies, which is just as dangerous as asian bird flu IMO


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## Kathy

I think permits are rediculous. Unfortunately, I believe it is also a way to find out who has chickens and force people to have them tested for the avian flu. Then they would have a reason to come on your property and seize your birds if they so choose. Most "officials" Are against free roaming also because of contact of wild birds. My chickens and guineas roam free!!!


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## KatB

Permits and registration are ridiculous--and a flex of the local government muscle. They regulate your dogs. In my city they want me to register my cats... since mine are indoor cats--WHY? They don't go outside, they don't impact the environment, they don't go into neighbors' yards or catch songbirds...etc. They limit the number of chickens I can have now. But, if they went to permits, I would probably sell out and move. My chickens have an enormous pen (14x65) at the top of a 1/3 acre yard...nowhere near any neighbor house. My hens don't smell, they make very little noise--WAY less in fact, than the 3 dogs on one side, and 2 dogs on the other who perpetually bark, howl and cry at doors and I have no roosters--out of respect for my neighbors and their sleep patterns. (Wish they would do the same for me with their dogs.) The hay from the coop and the pen go straight into the garden at the end of the season, so nobody can complain about the trash or smelly stuff. The only thing that crows right now is my little quail roo--and it is a tiny crow (and kinda funny) and sounds more like some of the wild birds around here.
No--I am not in favor of permits or the government sticking its nose-local or otherwise- into my business on my own land.


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## nakedneckmamma

Even us who don't have permits keep everything clean just cause I don't need one or have to have one does not mean we don't keep things clean. Course we do.. I live right outside of town like a block . I have friends who live in town they keep their area clean and chicken poop free. It's a thin wire I guess


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## BuckeyeChickens

My two cents really doesn't matter because I don't live in the "city" anymore....I moved to the country in order to have chickens, goats and livestock and in my opinion the "city" is NOT the place for livestock (chickens are NOT pets in my mind either)! When I lived in the "city" I'm NOT sure I would be happy that my neighbor who was so close to me was raising a small flock of chickens....people who live in the "city" are NOT accustomed to livestock smells and noise so I would NEVER have chickens living in the "city" (this is why I moved). I voted NO on the permits because I disagree with government regulations but the solution is NOT to complain here, VOTE the fools out of office who put permits in place and remove the permit requirement....or MOVE to a place like the country where livestock is the norm!!!


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## Tony-O

Farmermama said:


> I don't think anyone should need a permit if they're in an agricultural area. I do think maybe the ownership of roosters might need to be regulated if you have neighbors very close to you in an urban area.


Why would regulationns for the ownership of roosters be needed _unless_ the obnoxious all night barking dogs are regulated?


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## Homegirl

Our area is open-use zoning so we can do anything we want. However, Asheville City has permit requirements. It is fairly simple. No Roos, fencing distances, Animal Control reviews coop and yard. Permit covers also household pets. I do think unfortunately, in the city where folks live in close proximity, there needs to be some guidelines. Because there is always the one person who would put 500 chickens in a 5 foot square coop and never do poop duty...sad but true.


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## Goldenglitter

Wow, i just read almost all of the replies so far..
It's really interesting to hear from members all the world over on this topic. I'm very much against permits as they seem to be nothing more than another tax and they offer nothing positive for the birds or their keepers. 
If permits are to be of use, they should surely carry rules about the birds' welfare, space, housing, shelter from elements, that sort of thing. They ought to be enforceable by a visiting inspector, preferably someone who has knowledge of poultry being given employment.
Other than that, what possible use is it to pay a set amount per bird to be permitted to keep them?

Luckily, here I dont need a permit, but i wouldnt put it past my government to tax my chickens next!


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## iChicken

I used to live in a small town that had no permit system for animals. License required for dogs & cats to prove Rabies vac. was all. Then they decided to go with a list of approved animals allowed inside the city limits and also the number. Chickens were allowed but only 10 per household. Don't remember what the rule was about roosters. They allowed all kinds of animals, but not horses, of which I had 2 in my big back yard. Got a ticket in my mailbox for an illegal resident (horse). Wish I had kept it. Seems goats were ok, but not pigs or adult cattle. They also didn't want peacocks. A noise thing I guess. A smaller township I lived in only allowed dogs or cats. You were allowed birds, but they had to be kept inside, so I guess that ruled out chickens and allowed only for parrots etc. Having allowed animals listed with limits and types, seems fairer than being required to buy a permit. Now I live in the country so it is not an issue. Despite the acreage around us, I can still hear roos and the occasional peacock, but also hear donkeys, coyotes and dogs, along with an occasional Bobcat or mountain lion - oh yes & wild pigs too. Ahh the peace & quiet of the country!


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## jschoolcraft

where I live a permit is required but I can't get one because the yard is too small. But the chickens dont bother anybody and I bribe my landlords with eggs so they dont care


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## ChrisC

I don't like the idea of a permit, however if it opens doors for those not allowed to keep chickens and makes it legal, I can accept it.

The more we grow in numbers the better off we will be.


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## dziomek

I too am not voting for either side, as I can see both sides of it as well. Self-sufficiency means raising as much as one's own food as possible, but one also has to keep in mind the numbers factor. Many people will try to house more than just a few chickens, and as was stated in an earlier post, this can lead to severe consequences if numbers get too high and the living conditions of the chickens are not kept clean.

It is very easy to purchase a box of say, 50 baby chicks - but many fail to realize they grow quickly and many times their original size. Overcrowding can quickly occur which can lead to noise, smell and disease. 

Municipalities do have a certain right and obligation to keep their towns safe, but some do push it a bit too far. I personally live in the country so a permit is not required. There is a fine line between licensing and allowing some animals but not others. The more I think about it, perhaps chickens are meant for the country moreso than an urban setting. Dogs and cats are hard enough to look after in town; chickens (especially if you want to let them be free-range) are a whole new ball game.


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## ORChicknlady

My son works at a feed store and has had access at times, to some customers yards where they are keeping their chickens. They have too many and it is a smelly disgusting mess. We are in a rainy part of the state (Western Oregon), and you all know how chickens can tear up any plant life on the ground. If they are in a small location, a lot of them can take all plant life out leaving it just dirt, well around here it becomes mud, breeds coccidiosis and other parasites because the chickens will defacate in it, and this will get worked in sit in that mud for about 6 months...then the warm weather comes, the flies break out....

We took about 18 hens from one guy who had them in close quarters, it was nothing more than mud and chicken droppings several inches think, it smelled outrageoulsy bad. Those chickens were never quite well, we battled all sorts of health problems with them and eventually wound up having to get rid of them, they kept getting our other healthy hens sick. Once they were gone, our flock was ok again.

So...knowing this gave me the perspective that not all people take care of things the way they should and it is not good for the chickens or the people living around the chickens. Sick animals mean sick meat or eggs too.

Permits in larger populated areas simply mean their is money to fund people to manage the ones who will not take care of things the way they should. I know most of us do and have a hard time seeing the necessity of it, but once you have seen someone who lives in the city with a modest yard, crowd in too many chickens, let it get filthy and never clean up, you will see why permits can be useful only if to battle those within cities who won't clean up.

On the other side of that on tags for dogs or cats. I am for tags for dogs only because I have seen all too many roaming around making messes in other peoples yard and on public grounds (cats do bury, although they do not find good spots always to go..say someones prized vegetable garden). I have had someones dogs come into my yard and go after my chickens, killing several, and in their frenzy go after my daughter. I have had other dogs go after my cats too, or one of us. Owners aplenty who have them in their yards who never clean up (gross, gross and double gross), or have too many dogs and never clean, everyone in the area can smell that on a warm summers day...

