# Breda pullet



## Maryellen

My one lone breda pullet .she is maturing nicely. (3 Cockerals are her siblings )


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## GitaBooks

Gorgeous! She's a pretty lady.


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## seminole wind

Love her!.....


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## Maryellen

Thank you! I can't wait to see how she finally turns out. I've got 9 more in my brooder that are going to be mottled so hopefully they turn out as pretty as her


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## seminole wind

unsexed?..........


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## Maryellen

The 9 babies I can't tell who is who until 6 weeks old. Red wattles =male . Pink = female. This one is a pullet


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## Feathered

Beautiful!


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## chickenqueen

She's beautiful and so big!She looks like an eagle roosting on your arm.


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## Maryellen

Thank you! !she isn't as big as she looks.


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen -- she's beautiul!


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## Maryellen

Thank you Sylvester, im.hoping the 9 chicks in the house turn out pretty like this one.


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen - re the Mottled at RFR: Her roo's had beautiful waterfall feathering in evenly black and white patterns - really pretty like the first roo you had from Dutch. However, I noticed in RFR pullets/hens that they had a lot more white in their feather patterns with the tails being primarily white rather than an even distribution of black and white. It must be the way Mottling trends in the females. That was why I was surprised at how much black were in the first Dutch Mottled females you acquired. Wonder which trend is the desired? IMO I like the more white look except I would love to see more black in the tails of the Mottled females. Just my preference because I don't know what the standard is, if there is any for Mottled yet? Of course, I love Breda so much that they can be purple with yellow polka dots and I'd still love them!


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## Maryellen

I think my blacks are just blacks with some white feathers. But as m not sure. 
The RFR babies definitely do have alot more white on them, I am.really liking it and can't wait to see how the 9 babies grow up. 
The white 3 month old is from the black hens and the mottled roo from Dutch. 
The 2 split black chicks I hatched from RFR I'm thinking are cockerals, still waiting for wattles to show up lol


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## Sylvester017

RFR got her Blue/Black/Splash from Greenfire and her Cuckoos from Dutch. I just can't recall if she ever mentioned where she acquired her Mottled but I noticed her roos looked like your first waterfall roo in even black and white feathering and that her females had long beautiful white tail feathering with not much black in the tails. I don't know much about Mottled or where they originally came from so I have no idea what they should look like. I asked RFR if she ever had females with more black in the tails but didn't get a response. I guess she hasn't been breeding the Mottled long enough to see for sure yet. I would love to see a female with just a bit more black in the tail but then I don't know the genetics involved -- maybe it's a genetic thing that the females have more white in the tail than the males? Like chicken danz says, the Breda are so new and full of surprises -- they don't follow the genetic rules like other chicken breeds.


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## Maryellen

I think rfr got some mottled from Dutch too, but not sure.
I can't wait to see how the 9 chicks will feather out, I'm hoping they look like rfr mottled


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## Sylvester017

I wouldn't be surprised if RFR got her Mottled from Dutch. She got the Cuckoo's from Dutch and I absolutely love my RFR Cuckoo and wish I could've got an extra one. Very hardy in comparison to the Blue's we've had. The Cuckoo we have really has some beautiful long vulture hocks and toe feathering. Just a bit more skittish but still very sweet. I like that the Breda butt/vent feathers stay cleaner than fluffy-butt breeds. I've never had to wash the butt feathers on Breda. Don't know how they manage to stay so clean with all their extra feathering.

My juvenile lap Breda. She jumps into my lap on her own to preen and then snuggle. She's getting better at balancing and doesn't scratch my arm with her toes anymore.


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## Maryellen

Omg I love her!!


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## Sylvester017

She's still molting her juvenile feathers but her vulture hocks and feathered feet are to die for. The edging/lacing on the blue feathers will get better too. My hope is that her edging will look like this as an adult:


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## Sylvester017

Had to post some more pics of my Blue Breda. She's growing but still needs to grow out some waddles before I put her with the other hens. She is very curious about the other hens through the coop wire and the Cuckoo Breda is absolutely fascinated with her. The Cuckoo and Blue Breda are definitely gravitating toward each other. The Cuckoo Breda keeps distance from the two old Silkies but she follows the new Blue Breda pullet all around the coop perimeter and the two Breda are gentle as lambs around each other. So glad they will have each other after integration is complete.


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## Maryellen

Awww soo beautiful! !. I just put my 7 babies with the adults last night (I sold 2 out of the 9).
You could probably integrate them now.


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## seminole wind

How beautiful!


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## Sylvester017

*Too small to integrate with the old hens*



Maryellen said:


> Awww soo beautiful! !. I just put my 7 babies with the adults last night (I sold 2 out of the 9).
> You could probably integrate them now.


Glad to hear someone was interested in the Breda to get two chicks from you! They'll be back for more Breda once they see how great they are!

My new Blue pullet is still too small in size to integrate with the older hens. If I had two young pullets together I'd integrate them but with only one small pullet, I'll wait before placing her in the coop permanently. For now I take her outdoors to putter around with the old hens but I don't dare put her out with them when they are competing for feed. Once her wattles grow out then I'll know she'll be ready to adapt as the only new kid in the yard.


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## Sylvester017

*You are too kind!*



seminolewind said:


> How beautiful!


TY! You are too kind!


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## Maryellen

She looks bigger in her pics Sylvester. I thought she was ready


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## Sylvester017

*Too little*



Maryellen said:


> She looks bigger in her pics Sylvester. I thought she was ready


Yep, she looks big but next to the Cuckoo Breda she is still too young and little. You can see the difference in wattle size between the year-old Cuckoo and 4-month Blue baby. The Blue is closer to the camera and still looks smaller compared to the Cuckoo Breda inside the pen. The Cuckoo is fascinated with the Blue pullet and I give them together time in the yard but I supervise. So far, the Cuckoo has been kind.


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## Seriph

Wow she is beautiful!!!


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## seminole wind

Very pretty birds.


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## Sylvester017

As you may already know my last Blue Breda pullet died. I've lost every Blue Breda pullet I ever had. Suspect avian leukosis which is a death sentence, no treatment or cure yet. It's a virus that attacks the internal organs, mainly liver I believe, and in spite of the pullet eating she will not gain weight, go lethargic, and waste away to the point that tube feeding will not help. It's a virus that transfers from bird to bird through lice or insects and more likely from mating carriers so that the chicks at hatch will die early or others possibly living to young adulthood but ultimately have an inevitable death sentence. I'm wondering if that is the reason the B/B/S from the original Greenfire imports might've had the latent virus and why so many new breeders a decade ago got disheartened when they had high B/B/S Breda chick mortality. The Cuckoos seem to have escaped the problem as I believe they were originally clean Canadian imports -- but I wonder how many Mottled have been crossbred with Greenfire B/B/S that might've been carrying the latent leukosis virus. It might be good to not breed any Bredas until they pass the 2-year age to show they don't have leukosis symptoms before using them for breeding. chickendanz on the other chicken website has spent a lot of time tracking down the possibles of why Breda have such a high chick mortality and seems to think the leukosis might have gone way back to the original imports or from the earliest offspring that might've contracted it and got shipped to other breeders unawares to everyone as far back as a decade ago. I was very disheartened to lose two of my newest Blue Breda pullets and have stayed in contact w/ chickendanz as she closely monitors her Breda breeding program in lieu of this newest info. Meanwhile, I got 3 new Dominique chicks after losing the 2 Breda pullets so I'll at least have layers in the New Year; otherwise I only have the one young Cuckoo Breda hen left and an old almost blind Silkie hen. The 3 new Dom chicks have made life a little more fun and bearable in the meantime. Breda remind me of the usually unafraid outgoing friendly disposition of Dominiques and I classify the two breeds very much alike.

CUCKOO BREDA STILL DOING WELL - this one's skittish, but a sweet docile flockmate








OLD SILKIE with a molting Cuckoo Breda feather stuck in her "hair"















GREGARIOUS DOMINIQUE CHICK on my right knee








GREGARIOUS DOMINIQUE CHICK on my left knee









BLUE EYES OF A FRIENDLY DOMINIQUE visitor - eyes will turn reddish-bay later


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## Maryellen

I'm getting 3 more from Dutch Connection, a cuckoo and 2 xmottled. I see Walt's ark now has blue, white, cuckoo, black


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## Maryellen

Sylvester is it possible the breeder you got the blues from had an infected flock


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## seminole wind

I believe there are some breedings that eventually end up with poor immune systems. I have Crele's that I can't say are robust. It might be best for you to send a dead one in for a Necropsy so you know for sure.

I have Marek's exposed birds that won't get Marek's but get immunosuppression. So I just hit them with corrid and Tylan, or whatever antibiotic I have. It's worth a shot.


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## robin416

What Karen said. Without a necropsy it will be impossible to know if that is indeed what you're dealing with and know for certain how to deal with the early deaths. It could be something totally unrelated to a virus and might even be something fixable if addressed with breeding.


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## seminole wind

I've also done a lot of reading about sub clinical infections where a chicken is just not as robust and carries weight like it should. It can be that a higher amount of bacteria like cocci or clostridium have established a higher level but not enough to cause blatent symptoms. Just be a bit less thrifty. I'll bet I have that going on in some of mine. Every chicken I've had necropsied has had cocci in high numbers aside from whatever may have killed them.


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> I'm getting 3 more from Dutch Connection, a cuckoo and 2 xmottled. I see Walt's ark now has blue, white, cuckoo, black


Hi Maryellen - DC is a good choice as breeder. Waltz's Ark didn't offer vaccinations of any kind and believed in hollistic cures to build a resistant flock -- but hollistic is not effective against viruses like fowl pox, Marek's, AI, leukosis, etc. I've ordered from Waltz's and had to euthanize a juvenile for Marek's at the vet's when I had her for only 3 weeks plus I was shipped a male instead of a female Breda from Waltz's. They've got gorgeous looking birds but with Breda I prefer someone who vaccinates. 



Maryellen said:


> Sylvester is it possible the breeder you got the blues from had an infected flock


I got Breda from 3 *different* breeders from 3 different States and all the Blue pullets died except for the incorrectly shipped Blue male from Waltz's which we had to re-home to a friend's farm. The only living Breda I have left is the Cuckoo Breda pullet from RFR of CA whose Cuckoo breeding stock was originally from DC. I considered trying Waltz's again for a Blue Breda pullet but after losing the Blue Ameraucana pullet shipped with Marek's from them I'm a bit hesitant to order again from them. The Amer probably didn't show Marek's symptoms when they shipped her to me, but shipping stresses birds to where they can come down with cases of cocci, respiratory issues, or succumb to latent viruses like Marek's -- just from shipping stress.



seminolewind said:


> I believe there are some breedings that eventually end up with poor immune systems. I have Crele's that I can't say are robust. It might be best for you to send a dead one in for a Necropsy so you know for sure.
> 
> I have Marek's exposed birds that won't get Marek's but get immunosuppression. So I just hit them with corrid and Tylan, or whatever antibiotic I have. It's worth a shot.


I've been shipped birds with Marek's that I've had to put down while my long-time regular flock never got the virus -- but I would be fooling myself to think that fowl pox, Marek's, cocci, MG/MS, etc, aren't latent in birds being shipped to me. I read an article that said backyarders would be shocked to find all the latent viruses/bacteria in our chickens if we ever were to test them. So, because I don't breed or hatch, I'm not interested in taking a dead bird for necropsy. I spend $$$ only on living birds to my poultry vet and follow his advice. He would necropsy for an industrial or breeding flock but not for my backyard pets. Good healthy robust birds can usually fend off some of the less lethal viruses like dry pox and even Marek's in some cases, and antibiotics help to fight off cocci and respiratory infections or secondary infections from viral diseases, which is why my vet always stresses to give vitamins to my birds for better health. He strongly reminds us after every vet visit. With newly shipped birds I always take fecal samples to him to test for worms or cocci and you'd be surprised at how many shipped birds I've received with worms, cocci, or respiratory issues, most of which I would never thought they were sick simply just looking at the bird.



robin416 said:


> What Karen said. Without a necropsy it will be impossible to know if that is indeed what you're dealing with and know for certain how to deal with the early deaths. It could be something totally unrelated to a virus and might even be something fixable if addressed with breeding.


Avian leukosis has some very telltale signs other than early chick mortality. On birds not compromised from other issues like untreated cocci or worms, leukosis can be in juvenile birds that seem healthy at the start and as it grows just doesn't seem to gain weight in spite of a healthy appetite, and eventually goes lethargic, and wastes away. One juvenile chick shipped to me died suddenly before the week went by, and her companion lasted for another 4 or 5 months but also died in spite of vet visits and medicines. The vet wanted to run a battery of tests but said the 6 month old was destined to die and nothing could be done to save her so I saved $800 not running tests.



seminolewnd said:


> I've also done a lot of reading about sub clinical infections where a chicken is just not as robust and carries weight like it should. It can be that a higher amount of bacteria like cocci or clostridium have established a higher level but not enough to cause blatent symptoms. Just be a bit less thrifty. I'll bet I have that going on in some of mine. Every chicken I've had necropsied has had cocci in high numbers aside from whatever may have killed them.


Cocci unfortunately is not easy to diagnose other than the visibly bloody strain. With 9 strains of cocci I don't hesitate to take fecal samples immediately to my vet on newly shipped birds and once a year on adult birds. He doesn't believe in medicating birds without actual symptoms so I wait for results before medicating. There's a way to do fecal tests myself but I prefer the vet's expertise in medicine to be certain. Also, chickens come down with cocci from stress or other viral or bacterial infections that's going on at the same time. Cocci is latent in chickens and that's why keeping them robust, vitamin'd, good diet, etc, keeps the latent bacteria or viruses from taking hold. During molt, brooding, climate extremes, illnesses, I fortify/supplement with vitamins to give them a fighting chance against the common bacterial issues. We can only do the best we can do and the rest is up to the chickens' resistance. I have one old Silkie hen right now recovering from dry pox. She got it while her resistance was down during molt. I thought to put her down but the vet said in a large breeding or layer flock he would advise it but for a pet he took the wait-and-see approach, sent me home with antibiotics and Tylan to prevent secondary infection, and now she is recovering. One of the new Dominique chicks had one dry pox under her eyelid but with the antibiotic ointment and Tylan in the drinking water she bounced back in a couple days and none of the other 3 birds ever came down. I'm going to make sure they always have vitamins, electrolytes, supplements, because with wild birds in the open range yard carrying bacteria and parasites, I need to fortify my little flock. Viruses live in soil for years so it's a losing battle thinking our birds are a "closed" clean flock just because we don't bring any new birds into it. Wild birds, mosquitoes, insects of many kinds, carry junk to infect our chickens so my vet says fortify-fortify-fortify with vitamins. I use Rooster Booster multi-wormer vitamins, Poly-Vi-Soil no-iron, and get an all-avian vitamin at PetSmart but I understand Harrison's Parrot feed is very good too. Whatever works!


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## Maryellen

Well if waltz's ark is selling bad birds how can they be supposedly npip?
If you want healthy birds dutch connection is the way to go , and rare feather ranch if you got from her too. 
That's a shame if waltz ark is shipping birds with mareks


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## SonoranChick

What a gorgeous gal!


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> Well if waltz's ark is selling bad birds how can they be supposedly npip?
> If you want healthy birds dutch connection is the way to go , and rare feather ranch if you got from her too.
> That's a shame if waltz ark is shipping birds with mareks


My experience w/ Waltz's was confirmed by others who've had issues. Waltz's has beautiful pictures of birds but my personal experience was less than satisfactory w/them.

As for NPIP, I don't know how that specifically works -- it seems to be different from state to state. NPIP is mostly interested in testing only for Newcastles and Avian Influenza as far as the birds shipped across state lines -- but I have no idea if NPIP tests for other _*latent*_ diseases that breeding flocks carry in their birds unless owners pay for the additional tests. NPIP seems to vary from state agriculture to state agriculture. Since I don't breed I can't testify to the specifics of what state NPIP's cover. Testing is VERY expensive so it stands to reason owners would choose only to cover required NPIP tests and not spend extra for other hidden latent viruses/bacteria.


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## Maryellen

You can pay extra for other tests, Friday the state is coming to me to redo my npip and tell me how much it costs to do other testing. So anyone can have any test done for a fee


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> You can pay extra for other tests, Friday the state is coming to me to redo my npip and tell me how much it costs to do other testing. So anyone can have any test done for a fee


Thanks for the info and good luck on your tests! I love that you have the breeding bug to save this beautiful breed! I know there are mandatory NPIP tests and that owners can pay extra for add'l tests -- I just don't know which tests are mandatory in different agricultural regions since it varies from state AG to state AG. With Breda, it might be a good idea to get the avian leukosis test done because that virus passes down mostly from breeding birds and it is such a death sentence with no cure and possibly can be eradicated by not breeding infected parents. Some birds succumb to the leukosis symptoms with suddent chick mortality while more robust birds continue a longer but subliminal death sentence. I lost one shipped chick the first week while her sibling lived to 6 months before wasting away. Both were shipped with bloody cocci and cocci is a sure symptom of some bigger underlying health issue. Corid rid the cocci but the leukosis ate away these beautiful birds.


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## Maryellen

Those 2 blues you had were soo beautiful. I'm so do sorry you lost them 
I'm going to find out Friday what extra tests nj has that are extra $ . The npip is free, but I want to see what else is available depending on price


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> Those 2 blues you had were soo beautiful. I'm so do sorry you lost them
> I'm going to find out Friday what extra tests nj has that are extra $ . The npip is free, but I want to see what else is available depending on price


Yep, it sucks to lose such a beautiful breed to something that is baffling Breda owners. That's why I'm glad to see chickendanz take the extra effort to research the possible malady causing chick mortality and early deaths in Breda flocks. She has Breda that are over 7 years old but had some that died young. She studied to be a vet so getting to the bottom of such baffling issues has caused her to come up with leukosis as a very suspect virus that may have infected Breda stock possibly as far back as Greenfire where the original B/B/S Breda were from. The Cuckoos from the original Canada breeders seem to have escaped the disease.

The two vets which I use will charge for testing or medications for each individual bird. I have one vet that likes to give a battery of tests on just one single bird which can run $800-$1000 just for the one bird. Meanwhile, my poultry vet won't advise testing unless he's baffled by symptoms which so far he's never been wrong in the 6 yrs I've gone to him. The only tests he runs are on the fecal samples I bring to him. My poultry vet is my primary vet but during his vacations I use the other vet as a backup only.

Spot testing the way NPIP does it may not always catch an untested bird carrying a latent virus like leukosis. If NPIP doesn't test every single bird it would be moot to test just one or two birds to catch a latent virus. Correct me if I'm wrong about this since I don't use NPIP for my little backyard flock. The expense of testing is why I don't spend $$$ on necropsies since I don't breed, hatch, or ship birds. I only spend $$$ on my living birds.


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## Maryellen

Here in nj the npip tests are free. For any other tests there is a charge, I'll find out Friday more details. 
I had 1 chick die at 2 weeks old, and 4 died at pipping, 2 died at a few days old. 
Now would you say that those all leukosis?


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## seminole wind

How can you be so certain that it's AL and not Marèks? NPIP does not cover either one, and they are highly contagious. Marèks usually displays symptoms starting usually at 6 weeks to 4 months old, but many get symptomatic even older than that.

With chicks and cocci, if a chick is standing alone and looks listless or sick, 9 times out of 10 it's coccidiosis, and I treat right away.

Avian Leuk oasis usually does not show up until after 16 weeks old. It does not cause paralysis like Marèks does. But they are both viruses that cause cancer.

Maryellen, your chicks died from something other than those viruses.


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## seminole wind

Sylvester017 said:


> Yep, it sucks to lose such a beautiful breed to something that is baffling Breda owners. That's why I'm glad to see chickendanz take the extra effort to research the possible malady causing chick mortality and early deaths in Breda flocks. She has Breda that are over 7 years old but had some that died young. She studied to be a vet so getting to the bottom of such baffling issues has caused her to come up with leukosis as a very suspect virus that may have infected Breda stock possibly as far back as Greenfire where the original B/B/S Breda were from. The Cuckoos from the original Canada breeders seem to have escaped the disease.
> 
> The two vets which I use will charge for testing or medications for each individual bird. I have one vet that likes to give a battery of tests on just one single bird which can run $800-$1000 just for the one bird. Meanwhile, my poultry vet won't advise testing unless he's baffled by symptoms which so far he's never been wrong in the 6 yrs I've gone to him. The only tests he runs are on the fecal samples I bring to him. My poultry vet is my primary vet but during his vacations I use the other vet as a backup only.
> 
> Spot testing the way NPIP does it may not always catch an untested bird carrying a latent virus like leukosis. If NPIP doesn't test every single bird it would be moot to test just one or two birds to catch a latent virus. Correct me if I'm wrong about this since I don't use NPIP for my little backyard flock. The expense of testing is why I don't spend $$$ on necropsies since I don't breed, hatch, or ship birds. I only spend $$$ on my living birds.


Only an animal disease lab can do a thorough necropsy. I feel it's money well spent to save the rest of the flock from some baffling ailment.

Since there are so few Breda here, the overbreeding has seemed to weaken the breed and now they are less resistant and less hardy. Same thing happened to the Crevacouers. I had 5, now down to 1. It's really a shame when it comes down to that to save a breed.


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## Maryellen

I think mine just died from nature. Only the strong survive, and even my barnyard mix I've had chicks pip and die and a few die at a day or two old. 
The Breda I have are unrelated to greenfire for my east coast bunch,they came from the Netherlands to Canada to my breeder. The west coast bunch are related to my east coast ,and the CA breeder has one greenfire hen so I'm hoping none of my eggs I hatched are from that bird.


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## Maryellen

I also don't supplement. Only if a bird is sick. So maybe over supplementing is messing with their immune system


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## chickenqueen

I had 5 chicks and found the youngest dead at 5 days.The rest are fine and growing.Sometimes they die and we never know why.ME,you got a rough road to travel and I wish you the best of luck and hope you figure it out.Those mottled Bredas are beautiful and it would be a shame to lose the breed.


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## Maryellen

CQ you are confusing me with someone else lol. I only lost a few chicks and I feel it's nature


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## Maryellen

I also have a friend in Canada who breeds them too,so I can add new blood in the spring


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## Maryellen

Plus I noticed alot animals with blue coloring have health issues, dogs, cats, some chickens, it's like the abnormal colors have genetic issues. Not all, but some


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## seminole wind

Maryellen, I know you are doing good breeding . You're doing what everyone else should have been doing for years. I hope you can breed back some hardiness in the birds that was bred out over the years (not on purpose-it happens when the gene pool is small) You do have a tough road.

In Florida we have a Florida Panther , a protected species. The numbers of them had gotten down to less than 100, and of course they were inbreeding themselves, and breeding the hardiness right out of themselves. The only recourse was for the government to import some cougars from Texas and increase the numbers with some unrelated blood. It was that or extinction.

In my own little world, in my opinion, blue color appears to be weakest. I've had problems in the past especially with Blue birds and poor immune systems. I've also had Crele Polish (probably inbred to get pattern), and out of the original 12, I have 2 left. Just not hardy. 

With my chickens, due to immunosuppression r/t Marek's exposure, it seems I get problems with subclinical disease where a microbe like cocci can live in higher amounts and not noticeably affect the bird except for sub par hardiness. So I'm always ready to hit them with an anti cocci and antibiotic vs. death.

I wish I had room for some of your birds!


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## seminole wind

Maryellen said:


> I also don't supplement. Only if a bird is sick. So maybe over supplementing is messing with their immune system


I don't supplement, but adding vitamins to the water of any age bird is something I will do.


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## Maryellen

I'm hoping the lines I have work, so far they are very hardy, and the breeder who has the east coast has very hardy birds


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## Maryellen

I'm going to see what I get in the spring with my 3rd hatch


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## Sylvester017

seminolewind said:


> Only an animal disease lab can do a thorough necropsy. I feel it's money well spent to save the rest of the flock from some baffling ailment.
> 
> Since there are so few Breda here, the overbreeding has seemed to weaken the breed and now they are less resistant and less hardy. Same thing happened to the Crevacouers. I had 5, now down to 1. It's really a shame when it comes down to that to save a breed.


Definitely agree. A small gene pool is causing immunity problems. And truly, only a test can provide accurate diagnosis. Breda are a breed that seem to defy the rules of genetics though. If I were breeding, hatching, or selling birds I would necropsy. But for my small backyard flock I've only spent $$$ on living birds. I am so sorry about your Crevies. They are another one of those sweet gentle docile breeds that I would love to see continued.


