# What feed to use when?



## b_elms

I have 11 chicks that are about 11 weeks old. I still have them on grower. Should I keep them on this or time to change there feed? 


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## robin416

To make my life easier I just left mine on grower and offered calcium on the side as free choice. 

My oldest bird will be 9 in August.


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## hellofromtexas

18 weeks a lot of birds start to lay. But laying is very breed dependent.

So the common answer is when the birds start to lay switch to layer


most the fancy breeds take a while


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## robin416

hellofromtexas said:


> 18 weeks a lot of birds start to lay. But laying is very breed dependent.
> 
> So the common answer is when the birds start to lay switch to layer
> 
> most the fancy breeds take a while


The common answer does not mean its the only one or the absolute right one.

Too often people parrot what the old timers say never giving any thought to why? Is it the only choice? Or are there other options.

Think about it, for the small breeder the waste and money spent on three different feeds at one time. Grower for chicks, layer for hens and flock raiser for males.


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## Fiere

I feed grower, exclusively, as well. I buy a bit (or a bag) of chick starter for my babies first couple weeks and after that, it's onto the grower forever more. If I only had a laying flock and was never introducing new birds then maybe I'd do just layer, but I'd much rather the grower and offering the calcium so the hen can decide what she needs.


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## hellofromtexas

robin416 said:


> The common answer does not mean its the only one or the absolute right one.
> 
> Too often people parrot what the old timers say never giving any thought to why? Is it the only choice? Or are there other options.
> 
> Think about it, for the small breeder the waste and money spent on three different feeds at one time. Grower for chicks, layer for hens and flock raiser for males.


I know why and the reason for the common answer.

Layer is formulated with extra calcium. If the bird gets too much, it causes kidney and liver damage. If the bird gets too little it can lead to egg binding and low calcium levels (causes a wide range of problems to include seizures)

Grower is more expensive here so most try to switch as soon as possible and buy it in small 1-2 week batches. It would be about $30 dollars more of feed a year for a flock of 6.

Layer is fine when they are all laying but giving a time line can be wrong for some breeds like silkies which can have a 8 month timeframe.

So the continual grower is not cost efficient and most want to switch as soon as they can

However continual grower with a side of calcium is always a good answer for a mixed flock. They aren't all laying yet and roosters never do.

I'm not a parrot


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## Fiere

It's actually really cost effective here. It is cheaper for me to get grower than layer, and because I ferment feed I go through 2/3 of the same amount I would if fed dry. The calcium in laying feed is NOT adequate for all hens needs, and you still need to offer it on the side. All nutritional value in feed is a base amount. This is why it's important to have a full understanding of animal nutrition. Premade feeds are for human convenience, solely,me it chicken, horse, or dog.

And I am not saying everyone should make their own complete feed, as I sure as heck don't, but I understand how to feed, how to supplement, and most importantly, how to give the animal choice in the matter. Unlike humans, animals know what they need and will eat accordingly, it is up to us as their caretakers to offer them the correct things in order for them to have the best selection.


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## robin416

I have never had an egg bound hen. I've never had one die of kidney or liver failure. Females know how much calcium they need and will eat it without it being forced on them in their feed. It is not necessary to have it in their feed too. It is simply for the poultry owner's convenience. 

The kidney failure refers to males, not females. 

Not every where can feed be purchased in little bags. Most places feed is in 50# bags which equates waste when having to buy multiple 50# bags for five or six birds. It also means having the space to have multiple containers of different feeds. 

I raised show Silkies so I'm very familiar with their maturity ranges. It can be as little as four months or as much as one year.


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## hellofromtexas

robin416 said:


> I have never had an egg bound hen. I've never had one die of kidney or liver failure. Females know how much calcium they need and will eat it without it being forced on them in their feed. It is not necessary to have it in their feed too. It is simply for the poultry owner's convenience.
> 
> The kidney failure refers to males, not females.
> 
> Not every where can feed be purchased in little bags. Most places feed is in 50# bags which equates waste when having to buy multiple 50# bags for five or six birds. It also means having the space to have multiple containers of different feeds.
> 
> I raised show Silkies so I'm very familiar with their maturity ranges. It can be as little as four months or as much as one year.