BTW, for those in the cities with chickens here's a way to keep the flies away and break down your chickens droppings...diatomaceous earth sprinkled all over their area. It will help break down those droppings and kill any flies who try to be around (the microscopic particles get under their exoskeleton and break it up). Even if the hens consume it the benefits are it is a natural dewormer.


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## Julienkc

Permits aren't required here, and I'n happy they aren't. If I was somewhere chickens weren't allowed I'd rather get a permit and get chickens than not be able to have them though.


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## ebygum32

I can see a point in this as I have seen lots of chickens kept in small pens like the ones you can get off eBay yes they are ok for houses but don't keep them locked in the pens all day give them somewhere to walk around and scrat also some don't have grass they are just sat on mud which doesn't stimulate the birds, I had five birds and have a house big enough for 8-10 birds, the house is sat in a pen that measures 10 metres x 7 metres which means the birds have room to run and play about, have also put few branches in there so they can climb onto them and have a shaded area if they just want to sit out of the sun. Some of these pens that are being sold are 2 x1 metres and they say hold eight birds but they are just crammed in these are more battery than free range. 

But for permits it might get these people thinking about the size of accommodation that they are keeping there birds in.


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## ricepaddydaddy

I voted for no permits. Permits automatically mean code enforcement agents can come on your property anytime without permission, without warrants. Just another opportunity for government harrasment and "code compliance."
This was the biggest reason farmers (big and small) fought so hard against the national animal ID act. This would have required the registration and tagging of ALL livestock, even a single chicken, and required all animals to be tracked and reported to the federal government. Federal agents, under this law, would have had the power to "insure compliance" by entering your property, searching your property, auditing your animal records, etc all without warrants. After much lobbying and debate this bill was defeated. But like a bad horror movie it still tries to rise from the dead. We must remain vigilant.
Where we live we are zoned OR - Open Rural, which means pretty much no rules. We have a county ordinance which limits the number of horses per acre, number of dogs per household, etc. Chickens are not regulated, some of the farmers here abouts were Tyson contract growers and would have several hundred thousand birds.
I voted for personal liberty and freedom - no permits.


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## LdMorgan

Chicken permits are just another governmental power-grab and an assault on personal freedom. There should be no permits associated with any aspect of home food production. 
If a person keeps chickens in an inhumane or unsanitary manner (as with horses or any other animal) there are already legal procedures in place to deal with that form of misconduct.

If the government has the power to give or withold their licence for you to have a chicken, how long will it be before they want the power to give or withold their licence for you to have a garden?

Oh-wait! Silly me! They already _want_ to dictate whether you have a garden. And where you have it, what you grow in it, and what you do with what comes out of it.

Did I mention that this is an election year?


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## yokohamamama

the only permit you should need is FOR selling stock


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## snide

Here there is no permits to raise chickens if you live in the county. However, in the the city, there is an ordinance requires you to do so, also limiting your birds per space requirements I believe. It's a free permit and more of a health issue thing, along with their kennel permits so on and so forth.


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## quackstitch

no permits-- government is trying to control every single aspect of your lives-- you should be able to have chickens just as you should be able to have a garden-- maybe a rule such as no roosters in the city--- you are taxed enough as it is, and that's what it would be, just another way to get your money, same as dog licenses


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## MariaElena

Thankfully, our city doesn't require permits for chickens; they do have a limit on how many, and stipulations on how far from a neighbor's door they must be kept, but we are free to raise backyard flocks. Our neighbors don't mind our small flock, including the rooster who wakes everyone up every morning. They like the feeling of nature being so close. I believe that the less government bureaucracy is involved, the better. Tax dollars are better spent on dog shelters for all the abandoned pets.


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## ORChicknlady

> I'd say take a chicken with you to prove how docile they are,


Then I better not take one of my "peckish" Rhode Island Reds down to any city hall meetings, they would prove otherwise!!LOL (Me reaching in for an egg, hen screeching at me, I go to grab her out of box, she reaches around and snags the side of my hand hard with her beak...I promptly pull hen out of nesting box and give her a whop with the empty egg basket...).


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## ChickenMansion

*Taxation without Representation*

Ithink this is becoming prevalent in our society, big brother. I understand the mentality to permit tostop the bad eggs, but I really don't think that is the answer, irresponsible owners will have "contra banned chickens" anyway. It is usually the responsible people that pay, the politicians know this is their tax base and money. Only responsible people follow the law. I might get heck for saying this but, it's like gun laws, only the responsible people will have a background checks a gun permit, criminals are criminals and will always be underground/blackmarkets. Kinda like chicken permits. Fundamentally I am opposed to permitting, just anothertax. I am taxed on everything I do and buy, heck the government even regulatesmy toilet and taxes my sewer.


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## CathyCountry

There's nothing wrong with ordinances in the city. We have pet ordinances precisely because of people who have 50 cats, or 20 dogs, on small residential lots. They become a nuisance and a health hazard, and it's cruel to the animal; when you live with people, there have to be some boundaries so that everyone can have the reasonable expectation of being able to enjoy their own property. Without ordinances, including permits in some cases, there will be people who raise chickens for profit, and I can see little 1/4 acre lots being overrun with chickens in no time. I'd love to have enough chickens to make a living, but that would require more chickens than my lot can support; that wouldn't stop some people. Laws are not usually made out of the imagination, but because someone, somewhere, made them a necessity. 

Our chicken ordinance is still fairly new, but has been met with great success. To get the permit, we had to attend a "backyard chickens" class where we were educated about the ins and outs of the law, as well as given good information about raising chickens. It was a pain, since we'd already done our homework, but I couldn't help but note that some people in the class certainly had not. Consider how many people get "cute" puppies and kitties that end up in shelters when the animal grows up and they discover how much more is involved in their care than they knew or were prepared for. I find our requirements to be fairly reasonable; if you don't like the ones where you live, then lobby your council for different ones.


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## Energyvet

Well said CathyCountry. Knowledge is the foundation of any successful enterprise. And there are always those people that carry things to the extreme and become the problem for local governments and neighbors. Protecting the citizens from the other citizens is a big part of any government's responsibilities. That being said...this backyard chicken movement is the best thing I've seen in a very long time on 100 different levels. But like Cathy said a lot of people jump in with very little information and then the birds suffer for it.


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## sharkbait

I live "out in the country" and the cows cause way more problems then the chickens so it is not a issue where we live. I do think in a city zone where room is a issue it has a place just to keep people from trying to raise more than it is sanitary for the room they have. Who should set that number that is the real problem. Just my opinion...


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## luvinmychickens

Where I live, you have to have a permit....and we do have one.  it's really not that big of a deal..


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## luvinmychickens

But it is crazy to need to have a permit for some CHICKENS. I'm in the city, so it is acceptable...IMO.. Because of cock fighting and such.


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## jammc236

*Chicken permits ?*

No permits just make sure you have enough space.


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## trey1432

I forgot - they don't allow Roosters in Wichita.


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## ruralpolitan

We are zoned agricultural so no need for a permit. However former city dwellers are encroaching on the small farms in this part of the county and they want to bring in their own limits and recreate the city regulations they had. We have bees too and one neighboring business is a little skittish. I do not see the need for a permit but can understand cities and towns could see it as a money grab in these days of shrinking revenue.