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## Sylvester017

seminolewind said:


> How can you be so certain that it's AL and not Marèks? NPIP does not cover either one, and they are highly contagious. Marèks usually displays symptoms starting usually at 6 weeks to 4 months old, but many get symptomatic even older than that.
> I've had juveniles shipped to me with Marek's, and I had a 3-yr-old who came down with it and we couldn't save them. Marek's can hit at any age and can lie latent in a bird -- and it is so distressing to watch a bird slowly get infirm and paralyzed. I heard St. John's Wort treatments can sometimes pull a Marek's victim back to health but it has to be started early before the damaging symptoms get critical and still it's iffy. My poultry vet hesitates to euthanize a Marek's bird because he said they sometimes can come out of it. I don't bother to save Marek's birds anymore because no treatment has worked yet for me.
> With chicks and cocci, if a chick is standing alone and looks listless or sick, 9 times out of 10 it's coccidiosis, and I treat right away.
> Probably correct. In my case I take a fecal sample to the vet to confirm before I start treatment. I have such a tiny backyard flock I just spend the $$ to get the vet's confirmation, because sometimes it can be worms too -- as I found out from receiving shipped juveniles.
> Avian Leukosis usually does not show up until after 16 weeks old. It does not cause paralysis like Marèks does. But they are both viruses that cause cancer.
> I've lost all my Blue Breda pullets from teenage juveniles to young hens and the deaths of two were very sudden while one pullet lingered on for several months never acting quite healthy yet eating and drinking like normal -- she kept losing weight and finally wasted away in spite of vet visits. Leukosis doesn't have Marek's-type symptoms at all like the loss of balance or gradual paralysis. Marek's is a cancer virus of the nervous system/spinal cord and paralyzes, while leukosis is more of an internal organ cancer that doesn't always immediately display outward symptoms. The bird seems normal in every way and then it's noticed to be wasting away or a healthy bird just keels over dead suddenly somewhere between 1 to 2 yrs of age. So many viruses can be at fault but leukosis would be a good virus to test for since a stronger bird can walk around fine for several months before suddenly succumbing and those seemingly outwardly healthy looking birds are the ones you don't want to use for breeding stock. Leukosis is described most likely transferred to chicks from breeding parents.
> Maryellen, your chicks died from something other than those viruses.


It's so frustrating with chickens to know exactly what ails them since so many diseases display the same or similar symptoms. Look at what we chicken owners have to face -- chick mortality caused anywhere from low immunology to dire chicken viruses or bacterium, to full-blown Marek's, Pox, Leukosis, MS/MG, etc diseases. The poultry industry sees chickens as expendable and not worth vaccine research since a euthanized industrial flock can all be replaced in another 21 hatching days and 3 to 4 months to full meat or egg production.


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> Here in nj the npip tests are free. For any other tests there is a charge, I'll find out Friday more details.
> I had 1 chick die at 2 weeks old, and 4 died at pipping, 2 died at a few days old.
> Now would you say that those all leukosis?


Depending on immunology of the hatch how can any of us be certain of what causes early Breda chick mortality -- low immunity, low resistance, low gene pool, bacteria, virus, etc? Read up on chicken diseases and it will blow your mind at all the diseases that can attack our birds. There've been times I just wanted to throw my hands up in failure of raising a backyard flock and then there've been several times my vet has saved my birds and I experience joy with my sweet flock again. Each of us seems to have different problems attack our birds and trying to pinpoint the exact cause can get very frustrating. But that's why I like to dialog with different owners/breeders to see if there are some patterns or solutions we can identify with. I've dialog'd w/ chickendanz who has been experiencing a better chick hatch rate since weeding out some suspect breeding pairs.



Maryellen said:


> I also don't supplement. Only if a bird is sick. So maybe over supplementing is messing with their immune system


My poultry vet has vigorously advised me to vitamin/supplement my flock. I use Rooster Booster multi-wormer vitamins, regular Rooster Booster vitamins, no-iron Poly-Vi-Sol for sick birds that aren't eating the regular Rooster Booster vitamins, electrolyte/vitamin mix in drinking water, and an avian vitamin formula I pick up at PetSmart that is especially tasty mixed with chick starter mash -- at least my chicks really went for it and I think that has helped them stay fortified from getting the dry pox that infected my molting Silkie hen -- her resistance was low during her molt. Molt, breeding, illness, laying hens, brooding, etc, are all good times to especially supplement and I should've been more diligent about making certain my Silkie was getting Poly-Vi-Sol during molt so she could've been better fortified to fend off illness. Vitamins don't mess with immune systems but do the very opposite for good.


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## Maryellen

Oh the 4 chicks that pipped and died here were shipped eggs. So I don't count that


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## seminole wind

I'm glad we're pretty much up to date on how it is now. I hope the Bredas do well . They are certainly beautiful. Another chicken on my list!


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## Sylvester017

seminolewind said:


> I'm glad we're pretty much up to date on how it is now. I hope the Bredas do well . They are certainly beautiful. Another chicken on my list!


I think you will find Breda a nice docile flockmate. I chose not to mix my Breda with more aggressive breeds like RIR or Leghorns because of Breda's more gentle nature. I've always liked the outgoing curious unafraid personality of Dominiques and found the Breda very similar. However, I found my Cuckoo Breda a bit more standoffish than my Blue Breda pullets, but she's still a very docile flockmate and not aggressive. Since I lost all my Blue Breda pullets, I quickly picked up 3 Dominique chicks this summer and because of their Cuckoo feathering they blend with our Cuckoo Breda hen. The instant difference is that the Breda has feathered feet and the chicks don't.

CUCKOO BREDA AND PARTRIDGE SILKIE









CUCKOO BREDA (inside pen) AND BLUE BREDA JUVENILE (lost to leukosis) 








ONE OF THE DOMINIQUE CHICKS - a nice breed to keep with the Cuckoo Breda


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## seminole wind

I love Cuckoo on any bird. Looks cool on Bredas.


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## Sylvester017

seminolewind said:


> I love Cuckoo on any bird. Looks cool on Bredas.


To me, Breda looks regal in any of their color varieties -- they have a stance that makes them look royal -- sort of like a poised Langshan stance. I never thought I would care for Cuckoo birds since we once had a very aggressive Cuckoo Marans so mean we were forced to re-home her. But since having the gentle Cuckoo Breda and personality-filled Dominiques in our flock we've been very happy with all of them. Cuckoo is a very good pattern for a free-range flock to use to hide.


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## Sylvester017

Question re the Blue/Black/Splash chickens. Is it only the Blue variety that you all find are the ones that seem to have health issues -- or is it all the B/B/S colors that have health issues?


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## Wilbur's Mom

how pretty! love the colors on her!


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## seminole wind

I don't know why , but it does seem that blue or splash are not hardy colors. I've seen that happen too. Black chickens do pretty well, but I don't know about black chickens that carry a blue gene.


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## Sylvester017

seminolewind said:


> I don't know why , but it does seem that blue or splash are not hardy colors. I've seen that happen too. Black chickens do pretty well, but I don't know about black chickens that carry a blue gene.


Yep, that's the stumper. I've talked w/ B/B/S breeders who say they've had both hardy Blacks and not-so-hardy Blacks. Which is what made me bring up the question of whether it's just the Blue's that experience a lot of health issues or if it is the entire B/B/S line. I should speak w/ B/B/S breeders of other Blue chicken breeds like Orps and Wyandottes and Cochins and Silkies to see if they have health issues. Of course, my experience w/ Blue Breda from 3 different breeders from 3 different states gave me nothing but heartache at losing every Blue Breda pullet I've had. The Blue male mistakenly shipped to me from Waltz's was okay after treating the poor shipped bird for cocci, worms, and respiratory issue but he's now re-homed to a farm friend, but I lost every Blue pullet at varying ages -- the most tragic was watching my last pullet waste away from leukosis. I am so bummed at trying so hard to have a Blue Breda pullet in my flock, just to have lost all of them no matter what owner/breeder I used. My longest lived Blue girl lived to 11/2 yrs (photo below), last two eggs layed were soft-shelled, then died in her sleep during her afternoon snooze. My old Partridge Silkie was snoozing next to her unaware the Breda was gone. The Blue Breda girl was spunky, energetic, outgoing, full of personality in the morning and then out-of-nowhere dies in her sleep before noon. She was the most gorgeous Blue girl physically and wonderful temperament:

PHAEDRA was our first Blue Breda--after losing her I tried unsuccessfully 4x more to raise Blue Breda









This is Phaedra a day before she died, acting like normal while we worked









I have been reading about using other hardy chicken breeds to infuse some hardiness into the Breda chicken. Some breeders don't like the idea of cross-breeding while some breeders say it's okay to infuse another hardy breed -- although it would take some generations of breeding back to the original Breda type because of the feathered feet and no-comb feature. The American Cuckoo Marans standard is no feathered feet yet once in a while my friend hatched some that had the feathered feet like the European standard so the recessive genes will always be carried but you just don't use those offspring as future breeders. I read that inbreeding or closed line breeding in a small gene pool is what causes the health issues and that cross-breeding to get better health resistance in a weak breed is worth the effort. And after some generations of breeding back to the original "type" only has to have 50% success in offspring that look like the original breed. With true Ameraucana (not Easter Egger) breeding for blue egg color and true standard feather colors is frustrating but only needs a 50% success rate of correct offspring to still qualify as an original Ameraucana. Cross-breeding is used all the time to create new colors in chicken breeds and was how the Cuckoo Breda was created, so I don't see a problem with infusing another hardy breed of chicken into the B/B/S Breda to build a better resistance. Just will take time to breed back to the original "type" to get a 50% offspring result. Any thoughts?


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## Maryellen

I see blue in dogs and cats with alot of health issues, most blues I see have some sort of skin issue or other health issues. I've seen a few blue chickens with issues too. I think it's the blue color, for whatever reason in dogs especially blue dogs have alot of health issues.


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## Sylvester017

The Blue Breda female survival rate has definitely been a problem for me. The one Blue Breda male accidentally shipped to us was riddled with cocci, worms, and respiratory coughing which we treated immediately and then re-homed him to a friend. But we lost every Blue female at various ages. But I am determined to have a healthy bird eventually. I mean chickendanz has Blue Breda that are 7 yrs old so I know it's possible for them to live long and prosper. I just happen to get the ones that don't make it! 

Blue chickens come from Blue/Black/Splash matings so I wonder if it's just the Blue from those matings that are weak or if it's the entire B/B/S matings that are weak? I mean, DC sells Splash and Black Breda, but no Blue -- yet with that B/B/S pairing DC doesn't ever have or sell any Blue Breda? A curiosity that always stumped me. Breeders don't want to divulge any intimate details or failures about breeding in the case it might hurt sales. Breda are a difficult small gene pool to raise at this time but I pray the Creator gives owners/breeders the courage and info to help them strengthen this breed -- it is so worth saving! Right now, I don't think we can count on bringing any new lines from Canada since that is considered "imported." Didn't used to be a problem a decade ago but I think AI in the USA has given rise to more stringent import rules -- not to mention the industrial poultry agriculturists don't want backyarders increasing so rules are getting stricter. Follow the poultry industry money to trace the crime.


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## Maryellen

DC didn't get any blues, her lines were unrelated to gff, which may be part of the underlying issue. I have breda breeder in Canada who has blues, his are hardy and he doesn't have the issues the blue here supposedly has. You can ship eggs to and from Canada easier tgen birds yes, as their rules and quarantine us super strict.
I'll be getting hatching blue eggs in the spring, as I'm meeting him tomorrow with eggs from my hens and DC. He is in nyc visiting family and is driving back to Canada tomorrow. I'm very excited to get eggs from him the next time he comes to the states


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## Maryellen

DC also has seperate coops, her blacks are seperate as are her mottled and cuckoo


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## Maryellen

Sylvester did you ever consider getting a black or mottled? Maybe try a different breeder and color?


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## Sylvester017

@Maryellen -- that's wonderful news about your Canadian contact for Blue's! New breeding stock is so needed in the USA. Please keep us informed when you get them and how they grow healthwise. I will be in the market for a Blue pullet in a couple years -- I hate to face it but I have an older Silkie that is slowing down a lot. I've already had to put one older Silkie down because of a bleeding tumor but this old girl is still hanging on.

As for DC -- they advertise Splash and Black Breda but I have no idea how they have Splash without some Blue hatching out of that? An all-Black pen explains just Black Breda for sale, but what are the DC Splash breeding from -- probably sticking with all Splash breeding parents and forget doing any Blue -- why not Blue? -- must be a reason DC is bypassing Blue? They never answered that question for me. Anyway, however they work their breeding program they have hardy Breda stock.

I already have a Cuckoo Breda that I love -- very docile flock bird -- not human socialized very well because we got her at an older age. But I and especially my DH adore the Blue Breda. Every Blue we've had have had exceptional temperaments and personalities so Blue is still top of the list for our next Breda. The Mottled seem hardy but still have too much white in them for my taste. We free-range our girls and dust-baths really show up dirty on the white feathers. Our White Leghorn always looked dingy from yard dirt. Even the Cuckoo feathers on our Breda will show dingy on the white parts of the feathering but dirt is less obvious on Cuckoo patterns. A Splash or Mottled Breda just wouldn't work in our yard -- too much white feathers. Still, all Breda are wonderful no matter what variety!

P.S. I forgot to add that DC could very easily breed/sell Blue Breda by using a Splash roo over a Black hen and DC has both Black and Splash Breda so I still can't figure why DC doesn't breed or sell Blue Breda? Blue is such a gorgeous variety:


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## Sylvester017

Talked with a BBS Blue breeder (not Breda) and they have no health issues with their BBS breeds of chickens. They never bred Breda so have no idea of the problems we encountered but believe the problems are probably specific to Breda only.


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## Maryellen

I'll ask DC next time I talk to her about if she got any blues. I bred my mottled rooster to my 4 black hens and I got 1 mottled and 3 split to blacks, no blues though. 
Maybe DC just doesn't find the blues to sell good for her, who knows. I saw white on the Breda forum on fb, these were beautiful they were over in europe. Sylvester you should also join the Breda forum on fb if you belong to it, alot of super knowledgeable breda breeders


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## seminole wind

I would imagine you could improve hardiness by breeding a feather legged Langsham in or a Brahma. I know these serious breeders do that for colors and it takes a lot of breeding and most likely disposing chicks that are not the right color.


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## seminole wind

Black and Blue = BBS. Blue and Blue=splash . I forget the rest. The blacks from the BBS breeding carry a blue gene. I used a black roo like that and a blue hen and ended up with all blues.


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## Maryellen

The breeders don't like adding other breeds as that makes the breed unpure. There was a Huge discussion on the Landrance forum how a breeder added a breed to improve what she had-oh boy did it get Nasty and they banned her as she didn't gave pure stock anymore... she was put on a do not buy list. ... it was crazy


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## seminole wind

How do you think breeders got where they are? How do you think those purebreds came about? In horses, purebreds have to be 75% of listed breed. 

The only one that got good at breeding blues was Maria's A-1 Blue Jersey Giants. Very healthy and sturdy. My oldest is 8.


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## boskelli1571

So - here you all are! Thought I'd join up with the Breda crowd again!
My mottled are coming along very well, no health issues there.
I have 3 blue girls - all from different places, 1 black and 1 blue boy. I hope that next year will see some chicks....
I really haven't had health issues with mine (touch wood), but we'll see how the winter goes.
Gomez the black roo has an abscess over his right eye - probably from one of his pen mates that he terrorizes 
Antibiotic shot, pills and anti inflammatory meds for him over the next few days. Everyone at the vets' office thought he was pretty cool looking


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## Maryellen

Hey boskelli!!


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## Maryellen

Oh karen I know you gotta mix to get the breeds arround, I'm just saying some folks go nuts when they find out people add breeds to strengthen the breed.


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> Hey boskelli!!


Hi there...it's pretty quiet over the 'other place'....how are you? love your pix. I wish I had the talent to take some better pix of my crew - maybe I'll get my photographer neighbor down here..


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## Maryellen

I'm good. Trust me I take 50 pics to get 2 good ones with my cell lol.. the chickens don't stay still to long so I take as many as I can to get that one or two good ones .
Yeah I hated the ads on the other forum, it took forever to upload the site too.


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## Maryellen

You gotta post pics of your chicks , they are whst e months old now? I'd love to see how they turned out


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> I'll ask DC next time I talk to her about if she got any blues. I bred my mottled rooster to my 4 black hens and I got 1 mottled and 3 split to blacks, no blues though.
> Maybe DC just doesn't find the blues to sell good for her, who knows. I saw white on the Breda forum on fb, these were beautiful they were over in europe. Sylvester you should also join the Breda forum on fb if you belong to it, alot of super knowledgeable breda breeders


With your Mottleds and Blacks I don't believe you'll get any Blue offspring. The B/B/S chart says to breed Splash roo to a Black hen (or vice-versa?) to get 100% Blue offspring. However, in talking w/ chickendanz who's been breeding them for over 7 years, she says breeding rules go out the window where Breda are concerned and you never can count on what shows up in a Breda hatch. Makes Breda a very unique breed to work with when you get surprises.

I asked DC via text once about why they didn't have Blue Breda and the only response was that they didn't have or sell Blue -- only Black or Splash Breda -- at the time I inquired it was a couple years back. Blue Breda can come out either washed out light Blue to very dark laced Blue and DC probably didn't want to deal with such a variable Blue pattern with leftover pale Blue chicks. Can't blame them -- I love all Breda pale or dark just because they are Breda, but I admit I am very partial to the darker hackles and distinct laced body feathers of the Blue Breda we've had. It's probably the darker Blue-laced that's also desired in other Blue chicken breeds like Andalusian, Brahma, Cochin, JG's, Langshan, etc etc etc.

chickendanz had a white Breda hen about 7 yrs old but due to respiratory ailments reluctantly had to put her down and she hated to do it. She worked at treating her but guess the old hen just gave up. Have no idea if she ever got any white offspring from that hen.

I don't do social media -- Facebook, Twitter, Etc -- and just stick to the chicken websites. My DH belongs to FB but only for fewer than 10 friends. I do keep FB, etc, in mind, just haven't had the need for them so far.


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## Sylvester017

seminolewind said:


> I would imagine you could improve hardiness by breeding a feather legged Langsham in or a Brahma. I know these serious breeders do that for colors and it takes a lot of breeding and most likely disposing chicks that are not the right color.


Langshan is another stately breed I would love to have. The females are just as gorgeous as the males and some people are breeding them in Blue. Even some chicken brokers/hatcheries are offering them in Blue now.

I think Langshan would be a great cross-breed with the Breda for improving the gene pool. Wish I could do it but we're not zoned for roos. I'm just grateful my city allows backyard chickens period! Surrounding cities have bans on livestock so I feel lucky I can at least have my few hens.

Breeding Langshan to Breda would take some generations to get back to the Breda "type" and in the breeding program those offspring can't be sold as "pure" until the offspring breed true from later-generation parents that show the right type. People who sell the experimental offspring should never re-home or sell them as anything but barnyard mixes until the breeding program shows a 50% or better success rate of offspring with the right "type" and color. Crossing breeds is how we introduce new colors in a chicken and how new breeds get created -- it just takes a few generations to get back to the original breed type. Barred Rocks were originally straight-comb Dominiques crossed with Malay and other game breeds to increase their size and remove their broody tendency. NHR were developed from RIR and Cornish cross meat birds are crossbred with White Rock and Cornish chickens. In fact, Cornish game chickens were used a lot to increase weight on many chicken breeds to make them more dual purpose for the table. So, cross-breeding can be used for many purposes. Breeders often use cross-breeding to improve genetics and resistance with the knowledge that it will take successive breeding generations to get back to the right type.

Because Breda are such a beautiful smooth-feathered chicken with little under-down, I wouldn't cross with something so heavily-feathered as a Brahma or Orpington because that would be a long affair getting those fluffy feathers out of the successive Breda generations.

Decades ago there were no Buff Leghorns yet a man named Dan Honour introduced other Buff chicken breeds to Leghorns and eventually created some beautiful Buff Leghorns -- he even experimented adding long-tail Phoenix to the Buff Leghorns and created some outstanding Buff Leghorn males. He even bred some Rose-comb Buff Legs. His passion was Leghorns and the Buff color and made it his life's hobby -- even had published poultry articles in magazines. I had the pleasure of owning a couple of his Buff Leghorns. Just because they were Buff color, they still were very much Leghorn in looks and personality. I know a breeder who used his Buff Leghorns to cross with her Araucana because a Buff Araucana had not existed yet and she successfully bred it without losing the blue egg color of the little chicken breed. It only took about 3 years of the experimental breeding to get back to a "pure" Araucana with the desired Buff color result and still retain its blue egg gene. For ultimate success a Buff Araucana male would have to mate a Buff Araucana female and have a 50% success hatch rate of the right type to be considered meeting standard or be "pure" again as some people would say.

I get so excited talking about the possibilities for breeding or improving the wonderful Breda!


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> The breeders don't like adding other breeds as that makes the breed unpure. There was a Huge discussion on the Landrance forum how a breeder added a breed to improve what she had-oh boy did it get Nasty and they banned her as she didn't gave pure stock anymore... she was put on a do not buy list. ... it was crazy


Ignorance frightens people if they don't do their research. So it's a shame what people do to other people. Of course, there are some ignorant breeders too, so that's where "buyer beware" really comes in handy.

I read, read, read, talk, talk, talk, ask, ask, ask questions yet I'm still not afraid to change my mind if I learn something new or get another good perspective from experienced people. I've received shipped birds from breeders who weren't aware their birds would not survive shipping, or the birds stressed to the point that cocci or respiratory issues showed, and some had worms. All things that there's no way a breeder can really know at the time of shipping which is why I take it on myself to take shipped birds to the vet with fecal samples. As soon as that bird hits my house, she's my responsibility. The only time I really faulted a breeder was when they shipped me a male when I ordered a female. Nowadays, I'm more inclined to order vaccinated birds whenever possible, but that's just me.


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> So - here you all are! Thought I'd join up with the Breda crowd again!
> My mottled are coming along very well, no health issues there.
> I have 3 blue girls - all from different places, 1 black and 1 blue boy. I hope that next year will see some chicks....
> I really haven't had health issues with mine (touch wood), but we'll see how the winter goes.
> Gomez the black roo has an abscess over his right eye - probably from one of his pen mates that he terrorizes
> Antibiotic shot, pills and anti inflammatory meds for him over the next few days. Everyone at the vets' office thought he was pretty cool looking


 Hi -- hope Gomez gets better!

Here's my Silkie today with her dry pox almost completely healed over. Poor thing was molting so her resistance was down and she got pox. But she's doing much better and just waiting for her crest quills to fill out. Her eyes were swollen shut, she had no appetite, she was miserable from the new quills but vet likes the progress she's made. She has one more crusty bump on top of her beak to drop off and then we'll put her back with the others. We have ophthalmic antibiotic on her face so she looks wet but trust me she is doing 100% better. She's my oldest hen so a bit special. 









The vet sadly had to put down our other old Black Silkie from a bleeding ovarian tumor and I miss the little spunky girl.


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## seminole wind

Awww. I've had a few cases of really nasty pox. I'm glad yours is getting over it.


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> Hi -- hope Gomez gets better!
> 
> Here's my Silkie today with her dry pox almost completely healed over. Poor thing was molting so her resistance was down and she got pox. But she's doing much better and just waiting for her crest quills to fill out. Her eyes were swollen shut, she had no appetite, she was miserable from the new quills but vet likes the progress she's made. She has one more crusty bump on top of her beak to drop off and then we'll put her back with the others. We have ophthalmic antibiotic on her face so she looks wet but trust me she is doing 100% better. She's my oldest hen so a bit special.
> View attachment 28645
> 
> 
> The vet sadly had to put down our other old Black Silkie from a bleeding ovarian tumor and I miss the little spunky girl.
> View attachment 28646


Hope she's healing well - sad news about your black Silkie 
So I did a quick photo shoot today, but I guess I can't add photo's yet?
Anyway, Gomez has been on antibiotics for 24 hours now, no signs of improvement, but it is early. He was such a good boy when I gave him his pill and liquid.
Lurch, his hatch-mate loves to come outside now and be social. Poor thing was terrified of Gomez - even though they are now side by side he is doing well. Gomez has his beak full with 2 RIR/Welsummer roos sharing with him. He seems to have calmed them down nicely
My little hatchling 'Speedy' is doing well - I'm pretty sure it's a girl, but time will tell.
Hope everyone is well,


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## seminole wind

Maryellen said:


> I'm good. Trust me I take 50 pics to get 2 good ones with my cell lol.. the chickens don't stay still to long so I take as many as I can to get that one or two good ones .
> Yeah I hated the ads on the other forum, it took forever to upload the site too.