My cousins luck is around 8 months for her silkies and that's where my numbers are coming from. The longest I've heard is 14 months.

No, females can have renal failure if given the wrong feed too soon. Also cousin's luck with a female silky. She followed a "parrot" that gave some bad advice. They gave a number with out reason. So they weren't laying and getting layer.

The renal failure and kidney stones is caused by too much calcium and the kidneys trying too hard to get rid of it. The calcium can crystallize which forms the stones

Egg binding/hypocalcemia can happen when the calcium supplement isn't palatable or not given at all.

Males and females have the same need for calcium starting out. However, this need increases when females start laying

I enjoy paying less for my convenience lol. I also enjoy my small ma and pa feed store that sells by the pound.


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## Fiere

hellofromtexas said:


> I enjoy paying less for my convenience lol.


This is the bane of the food industry as a whole, for humans and animals kept by humans. What is easiest is not usually the best, and we suffer for it. 
Just cause a dog survives on kibbles and bits, a bird on ground corn and soy, and a human of mcdonalds, does NOT mean that it's healthy.

I raise hundreds of birds a year, trust me, I am all about cheap and convenient. And convenience to me is not having birds with poor health, and poor marketability. Every bird not breeding, laying, or gaining weight to it's full capacity is costing me money. Every sick bird is taxing on my time and finances. Inevitably, it is cheaper and more convenient for me to feed the best quality I can get, with the supplementation they require, than to lose production or birds because I didn't want to out the effort in.


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## hellofromtexas

Fiere said:


> This is the bane of the food industry as a whole, for humans and animals kept by humans. What is easiest is not usually the best, and we suffer for it.
> Just cause a dog survives on kibbles and bits, a bird on ground corn and soy, and a human of mcdonalds, does NOT mean that it's healthy.
> 
> I raise hundreds of birds a year, trust me, I am all about cheap and convenient. And convenience to me is not having birds with poor health, and poor marketability. Every bird not breeding, laying, or gaining weight to it's full capacity is costing me money. Every sick bird is taxing on my time and finances. Inevitably, it is cheaper and more convenient for me to feed the best quality I can get, with the supplementation they require, than to lose production or birds because I didn't want to out the effort in.


The calcium in the feed is oyster shell. It adds 2.5% calcium. I buy a nice semi local feed that is non gmo and non soy. It has a nice reputation in the area. I try to avoid the "mcdonald's" feed. But the grower does cost more unless I got the cheap grower.

I also have an oyster shell dish for them


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## Fiere

Is there animal or vegetable protein in the feed? What percentage is corn? What are the other ingredients added to the feed to make it "feed"? How old is the feed? 
There's more to feed than whether or not it's GMO/Organic/non-soy ect.


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## hellofromtexas

Fiere said:


> Is there animal or vegetable protein in the feed? What percentage is corn? What are the other ingredients added to the feed to make it "feed"? How old is the feed?
> There's more to feed than whether or not it's GMO/Organic/non-soy ect.


Well it's protein is fish but it does have veggies too. Corn is towards the bottom. The nutrition percentages seem right and the ingredients seem right for chickens.

And the feed since it is sold in small batches and fairly local, It's pretty fresh. They go thru the bags daily


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## robin416

I have a medical background, so I completely understand what causes kidney and liver issues in humans and birds and dogs and cats. You've got a ways to go to completely understand just what is going on in their bodies when it comes to nutrition and supplements.

And you just proved my point about using grower exclusively for all ages. No concerns over feeding more calcium to any bird that does not need it.


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## hellofromtexas

robin416 said:


> I have a medical background, so I completely understand what causes kidney and liver issues in humans and birds and dogs and cats. You've got a ways to go to completely understand just what is going on in their bodies when it comes to nutrition and supplements.
> 
> And you just proved my point about using grower exclusively for all ages. No concerns over feeding more calcium to any bird that does not need it.


I didn't recommend otherwise.

I just said is wasn't cost effective here.

