# How do I save my chicks?



## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

Hello! I have a batch of 14 (laid by my hens, hatched from an incubator) chicks, At the time of writing they are 4 weeks old and the day before yesterday I lost two of them all of a sudden. I observed bloody stool and lethargy in the others, so I immediately ruled it to be coccidiosis and gave them corid, electrolytes and antibotics in their water. At some point during the next night I felt it necessary to force-water and force feed some of them since they were just zombies. I lost another that night, and today they're all still here, but when I went to check on their weight I realised that some of them had very bloated crops. I noticed this earlier with one of the runts puking up a clear, whitish fluid, but I didn't think much of it until now for some reason. The bloated ones are the most ill and among them are three which I love dearly.

The real questions are:

Did I cause this?
How do I treat this?
Do you need any more information?
How does this happen when they eat medicated feed?
I tilted one of the bloated ones so he/she could puke. He/she puked a lot, more than I ever thought could fit in that crop. Not swollen anymore, but he/she still looks rather lame.


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

At this point I understand the crop "problem" is just a result of them drinking water but not eating food, as to be expected from coccidiosis-infected chickens. All the water they drink has a double dose of corid in it. It doesn't seem to be a miracle maker, they drink it and they still give me that wince-inducing red diarrhoea.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Stop the antibiotics. They'll interfere with the corrid. Reduce the corrid, double dosing can be toxic. You might have to treat them with vitamins after the double dose.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

What antibiotics are you giving them? If it's a sulfa drug, continue treatment. Do not give them any vitamins nor anything else that contains thiamine.


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

Fortunately I didn't lose any more. I replaced the water with nothing but diluted corid. The chick I mentioned earlier who I "puked" was in a more sorry state than I ever realized. When looking for treatment for what I initially identified as sour crop, you were supposed to massage the crop and coax it out. All I had to do was tilt him and water falls out... jesus christ. So I don't think he can hold down any water.


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

The chick had convulsions and died...


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

I'm sorry for your loss.


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

Is the neutralizing effect of the ****ty sav-a-chick packets so strong that it's as if they haven't been getting any medicine all this time? or is this the strongest strain of coccidia ever? Or are their digestive systems so ravaged at this point that even if they were rid of the disease tit wouldn't save them?

I thought that stuff would be the chicken equivalent of a flintones vitamin or chewable heart burn tablet...


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

Another chick died... this medicine is useless. All the ones that are dying are the ones with bloated crops, which I already ruled out wasn't sour crop, just all the water they were drinking. Do I need to prevent them from drinking water?


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

Please tell me there's something more I can do about this! There's no time to lose...


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

No, it was you throwing too much at them without knowing what was the right thing to do. They should have been put on the corid and the corid only until they recovered. And double doses are toxic. 

We'll help you in any way possible. Just let us know before you jump in with both feed. 

Corid is a thiamine blocker. Cocci needs thiamine to exist so removing that removes the cocci. But if you overdo the Corid it can make them thiamine deficient and would need high doses to correct that deficiency.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Put them on Corid, remove everything else. Watch them to see what happens. You can't keep throwing stuff at them without first seeing what is helping.


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

...


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

I kept the food because it was the only real sign of recovery, because infected chicks don't eat... if they eat, it gives me hope that they're surviving. If they weren't eating food since the day before halloween how would they still be alive at this point? Other advice I got were people giving direct doses, in my head you do that, and then keep them on the normal "preventative" amount afterwards so that disease re-entering their system can't thrive. The go-ahead for the double dose was a post on this forum where a user was concerned they put too much in, and the reply was that it's very hard to overwhelm a chicken's system with corid...
And different sources have different emphasis on the severity of coccidiosis. Some say it's easily treatable, but if i'm to trust this book that's on my desk, they're already probably dead by the point you see bloody diarrhoea.

I don't have a car to drive them to a faraway specialist vet to euthanize them and I don't have the money either... It would be different if this disease took all of them in the same day, I can have all my guilt in one go, "ripping the bandaid off" as I said. But like this... one of them dies every day and it's so terrible. Constantly in your face is the inevitability of it all and how it's all your fault.

There's also that intrusive feeling that you have to do _something,_ In your head, it's always what you're not doing. Not absolving myself of the responsibility, but hopefully you can understand _why_ I did those stupid things.

On the topic of actual medical advice and not me looking for grief counselling: would it be worth it for me to go and get thiamine tablets to dissolve and give them? What do you think the symptoms of a thyamine deficiency are?


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Slow down and stop. Take a deep breath. You're about to burst with concern and being overwhelmed by what is going on. It's OK. We can try to help you through this. 

Keep them on the corid, make sure they're drinking it. Feed them as you would normally do. If they don't look like their eating you can try making a wet mash of their food. 

It is hard to overdose them but they can be overdosed. Following the instructions on the bottle is the best and safest thing you can do.