Sign of a good photographer.


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## Maryellen

Hey boskelli if you take pics with your cell and log on with your cell you can upload right from your cell. That's what I do. I would love to see how your chicks look like now


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> Hope she's healing well - sad news about your black Silkie
> So I did a quick photo shoot today, but I guess I can't add photo's yet?
> Anyway, Gomez has been on antibiotics for 24 hours now, no signs of improvement, but it is early. He was such a good boy when I gave him his pill and liquid.
> Lurch, his hatch-mate loves to come outside now and be social. Poor thing was terrified of Gomez - even though they are now side by side he is doing well. Gomez has his beak full with 2 RIR/Welsummer roos sharing with him. He seems to have calmed them down nicely
> My little hatchling 'Speedy' is doing well - I'm pretty sure it's a girl, but time will tell.
> Hope everyone is well,


Yep, I hate losing a long-time chicken that was our favorite barnyard clown -- we could always count on the Black Silkie for a chuckle or two and she was so incredibly spunky and talkative. Even when she must've been in horrible pain from the cancer, she came to us when we called her and tried to act normal as usual - all the while she was slowly bleeding internally. It's just no fun treating an illness or enduring the loss of an ailing chicken friend. New chicks in the yard help to ease the loss, but just can't forget the loss of our old "friend." So glad the vet helped us treat the old Partridge Silkie back to health. I don't think I could bear losing another bird this year! We've already lost 5 birds to known and unknown illnesses this past year and I just don't want to make it 6 birds yet!

3 new Dominique chicks - August









Cuckoo Breda standing with 3 Dominique chicks in a rare rest pose! October 









Old Partridge Silkie -- recuperating from dry pox and molting


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> Hey boskelli if you take pics with your cell and log on with your cell you can upload right from your cell. That's what I do. I would love to see how your chicks look like now


Hah! I'm in the Stone Age - don't have a cell. Where we live we don't get reception so....landline only 
1st pic is Speedy 8 wks; 2nd Lurch; 3rd Gomez; 4&5 the mottleds, you can see a black split there also


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> Hey boskelli if you take pics with your cell and log on with your cell you can upload right from your cell. That's what I do. I would love to see how your chicks look like now


In January I got a new Canon DSLR camera w/ all the fancy accessories to capture beautiful photos of running chickens at several frames a second but I've been so lazy using my pocket point-and-shoot digital Nikon that I've taken only ONE picture w/ the DSLR since January! Like you said, it takes several pictures to get one or two good frames of chickens -- no matter WHAT camera method is used. My little Nikon digital isn't a DSLR but some of the pictures I take with it really surprises me. Sometimes I get lucky and one picture is all I snap and then other times I get 10 pictures of nothing but photo bombs. You just never know with chickens!


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## Sylvester017

@boskelli1571 -- did you ever get any Blue chicks that survived? I know you had the two older Blue hens but did you have/get any new Blue chicks? Speedy is very pretty. Mottleds are gorgeous. You keep them so nice and white! They'd look like muddy toads if they were rolling around in MY yard!


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## Maryellen

Oh boskelli the mottled are beautiful! Your blue and blacks are gorgeous too!!.how many hatched from the rfr eggs you got?


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> Oh boskelli the mottled are beautiful! Your blue and blacks are gorgeous too!!.how many hatched from the rfr eggs you got?


Out of the 16 eggs only one hatched - Speedy. She is the palest of blue. Very friendly and quiet.
I raised her with some Salmon Favs so she had some friends.
The mottled are clean for now, but its' been raining for 3 days now so it will turn into a mud bath soon. I don't find the mottleds as friendly as the blues, but that may just be that they arrived as chicks rather than eggs.


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## boskelli1571

boskelli1571 said:


> Out of the 16 eggs only one hatched - Speedy. She is the palest of blue. Very friendly and quiet.
> I raised her with some Salmon Favs so she had some friends.
> The mottled are clean for now, but its' been raining for 3 days now so it will turn into a mud bath soon. I don't find the mottleds as friendly as the blues, but that may just be that they arrived as chicks rather than eggs.


I didn't get the eggs from RFR - just the mottleds'. I got the eggs from Chicken Danz - Kansas seems to have a problem with their postal service. Everything I have gotten from Ks is dead or damaged - they must throw those boxes across the sorting room and then kick them for good measure


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## Maryellen

Isn't Chicken Danz.rare Feather Ranch In CA?


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## Maryellen

Speedy looks beautiful I love her color


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> Isn't Chicken Danz.rare Feather Ranch In CA?


No - Chicken Danz (Verna) is in Kansas. Can't remember the name of the gal that has RFR...


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> Speedy looks beautiful I love her color


Thank you! I have an older pale blue hen too - hoping for chicks next year..


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## Maryellen

Christine is rfr. Ok I thought they were the same. Good to know the difference. 
That stinks the Kansas eggs didn't hatch


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> Thank you! I have an older pale blue hen too - hoping for chicks next year..


@boskelli1571 You had a photo of a couple older Blue hens -- one pale and one darker -- do you still have both of those older girls?

A couple years ago I ordered a Blue Breda pullet and Blue Ameraucana from Waltz's Ark in CO (Dr. Lisa) and they mixed up the order and sent me a 4-month-old MALE Blue Breda and a 4-month-old Blue Ameraucana pullet. Both had cocci and worms and the male Breda had sneezing. We treated both birds but the Ameraucana pullet was immediately displaying Marek's symptoms and had to be put down after the vet watched her deteriorate for a couple weeks. The Blue Breda male survived after treatments and we re-homed him with a farm friend who didn't mind the male's health issues -- our friend rescues unwanted roosters and has rescued many birds with serious health problems with a love that is beyond my scope. That Blue Breda roo is still alive and well 2 yrs later. Our friend says he is an indoor/outdoor roo that likes to take over their dog's bed to sleep in. Here's "Ichabod" in our friend's home.









After re-homing sweet "Ichabod" I still wanted a Blue Breda pullet. Our next experience with Blue Breda was RFR of CA. I was shipped a Blue Breda pullet from RFR of CA (Christine) and that gorgeous Blue girl arrived with sneezing, cocci, and worms, and after treating immediately she lived until she was one-&-a-half years old and died suddenly during her midday snooze. When she began laying eggs as a pullet, she never stopped laying eggs for 10+ consecutive months which we thought was unusual but knowing nothing about Breda at the time just considered it par for the breed. Her last two eggs were soft-shell and we just thought she was finally ending her laying cycle for the year -- but 2 days later she was gone. No outward symptoms or signs of illness. Did she die from reproductive issues, internal organ problems, what? -- we don't know. "Phaedra" was outgoing, curious, friendly, and LOVED the camera lens!









We loved "Phaedra" so much -- she was so beautiful, spunky, gentle with her flockmates, and best all-around breed, so I ordered another Breda pullet from RFR. RFR had closed out their B/B/S Breda and were going into Mottled. RFR was also closing out their Cuckoo Breda so I decided on getting one of her two remaining Cuckoo RFR pullets. This Cuckoo arrived with no sneezing issues or health problems that the vet could see. This RFR Cuckoo Breda is still with us today at about one-&-a-half years old. I pray that this Cuckoo is hardier than "Phaedra" (the RFR Blue pullet). The RFR Cuckoo is a docile flockmate but doesn't have the outgoing friendly human inter-action that"Phaedra" had. Could be because we got the Cuckoo as an adult rather than a juvenile. I socialized her in-house for a few weeks but she never lost her skittishness. She is a slow-moving, gentle soul, and sudden movements or noises really startle her -- moreso than even the skittish Blue Wheaten Ameraucana we once had. Here is the RFR Cuckoo which I named "H.R.H. Charlotte Elizabeth Diana, Princess of Cambridge," but we just call her "Char" -- she is standoffish like royalty so her titled name suits her perfectly!









"Char" is a great flockmate but I still wanted a BLUE Breda. So, earlier this year in March from chickendanz (Verna) I was shipped two Blue Breda pullet juveniles -- lost one before the week was over, and the second pullet only lived for about 5 months and died from what we suspect was avian leukosis. The pullet was eating and drinking but did not grow well and was very thin until she wasted away. The vet said she would not make it although the Baytril injection perked her up for a day but then she reversed into lethargy and died a couple days later. chickendanz raises so many different breeds of chickens, game birds like pheasants, peacocks in snow white and regular, Sebastopol geese in two colors, guinea fowl in different colors, turkeys too I think, Pyrenese puppies, miniature Highland cattle, and I don't know what else, so she's a fairly experienced livestock farmer. She even studied to be a vet at one time. I know she's raised Breda about 7 years and she and I have had dialog about the mortality of Breda. She's done a lot of weeding of Breda stock this summer to improve the outcome of successive hatches. She's the only Breda breeder I know that is into working with only B/B/S Breda. She even has a disabled Black Breda pet hen as a house chicken. She continues raising Breda even though there isn't a huge demand for them but when she has customers that come to purchase her other birds, some people can't resist taking home a couple Breda after seeing them. She once had a pure white Breda hen but had to put the old hen down because of recurring respiratory issues (which B/B/S Breda seem to be famous for -- every BLUE Breda I've had from different breeders from different states arrived w/ respiratory issues). chickendanz's Blue girls were as gorgeous as could be but shipping from KS must've put a lot of stress on these juveniles as both had developed bloody cocci, and some sniffles, which we treated immediately right out of the shipping box. "Kaylah" (in the background) was dead before the week went by and "Tova" (in the front) finally grew in her new tail feathers and lived for another 5 months before she wasted away from leukosis -- leukosis is a death sentence with no "cure" or known treatment -- it is a virus that attacks internal organs -- the liver I think.
We socialized "Tova" indoors for several weeks but I never felt comfortable about integrating her outdoors. She was friendly, pesty, took over sleeping on my computer chair, and was the sweetest darling -- I miss her.









I am not giving up. I WILL have my Blue Breda pullet someday. Meanwhile we scrambled to order 3 Dominique chicks from our local feed store in August before chick season was over. To me, Breda and Dominique have the same outgoing friendly unafraid personality and Dominique chicks were easier to get last minute than Breda so now we have 3 little busy-bodies to add to our Partridge Silkie and Cuckoo Breda hen

RFR Cuckoo Breda hen "CHAR"









AUGUST - 3 Privett Hatchery Dominique chicks - "OPAL" "JEWLZ" and "DANA" 









My DH calls these DOMS the "Powerpuff Girls" because they fly everywhere! 









The two adult hens together -- the old Silkie "VIOLET" and Cuckoo "CHAR"


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> @boskelli1571 You had a photo of a couple older Blue hens -- one pale and one darker -- do you still have both of those older girls?
> 
> A couple years ago I ordered a Blue Breda pullet and Blue Ameraucana from Waltz's Ark in CO (Dr. Lisa) and they mixed up the order and sent me a 4-month-old MALE Blue Breda and a 4-month-old Blue Ameraucana pullet. Both had cocci and worms and the male Breda had sneezing. We treated both birds but the Ameraucana pullet was immediately displaying Marek's symptoms and had to be put down after the vet watched her deteriorate for a couple weeks. The Blue Breda male survived after treatments and we re-homed him with a farm friend who didn't mind the male's health issues -- our friend rescues unwanted roosters and has rescued many birds with serious health problems with a love that is beyond my scope. That Blue Breda roo is still alive and well 2 yrs later. Our friend says he is an indoor/outdoor roo that likes to take over their dog's bed to sleep in. Here's "Ichabod" in our friend's home.
> View attachment 28667
> 
> 
> After re-homing sweet "Ichabod" I still wanted a Blue Breda pullet. Our next experience with Blue Breda was RFR of CA. I was shipped a Blue Breda pullet from RFR of CA (Christine) and that gorgeous Blue girl arrived with sneezing, cocci, and worms, and after treating immediately she lived until she was one-&-a-half years old and died suddenly during her midday snooze. When she began laying eggs as a pullet, she never stopped laying eggs for 10+ consecutive months which we thought was unusual but knowing nothing about Breda at the time just considered it par for the breed. Her last two eggs were soft-shell and we just thought she was finally ending her laying cycle for the year -- but 2 days later she was gone. No outward symptoms or signs of illness. Did she die from reproductive issues, internal organ problems, what? -- we don't know. "Phaedra" was outgoing, curious, friendly, and LOVED the camera lens!
> View attachment 28668
> 
> 
> We loved "Phaedra" so much -- she was so beautiful, spunky, gentle with her flockmates, and best all-around breed, so I ordered another Breda pullet from RFR. RFR had closed out their B/B/S Breda and were going into Mottled. RFR was also closing out their Cuckoo Breda so I decided on getting one of her two remaining Cuckoo RFR pullets. This Cuckoo arrived with no sneezing issues or health problems that the vet could see. This RFR Cuckoo Breda is still with us today at about one-&-a-half years old. I pray that this Cuckoo is hardier than "Phaedra" (the RFR Blue pullet). The RFR Cuckoo is a docile flockmate but doesn't have the outgoing friendly human inter-action that"Phaedra" had. Could be because we got the Cuckoo as an adult rather than a juvenile. I socialized her in-house for a few weeks but she never lost her skittishness. She is a slow-moving, gentle soul, and sudden movements or noises really startle her -- moreso than even the skittish Blue Wheaten Ameraucana we once had. Here is the RFR Cuckoo which I named "H.R.H. Charlotte Elizabeth Diana, Princess of Cambridge," but we just call her "Char" -- she is standoffish like royalty so her titled name suits her perfectly!
> View attachment 28669
> 
> 
> "Char" is a great flockmate but I still wanted a BLUE Breda. So, earlier this year in March from chickendanz (Verna) I was shipped two Blue Breda pullet juveniles -- lost one before the week was over, and the second pullet only lived for about 5 months and died from what we suspect was avian leukosis. The pullet was eating and drinking but did not grow well and was very thin until she wasted away. The vet said she would not make it although the Baytril injection perked her up for a day but then she reversed into lethargy and died a couple days later. chickendanz raises so many different breeds of chickens, game birds like pheasants, peacocks in snow white and regular, Sebastopol geese in two colors, guinea fowl in different colors, turkeys too I think, Pyrenese puppies, miniature Highland cattle, and I don't know what else, so she's a fairly experienced livestock farmer. She even studied to be a vet at one time. I know she's raised Breda about 7 years and she and I have had dialog about the mortality of Breda. She's done a lot of weeding of Breda stock this summer to improve the outcome of successive hatches. She's the only Breda breeder I know that is into working with only B/B/S Breda. She even has a disabled Black Breda pet hen as a house chicken. She continues raising Breda even though there isn't a huge demand for them but when she has customers that come to purchase her other birds, some people can't resist taking home a couple Breda after seeing them. She once had a pure white Breda hen but had to put the old hen down because of recurring respiratory issues (which B/B/S Breda seem to be famous for -- every BLUE Breda I've had from different breeders from different states arrived w/ respiratory issues). chickendanz's Blue girls were as gorgeous as could be but shipping from KS must've put a lot of stress on these juveniles as both had developed bloody cocci, and some sniffles, which we treated immediately right out of the shipping box. "Kaylah" (in the background) was dead before the week went by and "Tova" (in the front) finally grew in her new tail feathers and lived for another 5 months before she wasted away from leukosis -- leukosis is a death sentence with no "cure" or known treatment -- it is a virus that attacks internal organs -- the liver I think.
> We socialized "Tova" indoors for several weeks but I never felt comfortable about integrating her outdoors. She was friendly, pesty, took over sleeping on my computer chair, and was the sweetest darling -- I miss her.
> View attachment 28670
> 
> 
> I am not giving up. I WILL have my Blue Breda pullet someday. Meanwhile we scrambled to order 3 Dominique chicks from our local feed store in August before chick season was over. To me, Breda and Dominique have the same outgoing friendly unafraid personality and Dominique chicks were easier to get last minute than Breda so now we have 3 little busy-bodies to add to our Partridge Silkie and Cuckoo Breda hen
> 
> RFR Cuckoo Breda hen "CHAR"
> View attachment 28672
> 
> 
> AUGUST - 3 Privett Hatchery Dominique chicks - "OPAL" "JEWLZ" and "DANA"
> View attachment 28673
> 
> 
> My DH calls these DOMS the "Powerpuff Girls" because they fly everywhere!
> View attachment 28674
> 
> 
> The two adult hens together -- the old Silkie "VIOLET" and Cuckoo "CHAR"
> View attachment 28671


Hi Syl - yes I still have the older girls - Ms. Blue (darker) and Little Blue.
From the first batch of chicks Danz sent me I also have a darker blue pullet - Morticia. I plan to breed all three with Lurch first. Although his comb is nowhere near 'perfection' I'm hoping I can breed it out - his personality is very sweet.
I will also breed them to Gomez since he is much nearer perfection - but has a mean streak with other roosters. He has been very compliant with me giving him his medicine twice a day. I expected a fight but didn't get one!
Who knows? maybe one of the offspring has your name on it


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## Maryellen

Hey boskelli, do you ship hatching eggs? I have a friend of mine looking for blue breda eggs as he has blues


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> Hey boskelli, do you ship hatching eggs? I have a friend of mine looking for blue breda eggs as he has blues


Well.....I have never shipped eggs, but I can certainly try for you - when they start to produce. Just so you know, I am not NPIP as yet, although all the mottleds' are NPIP from RFR. I'm sure they will have to be re-credentialed now they are here.
I have been dragging my feet on NPIP simply b/c I had so much other stuff to straighten out first. I did ship a golden Spitz rooster (non-NPIP) - USPS didn't even ask. His new Mama is very happy with him 
So - yes, I'm blathering on  but willing to do eggs, probably come Springtime....he doesn't live in Kansas does he??


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## seminole wind

I once bred a Black Jersey Giant who was a split to black (carried a blue gene) to a black hen and got all blue offspring. So I'm thinking that maybe there's something you can do to hardy up the breed by using some split to blacks. Or maybe I'm naïve and you already know this stuff.


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> I once bred a Black Jersey Giant who was a split to black (carried a blue gene) to a black hen and got all blue offspring. So I'm thinking that maybe there's something you can do to hardy up the breed by using some split to blacks. Or maybe I'm naïve and you already know this stuff.


I will be the first to admit I'm very new at the genetics thing. Everyone has been very helpful with the B/B/S genetics and I think I 'get it'. It seems very straightforward however running lines over 3+ generations would get messy I think.
For now I will stick with the little I know - I'm chicken!


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> Hi Syl - yes I still have the older girls - Ms. Blue (darker) and Little Blue.
> From the first batch of chicks Danz sent me I also have a darker blue pullet - Morticia. I plan to breed all three with Lurch first. Although his comb is nowhere near 'perfection' I'm hoping I can breed it out - his personality is very sweet.
> I will also breed them to Gomez since he is much nearer perfection - but has a mean streak with other roosters. He has been very compliant with me giving him his medicine twice a day. I expected a fight but didn't get one!
> Who knows? maybe one of the offspring has your name on it


New B/B/S offspring would be splendid. I get so excited seeing this wonderful breed continue on! Breda aren't just a gorgeous unique-looking bird, they have the fantastic temperament of docileness, flock compatibility, and family-friendly demeanor. You don't need to worry about hens around children. The one Blue roo we had was a sweetie but I can't vouch for all Breda roos. Roo's have a job to do and some of them really take their duties seriously! Breeding Lurch might give you some heartache offspring if you have to battle an imperfect comb -- it's a trait that will continue on in future generations. Of course, at this moment in time with so few Breda breeders ANY Breda breeding is welcome to get a diverse gene pool. Gomez might be assertive w/ other roo's but how does he behave w/ humans? -- that to me is important. I hear so many other rooster breeds sneak-attack their owners or children or maim hens during mating -- those are the ones I wouldn't use as breeders. But two Breda roo's asserting themselves between each other is par for the course. Usually as they age and get a harem of their own they leave each other alone.


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> New B/B/S offspring would be splendid. I get so excited seeing this wonderful breed continue on! Breda aren't just a gorgeous unique-looking bird, they have the fantastic temperament of docileness, flock compatibility, and family-friendly demeanor. You don't need to worry about hens around children. The one Blue roo we had was a sweetie but I can't vouch for all Breda roos. Roo's have a job to do and some of them really take their duties seriously! Breeding Lurch might give you some heartache offspring if you have to battle an imperfect comb -- it's a trait that will continue on in future generations. Of course, at this moment in time with so few Breda breeders ANY Breda breeding is welcome to get a diverse gene pool. Gomez might be assertive w/ other roo's but how does he behave w/ humans? -- that to me is important. I hear so many other rooster breeds sneak-attack their owners or children or maim hens during mating -- those are the ones I wouldn't use as breeders. But two Breda roo's asserting themselves between each other is par for the course. Usually as they age and get a harem of their own they leave each other alone.


Gomez has been a darling with me. Although he doesn't care for being held, he has had ample opportunity to peck at me while being medicated and he hasn't even tried! He seems to get along quite well with the 2 other roosters in his pen, so I think Lurch was just super fearful of him and extremely docile.
I'm really looking forward to the Spring time to start my breeding endeavors with these boys.
I have to say that although I do like the mottleds, I am not as in love with them as I am with the blues & blacks. In fact, it is likely that I will be selling most of the mottleds as trios come Springtime.


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> Gomez has been a darling with me. Although he doesn't care for being held, he has had ample opportunity to peck at me while being medicated and he hasn't even tried! He seems to get along quite well with the 2 other roosters in his pen, so I think Lurch was just super fearful of him and extremely docile.
> I'm really looking forward to the Spring time to start my breeding endeavors with these boys.
> I have to say that although I do like the mottleds, I am not as in love with them as I am with the blues & blacks. In fact, it is likely that I will be selling most of the mottleds as trios come Springtime.


Don't know what your space is like but Mottleds might be worth keeping a trio for yourself just because of their hardiness if your Mottled aren't displaying mortality issues like the B/B/S. RFR phased out her B/B/S and Cuckoos and only has Mottled now. With her space I would've kept all 3 Breda pens rather than phasing out any one color. Though I think she likes experimenting with different breeds of chickens every year and is currently enthralled with other breeds of chickens in lavender -- can't blame her for having a fun hobby. My Cuckoo is a larger bird, tall, statuesque and apparently a hardy line from RFR who got her original Cuckoo stock from Dutch Connection. Wish I had the zoning and space to keep all 3 kinds of Breda -- Cuckoo, Mottled, B/B/S, and White if one ever popped up during breeding. Breda colors are always a surprise.

Yep, I don't know any chicken that really likes being held down during medication. It takes two of us to give our Silkie her medicine -- DH kinda sits at the table to make sure she doesn't fly or jump off while I apply the medicine on her face which she hates but I put my fingers around her neck loosely so she can't pull her head away while I apply ointment on her beak. Chickens don't mind jumping into our lap or onto our arm but as soon as they see hands or fingers they run. My Dominiques tolerate our petting but only for a couple seconds and then they're running off somewhere else to explore. I have to use treats to keep them around for petting. The judge's hold is something they look forward to because it means they get popcorn!


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> Don't know what your space is like but Mottleds might be worth keeping a trio for yourself just because of their hardiness if your Mottled aren't displaying mortality issues like the B/B/S. RFR phased out her B/B/S and Cuckoos and only has Mottled now. With her space I would've kept all 3 Breda pens rather than phasing out any one color. Though I think she likes experimenting with different breeds of chickens every year and is currently enthralled with other breeds of chickens in lavender -- can't blame her for having a fun hobby. My Cuckoo is a larger bird, tall, statuesque and apparently a hardy line from RFR who got her original Cuckoo stock from Dutch Connection. Wish I had the zoning and space to keep all 3 kinds of Breda -- Cuckoo, Mottled, B/B/S, and White if one ever popped up during breeding. Breda colors are always a surprise.
> 
> Yep, I don't know any chicken that really likes being held down during medication. It takes two of us to give our Silkie her medicine -- DH kinda sits at the table to make sure she doesn't fly or jump off while I apply the medicine on her face which she hates but I put my fingers around her neck loosely so she can't pull her head away while I apply ointment on her beak. Chickens don't mind jumping into our lap or onto our arm but as soon as they see hands or fingers they run. My Dominiques tolerate our petting but only for a couple seconds and then they're running off somewhere else to explore. I have to use treats to keep them around for petting. The judge's hold is something they look forward to because it means they get popcorn!