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## ORChicknlady

Outside of a larger population, it would be ridiculous for a permit. As for it being an actual permit, Portland allows three hens, no roosters, per owner/lot. Any more chickens than this is a permit.

Ordinances or permits in cities are a way for it to be controlled more simply because as many have said, for sanitation purposes. Too many chickens in a small plot and it becomes smelly, messy and a fly attraction.

We have about 3/4 of an acre field, fenced, with a modest (40'x10') horse barn converted for the chickens. This is plenty of space for them to go out and not be able to tear it all up quickly as would be with a smaller space. Our inside area is fantastic for them, I think their roosting bar we made is about 7 feet long with 6 bars going up to about 5 feet. There is ample space for them inside the barn when the weather is bad, and still not have a huge mess. 

My point offering this information is, we have 19 chickens in all, plus 12 more young pullets in a seperate pen. This is more than enough and will allow for their droppings outside be taken care of by nature without a buildup, and also give time between barn cleanings since it is distributed between outdoors and inside. I have seen people try to keep larger numbers of chickens in small pens and small coops and it not good.

The other thing people, as we have had to do, is consider their neighbors. If you start seeing a fly problem in your area, then assume your neighbors are and fix it, and be sure to let them know you are. Permethrin seems to be the most preffered method and is residual. Needs to be done as prescribed but will help kill the flies and break life cycles and of course breeding.


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## swainsrus

Another government control wrapping around our necks. A permit? Seriously? It's wrong and just one more way to take away our freedoms. I don't need to apply for a permit to raise chickens. It's wrong, unneccesary and against my rights.


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## javamilk99

I live in a rural county. When I bought this house, I had to sign an addendum that said I knew I was in an agricultural area and that someone may decide to plop a chicken house down next to my property. MD's Eastern Shore is where Tyson, Perdue and Mountaire have a lot of their facilities. (I also had to sign one that said someone could open a seafood operation near me - crabs and oysters are our other famous products)
With that being said, I did have to register my flock with the state. Just in case of chicken diseases and such, like the outbreak a few years ago. I don't think permits are required in the nearest town to me; livestock is completely banned in the town I used to live in.


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## cl_dewey

I think we are forgetting that chicken lovers like the ppl on this forum are responsible owners. Not all ppl are. Our chicken ordinance got revoked because a man had used one of his empty rental houses to raise meat chickens. Almost 40,000 of them. It caught fire and that's how the police found out. He was selling these birds to ppl to self butcher. This is an extreme case, but it shows how ppl are about money. It's not safe for ppl it birds, and its inhumane. The city put out slit of money for the fire and cleanup, and got sued by some ppl for allowing livestock in town. A permit would require someone to read and sign the ordinance so they know the rules, or at least cover the city's, and in return taxpayers, butt.


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## Westelle

I think it would be a good thing to register chickens and other birds as well as those who raise or house rodents that could be carriers of deadly diseases...like the avian flu from birds...hanavirus (sp? ) from rodents and mad cow disease from cattle. I know a lot of people feel like govenment controls too much in their lives...but I feel we should be more concerned for the greater poplulation's health and welfare.


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## Riverdale

crazychickenlady said:


> You don't need a permit for a cat or dog...and they can be more disruptive to the neighbors than chickens. Crazy!


Most places do have liscences for dogs, and more are liscencing cats


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## Riverdale

My hometown just passed an ordinance that one can have 5 hens, no roos in side the city limits.

I am prolly going to say something unpopular right now.

I disagree with need to permit chickens

*BUT*

People who move into a suburban area and then start raising chickens are no different than city people that move to the middle of an agricultural area and complain about the smell od manure and the dust and sound of tractors.

Follow the local ordinances. To the 'T'.

If one had been raising chickens, and an 'anti-chicken' ordinance was passed later, there is a good chance that one would be grandfathered in with the highest count of chickens they could actually document.

My 2 cents worth.


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## Elkie1

While I can see limiting Roosters (though I may not like it) because of the a.m. noise Chickens are much less noisy than my neighbor's dogs who bark all night and less annoying than cats who use my vege garden for a littler box! I am against permits for chickens as a general rule.

But in the name of open mindedness, I understand the thought process behind asking for one. 

Towns/cities have hit hard times too and are looking for every option to raise revenue or at least offset increased expenses for a certain activity. The sad fact is that as chicken keeping becomes more popular in cities and everywhere, there will be more abused, starving, maltreated chickens for animal control to deal with as well. And that means utilizing a cities limited resources in money, space and manpower. If a small fee was all that was standing in the way of keeping chickens, I would gladly pay it and it would be worth every penny! I would just consider it a donation to take care of all the abandoned, abused and starving animals!


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## tdepointe

Riverdale said:


> Most places do have liscences for dogs, and more are liscencing cats


Just because more places are requiering registration does not make it right. Most places that do requier registration are only doing it for the revinue steam.


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## tdepointe

Westelle said:


> I think it would be a good thing to register chickens and other birds as well as those who raise or house rodents that could be carriers of deadly diseases...like the avian flu from birds...hanavirus (sp? ) from rodents and mad cow disease from cattle. I know a lot of people feel like govenment controls too much in their lives...but I feel we should be more concerned for the greater poplulation's health and welfare.


More govenment is not the answer to all problem, more often than not it is the problem. Are you suggesting that not only should we be requiered to get a permit for our chickens but also be suject to inspections and more regulations?


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## castillofa

Westelle said:


> I think it would be a good thing to register chickens and other birds as well as those who raise or house rodents that could be carriers of deadly diseases...like the avian flu from birds...hanavirus (sp? ) from rodents and mad cow disease from cattle. I know a lot of people feel like govenment controls too much in their lives...but I feel we should be more concerned for the greater poplulation's health and welfare.


That is the very excuse that any government uses to take away our individual rights. It is more important that everyone practice personal responsibility and allow our rule of law take precedent. Should an irresponsible individual fail to do their part for any of their livestock or pets, then they, as individuals, should be punished. Not the rest of us be punished for what a individual may or may not do.

Permitting laws never stay in their intended locals, but continue to grow as the cities do. Remember that next time there is a proposed annexation near you. Those folks are than eager to thrust upon you their ways, instead of being tolerant of yours.


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## Riverdale

Elkie1 said:


> Towns/cities have hit hard times too and are looking for every option to raise revenue or at least offset increased expenses for a certain activity. The sad fact is that as chicken keeping becomes more popular in cities and everywhere, there will be more abused, starving, maltreated chickens for animal control to deal with as well. And that means utilizing a cities limited resources in money, space and manpower. If a small fee was all that was standing in the way of keeping chickens, I would gladly pay it and it would be worth every penny! I would just consider it a donation to take care of all the abandoned, abused and starving animals!


Elkie, you are saying what I am saying in the "silly" thread. 

Which is why I get a lot of free bunnies about a month after Easter.


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## Riverdale

tdepointe said:


> Just because more places are requiering registration does not make it right. Most places that do requier registration are only doing it for the revinue steam.


In my county of residence, intact dogs are $45 @ every 2 years. Dogs that have been spayed or nuetered (with a note from the vet) are $5 for life.

All liscence fees help fund the animal control.


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## Westelle

Mostly...if one farm or chicken comes in conta t with a crow with the. H1N1 virus...all chickens/ birds would be subject to culling...Did you watch contagion?...