I'm an animal science major and a former army medic. I have 10 years of experience in the medical field.

Feed cost conversion, layer is more economical when they are all laying


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## Fiere

Not just age but time of year, breed, and even then, hen. My polish are lucky if they will lay 150 eggs a year for their first year, my production hens lay 300. Some of my barred rocks are production bred, some are show bred, so their laying is off by 50-100 eggs each. 
During molt, I'd have to change feed again, during breeding, I'd have to change feed again, during winter, again. Grower is the correct answer, and I recommend it to anybody because birds are so flexible! Far more convenient to feed one type, straight on through. 

If you are already putting out calcium and only buying feed in small batches, is the extra few cents really going to put you in the poor house? Summer is a coming, meat birds will be here, that's over 200 birds kicking around. Can't get any cheaper or convenient than feeding 3 chickens, even if you were making their meals on the stove.


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## b_elms

Every one thanks so much for the help. I hope we are all getting along. You guys have given me so much to think about and all where such a good a big help. 


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## hellofromtexas

b_elms said:


> Every one thanks so much for the help. I hope we are all getting along. You guys have given me so much to think about and all where such a good a big help.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Chicken Forum


I think we are getting along. At least I hope. Most of us are friends. Actually I think we are arguing the same points. I think we have different quality control standards on feed but oh well. Just don't go for the cheapest option and make sure it's a healthy balanced feed.

Just be sure you don't feed layer too soon being after all start laying and make sure there is a free source of calcium. It makes life easy.

Grower thru out is fine but make sure it is cost effective to do so. Grower is better for a mixed flock


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## Fiere

Again, grower is not just best for a mixed flock.

As this is your first time keeping chickens yourself, hellofromtexas, you still have much to learn with how a bird's nutritional needs change based on age, sex, breed, and season. 

To explain again: When a bird is laying daily, they need more calcium than a layer feed can provide. If you've a hen who only lays 2-3 times a week, obviously do not need that same intake. A bird going through molt will not be laying at all, and require much more protein than is provided in a laying feed. In the winter, the birds will be laying less yet eating more, so your laying feed will not be adequate again. Each bird is an individual. A bird can survive on just layer without apparent issue, however, as stated, it is not the best method and you will feel the losses at the other end: quality in, quality out. I used to do it the way you preach as well, as it was what was always done. Then I learned a better way that was healthier for my birds and I have adopted it.

The best method of feeding for most people and most birds is one that takes the guess work out of it all, while still providing nutrition levels adequate for good flock management. Thus, a quality grower feed (made with animal protein if it can be sourced), offered year round to give the birds their basic nutritional needs. In winter, offer some scratch grains in addition to the regular feed ration to help stoke those internal furnaces and keep the birds warm and in peak form. During molt, you must supplement the birds with protein to help them regrow those fancy new feathers (I personally toss a few cups of a moistened dry catfood into their daily ration which works well). Always offer free choice unregulated calcium and fresh clean drinking water. Treats of garden vegetables and kitchen scraps are a welcome addition and gives the birds variety if they are not free ranging. Also, a bit of grit tossed onto the ground of their run is important, especially if you live in an area with snow. Birds use the grit to grind their food as they don't have teeth, and if the bird doesn't have access to small pebbles, they will need to be supplemented with it. 
**Even if you feed layer straight through, these adjustments still need to be made, just remember calcium levels will be too high at points which can cause undue health issues**

As for cost dictating your choice: Each brand of feed carries your basic starter, grower and layer all at comparable price points. If it is more expensive to buy grower over layer, it would only be a couple dollars more. Thus, "cost effectiveness" is not really an issue unless you're feeding very large numbers of birds. Here, the cheapest type of feed and the most expensive type within the same brand differentiate by less than 3$. I think starter is 38ish and grower is 36ish, layer and scratch are both 37ish. By hellofromtexas's above mentioned math, feeding her flock of 3 birds would cost her an additional 1.25$ a month to feed grower to rather than layer. As you can see, B_Elms, the cost for a small flock is hardly noticeable, even if the feed happens to cost a couple dollars more. 