You're right Syl. I will probably keep one trio....my B/B/S are looking so healthy right now (except for Gomezs' eye - no improvement), I'm really tempted to start the breeding program early....but I think that would be foolhardy. Other than the barn there is nowhere warm I can keep them while they are brooding/growing.
I'm going to set a heater in our studio and see how good a job it does and how much $$$ it costs to heat the small area. If all works out, then I will start earlier than planned for.
BTW - love your Doms - they are so cute


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## Sylvester017

I'm really sorry about Gomez's eye. Do you think it was an injury or maybe an infection he picked up? I get so worried when something is around a chicken's eye like my Violet when she got the dry pox and both eyes were glued shut from the awful pustules. She is doing so much better but the last crust on her beak still has not fallen off and it's been almost a month treating her indoors. She's anxious to go outdoors and join the others but not until her beak is totally "clean."

So, you need a heater? If it doesn't get below freezing you may not need a heater. I can't remember what state you live in. Here in SoCalif we leave the coop's pop door open all through winter for ventilation and in summer we trade out the solid coop floor to slide in the open kennel wire floor because of our hot climate. People on the East Coast worry about cold weather and blizzards while we on the West Coast worry about heatwaves and fires!

This was our "Phaedra" from RFR inspecting the wire floor for summer









Chicken pop-door entrance into the coop - a perch is situated just over the pop door but doesn't show in this photo. 









The chicken pop door stays open 24/7 -- we have a sturdy dog kennel run surrounding so we don't worry about raccoons or other predators entering the coop. There's a concrete slab foundation below and a patio roof overhead the coop and pen but we still use a tarp to cover the front of this pen during our occasional rainstorms.


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## seminole wind

I think Gomez eye may be genetic like a Jersey I had. Not good for breeding.

It sounds like all of you are looking for those Blues that are hardier. It may be a good project to produce those hardy ones. Find out what the norm is of those breeding not so hardy blues and then figure out how to work around what is being done without doing what they're doing. There are breeders (in my world) who breed very hardy blue jerseys. It is possible. Those Bredas seem to be a breed that's well worth saving and improving.


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## Sylvester017

@boskelli1571

I HAVE to post recent snaps of the 3 Dom's getting treats from DH - they're getting so big -- I remember a time when all 3 chicks fit into one hand









Dana doesn't like to be pushy, leaves the treats behind, and gives her face a scratching 









Jewlz and Opal are focused on every last bite!


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## boskelli1571

Well...a sad, bad day here. Gomezs' eye abscess showing no improvement, so off to the vets. We decided that lancing was the only good option - despite the anesthesia risk.








Poor Gomez passed while the doc was cleaning out all the necrotic muck inside....:
R.I.P Gomez - you will be missed


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## Maryellen

Oh no I'm so sorry to hear this


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## Sylvester017

@boskelli1571 
OMG! No-o-o-o!!!!
Dagnabbit! It's always the good ones that pass! I can't bear the passing of _ANY_ chicken but our Breda's are just too too precious! So heartbreaking -- very very sorry.


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## seminole wind

I'm sorry. It's pretty much always the ones you have an emotional attachment to.


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## chickenqueen

Sorry for your loss!It's so hard to lose a special pet.


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> I'm really sorry about Gomez's eye. Do you think it was an injury or maybe an infection he picked up? I get so worried when something is around a chicken's eye like my Violet when she got the dry pox and both eyes were glued shut from the awful pustules. She is doing so much better but the last crust on her beak still has not fallen off and it's been almost a month treating her indoors. She's anxious to go outdoors and join the others but not until her beak is totally "clean."
> 
> So, you need a heater? If it doesn't get below freezing you may not need a heater. I can't remember what state you live in. Here in SoCalif we leave the coop's pop door open all through winter for ventilation and in summer we trade out the solid coop floor to slide in the open kennel wire floor because of our hot climate. People on the East Coast worry about cold weather and blizzards while we on the West Coast worry about heatwaves and fires!
> 
> This was our "Phaedra" from RFR inspecting the wire floor for summer
> View attachment 28706
> 
> 
> Chicken pop-door entrance into the coop - a perch is situated just over the pop door but doesn't show in this photo.
> View attachment 28707
> 
> 
> The chicken pop door stays open 24/7 -- we have a sturdy dog kennel run surrounding so we don't worry about raccoons or other predators entering the coop. There's a concrete slab foundation below and a patio roof overhead the coop and pen but we still use a tarp to cover the front of this pen during our occasional rainstorms.
> View attachment 28708


Not sure how I missed this post  Anyway - love your set-up, very nice. Your birds are truly spoiled 
We live in WNY, so winter can be a tad difficult at times. I don't generally heat the outside coops since chickens prefer cooler weather to warm. The worst is carting jugs of water 3 or 4 x/day to make sure they have water.
When I'm rich, I will have electric run down to the coops and rabbits for light and water.
Poor Gomez - I didn't think I would miss him b/c he was a bit of a 'bad boy' with other roos - but I miss him so much now. 
It's thrown a spanner in the breeding program for sure. I will be contacting Dutch Connection in the hope they have a couple of juvenile roosters they would like to re-home for a fee....


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## Sylvester017

@boskelli1571 
I was devastated about Gomez -- he was so Handsome! 
RFR of CA offers Roo's for free but she doesn't have BBS anymore. I hope Dutch Conn can offer one or two roo's just for the cost of shipping -- or are you close enough to Dutch to pick them up in person? It might be worth it to get 2 roo's rather than just one -- never know what their survival rate will be. 
It's the reason I purchased THREE Dominique chicks instead of TWO -- just in case of chick mortality issue. All 3 Dom chicks survived but I can handle the one extra pullet ok now -- especially since my old Silkie is not laying eggs anymore and we only have the adult Cuckoo Breda remaining as a layer.


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> @boskelli1571
> I was devastated about Gomez -- he was so Handsome!
> RFR of CA offers Roo's for free but she doesn't have BBS anymore. I hope Dutch Conn can offer one or two roo's just for the cost of shipping -- or are you close enough to Dutch to pick them up in person? It might be worth it to get 2 roo's rather than just one -- never know what their survival rate will be.
> It's the reason I purchased THREE Dominique chicks instead of TWO -- just in case of chick mortality issue. All 3 Dom chicks survived but I can handle the one extra pullet ok now -- especially since my old Silkie is not laying eggs anymore and we only have the adult Cuckoo Breda remaining as a layer.


I just finished e-mailing Dutch and Verna, so I'm hoping something positive shakes out...
At this rate I might order 3-4 roos just in case!
If Dutch can come through and the weather co-operates (snow flurries this morning), I could drive. It's just over 5 hours so it will be a long haul, but worth it.
Your Doms are so pretty! I do love that breed. I only have 1 'old lady' - Dede left now, but she always greets me at the barn door, she makes me smile 
Sadly they are still on the Livestock Conservancy 'watch list'. I suppose they don't lay enough eggs for most people although I found them to be a consistent 3/week.


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## Maryellen

Hopefully dutch has some roosters for you. Too bad I rehomed my extras two weeks ago.


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## Maryellen

Boskelli I rehomed 3 mottled and a black split to a guy in cairo ny. He might be willing to part with one if dutch and verna.dont have any


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## Sylvester017

@boskelli1571 
Fingers crossed and prayers for your rooster search!
Yep, the whole reason I got into loving the Blue Breda so much was because they reminded me so much of the Dominique personality except that the Breda has the added benefit of looking unique plus so many color varieties.
3-eggs/wk is fine for us -- Dom's (unlike BR) have more tendency to go broody and I like a breed that goes broody to give their bodies a nutrient-replenishing period. A hen that is a prolific layer tends to have reproductive issues. Our Black Silkie was a prolific layer for a Silkie and we lost her to ovarian tumor. Our RFR of CA Blue Breda was a prolific layer (10+ consecutive months w/o stop) and we lost her too. Currently our Cuckoo Breda is taking a long break from laying and that's perfectly fine w/ us -- she also went broody a couple times this year which surprised us since I didn't think Breda went broody -- exactly 3 weeks each time and then back to normal.


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## Maryellen

Did you find a rooster boskelli?


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> Did you find a rooster boskelli?


Not yet - still waiting on Dutch to reply....


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## Maryellen

She went to the Ohio show this weekend , I'm not sure when she will be back


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## Maryellen

If she doesn't have any I can contact the guy in cairo I gave my 4 to, one of them is a black split. He might sell it


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> If she doesn't have any I can contact the guy in cairo I gave my 4 to, one of them is a black split. He might sell it


Thanks for thinking of me. I will be patient (!!) and wait for Dutch to reply. If it's a no I may take you up on the split...if the guy wants to part with him


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## Maryellen

He runs a sanctuary so a nice donation for the black might work


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## boskelli1571

So, Dutch Connection has sold all her blacks and mottled, has a few cuckoos left.
She sold them to the local rep of the APA, so I have e-mailed him, fingers crossed.
ME - it looks like Cairo might get a donation in the near future the way things are going.
My older hens will be getting 'past it' by the time I get a black roo for them


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## Maryellen

She sold some to me too. I got 2 black mottled and a cuckoo hen from her. .
I will message Paul and see if he wants to sell one of the 4 I gave him, 3 are mottled and one is a black split rooster.


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## Maryellen

Paul said he will let me know


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## boskelli1571

So, here's a photo of Pegs my disabled Breda rooster. He had his Thanksgiving bath today and was chilling with a friend watching the Macys' parade


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## Maryellen

Awwwww!!


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## boskelli1571

ME - hopefully good news! Dick Horstman has a rooster about a year old he will sell me!  I will still take another from your friend in Cairo if he decides to sell tho'...fingers crossed on all accounts


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## Sylvester017

I was talking w/ a BBS breeder on the BYC chicken website who has bred many different chicken breeds in the BBS varieties (too many chicken breeds to list here) -- said they never had mortality/health issues like we BBS Breda owners have. They also said that health issues in Blue dog breeding is a separate issue from Blue in chicken breeding -- not the same type of health issue as in Blue dog breeding. What do I know? Just passing on info from the horse's mouth if this helps anyone. The person I dialogued with is an avid BBS chicken breeder so hopefully a very knowledgeable source for BBS breeding info.

Meanwhile, my Silkie "Violet" has rejoined the Dominique chicks outside. The Cuckoo Breda "Char" maliciously attacked Violet when Char didn't recognize the Silkie so we now have the Cuckoo Breda isolated indoors for a couple weeks to give Violet a chance to integrate back to top hen like before. Violet chest bumps the Dom chicks but is not violent so I don't mind having a 2.5-lb Silkie being top hen over chicks twice her size. Hopefully Char will be at the bottom of the pecking order again when we put Char back outside because she is very large for a Breda and could hurt the little Silkie. Keeping my fingers crossed to get things back to "normal" pecking order again.

I love Blue Breda so much that it's funny for me to see our backyard w/ 3 Cuckoo Dominiques plus one Cuckoo Breda with one little Partridge Silkie. I WILL HAVE a Blue Breda pullet again some day -- isn't that a Scarlett O'Hara line from _Gone W/T Wind?! _

Violet is outside again and no more dry pox








Violet comes over for some attention too








So happy to see shared space between Violet and the Dom chicks


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> I was talking w/ a BBS breeder on the BYC chicken website who has bred many different chicken breeds in the BBS varieties (too many chicken breeds to list here) -- said they never had mortality/health issues like we BBS Breda owners have. They also said that health issues in Blue dog breeding is a separate issue from Blue in chicken breeding -- not the same type of health issue as in Blue dog breeding. What do I know? Just passing on info from the horse's mouth if this helps anyone. The person I dialogued with is an avid BBS chicken breeder so hopefully a very knowledgeable source for BBS breeding info.
> 
> Meanwhile, my Silkie "Violet" has rejoined the Dominique chicks outside. The Cuckoo Breda "Char" maliciously attacked Violet when Char didn't recognize the Silkie so we now have the Cuckoo Breda isolated indoors for a couple weeks to give Violet a chance to integrate back to top hen like before. Violet chest bumps the Dom chicks but is not violent so I don't mind having a 2.5-lb Silkie being top hen over chicks twice her size. Hopefully Char will be at the bottom of the pecking order again when we put Char back outside because she is very large for a Breda and could hurt the little Silkie. Keeping my fingers crossed to get things back to "normal" pecking order again.
> 
> I love Blue Breda so much that it's funny for me to see our backyard w/ 3 Cuckoo Dominiques plus one Cuckoo Breda with one little Partridge Silkie. I WILL HAVE a Blue Breda pullet again some day -- isn't that a Scarlett O'Hara line from _Gone W/T Wind?! _
> 
> Violet is outside again and no more dry pox
> View attachment 28827
> 
> Violet comes over for some attention too
> View attachment 28828
> 
> So happy to see shared space between Violet and the Dom chicks
> View attachment 28829
> 
> 
> View attachment 28830


Glad to see Violet back in the saddle  Poor Char, probably wondering what she did wrong...
Your Doms are getting big now - how long before they should lay do you think?
Are you suffering in the heatwave? I hear SoCal is very hot right now...


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> Glad to see Violet back in the saddle  Poor Char, probably wondering what she did wrong...
> Your Doms are getting big now - how long before they should lay do you think?
> Are you suffering in the heatwave? I hear SoCal is very hot right now...


We were glad to see Violet back to better than normal again -- she was molting when she got dry pox and lost energy and appetite. But she's spunkier now w/ much better appetite and back to top hen w/ the Dom chicks. Still nervous about putting Char (Breda) back into the flock yet. I might give her another week of isolation. Char has a mirror during her isolation so she'll be okay. Char is eating and drinking well so I'm not worried about her other than what her reaction will be once she's back in the flock.

The Doms are only 4-months-old so I'm not expecting eggs from them yet. They haven't even got their wattles yet and still have pale pink rosecombs -- when they get wattles and faces turn red I'll post pics of them again -- maybe Jan or Feb? Who knows? I never had a Dom reach POL before -- only BRs. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying the Doms' chick stage right now.

Thxgiving Day was way over 90o but Sunday afterwards we got rain sprinkles -- SoCalif is a conundrum of variables. Today we're in the highs of 70's. You have snow yet?


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## Sylvester017

Went on Waltz's Ark page recently and they added more Breda unrelated stock to their breeding program. Their black/white new Mottleds seem to have more evenly distributed black/white feathering rather than the more white that I've seen in recent Mottled flocks. Anyone have a comment? 

Wish I didn't have such a bad experience in ordering from Waltz's but they sure do put up a pretty and "wordy" website. Breda are delicate and other than Waltz's sending me a cockerel instead of the pullet I ordered I can't fault the fact that the Breda boy came w/ coccidia, worms, and sneezing which has been par for the course in most of my received Breda from other sources -- but I will fault Waltz's for sending us the Marek's Blue Ameraucana pullet (lost balance right out of the shipping box, soon she couldn't stand, developed dead nerve in leg) -- my poultry vet tried to save her but had to eventually put her down. 

Apparently, Waltz's uses homeopathic garlic and ACV water for preventative treatments rather than vaccinating for Marek's, Fowl Pox, Pneumonia, or etc. I understand Waltz's for wanting to breed natural resistance into their birds but right now the small gene pool for Breda need all the help they can get through proper medicines. Still, I wish Waltz's the very best success in their Breda program since they obviously love the breed very much. We need a variety of owners to work w/ this fabulous bird.


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## boskelli1571

No - no snow yet and apparently none in the forecast for quite a while...weird!
I contacted Greenfire Farm to see if they were planning to get more Bredas', but the person who wrote back didn't know what was being planned for 2018...everyone cross their fingers!
I did find a guy who will sell me a black Breda rooster who is 2016 hatch, so I am a tiny bit excited...if for any reason it doesn't happen I may resort to Waltzs' Ark.
I just took a peek at their site - I may order from them regardless - can never have too many Bredas' right?


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> No - no snow yet and apparently none in the forecast for quite a while...weird!
> I contacted Greenfire Farm to see if they were planning to get more Bredas', but the person who wrote back didn't know what was being planned for 2018...everyone cross their fingers!
> I did find a guy who will sell me a black Breda rooster who is 2016 hatch, so I am a tiny bit excited...if for any reason it doesn't happen I may resort to Waltzs' Ark.
> I just took a peek at their site - I may order from them regardless - can never have too many Bredas' right?


ec

Waltz's loves their birds and are a bit pricey - it's a husband/wife team only that also breed goats so they have their hands full with different chicken breeds plus goats. My caution is that if you get birds from Waltz's to be absolutely certain to quarantine their birds far from contact with your existing flock and change clothes/shoes before going from Waltz's birds to your flock during quarantine. I DID get a Marek's-sick Ameraucana shipped to me from Waltz's and Waltz's doesn't vaccinate their birds. Waltz's are sensitive about having the Marek's issue brought up, or the worms, or the coccidia, or the sneezing issue but I have the vet papers to prove my first day visit to the vet showing these issues were shipped to me and not developed after receiving the Waltz's birds. Waltz's is a different source for Breda but do proceed with sensible caution. My order for 2 pullets through Waltz's took 7 months before it was filled and then it was shipped with a cockerel instead of a pullet plus the 2nd chicken was sick with Marek's. I was yelled at (if you can possibly imagine it in text) that I was at fault -- how could I be at fault ordering 2 pullets at 4 months old when one was sent to me as a cockerel and the other bird died of Marek's shortly after? I'm still glad Waltz's is breeding the Breda but I also am stressing sensible caution when bringing in new birds onto the property.


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## Maryellen

Waltz's ark got their breda from Dutch Connection. I recognized her birds on waltz's website and she confirmed it. Waltz's got some from her a while ago. I don't know if they got any more from Dutch Connection but they might have. Dutch Connection mottled have more even color


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> Waltz's ark got their breda from Dutch Connection. I recognized her birds on waltz's website and she confirmed it. Waltz's got some from her a while ago. I don't know if they got any more from Dutch Connection but they might have. Dutch Connection mottled have more even color


Good to know. I wish so much that I was zoned to breed. No chance in my city zone though. There are just too few sellers of Breda in the USA. A couple people breed them because they like them but won't sell them. So far it's been RFR, Dutch Conn, and chickendanz as the only Breda sellers with boskelli1571 and you developing some breeding groups. The Cuckoo seems to be a very statuesque and hardy Breda while the gorgeous BBS really need some hardiness infused. Like my Dominiques, not every Breda bird hatched will look ideal, but I love all my Doms anyway because they have an overall generally good temperament.

These are the two birds shipped to me from Waltz's -- the Blue Breda cockerel was supposed to be a pullet and the Blue Ameraucana was a pullet but sick w/ Marek's hardly able to stand without falling over. We found the cockerel a home w/ a farm friend who rescues sick and unwanted roos and didn't mind that he was exposed to Marek's which he luckily never contracted TG! Our farm friend takes lovely care of her rescues and the Breda cockerel became their indoor/outdoor pet chicken!








The Waltz's birds are beautiful and would have a better chance of survival if they had been vaccinated. The vet finally had to put this Ameraucana pullet down w/ Marek's -- she never was able to stand up straight right out of the Waltz's shipping box.


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## Maryellen

There are more breeders then you think. One in Ontario Canada who breeds blue and splash, and a bunch more. There is a breda group on facebook, around 70 members that breed and sell


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## boskelli1571

I


Maryellen said:


> There are more breeders then you think. One in Ontario Canada who breeds blue and splash, and a bunch more. There is a breda group on facebook, around 70 members that breed and sell


My acceptance is still pending.....how long does it take usually?
With that in mind, I wish there was a website or something that all Breda folks could sell/buy on that was devoted to Bredas, as there are a lot of people who don't use social media. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has searched the internet many times to try and find US breeders. I have nothing against Canada breeders, but the Gov't makes it incredibly hard and expensive to buy/sell across the border...


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## Nm156

Too small of a gene pool.


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## Sylvester017

Nm156 said:


> Too small of a gene pool.


Yep, seems like all the Breda around are coming from the same original stock no matter what owner or state they're ordered from. No gene pool diversity. USA has gotten very strict about border crossings since AI virus hit the States.


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> There are more breeders then you think. One in Ontario Canada who breeds blue and splash, and a bunch more. There is a breda group on facebook, around 70 members that breed and sell


Can you give the name of the Facebook group again? I'll have my DH look it up since he follows FB and I'm not a social media person.


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## Maryellen

Search fb for Breda fowl .


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> Search fb for Breda fowl .


How long will I be pending, any idea???


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> Can you give the name of the Facebook group again? I'll have my DH look it up since he follows FB and I'm not a social media person.


Breda Fowl Fanciers.


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## Maryellen

Check your private messages. I just posted there to please add you both


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> Check your private messages. I just posted there to please add you both


I feel like a total DUNCE -- I got added to *where?*


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## Sylvester017

Cuckoo Breda "Char" added back to the flock after a couple weeks' isolation. She's back to being respectful again to the Silkie top hen. No squabbles. The Dominique chicks are respectful also towards the little Silkie "Violet." Violet is my oldest living hen and deserves top rank! At only 2.4-lbs she can't do much damage in the pecking order -- the bigger hens let her have first choice at the treats or else she chest bumps or air pecks at their head. All the other hens are twice as big as Violet and could do a lot of damage pecking at a Silkie's solft skull so I like it better when the Silkie is the top respected hen.


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> I feel like a total DUNCE -- I got added to *where?*


Facebook - Breda Fowl Fanciers


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## Maryellen

I didn't add you both I just asked the mods to approve your requests


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> Facebook - Breda Fowl Fanciers


TY -- I think I'll direct my DH to their FB site. He is in a general chicken FB page but I'll have him look up the Breda Fowl Fanciers. TY again!


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## seminole wind

You're looking for a group but 3 of you have them and I never heard of them til ME got them. 
The gene pool is way too small, so I think eventually all of you will end up with diseased birds or poor resistance. Don't hurt me for saying that! 
If anyone is long term serious about the breed, you should breed an ancestor breed into a flock like a Langsham. Then breed it out again. Especially with those blue bredas who have poor resistance. 
Even horse breeds have to have a % of true breed blood to qualify for a breed. Like a Hanoverian with 1/4 Thoroughbred blood is still a Hanovarian. And a Dutch warm blood horse is still a DWB even tho they have bred in American Saddlebred to improve the quality of gait and it's acceptable. (American saddlebred lift their legs higher). It's all about improving the breed in some way and be able to consistently produce it.


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> You're looking for a group but 3 of you have them and I never heard of them til ME got them.
> The gene pool is way too small, so I think eventually all of you will end up with diseased birds or poor resistance. Don't hurt me for saying that!
> If anyone is long term serious about the breed, you should breed an ancestor breed into a flock like a Langsham. Then breed it out again. Especially with those blue bredas who have poor resistance.
> Even horse breeds have to have a % of true breed blood to qualify for a breed. Like a Hanoverian with 1/4 Thoroughbred blood is still a Hanovarian. And a Dutch warm blood horse is still a DWB even tho they have bred in American Saddlebred to improve the quality of gait and it's acceptable. (American saddlebred lift their legs higher). It's all about improving the breed in some way and be able to consistently produce it.


Won't hurt you... You are right - the US pool is very shallow. I will try a couple of other breeders to see if there is any improvement, but I would love to get some eggs from Canada. 
I will have to strike up a friendship with one of the Canuck folks and then see how impossibly difficult the US Gov't makes it to import them....
The breeding solution you suggested is sound, but I am not that confident in my genetic and breeding knowledge to say I know what I'm doing.
One of the problem with the Bredas is it's uniqueness - no comb, vulture hocks these are all recessive traits.
For whatever reason, I have a hard time with genetics. I have to read and re-read until a light goes on. I would love to meet someone who has the innate ability to explain it in a simple fashion...


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## seminole wind

There's not a whole lot of understanding involved. If there are recessive traits, or unwanted traits, breeders do this. That's how they introduce new colors . Or improve their breeds. It's just not possible to improve some aspects of a breed using a small gene pool available. That's how new breeds come about. And it doesn't need to be a big project. But it is a commitment.


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## Sylvester017

seminolewind said:


> There's not a whole lot of understanding involved. If there are recessive traits, or unwanted traits, breeders do this. That's how they introduce new colors . Or improve their breeds. It's just not possible to improve some aspects of a breed using a small gene pool available. That's how new breeds come about. And it doesn't need to be a big project. But it is a commitment.


Of all suggestions for improving the Breda gene pool I love your suggestion about using Langshan. They come in Black and some people have created Blue Langshan (Sonia Schaffer on youtube has a backyard blurb about two Black Langshan she got from McMurray Hatchery and says her two are very docile nice birds). True that Langshan don't have vulture hocks but Lang's DO have feathered legs and a fairly docile agreeable disposition which is what we would want to see in Breda to continue. Using Langshan and breeding back to Breda for a few generations will eventually bring back the no-comb and vulture hocks and heavily feathered feet. It's as you say -- it only takes a certain % of offspring (I believe 50% in chicken breeds) to successfully qualify as the original breed. You just couldn't sell the first two or three generations as anything but mixed breeds until the following generations start to breed true Breda type again.