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## Westelle

I am not addressing the need to be registered for the fee portion of it...but rather for notification of flock holding individuals IF a contagious virus comes to a region...Kind of like kids and vacinations...parents who choose not to vaccinate have that right...but they subject their kids and others that don't vaccinate or complete vaccination series to sometimes deadly illnesses....

Mostly I would like people to be able to be located and be able to be notified if quarantine is neccessary for a species of animals that might carry deadly diseases...that's all...not as a USDA requirement...I think if you sell eggs...you should be subject to inspection..why shouldn't you as a hobby chicken person selling eggs be treated any different to commercial sellrrs...


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## cl_dewey

That's true. I think that's why mainstream consumers won't buy from the.small producer. They don't understand that idea certification can be costly and difficult. They view it.as unsafe, like they have something to hide. I have never tried producing any more than for my family and relatives for this reason.


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## fintuckyfarms

I live "out in the sticks", a good 15 minutes from most regulations. Not even required to license the dogs. There is some limitations on how many animals per acre but I've never seen it enforced unless there is abuse.


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## Aphrodite

Just another revenue earner for the government. How does it really assist the community by having to need a permit? it doesn't. just hinders humans from attempting to more self sufficient and less reliant on the economy. so the capitalists have to get their bite of the cake no matter how hard you try to leave them out of it.


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## shireyk

Chickens provide food for my family, next thing you know we will need a permit to go to the grocery store.


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## swilgus

*City Permits*

Mixed thoughts here: the % who are excessive and unsanitary always leads to a Law or Regulation coming out of the mess. The rest of us who are careful and clean, we need no such regulations.

So it begs the question are the regulations necessary? I hate to say it but "yes", most likely they WILL happen: so we must get involved in the inception as proactive contributors rather than victims we will most likely become if left to the ignorant: look at the plethora of insane Firearm laws and hyper-reactions...


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## TheLazyL

swilgus said:


> Mixed thoughts here: the % who are excessive and unsanitary always leads to a Law or Regulation coming out of the mess....look at the plethora of insane Firearm laws and hyper-reactions...


Agreed.

Common courtesy dictates you slow and look both ways before entering an intersection.

But one day the "village idiot" drove straight thru the intersection without looking and caused a fatality. Law suits were filed and in turn the Village Elders passed a law to post STOP signs.

Another "village idiot" thought it was stupid law for the stop signs, ignored the Stop sign and caused another accident.
So the village Elders installed stop lights and hired Elmer toenforce the stop sign law. Elmer didn'twant to work for free so the Village Elders instituted a tax on thevillage citizens to pay Elmer's salary, a police car and administration costs.

Before they knew it the village citizens were paying a lot oftheir income in taxes to support a full time Elder, Police Department, Ambulances, hospital staff and all that goes with government.

Chicken permits become a necessity when a few "village idiots" don't show common courtesy towards their neighbors or ignore the laws.


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## baldoldude

Lucky for me the small town I live in (275 population) does not require any permits, and I hope it stays this way.


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## dirtbath

*Right to Farm*

Does anyone know about the Right to Farm Act? Seems like we all should be able to raise whatever chickens we want based on this.


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## kaytee

swilgus said:


> Mixed thoughts here: the % who are excessive and unsanitary always leads to a Law or Regulation coming out of the mess. The rest of us who are careful and clean, we need no such regulations.
> 
> So it begs the question are the regulations necessary? I hate to say it but "yes", ....


The other problem, as I see it, is that it is becoming a "fad".

And there are people who just have to keep up with the Jones'-- their co-worker gets a new car-- they have to trade in theirs for a even fancier one. Their cousin goes to Europe on vacation-- they max out their credit cards so they can see Paris, too. Their neighbor gets a couple of chickens-- they get four... despite working full time, and having to ferry their kids to various after school sports, music lessons, etc. And after a couple of months, the "thrill" of being able to brag they have fresh eggs daily is gone, and it's a chore to take care of messy, stinky birds-- the ones their purebred, bored Corgi hadn't killed (yet), so they kind of "set them free"... maybe toss them over the fence to their neighbor... maybe just "forget" to put them in their coop after allowing them out for a bit of "free ranging"....


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## Energyvet

I think that sums it up pretty well. That's one of the reasons I'm sort of hesitating. I'm starting a new job, going through a divorce, and I'm not sure how the finances will shake out. My son is in his second year of college (52K a yr.) and I'm just not sure I could handle chickens at the moment much as I would love to jump right in. And yeah, I think permits are a good idea because most people need guidelines.


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## Riverdale

dirtbath said:


> Does anyone know about the Right to Farm Act? Seems like we all should be able to raise whatever chickens we want based on this.


A pdf file of Michigan's

http://legislature.mi.gov/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-Act-93-of-1981.pdf

A misconception many people have is what "Right to Farm" means.

What it actually does is protect farms from nuisance lawsuits, not letting people do things all willy-nilly.

Here is the important part

*286.473 Farm or farm operation as public or private nuisance; review and revision of practices; finding; conditions.

Sec. 3. (1) A farm or farm operation shall not be found to be a public or private nuisance if the farm or
farm operation alleged to be a nuisance conforms to generally accepted agricultural and management
practices according to policy determined by the Michigan commission of agriculture. Generally accepted
agricultural and management practices shall be reviewed annually by the Michigan commission of agriculture
and revised as considered necessary.
(2) A farm or farm operation shall not be found to be a public or private nuisance if the farm or farm
operation existed before a change in the land use or occupancy of land within 1 mile of the boundaries of the
farm land, and if before that change in land use or occupancy of land, the farm or farm operation would not
have been a nuisance.
(3) A farm or farm operation that is in conformance with subsection (1) shall not be found to be a public or
private nuisance as a result of any of the following:
(a) A change in ownership or size.
(b) Temporary cessation or interruption of farming.
(c) Enrollment in governmental programs.
(d) Adoption of new technology.
(e) A change in type of farm product being produced.
History: 1981, Act 93, Imd. Eff. July 11, 1981;¾Am. 1987, Act 240, Imd. Eff. Dec. 28, 1987;¾Am. 1995, Act 94, Eff. Sept. 30,
1995.*

The most important part is

generally accepted agricultural and management practices according to policy determined by the Michigan commission of agriculture. 

Putting 25 chickens in a backyard in a community does not meet this criteria, therefore one is *NOT* protected by RtF.

Some people don't like it. All I can say is 'tough'. One needs to either follow the local zoning, or go someplace which fits their needs.

Your rights to do things surely do not outweigh *my* rights.

That is something to remember


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## Riverdale

kaytee said:


> The other problem, as I see it, is that it is becoming a "fad".
> 
> And there are people who just have to keep up with the Jones'-- their co-worker gets a new car-- they have to trade in theirs for a even fancier one. Their cousin goes to Europe on vacation-- they max out their credit cards so they can see Paris, too. Their neighbor gets a couple of chickens-- they get four... despite working full time, and having to ferry their kids to various after school sports, music lessons, etc. And after a couple of months, the "thrill" of being able to brag they have fresh eggs daily is gone, and it's a chore to take care of messy, stinky birds-- the ones their purebred, bored Corgi hadn't killed (yet), so they kind of "set them free"... maybe toss them over the fence to their neighbor... maybe just "forget" to put them in their coop after allowing them out for a bit of "free ranging"....


Like I said, I get a bunch of free bunnies a couple weeks after Easter.