Cocci is easily treatable. Blood in the stool isn't a good sign but it doesn't mean they're at death's door if they begin treatment right away.


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

Thank you. I assume if you had an answer for why some of their crops are so swollen, you'd tell me by now. My only speculation is that either they're just drinking a lot of water and it's normal (not normal because they're gurgling it up.) or their immune system is just nonfunctional at this point and it's blocked. I have no clue what to do about these ones because the problem isn't that they're not getting enough water.

I replaced the food with mash, diluted the corid, and put the asymptomatic ones (just 2, unfortunately) in their own brooder. There are three more that are active, preening their feathers, walking around eating, but still have bloody stool, but not overwhelmingly so. There are others that just **** blood and water and I have to fight the urge to disturb them too much.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

I realized what dawg was trying to tell you. He and I talked. If you can get Sulmet you might be in better place for curing the peeps. He said the strain your peeps has might not respond to corid. 

The biggest issue is that the government has made all the drugs we used to get unattainable except over the internet or through a vet. Now the vet. You might be able to get it from a local vet by taking a peep and a stool sample with you proving the cocci and not spend a ton of money. 

Again, no additions to anything. I don't know what is going on with the over drinking. It might be an after effect of the antibiotics.


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

I would like to say they're getting better. The chicks are far more active an energetic than they were two days ago, even some of the one that looked listless. They run around, get excited for treats, scratch and peck through their brooder, roost, and groom themselves. They're also scared of me again! always a good sign ^ ^ I still have two visibly sick chicks. They're in their own small brooder with a heat-only lamp so they can get plenty of rest and eat/drink without being pushed around by the others. I can only hold out for them. I can't stand to lose more chicks than I have already. The most heartbreaking loss for me was _Lefty_, a little guy with a seriously malformed eye. He hatched late and always got attention from me for being small and lame. I was always dreaming of seeing him as a great big rooster. Leaving that behind and starting a new bond with another chick is super hard.

What's next? These chickens, having survived corid should be immune now, right? or does that not count because they got medicine? Speaking of medicine: How long do I wait until I stop putting corid in their water? Do chickens ever fully recover from this?


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Yes, they do recover if they live. Yes, they can get it again and the meds are not the reason they can. It's just that chicks are so susceptible to cocci where adult systems can fight them off. 

It's been a while since I've had them. I'll holler for @dawg53 he'll know when to get them off corid.

As to losing the disabled chick, it probably would have happened without the cocci outbreak. Those born with defects quite often have other bad things going on that take them down in the short run.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Corid 9.6% liquid solution dosage is 2 teaspoons per gallon of water for 5 days, then 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of water for 7-14 days. This is for a severe outbreak of coccidiosis.
Disinfect incubators with ammonia, not bleach.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

If the Corid doesnt work, I recommend that you order Endocox and follow the directions on the package. Here's where you can buy it and I recommend expedited delivery.








Endocox Powder


Highly effective treatment against coccidiosis in pigeons and cage birds. How to use 1 teaspoon (5 grams) per 1 gallon of drinking water for 3 consecutive days. Repeat after 6 days if necessary. Change water daily. Contains: 2.5% Toltrazurl




allbirdproducts.com


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

I've been using dawn dish soap.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

You've been using Dawn dish soap for what? If it's for the incubator is not antibacterial. I don't care what the bottle says. Bleach is the only thing you should use to clean the bator with. 

If you're talking about the Endocox that dawg recommended that is to give the birds for another outbreak. You might as well have it on hand. Most of those things are good for a year beyond expiration date if it's stored in a climate controlled environment.


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

Look, i'm not _that_ clueless. I didn't force them to eat dawn dish soap lol. And yeah, i'll clean the brooder with bleach right away.

I'll get it, but I probably don't need it at this point. The chicks are all running around doing their usual thing again. I might get some sleep tonight.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees when we get all wound up. 😱 I've always told folks to step back and look at the big picture before jumping in and doing anything. You had the diagnosis but you panicked and was throwing the kitchen sink at them. If anything happens again, stop for a bit and think the situation through from start to finish. It's what first responders do when they come on an accident scene. It will serve you well through the years while you have the feathered ones. 

It's wonderful to read the peeps are all doing well now. And yes. Sleep. Sleep, knowing that they are fine and before you know it will be flying out of the brooder. 

And at some point, pics are always a welcomed sight. Especially of the babies.


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

uh oh... that message from dawg53 threw me for a loop. Here's why.








Which would mean i'd use 1/2 teaspoon per gallon? when their condition worsened I doubled the dose to 1 teaspoon. But dawg53 says 2 teaspoon per gallon... so my double dose should have been quadrupled? This is a headscratcher.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

it's too small for me to see the percentage. Reread what he said. I remember he said a percentage and the dose for that percentage. 

Corid does come in two different percentages. Why? Who knows. It just causes confusion.