One thing I don't like about my Cuckoo Breda -- it must've had European Cuckoo Marans in her genetic cross-breeding because she doesn't have the outgoing people-friendly disposition of the BBS Breda (European standards suggest feathered feet for Cuckoo Marans where USA Cuckoo Marans must be smooth-legged). I mean, our Cuckoo Breda is skittish, wary of humans, but to her credit at least she's been fairly docile -- just not very personable like all my Blue's have been. Keeping that gentle nature of BBS Breda is so important and it can be ruined using a skittish aloof breed like Marans -- a Langshan would be a better temperament choice to cross-breed. JMHO. Wish I was zoned or had the space for breeding -- I love the Breda so much and think it would be so much fun watching generation after generation evolve after cross-breeding to improve hardiness!


----------



## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> Of all suggestions for improving the Breda gene pool I love your suggestion about using Langshan. They come in Black and some people have created Blue Langshan (Sonia Schaffer on youtube has a backyard blurb about two Black Langshan she got from McMurray Hatchery and says her two are very docile nice birds). True that Langshan don't have vulture hocks but Lang's DO have feathered legs and a fairly docile agreeable disposition which is what we would want to see in Breda to continue. Using Langshan and breeding back to Breda for a few generations will eventually bring back the no-comb and vulture hocks and heavily feathered feet. It's as you say -- it only takes a certain % of offspring (I believe 50% in chicken breeds) to successfully qualify as the original breed. You just couldn't sell the first two or three generations as anything but mixed breeds until the following generations start to breed true Breda type again.
> 
> One thing I don't like about my Cuckoo Breda -- it must've had European Cuckoo Marans in her genetic cross-breeding because she doesn't have the outgoing people-friendly disposition of the BBS Breda (European standards suggest feathered feet for Cuckoo Marans where USA Cuckoo Marans must be smooth-legged). I mean, our Cuckoo Breda is skittish, wary of humans, but to her credit at least she's been fairly docile -- just not very personable like all my Blue's have been. Keeping that gentle nature of BBS Breda is so important and it can be ruined using a skittish aloof breed like Marans -- a Langshan would be a better temperament choice to cross-breed. JMHO. Wish I was zoned or had the space for breeding -- I love the Breda so much and think it would be so much fun watching generation after generation evolve after cross-breeding to improve hardiness!


It's interesting that you say that about your cuckoo. I have found the mottled the same way. They are quite wary of humans, but docile and talkative at times! They are getting better, but if I pick one up they all scream bloody murder....


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> There's not a whole lot of understanding involved. If there are recessive traits, or unwanted traits, breeders do this. That's how they introduce new colors . Or improve their breeds. It's just not possible to improve some aspects of a breed using a small gene pool available. That's how new breeds come about. And it doesn't need to be a big project. But it is a commitment.


I guess I'm not following you on this... you say breeders' do this - what?
I'm willing to 'have a go', but would like some guidance on what the h*** I'm supposed to be doing 
It certainly can't hurt anything at this point...


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## Maryellen

I think sultans have vulture hocks, so they could be added as well.. brahmas have heavy feathered feet as well and are taller too


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## Maryellen

When I mixed my Breda with my silkies I got a beautiful feathered hen that has a tiny comb and nice feathered legs and feet


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## seminole wind

boskelli1571 said:


> I guess I'm not following you on this... you say breeders' do this - what?
> I'm willing to 'have a go', but would like some guidance on what the h*** I'm supposed to be doing
> It certainly can't hurt anything at this point...


Let's say a breed only comes in 2 colors. Black and white. And a breeder would like to create a new color, like speckled. They have to get the color from somewhere, hopefully by using a speckled bird with similar characteristics. Unfortunately, this involves a lot of culling.


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> It's interesting that you say that about your cuckoo. I have found the mottled the same way. They are quite wary of humans, but docile and talkative at times! They are getting better, but if I pick one up they all scream bloody murder....


Sadly, I haven't experienced Mottled yet. I'll be happy to get just one LIVE Blue Breda first before I try other varieties. The only reason I have a Cuckoo now is that I ordered her before we lost the adult Blue hen. I was hoping to have two different Breda colors but had no luck getting Blue to survive -- my last two Blue chicks died this year. I'm shocked our Cuckoo is still alive. She has now outlived any of the Blue hens we've had.

We have a practice of keeping our newly shipped juvenile birds indoors to have them handled by us and to get them to understand their name. If we get one juvenile alone we provide a long door mirror lying on its long side so the single chick thinks her reflection is another companion bird whenever we aren't handling her. By the time the juvenile is old enough to integrate outdoors at around 4 to 5 months, she is well spoiled and tame. Unfortunately with our Cuckoo Breda she couldn't be shipped to us during our brutal heatwave summer and she was older before we received her so couldn't handle her as a chick. She was skittish right out of the box and never tamed to human hands. She will accept tasty treats out of my fingers but that's as close as she dares approach. DH has to corner her or take her off the roost when she's drowsy if we need to give her health maintenance. All our four Blue Breda (even the accidental cockerel) were all gentle respondents to human handling and picking up -- and our favorite Blue liked to fly on my shoulder or sit next to me on my computer bench for evening "chats". Another Blue girl would walk up to me evenings to be picked up and share my desk chair while being petted. The Blue's have been so outgoing, curious, and people-friendly. We just got our Cuckoo too old to get her accustomed to a lot of handling -- with all the time we spent handling her in-house before putting her outdoors, she never lost her skittishness.



Maryellen said:


> I think sultans have vulture hocks, so they could be added as well.. brahmas have heavy feathered feet as well and are taller too


Brahmas are very heavily under-downed birds like Orps, Lorps, Bielies, Favies, EEs, etc, and might be a battle in successive generations to breed out the heavy underdown. Breda have sleek feathering and hardly any underdown -- I've never had a problem with dirty vent feathers w/ Breda like I have with my fluffy Silkies and Ameraucana. Of course, a lot of culling of successive back-to-Breda breeding could possibly bring back the sleek Breda feathers again. I never cross-bred chickens but I have followed other breeder notes on how difficult the feathering was to deal with.

Sultan DO have vulture hocks but like Silkies those fluffy crests would keep popping up, eh? But one excellent thing about Silkies and Sultans is their great temperaments.



Maryellen said:


> When I mixed my Breda with my silkies I got a beautiful feathered hen that has a tiny comb and nice feathered legs and feet


This gal is a real beauty. A couple more generations breeding her offspring back to Breda and maybe the heavy vulture hocks will come back and the comb will disappear! The temperament should be great too! How much does this girl weigh now? I think you have a great experiment going on to get some hardiness into the Breda -- in a few more generational breedings using the best offspring of a Silkie cross-breeding to breed back to a "pure" Breda will get the Breda body type back again. Is this girl old enough to breed back to a pure Breda to see how close her offspring will start looking like Breda? The only problem I could possibly foresee w/Silkie-Breda crosses is that egg production in Silkies is very low and eggs small. Langshans are not considered high production birds but certainly would be better egg numbers and larger eggs than Silkies or Sultans. Just some thoughts thrown out there. Or maybe you'll develop the first bantam Breda! Bantams are a nice hobby and good to use as broodies but their egg production is so low. I was always so frustrated when my Silkies went broody at the drop of a dime -- I think the average Silkie pullet production is only 50-60 eggs their first year -- production goes down 20% every year after that -- not too promising.

The hard part about breeding for the best type is that an owner has to wait until the adults are a good year old or older to see how the birds follow type and feathering before knowing which ones to use as parents for the next generational breeding. Breeders usually wait until after a bird's first molt to see how they qualify as breeding stock for the next generation. Quite a waiting game and of course the F-1, F-2, F-3, etc generations can't be sold as purebred until two offspring can produce chicks that look like the original Breda type. The cross-breeds have to be culled, used for eggs or meat, but can't be sold as pure Breda yet. There are many people who don't mind cross-breed chickens and some like them better than so-called "pure" breeds that meet APA standards, but for Breda perfection purposes those that don't look like Breda have to be culled from the project. Ooooo! Wish I was zoned for breeding!


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## Maryellen

This chick and her sister were given to friends of mine when this pic was taken so I don't have the mixes anymore


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## Maryellen

I think bantam bredas exist already


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> Sadly, I haven't experienced Mottled yet. I'll be happy to get just one LIVE Blue Breda first before I try other varieties. The only reason I have a Cuckoo now is that I ordered her before we lost the adult Blue hen. I was hoping to have two different Breda colors but had no luck getting Blue to survive -- my last two Blue chicks died this year. I'm shocked our Cuckoo is still alive. She has now outlived any of the Blue hens we've had.
> 
> We have a practice of keeping our newly shipped juvenile birds indoors to have them handled by us and to get them to understand their name. If we get one juvenile alone we provide a long door mirror lying on its long side so the single chick thinks her reflection is another companion bird whenever we aren't handling her. By the time the juvenile is old enough to integrate outdoors at around 4 to 5 months, she is well spoiled and tame. Unfortunately with our Cuckoo Breda she couldn't be shipped to us during our brutal heatwave summer and she was older before we received her so couldn't handle her as a chick. She was skittish right out of the box and never tamed to human hands. She will accept tasty treats out of my fingers but that's as close as she dares approach. DH has to corner her or take her off the roost when she's drowsy if we need to give her health maintenance. All our four Blue Breda (even the accidental cockerel) were all gentle respondents to human handling and picking up -- and our favorite Blue liked to fly on my shoulder or sit next to me on my computer bench for evening "chats". Another Blue girl would walk up to me evenings to be picked up and share my desk chair while being petted. The Blue's have been so outgoing, curious, and people-friendly. We just got our Cuckoo too old to get her accustomed to a lot of handling -- with all the time we spent handling her in-house before putting her outdoors, she never lost her skittishness.
> 
> Brahmas are very heavily under-downed birds like Orps, Lorps, Bielies, Favies, EEs, etc, and might be a battle in successive generations to breed out the heavy underdown. Breda have sleek feathering and hardly any underdown -- I've never had a problem with dirty vent feathers w/ Breda like I have with my fluffy Silkies and Ameraucana. Of course, a lot of culling of successive back-to-Breda breeding could possibly bring back the sleek Breda feathers again. I never cross-bred chickens but I have followed other breeder notes on how difficult the feathering was to deal with.
> 
> Sultan DO have vulture hocks but like Silkies those fluffy crests would keep popping up, eh? But one excellent thing about Silkies and Sultans is their great temperaments.
> 
> This gal is a real beauty. A couple more generations breeding her offspring back to Breda and maybe the heavy vulture hocks will come back and the comb will disappear! The temperament should be great too! How much does this girl weigh now? I think you have a great experiment going on to get some hardiness into the Breda -- in a few more generational breedings using the best offspring of a Silkie cross-breeding to breed back to a "pure" Breda will get the Breda body type back again. Is this girl old enough to breed back to a pure Breda to see how close her offspring will start looking like Breda? The only problem I could possibly foresee w/Silkie-Breda crosses is that egg production in Silkies is very low and eggs small. Langshans are not considered high production birds but certainly would be better egg numbers and larger eggs than Silkies or Sultans. Just some thoughts thrown out there. Or maybe you'll develop the first bantam Breda! Bantams are a nice hobby and good to use as broodies but their egg production is so low. I was always so frustrated when my Silkies went broody at the drop of a dime -- I think the average Silkie pullet production is only 50-60 eggs their first year -- production goes down 20% every year after that -- not too promising.
> 
> The hard part about breeding for the best type is that an owner has to wait until the adults are a good year old or older to see how the birds follow type and feathering before knowing which ones to use as parents for the next generational breeding. Breeders usually wait until after a bird's first molt to see how they qualify as breeding stock for the next generation. Quite a waiting game and of course the F-1, F-2, F-3, etc generations can't be sold as purebred until two offspring can produce chicks that look like the original Breda type. The cross-breeds have to be culled, used for eggs or meat, but can't be sold as pure Breda yet. There are many people who don't mind cross-breed chickens and some like them better than so-called "pure" breeds that meet APA standards, but for Breda perfection purposes those that don't look like Breda have to be culled from the project. Ooooo! Wish I was zoned for breeding!


Yup - all food for thought. A friend who is a genetic fiend also suggested Brahma. I am currently reading Hutts' book on genetics and will do some more research before I start monkeying with things....


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## seminole wind

I think it would be better to stick to one of the ancestral birds that were part of the makeup of the breed.


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> I think it would be better to stick to one of the ancestral birds that were part of the makeup of the breed.


You're absolutely right...trouble is no-one seems to know which birds that was. The Sultan appeared long after the Breda was known, so I'm looking towards La Fleche, Houdan etc. I feel like Sherlock Holmes!


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> This chick and her sister were given to friends of mine when this pic was taken so I don't have the mixes anymore


Oh, so sad you don't have the pullets any more. At least they have a good home and you can always visit! That's what we did with our re-homed birds so we could visit them! Our mid-size USA Silkies are such fantastic all-round chickens (other than their low production) I can't say a bad thing about their usefulness as a breed or a pet.



Maryellen said:


> I think bantam bredas exist already


I believe you mentioned the Bantam Breda before -- I don't remember -- here in the States?



boskelli1571 said:


> Yup - all food for thought. A friend who is a genetic fiend also suggested Brahma. I am currently reading Hutts' book on genetics and will do some more research before I start monkeying with things....


That is so cool! I never bred chickens so never really got into genetics other than talking with breeders casually. I hear Brahma have a very good disposition and certainly would add girth to the Breda body -- the only downside IMO is the less-than-stellar egg production or egg size and very heavy Brahma under-down. Brahmas seem to be bred more for meat than egg production. Breda (at least my Blue) had a stellar production rate. Of course, getting Breda hardy to survive would be priority #1 w/ all other body, type, qualities, to perfect afterwards. I personally like the smaller chickens like Breda, Dominique, Leghorn, etc, because they are usually good on the feed bill ratio and the eggs all come in a decent MED-LG, occasionally XL size in these lighterweight breeds. Some breeders I spoke w/ were trying to make these breeds larger but a big appetite chicken doesn't necessarily produce more or larger eggs so why make the breed larger except maybe as meat for the table?

Another problem w/ cross selection is egg color -- Breda are supposedly white egg layers, yet whoever bred the Cuckoo Breda originally, must've used a dark-egg Cuckoo Marans for crossing and now my Cuckoo lays pink rather than white eggs. A couple breeders I spoke with about Buff Leghorns is that it took several generations of selective breeding to get the white eggs back again -- my Buff Leghorns were laying pink eggs because of their brown egg Buff Orp genetic history. I thought having a gentler Orp background in the Buff Leghorn would make a better temperament -- but my Buff Leg was meaner than my White Leg so I gave up having "pure" Legs of any variety anymore. One useful thing about White Leg production layers is that they are used extensively in the poultry industry to engineer calmer chicken hybrids for the commercial egg industry. If a breeder wants a better white egg layer they seem to use the prolific White Leg in their cross-breeding programs. I wonder how many generations it would take to get rid of the assertive Leghorn temperament and big floppy comb if cross-bred w/ BBS Breda? White egg production would certainly improve in the Breda -- I mean, White Legs are crossed w/ so many OTHER breeds to increase production so why not Breda too? Hmmmm? A good possibility maybe? 



seminolewind said:


> I think it would be better to stick to one of the ancestral birds that were part of the makeup of the breed.


All history written about Breda don't give much help in that direction. It will take current dedicated breeders to come up w/ a good breeding program of their own that might take more than just one breed to cross w/ Breda to get hardiness, body type, and egg production back to Breda standard. There was a great interest in Breda when first introduced in the USA and they would've been a very popular unique chicken had breeders not encountered the problems of low gene pools and high mortality rates.



boskelli1571 said:


> You're absolutely right...trouble is no-one seems to know which birds that was. The Sultan appeared long after the Breda was known, so I'm looking towards La Fleche, Houdan etc. I feel like Sherlock Holmes!


I get nervous when I hear "La Fleche" since they are a very aggressive breed and that's not what Breda are about. It'll take aggressive culling of La Fleche cross-breed offspring out of a Breda program or a skittish bird like our Cuckoo Breda might be an outcome. Still, those La Fleche combs were used a lot in cross-breeding or improving other breeds. What's frustrating about any chicken breeding is that two stellar parents don't necessarily breed quality offspring -- there's always those hidden genetics that can flare several generations later which is why I now understand why breeders cull aggressive birds even though they might have other pleasant breeding qualities. Or sometimes a Dominique chick might grow a straight-comb rather than a rose-comb because in the Dom genetic history some straight combs were common -- but Dom breeders today cull those strains that display any straight-comb offspring. It all sounds like fun to me. I might invest in a genetics reference just for the interest!


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## Sylvester017

Well, there's a cursed pop-up ad that won't let me log out -- will try to log off again later!!!! Every time one of my programs or browsers updates it seems to mess with my settings!


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> Oh, so sad you don't have the pullets any more. At least they have a good home and you can always visit! That's what we did with our re-homed birds so we could visit them! Our mid-size USA Silkies are such fantastic all-round chickens (other than their low production) I can't say a bad thing about their usefulness as a breed or a pet.
> 
> I believe you mentioned the Bantam Breda before -- I don't remember -- here in the States?
> 
> That is so cool! I never bred chickens so never really got into genetics other than talking with breeders casually. I hear Brahma have a very good disposition and certainly would add girth to the Breda body -- the only downside IMO is the less-than-stellar egg production or egg size and very heavy Brahma under-down. Brahmas seem to be bred more for meat than egg production. Breda (at least my Blue) had a stellar production rate. Of course, getting Breda hardy to survive would be priority #1 w/ all other body, type, qualities, to perfect afterwards. I personally like the smaller chickens like Breda, Dominique, Leghorn, etc, because they are usually good on the feed bill ratio and the eggs all come in a decent MED-LG, occasionally XL size in these lighterweight breeds. Some breeders I spoke w/ were trying to make these breeds larger but a big appetite chicken doesn't necessarily produce more or larger eggs so why make the breed larger except maybe as meat for the table?
> 
> Another problem w/ cross selection is egg color -- Breda are supposedly white egg layers, yet whoever bred the Cuckoo Breda originally, must've used a dark-egg Cuckoo Marans for crossing and now my Cuckoo lays pink rather than white eggs. A couple breeders I spoke with about Buff Leghorns is that it took several generations of selective breeding to get the white eggs back again -- my Buff Leghorns were laying pink eggs because of their brown egg Buff Orp genetic history. I thought having a gentler Orp background in the Buff Leghorn would make a better temperament -- but my Buff Leg was meaner than my White Leg so I gave up having "pure" Legs of any variety anymore. One useful thing about White Leg production layers is that they are used extensively in the poultry industry to engineer calmer chicken hybrids for the commercial egg industry. If a breeder wants a better white egg layer they seem to use the prolific White Leg in their cross-breeding programs. I wonder how many generations it would take to get rid of the assertive Leghorn temperament and big floppy comb if cross-bred w/ BBS Breda? White egg production would certainly improve in the Breda -- I mean, White Legs are crossed w/ so many OTHER breeds to increase production so why not Breda too? Hmmmm? A good possibility maybe?
> 
> All history written about Breda don't give much help in that direction. It will take current dedicated breeders to come up w/ a good breeding program of their own that might take more than just one breed to cross w/ Breda to get hardiness, body type, and egg production back to Breda standard. There was a great interest in Breda when first introduced in the USA and they would've been a very popular unique chicken had breeders not encountered the problems of low gene pools and high mortality rates.
> 
> I get nervous when I hear "La Fleche" since they are a very aggressive breed and that's not what Breda are about. It'll take aggressive culling of La Fleche cross-breed offspring out of a Breda program or a skittish bird like our Cuckoo Breda might be an outcome. Still, those La Fleche combs were used a lot in cross-breeding or improving other breeds. What's frustrating about any chicken breeding is that two stellar parents don't necessarily breed quality offspring -- there's always those hidden genetics that can flare several generations later which is why I now understand why breeders cull aggressive birds even though they might have other pleasant breeding qualities. Or sometimes a Dominique chick might grow a straight-comb rather than a rose-comb because in the Dom genetic history some straight combs were common -- but Dom breeders today cull those strains that display any straight-comb offspring. It all sounds like fun to me. I might invest in a genetics reference just for the interest!


I'm currently reading F.B.Hutt again - it is so dry to read....but, what I have read so far has been helpful.
I'm trying to narrow down the field to breeds that would have been around pre-1700 +/-. So far, poss. contenders remain Houdan, La Fleche, Crevecoeur & ?? Langshan with La Fleche & Crevecoeur leading the pack b/c of V comb...
if anyone has any thoughts please pitch in..


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> I'm currently reading F.B.Hutt again - it is so dry to read....but, what I have read so far has been helpful.
> I'm trying to narrow down the field to breeds that would have been around pre-1700 +/-. So far, poss. contenders remain Houdan, La Fleche, Crevecoeur & ?? Langshan with La Fleche & Crevecoeur leading the pack b/c of V comb...
> if anyone has any thoughts please pitch in..


La Fleche have the history of being used for their V-comb but their temperament sure isn't desirable but some bad seems to come with some good. Crevecoeurs are a docile but not especially people-friendly breed -- also, they're not a hardy breed because in talking w/ Crevie breeders the gene pool is too shallow -- but what do I know? Just passing on info I gather along the way. I really don't know that much about Langshan except that I wouldn't mind having one. Recently, I saw a hatchery advertising Blue as well as Black Langs -- I know they come in White too. There's a good possibility of having to use 2 or 3 breeds to cross w/ Breda to get all desired elements of the Breda standard. To get beautiful Buff Leghorns Mr. Danne Honour used Buff Orps, Buff Rocks, and long-tailed Phoenix to cross-breed with Leghorns to get his desired results (some of his Buff Leghorns can be seen on the Leghorn chickens page on feathersite.com). He even bred rose-combed Buff Legs. Mr. Honour wrote articles on his passion for Buff breeding in chickens and on Leghorns especially. I've dialogued w/ Mr. Honor on the BYC site but only so far as Buff Leghorns was the subject of which I once had a couple Buff Legs from his line.

Genetics _IS_ a dry read which is why I never had an inclination for researching it. All my knowledge about genetics has been talking w/ breeders. Still, I want to expand learning and maybe start w/online articles first. Have you found any knowledgeable breeders on BYC re breeding in general -- not necessarily just Breda breeding? I talked w/ GaryDean26 before about their BBS Breda and they liked BBS breeding w/ Andalusian chickens too at one point before they moved their operation to another state. Oh, Andalusian chickens have BBS genetics and lay white eggs -- another Breda cross-breed possibility? Hmmm? I keep giving myself ideas LOL!

I think GaryDean26 is into breeding Arkansas Blue (not blue chickens but blue eggs) now. But there have been several BYC owner/breeders I dialogued with in the past about genetics and now wish I had bookmarked them -- but I wasn't interested in genetics enough at the time.

There's always the possibility of starting a genetic question thread on the BYC where breeders may pick up on the subject and be more than willing to answer specific questions like what body trait is hardest to breed in/out, should body type be considered before feathering or color, how to breed out big combs, get vulture hocks longer, get the right egg color, etc, etc.


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> La Fleche have the history of being used for their V-comb but their temperament sure isn't desirable but some bad seems to come with some good. Crevecoeurs are a docile but not especially people-friendly breed -- also, they're not a hardy breed because in talking w/ Crevie breeders the gene pool is too shallow -- but what do I know? Just passing on info I gather along the way. I really don't know that much about Langshan except that I wouldn't mind having one. Recently, I saw a hatchery advertising Blue as well as Black Langs -- I know they come in White too. There's a good possibility of having to use 2 or 3 breeds to cross w/ Breda to get all desired elements of the Breda standard. To get beautiful Buff Leghorns Mr. Danne Honour used Buff Orps, Buff Rocks, and long-tailed Phoenix to cross-breed with Leghorns to get his desired results (some of his Buff Leghorns can be seen on the Leghorn chickens page on feathersite.com). He even bred rose-combed Buff Legs. Mr. Honour wrote articles on his passion for Buff breeding in chickens and on Leghorns especially. I've dialogued w/ Mr. Honor on the BYC site but only so far as Buff Leghorns was the subject of which I once had a couple Buff Legs from his line.
> 
> Genetics _IS_ a dry read which is why I never had an inclination for researching it. All my knowledge about genetics has been talking w/ breeders. Still, I want to expand learning and maybe start w/online articles first. Have you found any knowledgeable breeders on BYC re breeding in general -- not necessarily just Breda breeding? I talked w/ GaryDean26 before about their BBS Breda and they liked BBS breeding w/ Andalusian chickens too at one point before they moved their operation to another state. Oh, Andalusian chickens have BBS genetics and lay white eggs -- another Breda cross-breed possibility? Hmmm? I keep giving myself ideas LOL!
> 
> I think GaryDean26 is into breeding Arkansas Blue (not blue chickens but blue eggs) now. But there have been several BYC owner/breeders I dialogued with in the past about genetics and now wish I had bookmarked them -- but I wasn't interested in genetics enough at the time.
> 
> There's always the possibility of starting a genetic question thread on the BYC where breeders may pick up on the subject and be more than willing to answer specific questions like what body trait is hardest to breed in/out, should body type be considered before feathering or color, how to breed out big combs, get vulture hocks longer, get the right egg color, etc, etc.