Some people like being in a fad (I have several co-workers as an example). I have already had one (who got 15 straight runs chicks {8 pullets, 7 roos}) who has asked if I wanted all of them. For free. They did not lay eggs soon enough, they ate too much, and they had to be taken care of 

They will start laying in a week or two (I get $2 dozen for the eggs so another nearly 3 dozen per week).

The roos will go another 6 or 7 weeks (they are a combo of RIR and Barred Rocks), then wind up in 'freezer camp'.

Of the other 4 co-workers who are 'raising chickens' only one (a neighbor who looked at our set-up) will prolly last. The other 3, well he and I have plans to split them, when the other people 'tire' of their chickens......


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## BootedBantam

Lucky me. I live in Idaho and in my town we are allowed 10 chickens? But are they really counting? IDK


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## earlyt89

Idk if there are limits here. I don't care either. I have around 30 chickens. Sooooo BOOOOYAAAAA


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## rob

well i doubt the chicken police will come calling anytime soon


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## earlyt89

Let them come I will turn my gamecocks loose on them haha


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## BootedBantam

Ha Ha still laughing over the chicken police thing!! Can you imagine lol to go knocking on my two neighbors doors who I think he came from one of those houses. "Hello, yes, I am with the chicken police, Can I see your chickens please? I am currently looking for the owner who abandoned this roo" flash fake chicken badge and show pic of roo" Okay sir," here is a $100 ticket, to help me feed this roo..." he he in a good mood


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## Energyvet

That is a very funny image. Very funny. Still laughing. Probably will be all day. I really wanna see the badge. Hahahaha


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## Garminsdad

mamadice said:


> I can see the need for regulating how many chickens a person has within certain city limits, etc., but if you're out in the country, I see no need for permits or regulations. As long as they're not mistreated, I figure it's fine to have as many as you can comfortably raise.


I'm with you on all of this other then the regulations.. Some folks would buy a 1 acre plot and try to become chicken farmers. The smell of 50 chickens can be brutal if you are down wind of em.. There needs to be rules for the folks with no common sense. I hate to say it but it needs to be in place. How would you like to be beside a 50 or 100 chicken "farmer" and the smell roll over your home 24/7.. No thanks. I am willing to get my permit (be it a one time deal for them to check out and discuss with you what is allowed and what you want). If you want freedom to do as you please. Buy a farm. 160 acres..


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## BootedBantam

As it turns out, no roosters in my town. Ummm, we have several. I was told the rule of thumb around here, is long as neighbors don't complain, no worries. Great!! Thank God I know my neighbors. I'm hiding a fugitive!!


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## machinist

HAH!! SOME people should be required to pass a test before they have kids, for sure..... Chickens, nah.

The less government, the better. Dyed in the wool Libertarian here. I agree with Thomas Jefferson's idea about liberty: "YOUR freedom ends where MY nose begins". Of course personal responsibility goes along with that idea. In such a free society, everyone must have the right to redress for grievances against those who would mistreat him. 

Where chickens are concerned, I recall how it was in the late 1940's around here. Half the people in town had a few chickens, or rabbits, or both. Nobody griped about it, 'cuz it was such an important part of the food supply. Neighbors traded a dressed chicken or rabbit for something they had, etc.. That whole thing got going in the poor section of towns as the farm kids went to towns to find jobs, and continued throughout the Great Depression years. They made beer in the bathtub, made sauerkraut and wine in crocks in the cellar, and dug up the whole backyard, however tiny, and planted garden in it. Nobody minded, because they were doing something similiar.

It only went away after WWII, when folks began to have more money and got uppity because of it. The more broke a person is, it seems like the more tolerant they get. Now, we got kids that are spoiled rotten, and adults too.


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## BootedBantam

Did I mention...this sucks!! You can only have three animals in your home? I am already attached to this guy "( Watch, I will be the one person they choose to make an example out of!! Oh and read the fine print of that there permit......violate me, I'm keeping him ")


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## Energyvet

Does that mean 3 chickens or 3 pets total?


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## rob

3 pets ! thats a bit rough, what if you keep fish? who's gonna come and count anyway


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## BootedBantam

Three pets total! I live in an old town and everyone has animals...goats, lama, sheep..hell I'm in Idaho!! I called my Dad and told him what was going on. He told me don't worry, he will bail me out if anything happens. Roo's been on the front porch for 7 months, so he hasn't been reported. I was floored with what the pet permit said "who knew" I feel better knowing my Dad will help if I get in trouble, 'cause you know all they will want is $$$$$$


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## Energyvet

Isn't this chicken from a neighbor? (aka The Chicken Police). How many animals (read chickens) do they have?


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## BootedBantam

Pretty sure he did, where else could he have came from? Drive by drop off? I live in a small condensed community surrounded by HUGE farm land. I was very surprised by things I read on that permit. "Who knew" I live in a friendly community with dogs around everywhere. I assumed chicken friendly since I hear crows in two different directions. I can't see over the fences of the two people who have the chickens. lol I never owned chickens, what the heck do I know about chicken permits. After my experience, I see the need for rules and order, but as long you or your animals aren't causing any problems and neighbors don't complain I will be fine.


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## BootedBantam

I have been calling my rescue roo chicken, we now call him "outlaw"


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## Energyvet

I love that. Great and very appropriate name. Sounds rugged.


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## CackleHatchery

This is why we decided to change our minimum this year. So many people can't have the 15 requirements that we use to have. We had so many calls from new customers wanting 3 or 4 chickens (no roosters). I don't really see a problem with having your chickens in town as long as you are responsible for them and don't let them free range all over your neighbors lawn. We even have people that want one chicken as a pet, inside the home. This industry sure is changing from 75 years ago.


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## TinyHouse

Hey Cackle - do you allow visits to your hatchery? I'm about 2 1/2 hours from you and, maybe next spring, I could come and pick out some baby chicks and see your operation?


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## Mahonri

how do you unsubscribe from a thread. I don't ever remember subscribing to this thread?


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## TinyHouse

In the drop down at the top that says "Thread Tools" there's an "Unsubscribe from this Thread"


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## threadeater

aaargh, our town has very suspect bylaws that seem to have been implemented arbitrarily. There are working farms less than a 1/4 mile from my house but in my neighborhood I was told I could only have 4 chickens because folks can only have 4 dogs ( without a kennel license I assume). So I had to bring 4 of my chickens( I had 8) down the street to a farm!!! I understand the no roosters rule in the residential neighborhoods but really we're not talking 40 hens ....
The silly thing is, I think you could probably have 4 hens AND 4 dogs. Makes no sense to me and really upset me, my kids and my flock. One of my hens stopped laying after the other 4 left!


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## Energyvet

Did the chicken police come to count them? Just asking ......


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## Crosshairs_Farm

*Permits*

Your question is a little too black and white. Larger cities require permits on all pets. Some cities don't charge as long as vaccines are current. Having a permit gives the owner legal crediblility and recognition as being with the ordinance(s). Makes it more difficult for the lawyers and petty neighbors from takng legal action. This type of permit is not like a gun permit. No ones rights are being violated.


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## TinyHouse

Kansas City, MO is a larger city and it only requires permits for dogs, cats and ferrets - not "all pets".


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## threadeater

Energyvet said:


> Did the chicken police come to count them? Just asking ......