Your peeps are probably fine. After they're done with the corid if you see that they appear weak or unsteady, give them B1 (thiamine). Corid is a thiamine blocker. Normally it's not a problem for the short time it's used but for overdoses it can lead to a deficiency that needs to be treated.


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

He said 9.6%, the bottle I bought is also 9.6%, so did I underdose them this whole time thinking I was giving them nuclear doses? If I can't get vitamins, what kind of food should I give them to help the more depressed ones? I love cooking for my chickens.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

From the sounds of things, what you gave them was good enough to clear them. 

You can get B1 in most pharmacy aisles. It may say B1 or thiamine. But if peeps seem fine, don't worry about it. They'll be OK, Mom, so you can relax until they find some other teenage thing to get into. 😁


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

Well, this concludes my horrible cocci outbreak. 9 out of 14 survived and it's still not clear whether I underdosed or overdosed them. The corid has been gradually diluted over time but they're still drinking some. These pictures aren't the best, but i'm reluctant to grab them out of the brooder for photos because I want them to like me.






















































They're a very colourful bunch. They came from 1 rooster and 3 different mothers, all easter eggers. I'm no expert on breeds but the rooster is a wheaten. Despite the large genepool, there's a a surprising amount of variation in colours (None of the mothers are black like an australorp.) I think the dark brown one is a rooster. I've looked at wheatens and only the roosters have that dark coloration and all the females are cream.

Besides the now-dead crippled chick, they're pretty much all terrified of me. I've heard before that frequent handling will socialise them, but with all the checking for pasting, cleaning their brooder, forcing them to drink, putting them in boxes so I could look at their stool for blood, and having to put them back in their brooder when they fly out, they dislike me more. I give them treats often, but it doesn't feel like they're expecting treats from me. They just go into treat mode when they suspect I have them. I'm asking because part of the point of raising babies is so they they can have a greater bond with you. They seem to be going down the path of my adult hens where they stay out of your way unless you have something for them. 

I've seen videos where the chicks follow their owners everywhere, fly onto their owners lap or shoulder and whatnot. No idea how you get that result. Maybe if you just have 1 or 2 you devote all your attention to? Is it a domino effect where if one chick of the batch is afraid, the rest will sense the danger? It's not like they have do any of that for me to like them, but being a vegetarian: I want people to come to my house and see a real bond between me and my chickens so that hopefully they think more on the sanctity of life and not see them as "stupid, simple animals" whose destiny is to be exploited.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

That's really great news. They all look bright eyed and healthy. 

I'll bet the one with red wings is also a male. It seems that's a telltale sign with many of the different birds. 

Color genetics is a tough one. Many times the color genetics hiding in the parents will pop out in the chicks. Since they're majority EEs there's a lot of color genetics in their backgrounds. 

For many of the birds it has to be their choice. They will get over all the unwanted attention at some point. Treats are how many train their birds to do the things you see them do. Breed also means a great deal. My little d'Uccle female and my Red Star were both lap chickens if they saw the hubs and I sitting on the porch. I had a couple of Silkies that were like puppies following me everywhere.


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

Ah I see. I had this dilemma before, where the chicks I like the most in terms of coloration and cute behaviour quirks may not be the ideal chicks in terms of sociability. The two in the green brooder are best friends, and both fly out of the brooder together to explore my room, they then run away from me because I'm tired of them pooping on my floor and want them to go back. I've also seen a chicken's personality change. My adult easter egger used to be the most cuddly, I went away for a week and she's the most weary of them all. At the same time, my barred rock likes to stay around me, and squats when I get near her, making easy to pick her up. It's all very strange.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

The squatting is submission. She's looking at you as the head of the flock. Plus she's ready to breed. 

They're all so different. You almost have to sit out there with them for hours most of the time to get them to be more like lap chickens. I never had the time to do that. The Silkies I mentioned just happened to like following me around. They were the only two out of the hundreds I had.

The d'Uccle and Red Star, they're people birds by breed. There are a few others out there.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Yep, your BR wants to be mated. As your birds get older, one or two, possibly more, will become more friendly with you, it always happens. Some might even hop up on your leg while you're sitting in a chair. You can bribe them to do that with treats, such as cracked corn or dried meal worms. Put the treats on your leg and call them, one or two will jump up to eat the treats. That's how you get them started. Keep in mind that chickens are walking stomachs.
Then you can try petting them, some will let you do that, some wont. Some may not want anything to do with you.
Strangely, they have personalities like people.


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## Faffywaffy (2 mo ago)

This threat was almost solved, but I have a related question about the chicks' integration into the adult flock. I built a small mobile run for them to have a space in the yard while my adult hens are out so they can get used to eachother. Like Robin said, adult hens frequently tangle with disease and i'm concerned about them contracting cocci again just because one of them pecked a hen dropping.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

I can't say it won't happen. It could. But you can't keep them indoors until they're adults either. 

Are they still on medicated chick feed? That should help protect them. Keep your corid handy just in case.


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