All great ideas Syl! any thoughts/observations are welcome..
There is a genetic thread on BYC but everyone talks in a different language, I find it hard to follow!
As for breeders - other than the Breda folks, I have a friend from BYC who loves genetics! and she is quite helpful when I throw ideas at her. I may even get her interested enough to start a project with me....fingers crossed. Something that might be helpful for you is : scratchcradle.wordpress.com - she has a genetics 'mini-series' which is quite down to earth, it helped me with the basics.
I have been reading about La Fleche and Crevecoeurs among other breeds. I'm running through all the French breeds of antiquity to see what I come up with, then it will be Belgium, Holland, Germany etc.
The Andalusian blue is certainly a possibility to enhance genetics. I feel like I have a lot of homework ahead of me...glad I'm retired


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## Sylvester017

@boskelli1571 TY for info! I agree -- breeding/genetics is an artful science plus a whole LOT of LUCK and baffles me too! Retirement is the only way to get hobbies underway. I never even considered chickens until after I knew we would be home most of the time to care for and enjoy them! We've been lucky enough to be retired in a suburb that allows up to 5 hens -- other cities adjoining us don't have that privileged zoning. We have to travel two and three cities away to get to our two nearest feed stores.


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## Maryellen

Sue I just added you to poultry colors and genetics on fb. There are very knowledgeable genetic people there, especially dian Gardner. 
Sylvester have your husband search for it on fb and join.


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> Sue I just added you to poultry colors and genetics on fb. There are very knowledgeable genetic people there, especially dian Gardner.
> Sylvester have your husband search for it on fb and join.


Thanks - will be checking in on it soon


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## seminole wind

Creves are a no from me. What characteristics would you want from them? They are not hardy. No feathers on legs, a poof. I would go with a Langsham because it's plainer than a Breda. Houdan's have a poof, but has the nice loose feathers. I had one a few years ago which led me to buy 2 more. They are very docile and have never fought me from being held. I love the loose and mottled feathers


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> Creves are a no from me. What characteristics would you want from them? They are not hardy. No feathers on legs, a poof. I would go with a Langsham because it's plainer than a Breda. Houdan's have a poof, but has the nice loose feathers. I had one a few years ago which led me to buy 2 more. They are very docile and have never fought me from being held. I love the loose and mottled feathers


Good input - thanks


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> Sue I just added you to poultry colors and genetics on fb. There are very knowledgeable genetic people there, especially dian Gardner.
> Sylvester have your husband search for it on fb and join.


I'll have to catch DH after the Xmas season -- I'm retired but he still works part-time and has been working a lot lately -- and TY!



seminolewind said:


> Creves are a no from me. What characteristics would you want from them? They are not hardy. No feathers on legs, a poof. I would go with a Langsham because it's plainer than a Breda. Houdan's have a poof, but has the nice loose feathers. I had one a few years ago which led me to buy 2 more. They are very docile and have never fought me from being held. I love the loose and mottled feathers


Your point is very well taken about the Crevies and Houdan. Crevies have a lot of breeding/health issues though different from Breda issues -- plus Crevies are not hardy. Breda are a smooth-feathered bird but loose or heavily under-downed cross-breed chickens would be difficult to get back to the smooth-feathered Breda again so only for that reason I wouldn't use Houdan -- however, Houdan DO have an excellent temperament -- seems there's always some bad with every good on crosses.


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> I'll have to catch DH after the Xmas season -- I'm retired but he still works part-time and has been working a lot lately -- and TY!
> 
> Your point is very well taken about the Crevies and Houdan. Crevies have a lot of breeding/health issues though different from Breda issues -- plus Crevies are not hardy. Breda are a smooth-feathered bird but loose or heavily under-downed cross-breed chickens would be difficult to get back to the smooth-feathered Breda again so only for that reason I wouldn't use Houdan -- however, Houdan DO have an excellent temperament -- seems there's always some bad with every good on crosses.


My basic premis at the moment is to find breeds that were around when the Breda was around - so 1600s' for sure, probably earlier. The Breda is a composite bird, so the Houdan and Creve made the list b/c they both have V combs. These are just the French breeds at the moment. Working slowly through the likely suspects....there are a ton of French breeds I have never heard of - it is quite interesting.


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> My basic premis at the moment is to find breeds that were around when the Breda was around - so 1600s' for sure, probably earlier. The Breda is a composite bird, so the Houdan and Creve made the list b/c they both have V combs. These are just the French breeds at the moment. Working slowly through the likely suspects....there are a ton of French breeds I have never heard of - it is quite interesting.


Thank you for sharing your journey! It is so interesting!

When I was researching European breeds I discovered many of the foundation breeds from the Renaissance went extinct and then later were re-engineered again. Many Italian breeds are engineered new breeds using mostly Leghorns as foundation -- just about every Italian breed has the big floppy Leghorn type of comb. WWII destroyed a lot of European chicken breeds and there was a scramble to find or re-engineer the lost breeds. So, a French foundational breed may just be a recently 20th Century re-engineered breed again -- like the Breda which was re-engineered in Europe when its ancestor went extinct in the 1800's USA. No one has any original documentation on the appearance/looks of Breda (or Guilders, or Guilderlands, etc, as they had many names). There are so many French breeds and I noticed along the way that Greenfire has imported some unusual French breeds -- Bresse, Lyonnaise, Merlerault, and Barbezieux come to mind. Marans are considered French too although I don't care for the temperaments of the French breeds so far as I've researched their temperaments. French seem to engineer their chickens more for the table and eggs rather than temperament. Houdan were the most agreeable temperament from most of what I researched. Crevecoeurs are docile/aloof but breeders say they are not a hardy breed to raise because of their low gene pool -- some have had to cross w/ Polish to increase hardiness.

This is all just informational and not meant to influence your cross-breed choices one way or another. Your Hutt genetics book sounds like the best advice to follow. Shoot! If you get right down to it -- all chicken history is basically landrace genetics that man has engineered into several different breeds over several decades much like dog fanciers engineered different breeds from the littlest Chihuahuas to the largest Great Danes. Today, many breeders are creating Designer Dogs like the Cockapoo, Yorkiepoo, Malapoo, and a bunch of other "poo's" and if they ever breed true will probably eventually become new registered breeds.

The precious Dominique (very similar in temperament to the outgoing BBS Breda) almost went extinct in the 1970's with only 5 known USA breeding flocks left but some dedicated fanciers worked to save them from extinction to where they are now off the critical endangered list. At one time the early 1900's Dominiques sported both straight and rose combs and a division between the fanciers split the breed into two distinct breeds because they couldn't agree on the standard for Dominique combs. The rose comb Dominiques remained basically unchanged in appearance over several decades while the straight-comb Dominiques were engineered to be heavier and not so broody to increase egg production to become more dual purpose and then called themselves Plymouth Barred Rocks having the heavier bodies and straight combs different from their beginning ancestry as Dominiques. This is all just gleaned research from online but I'm sure there's more story behind it.


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## Sylvester017

@boskelli1571 Something chickendanz shared w/me today:

"I'm having wonderful luck with my Breda. All it took was removing that black line and they still produce blacks. Originally the blue breda was developed by crossing them with an Andalusian, and then in the dutch colonies it was later crossed with a cochin. I beleive you could do the same to increase the hardiness of the breed but it would take many generations to get the no comb back. If I were younger I'd take on a breeding project. The problem with Breda in this modern day is that they are too genetically in bred and that weakens their immune systems."


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> @boskelli1571 Something chickendanz shared w/me today:
> 
> "I'm having wonderful luck with my Breda. All it took was removing that black line and they still produce blacks. Originally the blue breda was developed by crossing them with an Andalusian, and then in the dutch colonies it was later crossed with a cochin. I beleive you could do the same to increase the hardiness of the breed but it would take many generations to get the no comb back. If I were younger I'd take on a breeding project. The problem with Breda in this modern day is that they are too genetically in bred and that weakens their immune systems."


That is great news for Danz! I told her I would be in the market for some more next year.
All your breed info/research is very helpful too. I also delve into the 'backstory' of breeds in my writings for the blog - so fascinating!
I did wonder about the Cochin - this bird has been used in just about every breed I think...and it would easily have been available in the Dutch East Indies - I didn't think about that...great work Syl


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## seminole wind

The Florida panther is said to be down to a population of 20 in 1967. Due to captured breeding programs the number got to about 120. But severe genetic health problems. So they imported Texas cougars to diversify the gene pool again.
Florida Panthers weigh about 100-150 pounds.

Now all we need is to import and animal that eats alligator.


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> That is great news for Danz! I told her I would be in the market for some more next year.
> All your breed info/research is very helpful too. I also delve into the 'backstory' of breeds in my writings for the blog - so fascinating!
> I did wonder about the Cochin - this bird has been used in just about every breed I think...and it would easily have been available in the Dutch East Indies - I didn't think about that...great work Syl


Research was my main job when I worked for the utility company and later as office mgr for an atty -- lots and lots of research -- and in the day and age when computer online research was not yet available! I had lots of libraries, books, and time to find the smallest detail that might make a case. The oldest archived books I researched were coming apart at the seams and pages very brittle. I still love the feel of a book in my hands but have to admit that online is so much FASTER!

I told Verna that I could understand using an Andalusian for cross-breeding since they are BBS and white egg layers with smooth feathering but that I was puzzled that fluffy heavily under-downed Cochin might interfere w/ the Breda smooth feathers. Waiting to hear her slant on that. Cochin are an Asian breed and not a Continental or European bird so it seems strange to be used in a Dutch breed. But hey, what do I know, eh?



seminolewind said:


> Now all we need is to import an animal that eats alligator.


TeeHee! Then you'd have the PETA types hollering about reptile endangerment!!!! A FL acquaintance of mine has a canal running below her backyard w/ only an iron bar fence so she can keep her view in an affluent neighborhood. She has a couple backyard chickens so I don't know how she can trust that open iron fencing to keep out the smaller alligators from squeezing into the yard to go after those chickens. Alligators LOVE chicken -- you always see documentaries where whole chickens are fed to captured 'gators. Pesky city Raccoons and 'Possums and feral kitties are our worst problem w/ an occasional Cooper's Hawk, so I can't imagine adding unpredictable Alligators to our worries!


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> Research was my main job when I worked for the utility company and later as office mgr for an atty -- lots and lots of research -- and in the day and age when computer online research was not yet available! I had lots of libraries, books, and time to find the smallest detail that might make a case. The oldest archived books I researched were coming apart at the seams and pages very brittle. I still love the feel of a book in my hands but have to admit that online is so much FASTER!
> 
> I told Verna that I could understand using an Andalusian for cross-breeding since they are BBS and white egg layers with smooth feathering but that I was puzzled that fluffy heavily under-downed Cochin might interfere w/ the Breda smooth feathers. Waiting to hear her slant on that. Cochin are an Asian breed and not a Continental or European bird so it seems strange to be used in a Dutch breed. But hey, what do I know, eh?
> 
> TeeHee! Then you'd have the PETA types hollering about reptile endangerment!!!! A FL acquaintance of mine has a canal running below her backyard w/ only an iron bar fence so she can keep her view in an affluent neighborhood. She has a couple backyard chickens so I don't know how she can trust that open iron fencing to keep out the smaller alligators from squeezing into the yard to go after those chickens. Alligators LOVE chicken -- you always see documentaries where whole chickens are fed to captured 'gators. Pesky city Raccoons and 'Possums and feral kitties are our worst problem w/ an occasional Cooper's Hawk, so I can't imagine adding unpredictable Alligators to our worries!


I can't imagine doing a thorough research without the internet.. it is faster, easier and more comprehensive. I too, love books and have a small 'chicken library' which are my 'go to' books when I need something. Gone are the days when you actually had the time to conduct research from books and other sources w/o a computer..
Well, I did a vicious hack job on French, Belgian, Dutch and German breeds. Anything that didn't have a long pedigree, looked too weird/normal or just didn't fit got scratched off my list.
Narrowed it down to around 6 for in depth checking....
I suspect Cochins were used in the East Indies b/c they would have been readily available from the trade routes with China - it would have taken months to get stock from Holland. Just a thought..anyway, want to do me a favor? Go to Waltzs' Ark site and check out the Augsberger chicken. I know it sort of looks wrong, but read the blurb on the comb variations and tell me what you think....pretty please!


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## Sylvester017

@boskelli1571 A few years ago Greenfire had imported the Augsburger and Omega Hills Farm bought out GFF's entire Augie stock. Now on the Omega Hills website I no longer see the Augies. Waltz's must've bought all of Omega's Augie stock -- I can't imagine Augies were a best-seller since you don't see this rare breed much in the USA. Waltz's must be trying to keep the breed going. Most customers prefer color choices in chicken breeds where Augies only come in black and Australorps come in black with probably a better egg production (and cheaper to buy).

What I gleaned from early research of the Augsburger is that they occasionally are born with a buttercup-type of comb -- but only about 25% or less of the hatches will form this special buttercup comb. I have no idea what the other 75% deformed combs come out like but this could be why breeders don't deal w/ the Augie -- no consistent comb formation. Whereas, the Penedesenca "king's comb" or "coronation comb" is almost 100% consistent in hatches. People incorrectly refer to it as a "carnation comb" but the correct term is "coronation comb." The "coronation comb" is not really a buttercup comb -- it just looks like a deformed straight-comb (to me) where 2 parts of the comb are connected at the back of the head. But I don't think Penedesenca are famous for their combs but rather are famous for their dark-pigmented eggs like the dark Marans eggs. Some owners have cross-bred the Pennies w/ Welsummers to get the Wellies eggs to come out darker. Pennies are a very skittish breed and crossing them w/ the somewhat calmer Wellies gives a better temperament hybrid that lays dark eggs similar to Marans -- I came across one seller who specifically sells these dark-egg Pennie-Wellie hybrids.

Other than this little bit of research when I was looking to build a backyard flock 7 yrs ago, I don't have much info on the Augies. I've never been one to want solid black birds in our brutal hot SoCal climate.


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## Sylvester017

@boskelli1571 So far the best V-combs are probably La Fleche since regular buttercup combs all look to be extremely large compared to La Fleche. It's interesting that Houdan in the UK have different larger butterfly combs from the USA Houdan combs. When I look at my Cuckoo Breda there are some small bumpy red ridges where it looks like a pea comb or walnut comb breed MIGHT've been in her genetic history -- she also shows a definite V-shape to the comb skin above her nostrils/beak -- there's no comb -- it's just a V-shape of skin but looks like it might've had La Fleche crossing since I don't know any other breed w/ a SLIM definitive V-spike that doesn't come out looking like a fleshy butterfly. UK Houdan have a V-comb that is VERY large and I consider butterfly rather than a straight V. Augsburgers are cute when they sport the proper buttercup but like the Houdan or Sicilian Buttercup there's too much butterfly fleshy element. Hey, what do I know? eh? I keep leaning to the Blue Andalusian, La Fleche, and Blue Langshan for my BBS Breda crosses -- but that's just personal preference and has nothing to do w/ my understanding of genetics. Keeping the very long toe feathers and definite vulture hocks and getting back no-comb are my 3 concerns about cross-breeding. There are other issues like keeping the Breda feathers smooth rather than fluffy like Orps or Cochins are known for.

Now that I think back I remember in my discussions w/ GaryDean26 on BYC they had Blue Andalusian as well as BBS Breda and they were very knowledgeable on the blue genetics -- they were reading a book on Andalusian blue breeding to apply to their BBS Breda breeding at the time -- I bet Blue Andalusian was on their property to cross w/ the BBS Breda but I never put 2 plus 2 together when dialoging w/ them. When they moved out of state, they no longer were breeding Breda and had turned to raising Arkansas Blue (for the blue eggs). Gosh, can you imagine the successive breedings it will take to get back to the Breda body type? But the BBS Breda would be much hardier by then! So exciting! So far our Cuckoo Breda seems hardy -- taller than the BBS variety and more skittish -- otherwise a pretty, statuesque, docile bird.

If you and another breeder take on the cross-breed experiment, keep notes or records to apply to writing an article on what to do or not to do when increasing the hardiness in a BBS Breda. Don't have to be fancy notes but it's amazing how easy to forget the simplest procedures if not jotted down in a running notebook pad -- that's the researchist in me talking LOL!


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> @boskelli1571 So far the best V-combs are probably La Fleche since regular buttercup combs all look to be extremely large compared to La Fleche. It's interesting that Houdan in the UK have different larger butterfly combs from the USA Houdan combs. When I look at my Cuckoo Breda there are some small bumpy red ridges where it looks like a pea comb or walnut comb breed MIGHT've been in her genetic history -- she also shows a definite V-shape to the comb skin above her nostrils/beak -- there's no comb -- it's just a V-shape of skin but looks like it might've had La Fleche crossing since I don't know any other breed w/ a SLIM definitive V-spike that doesn't come out looking like a fleshy butterfly. UK Houdan have a V-comb that is VERY large and I consider butterfly rather than a straight V. Augsburgers are cute when they sport the proper buttercup but like the Houdan or Sicilian Buttercup there's too much butterfly fleshy element. Hey, what do I know? eh? I keep leaning to the Blue Andalusian, La Fleche, and Blue Langshan for my BBS Breda crosses -- but that's just personal preference and has nothing to do w/ my understanding of genetics. Keeping the very long toe feathers and definite vulture hocks and getting back no-comb are my 3 concerns about cross-breeding. There are other issues like keeping the Breda feathers smooth rather than fluffy like Orps or Cochins are known for.
> 
> Now that I think back I remember in my discussions w/ GaryDean26 on BYC they had Blue Andalusian as well as BBS Breda and they were very knowledgeable on the blue genetics -- they were reading a book on Andalusian blue breeding to apply to their BBS Breda breeding at the time -- I bet Blue Andalusian was on their property to cross w/ the BBS Breda but I never put 2 plus 2 together when dialoging w/ them. When they moved out of state, they no longer were breeding Breda and had turned to raising Arkansas Blue (for the blue eggs). Gosh, can you imagine the successive breedings it will take to get back to the Breda body type? But the BBS Breda would be much hardier by then! So exciting! So far our Cuckoo Breda seems hardy -- taller than the BBS variety and more skittish -- otherwise a pretty, statuesque, docile bird.
> 
> If you and another breeder take on the cross-breed experiment, keep notes or records to apply to writing an article on what to do or not to do when increasing the hardiness in a BBS Breda. Don't have to be fancy notes but it's amazing how easy to forget the simplest procedures if not jotted down in a running notebook pad -- that's the researchist in me talking LOL!


All great advice Syl - I hate keeping notes, but I've already started. I will be keeping the lists I have checked through for reference.
Agreed that the La Fleche is a good candidate. I asked about the Augie b/c an Augie can have a V comb, I believe it's considered imperfect, but...who knows?
I read somewhere that the Creve was used with the Breda, but if I remember correctly, it was used in crossing for something else.
I just ordered for next year from Waltzs' - 8BBS, fingers crossed.
I will likely order from Danz too for variety especially since she is having better results now.
When you talked with Gary Dean, did you contact any other folks on that site for info.? I'm toying with the idea of contacting those that are still there to see what input they might have....
Have you been to the FB Breda page yet? There are some folks up in Washington and Oregon state who will be hatching next year - maybe they could find you a blue girl.....


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## Maryellen

Don't forget rare feather ranch in ca has mottled breda too


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## Maryellen

And Chris has splash and blue in Ontario canada


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> And Chris has splash and blue in Ontario canada


Yes thanks - I have sufficient mottleds and am waiting to hear from Chris....
Thank God for the mottleds - 2 of them have just started laying, I thought I was actually going to have to buy eggs this week...my laying flock are free loading...


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## chickenqueen

seminolewind said:


> Now all we need is to import and animal that eats alligator.


Don't you eat alligator?Every time I've eaten it,it was tasty.


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## seminole wind

No thanks.


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## boskelli1571

Well, Pegs - my disabled rooster is sitting by me now in his box. He's really a barn chicken, but it was so cold last night his 'good' leg got a touch of frostnip...even though I had a light on for him.
His leg has cleaned up nicely, lots of little skin tears b/c he kept hurting his leg but couldn't feel it.
He will be in for the next little spell since we are at 12F now and falling.
The cats/dogs aremost interested in our house guest - the cats are a bit scared I think!


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## boskelli1571

So - the patient is doing better today. Foot has pinked up but still a bit swollen. Eating/drinking well...dogs are scared of him too!
Here he is enjoying warm quarters..


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## chickenqueen

A baby aspirin might help with the swelling and any pain he may be having.It seems like EVERY winter I have a house guest.I'm still waiting for this year's guest but so far,so good.


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## Maryellen

Exchequer leghorns are mottled, those could maybe be used too? Of course the comb doesn't help


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## boskelli1571

chickenqueen said:


> A baby aspirin might help with the swelling and any pain he may be having.It seems like EVERY winter I have a house guest.I'm still waiting for this year's guest but so far,so good.


Do you use a whole baby aspirin? I'm a bit leary since he has so many problems....


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## boskelli1571

chickenqueen said:


> Don't you eat alligator?Every time I've eaten it,it was tasty.


What does it taste like? - can't say I've ever eaten it...


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## seminole wind

boskelli1571 said:


> Do you use a whole baby aspirin? I'm a bit leary since he has so many problems....


HI I use half a baby aspirin (the small ones for daily cardiac pts.) 81mg pills, and a real bargain generic. Works really well on arthritis.


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> All great advice Syl - I hate keeping notes, but I've already started. I will be keeping the lists I have checked through for reference.
> Agreed that the La Fleche is a good candidate. I asked about the Augie b/c an Augie can have a V comb, I believe it's considered imperfect, but...who knows?
> I read somewhere that the Creve was used with the Breda, but if I remember correctly, it was used in crossing for something else.
> I just ordered for next year from Waltzs' - 8BBS, fingers crossed.
> I will likely order from Danz too for variety especially since she is having better results now.
> When you talked with Gary Dean, did you contact any other folks on that site for info.? I'm toying with the idea of contacting those that are still there to see what input they might have....
> Have you been to the FB Breda page yet? There are some folks up in Washington and Oregon state who will be hatching next year - maybe they could find you a blue girl.....


I'll keep FB in mind. Only my DH is on FB and I don't want to bother him during his busy holiday workdays right now. I don't want to join FB myself but maybe after the holidays he'll have time to walk me thru the Breda group once he joins. P.S. I hate social media or doing anything online other than BYC or this forum. I won't do online banking either!

Heads up -- Be very careful to quarantine the non-vaccinated Waltz's birds. Since they sent me an Ameraucana w/Marek's, a cockerel instead of a pullet, and both the Ameraucana and Breda cockerel had coccidia/worms/and the cockerel was sneezing, I'm gun-shy. I had to treat both birds at the vet and finally had to put down the Ameraucana. Was lucky the Breda cockerel pulled through but I remember having to tape up his legs because he kept pecking at his bloody toe quills.

When I last dialogued w/ GaryDean26 on BYC they no longer had Breda any more but I bet they would be knowledgeable and nice to answer any breeding questions about Breda or BBS breeding -- you might PM them directly on BYC and see what happens. A while ago I searched for a Blue Breeding subject on BYC and found a nice thread that answered a question for me but it was a general question. Breeders on that thread would have the kind of answers you're going to need answered when encountering a cross-project. I was surprised how many threads come up in the searches on BYC and I looked for the most active threads. I bet @dawg53 on this forum could offer some good advice too. I've always respected the kind of advice dawg gives -- sometimes curt but sound advice. 



Maryellen said:


> Don't forget rare feather ranch in ca has mottled breda too


I have loved working w/ Christine at RFR of CA but she only sells Mottled Breda now. She has other chicken breeds in Lavender as her new project.



Maryellen said:


> And Chris has splash and blue in Ontario canada


Can any poultry or hatching eggs cross the border? US DOA has been really strict of late.



boskelli1571 said:


> Yes thanks - I have sufficient mottleds and am waiting to hear from Chris....
> Thank God for the mottleds - 2 of them have just started laying, I thought I was actually going to have to buy eggs this week...my laying flock are free loading...