Yes, they came by a week later to make sure I had less. Frankly I wish I'd just kept my big hen in the basement until they were gone.
I had removed her because she was attacking three pullets and that's when I think they decided I was expanding. Chickens- the gateway drug to farming...


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## Energyvet

Chickens! The gateway drug to farming! WTF. Damn Chicken police! Breaks your heart!


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## earlyt89

Has anyone made the chicken police decal yet?


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## BootedBantam

I am bordered by four towns. 3 chickens for my zone, 10 for the other, and the other two have no restrictions...Finding out more and more everyday in this crash chicken course. 

Yes, chicken police exist. Usually called by neighbor. 

I am going as the chicken police for halloween and Man will be my rooster.


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## Energyvet

Poor "Man" who is now married to the crazy chicken lady! Lol. I want to see the finished costumes!


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## TinyHouse

BootedBantam said:


> I am going as the chicken police for halloween and Man will be my rooster.


Hilarious idea! Are you going to put him on a "chicken leash"?

We MUST have pics!!!


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## machinist

Seem like what I read is that some folks (city types) want to control what their neighbors can or cannot do, to avoid having to put up with it next door.

Chickens are not the problem here. Chickens just do chicken stuff and leave people the heck alone. * PEOPLE* are the problem! WAAAY too darn many people, too close together. So, get away from them already! I can see no redeeming value to living in (or even near) a city.


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## TinyHouse

machinist said:


> Seem like what I read is that some folks (city types) want to control what their neighbors can or cannot do, to avoid having to put up with it next door.
> 
> Chickens are not the problem here. Chickens just do chicken stuff and leave people the heck alone. * PEOPLE* are the problem! WAAAY too darn many people, too close together. So, get away from them already! I can see no redeeming value to living in (or even near) a city.


I agree 100%.

That's exactly what I did, although I'm still too close to neighbors for my liking since my place is only 7.5 acres. There are no zoning laws or building codes out here though so no one can complain about my chickens or any other animals I get as long as they stay on my place.

While people are "social animals", some play better with others when jammed together - others, however, really are not meant to live that close to other people.

On the flip side, you also have some of those "city folk" moving out to the country and STILL complaining about animals and smell.  THEY need to move back to a high-rise apartment!

There are always going to be certain people who are never going to be happy no matter where they live and what other people around them are doing. I feel really sorry for that type.


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## BootedBantam

Need more land!!! and yes, will post pics after halloween.


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## Energyvet

I have a paper weight. It had 4 sides:

Happiness is not a state to arrive at, but rather, a manner of traveling.

The pleasure you get from life is equal to the Attitude you put into it.

Life is ten percent how we make it; ninety percent how we take it.

Attitude is a little thing that makes a BIG difference.

I see this every day. Every day. Every day. Every day.


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## Lindamoo

It's just more government intrusion into our business! Say No to permits!


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## lmorto02

*permits for chicks*

I could see it if you were talking about a large quantity, in the city limits. Sometimes it can get overwhelming with the noise or odors or such, and if you have very close proximity neighbors, it could be an issue. But only for a good amount of them. And certainly not for the country settings


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## CMCLB

If you choose to live within city limits, you can expect some regulations. People are closer together, yards are smaller. A flock of several Bantams, without a rooster, would not be an issue. I chose to live in a rural area so I don't have regulations like this. I have a a mixed flock of chickens, ducks, & Guineas, with the highest number being 88 birds.


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## sajack

Your right about regulations in the city. BUT as far as I am concerned my few hens are way less problem than dogs or cats that are allowed in the city. My few hens are not as noisy, do not poop on the neighbors yards, do not bite children or adults. And my hens give me something in return eggs that are far better than the boughten ones. I currently have 18 hens on my 18,000 + square foot property. The city wants me to reduce to 9. Do you know anyone near Portsmouth VA. that would like to purchase a few beautiful young just starting to lay hens. ? Thanks Sharon J


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## wingman

*Permits*

I'm a little late to the party. Here in our city, if you live in the city limits, you can have up to 6 hens in your fenced in back yard - they are considered the same as pets. Outside the city limits, there are no permits necessary unless you're in a neighborhood that has a homeowner's association and then you'd have to clear it with them. Most of them probably wouldn't allow it. Glad I live out in the country!


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## Energyvet

Welcome wingman. I think I want to meet your brother legman. Haha. But glad to have you here with us. Look forward to sharing stories and info. We like pics too.


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## Fizzichick

If you live in the city limits you can only have 4 or 5 chickens here (and it can be enforced if they wish too). This is how I have ended up with most of my chickens, people in town get them and are fined for having too many and so they need re-homed, however, we live out so we have no problem. I hate to think that a permit would be necessary but being some people don't have a lick of sense (one lady had 30 chickens, 5 ducks and a turkey in her postage stamp back yard) I can see where it might be considered necessary within city limits.


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## Tony-O

Still, permits are not necessary if they have a city ordinance and regulations stating how many are allowed.  The permit is just another money maker for the city government. 

Oh, BTW.  I wouldn't live in a HOA neighborhood if they GAVE me the house.


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## Slickchik957

*chicken permit*

Quite simply...no! only time i think this might even be acceptable is in a non rural setting!!


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## DansChickens

If its your piece of property you can do whatever he'll u want excuse my English


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## twentynine

Fizzichick said:


> If you live in the city limits you can only have 4 or 5 chickens here (and it can be enforced if they wish too). This is how I have ended up with most of my chickens, people in town get them and are fined for having too many and so they need re-homed, however, we live out so we have no problem. I hate to think that a permit would be necessary but being some people don't have a lick of sense (one lady had 30 chickens, 5 ducks and a turkey in her postage stamp back yard) I can see where it might be considered necessary within city limits.


Exactly what I was trying to define in my earlier post.

You will always have that element that can not maintain itself with in reasonable limits. The rest of us must pay because of their lack of judgement.


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## wingman

twentynine - your last statement holds true for many of our struggles nowadays!


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## Energyvet

More rules more rules until you can't live without breaking a rule. Then you're a criminal or you're slapped with a fine. They have you right where they want you!
(Read Atlas Shrugged.....;-).......)


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## Riverdale

DansChickens said:


> If its your piece of property you can do whatever he'll u want excuse my English


Common sense. A bit of difference between a city lot and a couple of acres.


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## twentynine

wingman said:


> twentynine - your last statement holds true for many of our struggles nowadays!


I'd be glad to hold with the "do what you want on your own property" way of thinking. But (always a but) the next thing you know my nieghbor is going to try to raise 50 hogs on his half acre lot.


----------



## Energyvet

That smells bad no matter how you look at it. Lol.


----------



## musketjim

I didn't pay any of my neighbors property taxes or mortgage so what he does does not concern me. I don't know if I need permits or not, I just started raising my girls and that's the way it is.


----------



## Energyvet

I just found out at the Chicken Lecture that we have no laws at all on the books in our town. So I can have a Roo if I like! I thought it was 6 chickens no Roo. But I can get whatever I want. Woohoo!


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## Brooksidesue

We live in the country in Atlantic Canada and don't need a permit to keep chickens where we are. I have heard that they may soon start allowing city people to obtain permits to keep a limited number of hens in their backyard, but that has not come to pass as of yet.


----------



## jstillwaters

*Sacramento's laws*

Sacramento has recently allowed people to keep up to three hens (no roosters) in city limits. They require a permit and have some regulations about how close the housing for chickens can be to houses. I see this as progress, since before this time having chickens was illegal, even though small pigs were acceptable! Laws are very strange things. The city collects money for cats, dogs, and now, chickens. I haven't had a problem paying for the permits because I see it as money that hopefully goes toward better animal services, although I don't really know if it does.