Lucky you! I'm still waiting for ONE of my 5 girls to show signs that they're ready!



Maryellen said:


> Exchequer leghorns are mottled, those could maybe be used too? Of course the comb doesn't help


@Maryellen -- it's not only the floppy comb that would be a problem but the Mottled Exchequer wouldn't fit in a BBS Breda cross-breeding. Exchequers would be good as far as color for Mottled Breda crossing but not for BBS Breda. Also, there's too much white in Exchequers where Mottled Breda show more of a waterfall hackle blending of Black & White like RFR's Mottled Breda. Andalusian have the same floppy comb as Exchequer but the BBS Andalusian will have the better genetic BBS to cross w/ BBS Breda. But again, what do I know, eh?!


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> So - the patient is doing better today. Foot has pinked up but still a bit swollen. Eating/drinking well...dogs are scared of him too!
> Here he is enjoying warm quarters..


Pegs is so precious! The disabled Breda chickendanz has is a black pullet w/ only one wing and that's her name "One Wing" -- dialogued w/ danz again and here's what she shared:

" I think the Langshan is as close as any breed to the body type and leg feathering of a Breda. The problem of course is the comb. It's amazing how similar they are in build but the Langshan is a lot bigger. Did you know that there is a bantam and a Large fowl Breda? I don't believe there is a distinction here in the U.S. "


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> Pegs is so precious! The disabled Breda chickendanz has is a black pullet w/ only one wing and that's her name "One Wing" -- dialogued w/ danz again and here's what she shared:
> 
> " I think the Langshan is as close as any breed to the body type and leg feathering of a Breda. The problem of course is the comb. It's amazing how similar they are in build but the Langshan is a lot bigger. Did you know that there is a bantam and a Large fowl Breda? I don't believe there is a distinction here in the U.S. "


Pegs is living the life right now! We did 3 hourly feedings last night to check on him - he ate voraciously and I think he's finally full today  He's getting feisty, so I have put an oil fired radiator in his coop and will check in the morning to see if it's warm enough, but he's indoors for tonight.
I'm so glad I brought him in last night, our temp dipped to -1F!!
Your suggestion of contacting Gary Dean is a good one. I'm not going to bother anyone this close to Christmas, but will start in after the holidays.
The Waltzs' Bredas' will have their own new quarters away from the other birds, but I will certainly keep my eyes and ears open for trouble.
When you finally look at the Breda page on FB you will fall in love with many of the pix poster there! There are some beautiful white Bredas' - sadly they live in Europe...


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## Maryellen

Sylvester mottled bredas are supposed to be even mottling all over, not more white or more black. This one is close to standard a bit but not 100%.


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## Maryellen

And yeah the white ones in Europe are beautiful


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## chickenqueen

boskelli1571 said:


> What does it taste like? - can't say I've ever eaten it...


It tastes faintly like gamey chicken but tougher.We don't get it "fresh" here in Ohio but every time I've ordered it I liked it.It was always breaded and fried.


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## Wilbur's Mom

I think breeding is fascinating. I wish had more time to pursue that. Yes genetics would be a dry read I imagine. Lots of luck is needed it seems!


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## Maryellen

I think Sylvester you would be awesome at breeding, the knowledge you have is amazing


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## boskelli1571

chickenqueen said:


> It tastes faintly like gamey chicken but tougher.We don't get it "fresh" here in Ohio but every time I've ordered it I liked it.It was always breaded and fried.


Ewwww - I'll pass thanks...the dogs would like it


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> Pegs is living the life right now! We did 3 hourly feedings last night to check on him - he ate voraciously and I think he's finally full today  He's getting feisty, so I have put an oil fired radiator in his coop and will check in the morning to see if it's warm enough, but he's indoors for tonight.
> I'm so glad I brought him in last night, our temp dipped to -1F!!
> Your suggestion of contacting Gary Dean is a good one. I'm not going to bother anyone this close to Christmas, but will start in after the holidays.
> The Waltzs' Bredas' will have their own new quarters away from the other birds, but I will certainly keep my eyes and ears open for trouble.
> When you finally look at the Breda page on FB you will fall in love with many of the pix poster there! There are some beautiful white Bredas' - sadly they live in Europe...


Of course, you MUST post pics of the Waltz's birds when you get them. Waltz's DOES have pretty birds -- the quarantine will tell all as far as health.



Maryellen said:


> Sylvester mottled bredas are supposed to be even mottling all over, not more white or more black. This one is close to standard a bit but not 100%.


Mottled Breda are MUCH prettier in their mottling than Exchequer IMO. The Black in your pullet has much better black/white ratio than the mostly white Exchequers. Maybe it depends on the line(?) and what characteristics owners are breeding for but that's just my personal preference. Beautiful pullet!



Maryellen said:


> And yeah the white ones in Europe are beautiful


chickendanz had a pure white Breda pullet for 7 years before she sadly had to put her down for respiratory issues that wouldn't heal. I'll have to ask her if the white pullet was a hatching fluke or if she bought white specifically. chickendanz has had her Breda since GFF first imported them about a decade ago.



Maryellen said:


> I think Sylvester you would be awesome at breeding, the knowledge you have is amazing


I'm so stoked about Breda and if I were zoned for roo's or space the Breda is the only breed that would occupy breeding pens! They are such GREAT birds and so-o-o unique! I've always loved Dominiques and Breda are so similar in temperament and size to Doms that it's a perfect flock blend for us. Have fun picking out the Cuckoo Breda from the Dom chicks. I love her vulture hocks -- best hocks of any Breda I've had!


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## Maryellen

Respiratory issues ? You say she had a hen with respiratory issues for 7 years?
That's a huge red flag . Now that I've gone thru what I did, I'm very leery of respiratory issues.... did she get bloodwork done to find out what her hen had? How does anyone know if it was contagious????


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## seminole wind

[

Heads up -- Be very careful to quarantine the non-vaccinated Waltz's birds. Since they sent me an Ameraucana w/Marek's, a cockerel instead of a pullet, and both the Ameraucana and Breda cockerel had coccidia/worms/and the cockerel was sneezing, I'm gun-shy. I had to treat both birds at the vet and finally had to put down the Ameraucana. Was lucky the Breda cockerel pulled through but I remember having to tape up his legs because he kept pecking at his bloody toe quills.

You can't quarantine for Mareks whether vaccinated or not. The vaccine mostly protects that chicken from developing tumors, but if exposed, they will still be a carrier probably for life.


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## Maryellen

Which means the ameracauna with mareks was with the Breda which means when you finally put the Breda with your flock he had mareks from the journey to you with the ameracauna. So it's possible that breda cockeral.had mareks and infected your birds..which means it's very possible the 2 new bredas you got (the blues) that died could have gotten mareks from your coop/property since the cockeral was there previously?


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> Respiratory issues ? You say she had a hen with respiratory issues for 7 years?
> That's a huge red flag . Now that I've gone thru what I did, I'm very leery of respiratory issues.... did she get bloodwork done to find out what her hen had? How does anyone know if it was contagious????


Be calm -- Smiles  The hen was fine for 7 years. It's just that she developed respiratory issues in her last month and wasn't responding to treatment for a few weeks and finally put down. I researched Breda and it seems they statistically are prone to respiratory issues -- probably because of low immunity from low gene pool or maybe those cavernous nostrils of theirs? The only shipped Breda I received that never had respiratory issues out of the shipping box was my Cuckoo Breda and I've had Breda shipped from 3 different breeders from 3 different states. And each bird w/ respiratory issues was from a BBS Breda. My BBS from RFR, Waltz's, & chickendanz had sneezing issues and needed treatment yet the Cuckoo from RFR where one of my sneezing BBS came from NEVER had respiratory issues -- RFR -- same breeder of two different Breda varieties but only the BBS had the low immunity issues but the Cuckoo was fine. I never had Mottled so I can't attest to their hardiness but those beautiful BBS sure could use some help.



Maryellen said:


> Which means the ameracauna with mareks was with the Breda which means when you finally put the Breda with your flock he had mareks from the journey to you with the ameracauna. So it's possible that breda cockeral.had mareks and infected your birds..which means it's very possible the 2 new bredas you got (the blues) that died could have gotten mareks from your coop/property since the cockeral was there previously?


Relax LOL! I NEVER put new juveniles in with my flock! They are always quarantined and not just a few days or weeks but at least two months before integrating. I've kept some birds isolated as long as 4 months (usually my favorites which we spoil terribly!). The Ameraucana was put down two weeks after receiving her. The Breda w/ her (which was a cockerel that had been missent to me) was never integrated into my flock of hens -- there's no way I want a roo in my flock anyway -- I'm not zoned for roo's. A farm friend of mine took him -- she rescues unwanted roo's, battery hens, unwanted livestock, and has no issue w/ rescuing sick or disabled chickens -- a lovely gesture beyond my ability! The BBS cockerel never contracted Marek's which attested to the little guy's hardiness and our friend made him their indoor/outdoor pet in addition to giving about 50 other chickens a home on her property. My friend has even successfully treated one of her own roo's w/ Marek's.

This is ICHABOD, the 6-month Breda cockerel my friend adopted from me 









My vet said if it's not an advanced case it is _possible_ to treat Marek's -- I never asked him if it mattered which strain of Marek's since there's about 5 different strains -- but since he's worked in the poultry industry I didn't question him. He never immediately puts down a Marek's chicken and has a wait-and-see attitude to see the chicken's progress before euthanizing.

And, no, the two new Blue juveniles I got were not exposed to Marek's. There was no Marek's in question. The two juveniles did not have Marek's symptoms per the vet -- the paralysis earmarks were never present. The symptoms were avian leukosis -- causes the chicken to behave normally and eat normally but over several weeks/months will waste away -- it's an internal organ attack. Leukosis is a virus that's likely to pass on from infected mating parents to their offspring but can also pass thru fleas, lice, insects -- nutrition never assimilates into the body and the juvenile loses weight and eventually dies -- there's no "cure". The vet would charge over $1000 for diagnostic tests, bloodwork, and treatments but told me the birds would not survive leukosis so didn't advise expenditure. I only pay $$$ for live birds and have no interest in paying for a dead one since I don't breed. My vet is not one to advise necropsies unless the owner insists. I've had my vet for almost 7 years and he hasn't steered me wrong yet. He's like a chicken whisperer -- he checks my bird, tells me his diagnosis, and then backs it up with treatments that has saved many a bird in my flock. Out of 18 birds that have passed through here, he's only had to euthanize 3 -- he saved all other sick birds I took to him. I've referred a couple other chicken owners to him in my area and they've been very pleased w/ him. Our local park rangers take injured wild animals to him too like deer, foxes, rabbits, tortoises, etc etc. His practice has increased so much this past year that his office staffers have been tripled.

I've been thru Marek's, Fowl Pox, Lice, Coccidia, Worms, Cancer, Tumors, Respiratory Issues, Bleeding Quills, raising day-old chicks from the feed store, and just plain general day-to-day health care maintenance and predator solutions for hens and coop -- it's amazing how I panic less these days and take things more in stride now that I've had a few stressful experiences w/ my flock. Things that panicked me years ago are all just part of chickeneering for me and DH today -- thanks to help from great people on the chicken threads and, of course, our fabulous vet! I've come to be less critical of breeders who ship birds that might have worms, coccidia, respiratory issues, etc -- they've got a tough job. Yes, there can be the occasional breeder who is naive about their business but for the most part chicken people are not out to purposely screw any one -- "buyer beware" helps here! I've had wonderful breeders who sent me chickens w/ worms, coccidia, or respiratory issues unawares. Some birds stress in shipment or stress going from one home situation to another and stress can bring on symptoms otherwise not apparent -- so many variables. I've also learned to take curt or rude written statements in stride because sometimes typing doesn't always politely convey a typist's good intentions. Goodness! I got onto a warm and fuzzy subject re chickeneers -- I just love people w/ chickens, or who breed, or hatch chickens!


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## Maryellen

Oh Sylvester I wasn't being mean I was just worried for you. Im.sorry you took my posts the wrong way.


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## boskelli1571

Maryellen said:


> Oh Sylvester I wasn't being mean I was just worried for you. Im.sorry you took my posts the wrong way.


I think Syl understands..when I first started with chickens I was OCD with them. Even took a bird to the vet for a 'lump' - it turned out to be a full, normal crop!  The thing is when you go through something as you are now, it's second nature to be a bit paranoid about everything. 
Sadly, many birds are infected with Mareks, LL, etc. and if we were to cull them all there would be a lot less chickens around.
As Karen has done, it's possible to live with Mareks in the flock. We treat worms, coccidia, parasites as we see them, so the birds have a good life all in all.
Things such as LL will slowly kill a bird unless you euthanize it. Then we disinfect scrupulously, wait patiently and start again hoping for better luck next time.
Although I would dearly love to breed my birds, if they have Mareks or similar, they will live the best lives I can give them and the Mareks stops here. The best we can do is breed for resistance.


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> Oh Sylvester I wasn't being mean I was just worried for you. Im.sorry you took my posts the wrong way.


No worries Maryellen -- I'm always worried that somehow my typing doesn't convey what I'm trying to say. It's funny how sometimes things I type doesn't say it in the nice way I meant it to. You couldn't be nicer and I appreciate all your inputs - Smiles!


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> Sadly, many birds are infected with Mareks, LL, etc. and if we were to cull them all there would be a lot less chickens around.
> As Karen has done, it's possible to live with Mareks in the flock. We treat worms, coccidia, parasites as we see them, so the birds have a good life all in all.
> Things such as LL will slowly kill a bird unless you euthanize it. Then we disinfect scrupulously, wait patiently and start again hoping for better luck next time.
> Although I would dearly love to breed my birds, if they have Mareks or similar, they will live the best lives I can give them and the Mareks stops here. The best we can do is breed for resistance.


I went nuts when I first started research on chicken diseases. Apparently chickens are considered expendable by the poultry industry because an entire flock can be euthanized from a devastating epidemic that has no "cure" but in 21 hatching days the poultry industry has a new flock to work with and in 2 months the meat chickens are already sent processed to market. Therefore, very little medical research is allotted to fight poultry diseases -- it's just easier to slaughter ailing birds and start w/ a fresh hatch. Sad, eh? It's great that Marek's, Fowl Pox, and Pneumonia vaccinations have been created but even then it depends on the strain of a virus whether the vaccine actually works effectively or not. There are still so many other poultry viruses w/ no developed vaccines.

And you're correct about the latent viruses our chickens carry. Something like 95 or 98% of USA flocks actually have been exposed to or are latent carriers of Marek's, MS/MG (respiratory issues), coccidia, etc etc etc. Even the Avian Influenza virus is endemic in chickens but of late has mutated into the AI epidemic that bothered the Midwest these last couple years. Agricultural depts want to blame migrating bird flocks as the carriers of AI but in Indonesia infected flocks of wild geese and ducks fly migratory routes directly over backyard chicken flocks and not one case of AI was found in the chickens. Resistance/hardiness prevents some birds from displaying/developing the symptoms of a latent virus so an owner may never know their flock is a carrier. That's why I stopped worrying about the horrible stories about how dangerous these viruses are. I bet if we owners of flocks ever tested our birds we'd be shocked to find our birds silently/latently carry one type of virus or more but are just too hardy to succumb to symptoms. In 7 years I never had experienced Fowl Pox until my older Silkie was molting, her resistance and appetite was down, and she got a case of Fowl Pox while none of the other birds came down w/ it -- her resistance was down and boom, she got sick. Happily, w/ my wonderful vet she came thru great and is out and about as top hen again in the flock. It's said mosquitoes are the main culprit of spreading FP yet none of my healthy birds contracted it -- just the one w/ weak resistance at the time. Guess that's why my vet always stresses vitamins, vitamins, vitamins for my birds every time I leave his office. Apparently vitamin supplementation isn't just for humans any more.


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## Sylvester017

Had to post my Dominique "Opal" 's first little 1.5-oz tan egg. Here's a pic of Opal's tan egg next to our Cuckoo Breda's 2.25-oz tinted XL egg. We are very pleased with our now 2-yr-old Cuckoo Breda who was one of the last two Cuckoo Breda pullets from RFR of CA. I really hope Dutch Connection continues to keep some Cuckoo Breda stock to keep this hardy Breda variety from extinction. I've had stinky luck with BBS Breda but the Cuckoo Breda has now outlived all the BBS I've ever had. Breda are such excellent egg layers and sweet docile unique-looking pets as well! My avatar is our Cuckoo Breda "Her Royal Highness Charlotte Elizabeth Diana, Princess of Cambridge" but we just call her "Char" LOL!


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## seminole wind

No doubt, Bredas are special birds. I just have to take a break here. But it's always like a candy store when those catalogs come.


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## Steinwand

I've never heard of Bredas what are they specifically?


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## seminole wind

I'm sure Maryellen and Sylvester can tell you better than me.


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## Maryellen

Steinwand they are a breed that has no combs, vulture hocks ,and are pretty rare. They are a dutch breed ,come in black, blue, mottled, cuckoo, splash and i think anothet color


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## Maryellen

Here are the 3 colors i have.

Sylvester can tell you too she has alot of knowledge of them


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## boskelli1571

Steinwand said:


> I've never heard of Bredas what are they specifically?


One of the earliest 'composite' breeds. They used to be popular here in the US around the time of the Civil War - they were then known as Guelder Fowl or Gelders.
Vanished from the US after that time, recently re-introduced to US. There really are a rare bird even in their own country of Holland.
If you want to see some stunning pics go to the Breda Fowl Fanciers page on FB.
The color ME missed was white,


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## Maryellen

Thanks Sue, i wasnt sure about the white, i saw some white ones on the breda fb page but wasnt sure


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## Steinwand

Hmm maybe I'll have to give in and get some lol


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## boskelli1571

Steinwand said:


> Hmm maybe I'll have to give in and get some lol


Be warned - they are addictive! They are slow growers but turn into very gentle birds, non-aggressive...


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## Sylvester017

seminolewind said:


> I'm sure Maryellen and Sylvester can tell you better than me.


My website mail was down for maintenance over the weekend so missed a few of the posts. Here are some pics of Breda I've had. Lovely non-aggressive family-friendly temperament, hens about 4.5-5 lbs, males about 6 lbs, no comb whatsoever (just a triangle tassle crest which is larger on males), beautiful vulture hocks, long feathery legs/toes (which wear down outdoors during scratching and foraging), and very large cavernous nostrils like the Polish or Houdan, medium wattles on hens, good layers anywhere from 1.75-oz to 2.25-oz eggs, curious, outgoing, statuesque regal stance, color varieties come in BBS (Blue/Black/Splash), Cuckoo, Black & White Mottled, sometimes pure White sports occur and sometimes Blue & White Mottled sports:

Blue pullet - she loved the camera lens









Blue Breda pullet with lovely lacing developing on her body feathers 









4.5 month old Blue Breda cockerel -- this youngster loved the camera too! 









Blue Breda cockerel 








Very young Blue Breda pullet (2.1-lbs) -- her wattles aren't even showing yet -- this was her first day out of the shipping box and she made herself right at home exploring the house! At this young age the Breda pullets already show a beautiful tail and statuesque stance -- it's in their genes to stand so elegantly and erect.








Blue Breda hen








Blue Breda hen -- no comb, very feathery feet








This Blue Breda hen loved the camera lens -- all my other chickens were afraid of it but not her!








Our current Cuckoo Breda as a pullet (she's my avatar pic too)








Of all my Breda this cuckoo hen had the largest nostrils -- Breda have a lovely regal stance, no fear of the camera, and lovely tails -- quite a royal-looking unique breed and gentle.


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## seminole wind

Really nice birds! They sure are gangly teenagers.


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## Sylvester017

seminolewind said:


> Really nice birds! They sure are gangly teenagers.


Yes, there's a very tall, statuesque, erect stance on the Breda. Because Breda feathering is not heavily under-downed like Brahma, Orpington, Wyandotte, or Cochin, the Breda look much slimmer than most breeds so as teenagers they can appear "gangly." Because of our hot humid SoCalif summers sometimes running in the 100's for months, the slim body feathering of the Breda works well for our climate. Also, because Breda are not a heavy body breed w/ hens between 4 to 5 lbs, they don't suffer so much from heatwaves like our heavily fluffed Ameraucana or heavy bodied Marans did. We have yet to see how well our new Dominique pullets will do when our horrid heatwaves start this summer. The Doms are a medium-sized breed too and so far have lovely docile temperaments like the Breda.


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## Maryellen

Breda mottled rooster i had



















Some of my black hens



















Some of my mottled










This baby looks like an eagle at 4 months old


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## boskelli1571

seminolewind said:


> Really nice birds! They sure are gangly teenagers.


Yes they are, but when they fill in it's like the 'ugly duckling' transformation


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> Breda mottled rooster i had
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of my black hens


What I love about the Mottled roos are their waterfall hackles. This roo in your photos has a nice balance of black and white in his tail feathers. Some Mottled can have too much black or too much white -- when hens have a nice balance of a little more black than white in their tails they are my favorite look for hens. My reasoning is because white looks dingy after birds have a few dust baths. The black feathers have less tendency to look dull, although prolonged heatwave sunshine like ours will eventually turn black feathers rusty red. Of course, I'm thinking in show terms. For just a beautiful eye-candy backyard flock that happen to be good layers also it's not so critical.

My Black Silkie would turn rusty red after a brutal heatwave summer.























After molting the Silkie's new feathers grew back shiny black again. It was like having two Silkies in one -- a rusty red one in summer and a pretty black one in winter!


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## Maryellen

No way that is the same rooster???


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> No way that is the same rooster???


Well, she was a hen, not a roo. And yep, she would turn from shiny black to rusty red when our summer heatwaves started up. After molting she returned to shiny black until the next year's heatwaves started. Welcome to sunny California -- NOT -- LOL! This is why I don't get solid black chickens any more. I don't get breeds with a lot of white or solid white any more either -- the sun turns the white feathers a dingy yellow and dust baths and mud leave permanent stains that baths/shampoo doesn't remove.


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## seminole wind

I'm glad my chickens have all day shade here in Florida.


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## chickenqueen

I have a solid white Cochin/EE mix.Her real name is Lily but I call her Grub because she always has egg on her face and gets so dirty.It is just her,none of the others get that dirty.I got her 4 month old solid white baby and so far she's(?) not like Mama.I need to take pics of them.The cockerel hatched at least a week after the others but he's twice as big and has been crowing since 7 w o.


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## boskelli1571

Well, after a long trip from Kansas, my Blue Boy is here! The breeder paid extra to have him 'overnighted' but it still took 2 days - Ks USPS seems to suck.... not the best picture but he is handsome


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## Maryellen

Oooooh sue he is gorgeous!!!


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## Maryellen

I hear on other chicken forums the KS usps is like the twilight zone, chicks either get lost, crushed or take forever to be shipped


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## chickenqueen

He's a beauty!!!


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## Sylvester017

@boskelli1571 How old is your new Blue Boy? So glad he survived the trip! Aren't the Blue males the most stunning you ever saw! Your boy is still young as he hasn't yet grown in those long tail sickles yet but you must post photos when he does!


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> @boskelli1571 How old is your new Blue Boy? So glad he survived the trip! Aren't the Blue males the most stunning you ever saw! Your boy is still young as he hasn't yet grown in those long tail sickles yet but you must post photos when he does!


Verna says he's around 10 months. We had quite the 'snow dump' yesterday and he was the only one to stick his head outside the coop! He seems to take it all in his stride


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> Verna says he's around 10 months. We had quite the 'snow dump' yesterday and he was the only one to stick his head outside the coop! He seems to take it all in his stride


I asked Verna yesterday and she said he was her cockerel. And aren't Breda wonderful about the laid-back attitudes? They have such wonderful temperaments! I mean, I love my new Dominique pullets -- they are so friendly and pesty -- but the Breda have all other breeds beat as far as the gentler and easygoing demeanor but still are outgoing and friendly toward their humans and are kind to their flockmates. It's raining here and my flock is sloshing around in mud.


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> I asked Verna yesterday and she said he was her cockerel. And aren't Breda wonderful about the laid-back attitudes? They have such wonderful temperaments! I mean, I love my new Dominique pullets -- they are so friendly and pesty -- but the Breda have all other breeds beat as far as the gentler and easygoing demeanor but still are outgoing and friendly toward their humans and are kind to their flockmates. It's raining here and my flock is sloshing around in mud.


Agreed - he looks like he's been here forever. Not at all skittish with me.


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## seminole wind

Glad he made it safe. He is beautiful?


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## Sylvester017

Maryellen said:


> I hear on other chicken forums the KS usps is like the twilight zone, chicks either get lost, crushed or take forever to be shipped


You know, as a person who has had over 75% of my birds shipped to me in the last 7 years, it's the luck of the draw as to how birds handle shipping -- depends on the hardiness of the bird, the varying weather temps, USPS shipping who use FedEx Air to fly birds cross-country, the care of individual postal handlers, and the amount of time birds are kept in their shipping crate, etc etc. I found my best received good condition shipments (including from KS) are crates that have been marked in huge handwritten letters (by the breeder) to CALL 4 PICKUP and my phone number in large letters because by the time USPS and FedEx plaster their stickers all over the box the LIVE BIRDS print on the bird crate gets covered!!!! I have come to notify all my breeders to plaster in large handwriting on both sides of the crate to CALL 4 PICKUP and my phone number before they ship my order. It works like a charm. I seem to be first customer at the post office for pickup as my P.O. gets dozens of chicken crates in their office every Spring and my large phone numbers seem to catch their attention for priority. Try it and see if it works for you too. Hey, it doesn't hurt to give the breeder a little extra cash bonus for their trouble. Breeders really want to see their precious birds arrive safely too.

I know all of my Breda had coccidia after a cross-country trip -- they are such delicate docile beauties so the older they are at shipping time, the better. Every one of my Breda juveniles have had coccidia as immediate vet tests revealed so Corid had to be administered immediately with each new set of Breda juvies. I've had shipments from VT, KS, MO, CO, and Northern CA coming to my SoCA destination and it seems coccidia is a large problem brought on by shipping stress and didn't matter whether I had 2-mo-old chicks or 5-mo-old juvies. Breda are docile creatures but shipping will stress them even if they don't show like they're stressed. My newest birds, 3 Dominique baby chicks, came from Privett Hatchery to my local feed store where I picked up my order the same day the chicks arrived and I had to give the stressed little guys a very quiet first day in the brooder yet still had one that got pasty butt. Treated her and she was fine in a couple days, so shipping stress is a terrible culprit.


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## chickenqueen

I've been getting mine shipped the last several years,too.The PO calls me about 5:30-6:00 a m,as soon as they arrive.


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## Sylvester017

chickenqueen said:


> I've been getting mine shipped the last several years,too.The PO calls me about 5:30-6:00 a m,as soon as they arrive.


After having my phone number handwritten large on the shipping crates, I've been getting those nice early 6 a.m. post office calls too! At my post office they get lots and lots of shipped chicks and adults arriving from all over the USA, mostly all on the same day each week, so a crate that has nice large handwritten telephone numbers on it catches employees' attention first. Bring a cup of coffee or a danish for the postal employee that fetches your crate -- they'll remember you!


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## seminole wind

Sylvester, I guess stress is what causes the cocci they carry to multiply. If it were me, I would not use medicated feed but a prophylactic course of corid after I would get them.


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## Sylvester017

seminolewind said:


> Sylvester, I guess stress is what causes the cocci they carry to multiply. If it were me, I would not use medicated feed but a prophylactic course of corid after I would get them.


Corid works wonders for coccidia and with our baby chicks we also used chick probiotics -- pasty butt was gone by the 2nd day. Plus we have a wonderful vet that used to work in the poultry industry and knows how to firmly but gently handle my chickens when I bring them in. A great vet is such a blessing!

Have you ever heard that cocci isn't the same as coccidia? Someone on a chicken thread said people mistakenly call coccidia "cocci" when the two are not the same. But what do I know? I don't get sick chickens often so I'm not up on all the viral/bacterial lingo.


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## boskelli1571

Technically that is true. Cocci describes the shape of the bacteria - cocci being round. There are many cocci - strepto-, staphylo etc. A singular cocci is a coccus
Coccidiosis describes the protozoan caused disease found in chickens.
Many folks use the words interchangeably, but they really are different...
Hope that helps


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## Sylvester017

Chicken Danz has acquired some La Fleche to do some experimental crossing with Breda to increase hardiness. She's varied the acquisitions from different breeders for different gene pools and giving them a respectable quarantine. She's had to downsize some other chickens to make room for her project. She did a lot of research to come up with hardy breed ideas. Let's root-root-root for her! She managed to come across a female La Fleche with no comb. She loves the rare breeds of poultry. Sounds like a promising project.

Anyone else giving cross-breeding a try to increase Breda hardiness? I'm not on Facebook or other social media so if you have some info I'd like to hear it here!


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> Chicken Danz has acquired some La Fleche to do some experimental crossing with Breda to increase hardiness. She's varied the acquisitions from different breeders for different gene pools and giving them a respectable quarantine. She's had to downsize some other chickens to make room for her project. She did a lot of research to come up with hardy breed ideas. Let's root-root-root for her! She managed to come across a female La Fleche with no comb. She loves the rare breeds of poultry. Sounds like a promising project.
> 
> Anyone else giving cross-breeding a try to increase Breda hardiness? I'm not on Facebook or other social media so if you have some info I'd like to hear it here!


I was laughing with her the other day - wanting 'defective' specimens for her project!  I don't have the $$ or room to put into x breeding right now, but I will wait ans see what happens with Danzs' project...it's a maybe in the future for me


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## Sylvester017

After having 3 rambunctious, outgoing, friendly, sociable Dominiques (since they were chicks), I am more in love and appreciative of my sweet calm Cuckoo Breda. I love my outgoing friendly Doms and got them so I could have eggs this Spring -- they haven't disappointed -- but they are so inquisitive, active, and mischievous. They just can't help being active and I've had to raise a 40-inch netting because they won't respect the 28-inch rabbit fencing dividing the people-side of the yard from the chicken-side of the backyard. The Doms are very crafty figuring how to squeeze into places they shouldn't while my calm Silkie and Breda respect all barriers.

A couple of the Cuckoo Dominiques who don't respect the short rabbit fence.









My Cuckoo Breda (white earlobe) has always respected the short fence.









If this temporary 40-inch high netting works to hold back the Dominiques I might invest in a 4-foot permanent wire fencing for better visibility -- this green stuff is ugly!


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## Maryellen

Good luck Sylvester! Mine fly over my 4 ft fence lol


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## Sylvester017

@Maryellen LOL! I just dialogued with someone on BYC who said their Dominiques fly over their _SIX_-foot fence! I never had this much trouble with any of my other breeds -- Leghorns, Ameraucana, Marans, Breda, or Silkies. But these dang Dominiques are mischievous flyers -- at least now they realize they don't belong on the "people" side of the yard and run to the gate when they see me to open it up so they can go back to their side. Dumb bunnies flew out of their yard so why can't they fly themselves back there?! If these Doms weren't so great in personality and egg-laying I wouldn't bother with them but they are such a great breed. Maybe I should cut down on their peppy vitamins LOL! Of course I've always liked Doms but in the last 3 years I've put Breda at the very top of my most favorite all-time chicken breed -- well-behaved, regal, docile-tempered but not wimpy, unique, outgoing, family-friendly, flock-friendly, productive egg-layers, stunning beauties! Other than the BBS rare-breed health issues I can't find anything wrong with Breda! Our Cuckoo Breda gave us a 2.5-oz egg the other day. As a pullet she started at 2-oz and this 2nd year her eggs have been 2.25 to 2.5-oz sizes. I've lost all my Blue Breda pullets before 2 yrs old so having this Cuckoo Breda live for 2 yrs so far is thrilling me!


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## seminole wind

When I had 3 young jerseys, they all went over a six foot fence. Couldn't do it the following year tho.

I have 2 speckled sussex and a BO that find any crevice to get out even tho they have about 1/2 acre to peck around in with lots of weeds.


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## Maryellen

I dont know why they cant fly back over, ive had to go get them.as they paced back and forth at the fence lol. Now they dont fly over anymore


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> @Maryellen LOL! I just dialogued with someone on BYC who said their Dominiques fly over their _SIX_-foot fence! I never had this much trouble with any of my other breeds -- Leghorns, Ameraucana, Marans, Breda, or Silkies. But these dang Dominiques are mischievous flyers -- at least now they realize they don't belong on the "people" side of the yard and run to the gate when they see me to open it up so they can go back to their side. Dumb bunnies flew out of their yard so why can't they fly themselves back there?! If these Doms weren't so great in personality and egg-laying I wouldn't bother with them but they are such a great breed. Maybe I should cut down on their peppy vitamins LOL! Of course I've always liked Doms but in the last 3 years I've put Breda at the very top of my most favorite all-time chicken breed -- well-behaved, regal, docile-tempered but not wimpy, unique, outgoing, family-friendly, flock-friendly, productive egg-layers, stunning beauties! Other than the BBS rare-breed health issues I can't find anything wrong with Breda! Our Cuckoo Breda gave us a 2.5-oz egg the other day. As a pullet she started at 2-oz and this 2nd year her eggs have been 2.25 to 2.5-oz sizes. I've lost all my Blue Breda pullets before 2 yrs old so having this Cuckoo Breda live for 2 yrs so far is thrilling me!


 Well, my Bredas' were outside their fence yesterday....they must have flown - it's 4' high! Like yours they can't get back in....
Anyway, if the weather co-operates today I'm going to start building the permanent pen around them.
I have decided to put my D'Uccles in with them since George my D'Uccle rooster hangs out with the Bredas all day. The RIR rooster chases him if he stays with the free rangers, so he stays with the Bredas - he keeps the Breda rooster juvies in line!
I will have to modify the coop 'furniture' but there will be plenty of room for all


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## chickenqueen

I don't have a problem with the chickens but the geese are another story.They took to roaming the neighborhood so I put up a fence with plastic T posts and deer netting.It worked for a couple of days then they discovered they could run into it and knock it down.Even when they are bad they make me laugh,though.They have taken to the neighbor's koi pond,1/10(or more) the size of their pond and the owners say it's full of soft shell snapping turtles and they were worried the geese would eat their fish which they won't but the turtles will.My next step is field fencing and metal T posts.Luckily it's on the other side of the pine trees and I won't have to look at it.FYI-I've been pricing fence and Rural King is the cheapest by far.


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## boskelli1571

chickenqueen said:


> I don't have a problem with the chickens but the geese are another story.They took to roaming the neighborhood so I put up a fence with plastic T posts and deer netting.It worked for a couple of days then they discovered they could run into it and knock it down.Even when they are bad they make me laugh,though.They have taken to the neighbor's koi pond,1/10(or more) the size of their pond and the owners say it's full of soft shell snapping turtles and they were worried the geese would eat their fish which they won't but the turtles will.My next step is field fencing and metal T posts.Luckily it's on the other side of the pine trees and I won't have to look at it.FYI-I've been pricing fence and Rural King is the cheapest by far.


Have you thought about solar fencing? I used it for a while and it was very successful. The charge ran down (my fault) and the rabbits chewed through it, but I want to repair it this year. It worked well for me and was comparatively inexpensive.


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## Sylvester017

seminolewind said:


> When I had 3 young jerseys, they all went over a six foot fence. Couldn't do it the following year tho.
> 
> I have 2 speckled sussex and a BO that find any crevice to get out even tho they have about 1/2 acre to peck around in with lots of weeds.


I always have problems teaching new pullets what the boundaries are and all the breeds I've had were quick to obey. But not the young Dominiques -- they are very stubborn and ignore the barriers even though they know they're going to the wrong side!



Maryellen said:


> I dont know why they cant fly back over, ive had to go get them.as they paced back and forth at the fence lol. Now they dont fly over anymore


I did notice that as pullets mature into the hen stage that they are less adventurous and resign themselves to respect barriers. I mean, even my well-behaved Breda were adventurous when they were pullets but they did learn early to respect barriers. Why chickens can't fly back the way they came is a mystery to me too!



boskelli1571 said:


> Well, my Bredas' were outside their fence yesterday....they must have flown - it's 4' high! Like yours they can't get back in....
> Anyway, if the weather co-operates today I'm going to start building the permanent pen around them.
> I have decided to put my D'Uccles in with them since George my D'Uccle rooster hangs out with the Bredas all day. The RIR rooster chases him if he stays with the free rangers, so he stays with the Bredas - he keeps the Breda rooster juvies in line!
> I will have to modify the coop 'furniture' but there will be plenty of room for all


I wouldn't hesitate to keep bantams with Breda. My bantam Silkies were very comfortable toodling around with the Bredas. I have one Silkie remaining -- she lost her Silkie buddy last year so now she stays close to my gentle-natured Cuckoo Breda and she avoids the rambunctious Dominique pullets. I sure hope the Doms mellow out. I mean, they aren't nasty, in fact, they are very friendly outgoing family-friendly visitor-friendly girls, but they need to chill out a bit more. They're 7 months old and still need to mature a bit. 



chickenqueen said:


> I don't have a problem with the chickens but the geese are another story.They took to roaming the neighborhood so I put up a fence with plastic T posts and deer netting.It worked for a couple of days then they discovered they could run into it and knock it down.Even when they are bad they make me laugh,though.They have taken to the neighbor's koi pond,1/10(or more) the size of their pond and the owners say it's full of soft shell snapping turtles and they were worried the geese would eat their fish which they won't but the turtles will.My next step is field fencing and metal T posts.Luckily it's on the other side of the pine trees and I won't have to look at it.FYI-I've been pricing fence and Rural King is the cheapest by far.


I've been so frustrated with flying Dominiques that I started a search for taller wire fencing. I laughed when I came across a 10-foot tall roll of deer netting! I didn't know it came that big!


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## seminole wind

Deer netting usually comes 7 feet by 100 feet. It's a PIA to work with. It snags on everything . I found the best luck running a piece of twine and draping the net over it. If you're careful, you can reuse it. 

I just bought 100 x 4 feet of hardware cloth from amazon. I think it came to $108 with no tax or shipping. I felt that was a good deal.


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## Maryellen

Once mine matured they didnt fly over the fence mostly. I have a few that still think the grass is greener on the other side


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## Sylvester017

seminolewind said:


> Deer netting usually comes 7 feet by 100 feet. It's a PIA to work with. It snags on everything . I found the best luck running a piece of twine and draping the net over it. If you're careful, you can reuse it.
> 
> I just bought 100 x 4 feet of hardware cloth from amazon. I think it came to $108 with no tax or shipping. I felt that was a good deal.


The deer netting looks like the 100' roll of bird netting I bought to use over my raised garden beds and that bird netting is JUNK! I still have some of the roll leftover and use it only as a last resort -- it's overly stiff, tears easily, snags on everything while I'm trying to work with it, and the garden lizards get tangled in it -- we had to cut away the twisted netting wrapped around a lizard's little body. DH and I find the extra-wide bridal net tulle (the really fine veil tulle) is the absolute best netting to work with for covering garden plants from the chickens and the good lizards don't get caught in the tulle. This is the 2nd year we're re-using the tulle from last year's gardening.












Maryellen said:


> Once mine matured they didnt fly over the fence mostly. I have a few that still think the grass is greener on the other side


That's what I'm hoping for with the Doms -- waiting for them to mature. This is only the 2nd time we've raised chickens from babies and their adolescence is driving us crazy. I'm accustomed to getting juvenile chickens rather than babies so these Doms seem to be taking forever to grow up compared to all the other breeds I've had. I'm so glad we have the Doms though -- great personality, non-combative, and great layers -- as chicks they grow so fast, the dinosaur stage goes fast too, and now we're riding out their pullet year.


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## chickenqueen

I went to Rural King last night and they had a few chicks left.It was hard not to buy them.I also saw someone with a very young Nubian kid in his basket,he was smaller than my 35lb dog.He was so cute.I'm still thinking of getting a couple and Nubians are my breed of choice.Finally got my fence,now all I have to do is get Dale away from the video games(sigh)and get him to put it up and keep the geese in the yard.


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## seminole wind

How much fencing did you buy?

Deer netting must be payback for earlier sins. The stuff is so aggravating. I have it around my plants right now.


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## Sylvester017

seminolewind said:


> How much fencing did you buy?
> 
> Deer netting must be payback for earlier sins. The stuff is so aggravating. I have it around my plants right now.


Not sure what your finances are like but I found the bridal tulle fine netting for wedding veils the absolute easiest softest stuff to work with yet it allows the sunshine through to the garden seedlings and keeps out the locusts and horned worm moths from laying their babies in my young plants -- bird or deer netting doesn't keep out these insects. I wait to find a 50% off coupon at JoAnn's Fabrics to buy the netting. I buy several yards over 100-inches wide and as low as $2.25/yd on sale. If not handled roughly, I can reuse the netting the following year. We weathered Santa Ana 60-mph wind gusts blowing debris everywhere but the netting stayed secure clipped to the tomato rings in the garden beds -- the Coleman pop-up canopy cover ripped to shreds but the netting remained secure! Bees, butterflies, and hummingbirds don't seem to like the tomato flowers so I don't feel I'm hurting the environment keeping the seedlings covered in net until the fruit starts to grow.


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## chickenqueen

I got 330 ft of 4" squares 4' high.Good enough to keep the geese in the yard.We got the T posts up yesterday.We're not sure how to hang it.I'll have to find a good video for Dale to watch,they have a video for everything.I have to do it right because it needs to keep the dog next door out,too.


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## boskelli1571

Well, I had a long overdue fight with some roosters yesterday. I had 3 boys in with the 8 pullets - way too many. I caught them gang raping a pullet so 2 went to the bachelor pad.
The girls seem much happier and more relaxed now. The roo I left seems to be quite gentle with them, the others were quite aggressive.
Peace reigns supreme


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## seminole wind

I have 4 silkie roos in my bachelor pad. I think they are around 2 years old now. I have 2 in with 3 silkie hens and 5 Polish hens. I could do better with one in there but I have 6 silkie roos.


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## Sylvester017

We just got through hanging 40-in tall plastic netting onto T-posts with a shorter 28-inch rabbit fencing along the bottom for reinforcement to keep the chickens from pushing under the plastic netting. We got a roll of rubber/plastic-coated 16 gauge spool of wire and cut off strips in the varied lengths we needed to secure the netting and rabbit fencing to the T-posts. We didn't trust that the hooks on the T-posts would hold up the fence and secured up to 3 areas of coated wire ties onto each of the T-posts to hold up the fencing. The coated wire ties are easy to bend and push through the holes located in the T-posts. We attached the fencing to two legs of our pop-up canopy too. It's been suggested to place the T-posts 6-feet apart but we did 5-feet apart because ultimately we want to use 4-foot wire fencing and don't want to put too much strain on distant T-posts.

I hate the way the ugly green plastic net looks but if it works to keep out the chickens I'll invest $$$ in PVC coated wire fencing for a permanent barrier and that way we'll be able to see the chickens better. I've been working on laying a paver stone walkway along the block wall so we aren't walking in mud on rainy days. The last rains we had were light sprinkles but enough to make slippery mud. Rain is forecast again for Friday and I'm working as fast as I can to lay as many pavers before then. I'm halfway there! When it rains the chickens hang out under the canopy where their dust box is located to keep dry. I'll take pics again when the walkway it's finished.


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## Sylvester017

seminolewind said:


> I have 4 silkie roos in my bachelor pad. I think they are around 2 years old now. I have 2 in with 3 silkie hens and 5 Polish hens. I could do better with one in there but I have 6 silkie roos.


Silkie roos are just too cute and too small to go to freezer camp. I was fortunate to have a friend take my Silkie roo when the little stinker started crowing, and crowing, and crowing LOL! I'm not zoned for roos.


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## chickenqueen

I used a similar fence to keep the chickens and geese off the front porch.It worked well for the chickens but the geese discovered they could more or less push it down and walk over it.I'm working on Plan B as soon as I get the field fence up at the border to keep the geese out of the neighbor's koi pond.The geese are so bad but even when they're bad,they make me laugh.


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## seminole wind

Sylvester, that fencing is great. I've recycled some of it for years. I always keep it when I take stuff down. I usually staple it up on posts where I don't really need strength, just enclosure.


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## Sylvester017

chickenqueen said:


> I used a similar fence to keep the chickens and geese off the front porch.It worked well for the chickens but the geese discovered they could more or less push it down and walk over it.I'm working on Plan B as soon as I get the field fence up at the border to keep the geese out of the neighbor's koi pond.The geese are so bad but even when they're bad,they make me laugh.


My sister and I love birds, ALL birds, and even buzzards make us laugh! My sister especially loves ducks and geese. I do love ducks and geese too but have much too small a yard to incorporate with chickens. DH and I chose only chickens who are less smelly because they don't wallow in water and ponds and their egg laying is a bit more productive. We also cater to Hummingbirds, setting up feeders, because of their long tiring migrations every Spring and Fall.












seminolewind said:


> Sylvester, that fencing is great. I've recycled some of it for years. I always keep it when I take stuff down. I usually staple it up on posts where I don't really need strength, just enclosure.


The plastic netting was cheap enough and only as an experiment to see if it deters chickens from jumping and it seems to be working but it wobbles out of shape in the sun and by the time we take it down to put up the wire fencing I'm afraid the netting will be too wonky to roll up evenly -- we'll see if it can be salvaged.

The only place our mischievous Doms can jump over now is a 30-inches high gate so we have to engineer a way to add height to it without making it look too stupid -- we paid $$$ to make a nice gate and I'd hate to have to give it up. I had no idea 2 yrs ago the short decorative gate wouldn't be tall enough this year for 3 adventurous Dom pullets. Right now we're using a discarded old sliding screen door in front of the gate to keep out the jumping chickens until we fix the gate. We came home after dark last night and as DH went into the yard to close the coop one of the Doms was on the wrong side of the fence and came running to him to pick her up and put her into the coop. That's what I love about Doms -- they come running TO you to pick them up instead of running away FROM you. That'll teach her not to jump to the wrong side and get stuck outside the coop after dark -- yeah, RIGHT! LOL


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## chickenqueen

I love the vultures,too.Every time I have to kill a ****,possum or dog I feed the vultures.I also throw the fat from a beef brisket out to them.I like to watch them and I discovered they have a pecking order just like the chickens.


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## Sylvester017

I am so in love with my Cuckoo Breda -- she's made it to 2 yrs old and still walks around and forages like regal mannerly royalty, she's not pushy but not wimpy either. Such an elegant manner about her that other chicken breeds don't have (except maybe the stately feather-legged breeds like Brahma or Langshan). Has anyone ever had a flock with both Breda and Langshan together?

I was using the MyPoints Search engine to find Cuckoo Breda and was surprised to find my photo of our girl on the search engine images! She's our "cover girl" LOL!


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## boskelli1571

Sylvester017 said:


> I am so in love with my Cuckoo Breda -- she's made it to 2 yrs old and still walks around and forages like regal mannerly royalty, she's not pushy but not wimpy either. Such an elegant manner about her that other chicken breeds don't have (except maybe the stately feather-legged breeds like Brahma or Langshan). Has anyone ever had a flock with both Breda and Langshan together?
> 
> I was using the MyPoints Search engine to find Cuckoo Breda and was surprised to find my photo of our girl on the search engine images! She's our "cover girl" LOL!
> View attachment 29409


One of my blue Bredas' - Ms Blue has become very vocal lately. For the first year or so she has been quiet, didn't want to be touched, but now she is very vocal in the morning. She escorts me to the bird feeder where she has to have a handful of birdseed. In the evenings she now allows me to pick her up and put her to bed...must be mellowing I guess


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## Sylvester017

boskelli1571 said:


> One of my blue Bredas' - Ms Blue has become very vocal lately. For the first year or so she has been quiet, didn't want to be touched, but now she is very vocal in the morning. She escorts me to the bird feeder where she has to have a handful of birdseed. In the evenings she now allows me to pick her up and put her to bed...must be mellowing I guess


Yes, the Breda are a very lovely temperament besides being beautiful. It's funny you mentioned how Ms Blue has mellowed out in her maturity. I'm noticing the same thing with our Char -- she used to be skittish about coming up to us unless we had a tidbit in our fingers but she's getting bolder on her approaches (well, bolder for HER) toward approaching us humans. Maturity is one of the things I appreciate about chickens. Like little children which I have no patience towards, I no longer have patience for young chickens either LOL!

Rain was forecast for today but here it is 80 degrees outside? Oh well, I'm going outside to do gardening I was putting off for tomorrow!


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## seminole wind

boskelli1571 said:


> Well, I had a long overdue fight with some roosters yesterday. I had 3 boys in with the 8 pullets - way too many. I caught them gang raping a pullet so 2 went to the bachelor pad.
> The girls seem much happier and more relaxed now. The roo I left seems to be quite gentle with them, the others were quite aggressive.
> Peace reigns supreme


I have a bachelor pad with 4 silkie roos. Works well with them.


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