----------



## Cindielyn

I didn't need a permit when I raised cockatiels, or when I had 3 cockatoos. The 'toos were FAR messier and noiser than a flock of chickens. However my current mini-flock is not really legal, the board of health merely said they don't care if they are in my house. Outside is restricted. So if I had to pay $25 or so a year for a permit and could keep them in my own yard I would gladly pay. I see no sign of them offering this option, they are dead set against it altogether.


----------



## hobbitgrannytoad

I think having a permit to raise chickens is ridiculous. Here in Wisconsin, I do not live within city limits, but am required to have a Livestock Premises Registration Card. Until spring I only have 2 chickens and 5 steers (the steers are going to market very soon). The number of critters and livestock changes often. I think it's Big Brotherish....who needs to know how many and what I have? I've heard that it is in case of an outbreak of disease so we can be tracked down. I think it's more of a desire to know what everyone has and is doing.


----------



## Energyvet

There is some valid arguments for veterinary disease tracking. As a graduate of UW-SVM spread of bovine and poultry is always an issue if for no other reason then financial. For example, if all your cattle suddenly got sick, and you found it was a contagious disease from someone else who had cattle, then you could be compensated and also disease could be stopped. BSE was a very scary disease that was traced successfully and stopped. The human sickness that was prevented due to that was immeasurable. 

I get it about BIG brother. I'm very liberal in my politics. However, there are real reasons why we (the bigger we) need to know who has what.


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## DansChickens

I didn't need permits and my neighbors still complain about the crowing all day I tell them buck up or shut up haha the Bonnie life


----------



## hobbitgrannytoad

Energyvet: I appreciate your input. Since I don't have any degrees in vet science or agriculture of any kind, I'm sure I am ignorant of many things. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss! However, I did read a book a few years ago on the possible outbreak of Avian Flu and honestly thought it was presented like the sky was falling at any moment. Things do get exaggerated by those with agendas. It's as hard to unravel the true truth as to why we have some requirements as it is to access someone else's motives.


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## shawna

Billings did pass the chicken issue. I applaud Billings. I would like to know what people think of this situation. I live out in the county, but in a subdivision. there is no lots less than 3 acres. Due to the covenants we are allowed cows and horses. Cats and dogs. But no chickens. Someone in the subdivision has had chickens for three years now. I got some chicks this spring, let people know, tried to get the covenants changed, which it did not pass by 100%. It did pass by majority. But due to not getting 100% they are telling me to get my chickens out of their subdivision. They did not ask the gal who has had them for three years to get rid of her chickens. What would you do in this situation?


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## Happeesupermom

I can understand a general sanitation or nuisance law, (which, of course, would apply to animals, motorcycles, parties, etc.), but I do not agree with restrictions on family gardens, livestock or other personal decisions.

I can understand general laws regarding commercial trading, but not restrictions on providing food for one's family.

If someone decided to keep 500 chickens, it would obviously not be for personal or family use, so naturally would be covered by commercial laws, but not laws restricting poultry, cattle, gardens & swine raised for the family.

We should be free to provide for our families. It's none of Big Brother's business HOW.


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## Kokoschicks

I live in adams mass which is a "right to farm community". And they said I need a "special permit" to raise Chickens which is a $100 application fee and if granted then $75 for the actual permit. But it says nothing about Chickens on it just special permit. Is this true or can I fight it?


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## BootedBantam

Kokoschicks said:


> I live in adams mass which is a "right to farm community". And they said I need a "special permit" to raise Chickens which is a $100 application fee and if granted then $75 for the actual permit. But it says nothing about Chickens on it just special permit. Is this true or can I fight it?


http://www.iberkshires.com/story/34592/Residents-Squawk-Over-Chicken-Law-Change.html

http://urbanchickens.org/chicken-ordinances-and-laws/

http://www.lawlib.state.ma.us/subject/about/animals.html


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## Riverdale

Happeesupermom said:


> I can understand a general sanitation or nuisance law, (which, of course, would apply to animals, motorcycles, parties, etc.), but I do not agree with restrictions on family gardens, livestock or other personal decisions.
> 
> I can understand general laws regarding commercial trading, but not restrictions on providing food for one's family.
> 
> If someone decided to keep 500 chickens, it would obviously not be for personal or family use, so naturally would be covered by commercial laws, but not laws restricting poultry, cattle, gardens & swine raised for the family.
> 
> We should be free to provide for our families. It's none of Big Brother's business HOW.


I do agree (for the most part). However *choosing* where you live by*existing statues* is a large part of the fight.

I tend to dislike and disagree with the people who purposely break the law regarding chickens (or other animals) as "It is MY right" in a surburban area as I do those who move to the country and seek to prevent farmers from farming.

For those who do not know, my great uncle was sued by 'a downstater' shprtly after Michigan RtF law was enacted. My father was on the committee that drafted the law.

Don't be selfish, be responsible.


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## ladyhawk

*Maryland*

As far as I know there are no permit requirements for chickens but they do have them for dogs...

We had a few people try to keep them in their back yards at our Home Owners Association but they were told no because the chickens would wander off into someones flower garden and tear it up or leave little "white" gifts on neighbors doorsteps, and then there were roosters crowing too early in the morning creating issues.

We have since moved and now have a little over four acres with one rooster and three hens. I made a point to talk to my neighbors before getting my chickens because they would be free range. My neighbors are supposed to let me know if they ever have an issue with them at which point they will no longer be free roaming.. Its a courtesy that seems to have fallen by the wayside these days.

June


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## ladyhawk

*Response to Shawna - Billings*



shawna said:


> Billings did pass the chicken issue. I applaud Billings. I would like to know what people think of this situation. I live out in the county, but in a subdivision. there is no lots less than 3 acres. Due to the covenants we are allowed cows and horses. Cats and dogs. But no chickens. Someone in the subdivision has had chickens for three years now. I got some chicks this spring, let people know, tried to get the covenants changed, which it did not pass by 100%. It did pass by majority. But due to not getting 100% they are telling me to get my chickens out of their subdivision. They did not ask the gal who has had them for three years to get rid of her chickens. What would you do in this situation?


Wow.. I think this has more to do with the "bad press" the chickens get or maybe the lady knows someone on the board of directors who is playing favorites. Are you sure there wasn't a provision for chickens previously and because she had them might be grandfathered in? I *was* on a board of directors here in Maryland so I can actually relate to both sides of the issues. If that was not the case, then you end up turning her in at which point she too will have to get rid of hers. Then if she doesn't you would have legal recourse against the home owners association for favoritism...

Keep in mind if you take it this far, you will not be able to recoup your legal fees which reach huge amounts in appeals and those could also keep you in court for many years to come... Yeah, I know for something so simple..... but people have nitpicked the legal system to the point that a simple case can actually end up more complicated than when it started... *(I am not a lawyer nor do I work in the legal field in any capacity. Just chalk this up to some options I think you have and the outcomes you may end up dealing with based on the things I've seen thus far...)
*
When I say "Bad press", I swore I would never own them nasty, smelly birds. Well now I own four. Since getting them, I have found that they are not the nasty, smelly birds I thought they were! My husband and I both found that they have their own individual personalities and they have provided been more entertainment for us when we are outside!

June


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## shawna

*to ladyhwak*

No one was grandfathered in. I have been on the board of directors since it started. I am no longer on it, had enough of our president. My chickens aren't bothering anyone. We do have loose dogs in the neighborhood and I wont let my girls be in harms ways. They have a huge pen and coop. I don't have a rooster either. I agree they all have their own personality. Very funny ones at that. I to at one time said no to chickens. I had a friend that had them and I couldn't resist. I am hooked, If I have to move into town instead of the country to have my chickens I will.


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## piglett

twentynine said:


> you'll have some chicken man with a 1/8 acre lot and 200 chickens, 100 of them being dear to heart roosters. QUOTE]
> 
> no worries roosters are good eating
> please pass the salt & pepper folks


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## ladyhawk

Wow.. If the other person has had their chickens for three years, how is it she hasn't been caught? 
(I don't know of any religious reason for chickens but I know about the goats (they have to be white!) LOL
If it is a covenant vote, there isn't much you can do but keep trying to get them changed. But considering our association is only required to have 50% + 1, I am surprised the 100% is even legal... Your community will never get 100% on any vote......

I have always been pretty stubborn but when given a sensible reason, I can also be easy going and a lot less stubborn....
Keep in mind that I don't like bullies or stupid rules (not laws). I will intentionally get myself in trouble just to make a point! : )
Eventually I end up in trouble most of the time but I also always get my point across! 

If it were me.... Don't forget, I like pushing the envelope...
I would put up a privacy fence with overlapping slats and no gate access.. so I could only get in or out from the house.... 
I'd move the coup in and tell them I got rid of the chickens. At this point they would have to prove otherwise. 
The only way they could do that would be to trespass MY private property or if the chickens flew the coup! 
It can be fun but can also be stressful depending on how far they want to take it...

I guess I am just mean...
June


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## wolfstar

It's been a bit since i have been on here, but I was sent this thread in a PM regarding protection from predators...I am guessing since we house predator spiecies. i hope this is the right thread.... 

OK...First of all...

Coyotes... We have seen coyotes scale 8 foot chain link fence. In the city, Coyotes will vault to the top of a 6 foot block wall and use the walls of a master planned community as a transit system. They will walk the walls looking for prey, be it small dogs and cats, to urban livestock. 

If you are to keep livestock safe from coyotes in the city, you need a fully contained enclosure, including floors and ceilings. Coyote sanctuaries require a 2 foot dig wire ( chain link burried to a depth of 6 inches extending 2 feet from the fence line in) and a 2 foot tip in on top of a 6 foot fence to stop vaulting. For Chickens, and other small game, you want the dig wire facing outward, but I would be more inclined to completely cover the enclosure since this would protect against large avian predators as well. 

For wolves, do the same...But Wolves are MUCH stronger and can pull apart chain link fence. Look at hog panels if you are concerned about wolves. Wolves are a bit more methodical, and will keep trying till something works, We have seen wolves remove entire gates from chain link fence lines, rip chain link mesh from the posts, and figure out how to open gates. Wolves are very strong, and posess a methodical intelligence that can be quite alarming at times. 

On the whole, you really want to make sure the materals you use can not be broken apart, or peeled off. Welded wire is bad, you will want to go with chain link or wound cattle fence. if you do chain link, where the tension post go, use bolt on retainers for the tension posts, not the cheaper c-clips that they sell at Home Depot and Lowes. Materials like this will stop intrusions, cheaper items will be beaten by predators.

Granted some of you use raised coups and such, just know that 1/2 inch chicken wire is no match for a coyote or wolf. You really have o look at the coup in a 360 degree way to make sure your brood is safe....


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## machinist

I can't remember if I replied in this thread or not. But I don't believe in permits for anything agricultural. Being a firm believer in Liberty, I think it is the responsibility of the individual to use good sense in where and how they keep livestock. 

The balance in this view comes with the same rules for everyone. If my neighbor had chickens and I didn't like it, I could talk to them about it. If he persisted, I could always get a few really stinky pigs....


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## Peggi

Permits mean someone has to 'oversee' your property and animals to make sure you're clean and responsible. Really? Is there anything that doesn't require the government to babysit us? 

Licensing is *already* required for most animals (rabies tags, etc.). The licensing already tracks how many animals, male/female/neutered or not. Why does the government want even more control? Answer: In order to make it prohibitive to keep ANY animals at all. Don't be mislead - HSUS/PETA/etc. write and promote laws that make owning animals more and more prohibitive. Pigs, cows, horses, chickens, dogs, cats, exotics have all been affected by misleading information advertised to ignorant people, leading to laws which often don't make sense and no one to implement them. Grrrr. This is a hot button of mine.


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## Energyvet

They need to know mostly to protect people from Rabies and things like mad cow disease. That's the only way to track the spread of deadly things to the human population. Before those things were in place, there was no way to keep anyone safe if there was a disease outbreak. It was created in response to lessons learned. 

I agree that I don't want government taking over my life (Ayn Rand) but some things can make sense.


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## tdepointe

Energyvet said:


> They need to know mostly to protect people from Rabies and things like mad cow disease. That's the only way to track the spread of deadly things to the human population. Before those things were in place, there was no way to keep anyone safe if there was a disease outbreak. It was created in response to lessons learned.
> 
> I agree that I don't want government taking over my life (Ayn Rand) but some things can make sense.


Permits are not to control disease. They are simpley to collect more revenue for your local goverment to waste.


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## realsis

tdepointe said:


> Permits are not to control disease. They are simpley to collect more revenue for your local goverment to waste.


so true! i agree with that!


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## Peggi

The trouble with permits is not just collecting revenue and controlling disease. When a law is enacted requiring folks to have permits, a new database on a computer somewhere has to be built by someone. Staff has to be hired to inspect properties, review applications, and keep accounting records. New staff is needed to punish violators and irresponsible owners. All this adds up to more tax dollars and more people breaking the law. In addition, when all this is enacted, most of the time, the 'staff' does NOT have proper education to evaluate and determine the adequacy care. Therefore, many bleeding heart people with very good intentions are grossed out by a little piece of poop and the poultry owner is fined, loses their flock, and the courts get involved.... This has been happening with dog and cat breeders across the country for a few years now. 

I believe that home owners organizations rules should be obeyed, county and city laws adhered to, and everyone be free to do what they want within those EXISTING constraints.


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## amwiggi

We live in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, and a special zoning permit is required to have chickens. It's not like a license for a dig where you just go purchase it. A permit requires a certified statement from the county controller($10) of who lives within 300 feet of you. Those people have to be notified (which is why the person applying has to supply pre-addressed mailing labels for each person on the list) of a public hearing where the permit will be discussed by a panel. The person who applies for the permit ($50 processing fee) must appear before the panel to answer questions regarding breed, numbers, housing, etc. It's a process that can take anywhere from 30 - 90 days. It's a very long drawn out process that I guarantee deters a lot of people from owning chickens (legally).


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## AlexTS113

Keith said:


> Some Cities like Billings are looking to implement a permit system to raise chickens.
> 
> Do you agree with having to get a permit to raise chickens?


Not at all.


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## Energyvet

That's BS.


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## ReTIRED

My DAILY Prayer: *"* God, Save us from 'do-gooders'. *"*


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## KeyMan

There isn't much good coming from most do-gooder's. Most of them need a life!


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## briannasellars

Really?!?!? Talk about people who have WAY to much time on their hands


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