Anyway, I really don't care what anyone feeds their birds, but I do hope everyone makes the best choice for their flock's health, and weighs every option, instead of just going by what ever they were told was common. Feeding nothing but stale bread and a bit of corn was also a common practice. But as we learn better, we know better, and we do better!


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## LittleWings

$38 for a bag of feed? Wow. It's $14.50 here. (Houston) I use grower for my whole flock, when its available. It is about the same price as layer here. I feed it to day old chicks and adults. If they don't have grower, I buy layer. I have oyster shell on the side. 
I also ferment so it makes it easier to only have one bucket for mixing. I was using nonmedicated starter for chicks and making separate batches, but it is harder to find than grower. Using grower only, has simplified things tremendously. I use about 250 lb a month.


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## robin416

LittleWings said:


> $38 for a bag of feed? Wow. It's $14.50 here. (Houston) I use grower for my whole flock, when its available. It is about the same price as layer here. I feed it to day old chicks and adults. If they don't have grower, I buy layer. I have oyster shell on the side.
> I also ferment so it makes it easier to only have one bucket for mixing. I was using nonmedicated starter for chicks and making separate batches, but it is harder to find than grower. Using grower only, has simplified things tremendously. I use about 250 lb a month.


Not long before I got out I was buying 700 pounds a month. Can you imagine the nightmare having that many birds and having them on three different feeds?

I quit using medicated chick feed years back. Kept seeing complaints that chicks had cocci even though they were on medicated feed. I just kept Corrid on hand for just in case.


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## b_elms

The over all cost is not an issue. But making sure I am doing the best possible for my birds. I have two coops now. One for our young birds and one for our hens that just started laying. I let them all free range. I keep the doors open to both coops and have a small dish with oyster shells and I let all birds go in to what ever coop to eat what ever food they want. We also give them scraps from the garden. I was just a little worried that the younger ones eating lay mash might hurt them. I like the idea of the cat food! Great idea!! Also great info on the feed for different times of year. And when the are molting. Never really gave it much thought! :/ but it all makes great sense!  


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## Fiere

I should have specified, those are for the honking bags, Little Wings! I don't know what the poundage is, but for 25kg bags you are paying the 16-18$ range, I get the 55lb bags as they're a bit cheaper per pound and I use a lot of feed. 

Glad I could help, B_Elms!


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## LittleWings

The last time I went they were out of grower and layer was $14.50 for 50 lbs. Three weeks before that I bought grower for $16 for 50 lb.
If it is a little higher, I don't mind. I would rather give the grower. I have some nice roosters and I would rather them not have the extra calcium.


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## b_elms

I am paying about the same here in AZ for a 50lb bag. It's not that bad. And when I have to go to New Mexico for work I can even get cheaper! 


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## b_elms

What brand is it that you guys buy? 


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## robin416

LittleWings said:


> The last time I went they were out of grower and layer was $14.50 for 50 lbs. Three weeks before that I bought grower for $16 for 50 lb.
> If it is a little higher, I don't mind. I would rather give the grower. I have some nice roosters and I would rather them not have the extra calcium.


The difference could very well be the protein percentage. I feed mine a locally milled crumble with animal protein, which makes it more expensive at 16 a bag. But the layer from the same mill is less but is lower in protein and . . . Well, I was going to say it didn't include animal protein but I'm not sure about that.


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## robin416

b_elms said:


> What brand is it that you guys buy?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Chicken Forum


If you can find locally milled feed either direct from the mill or a feed store that stocks it that is about the best solution. I will also tell you it can be quite frustrating trying to find it but so worth it.

Next, know your feed store. Know that they obsess over the age of the feed. That they want it off their shelves before its a month old. Know how they store it.


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## Fiere

Oh my god I can't type today, and I'm confusing myself and everyone else! 

The feed store sells the 25kg bags and the 40kg bags. So that's 55lb and 88lbs, respectively. 

I pay 16-18$ for a 55lb bag, and 36-38$ for an 88lb bag. There we go.


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## robin416

Fiere said:


> Oh my god I can't type today, and I'm confusing myself and everyone else!
> 
> The feed store sells the 25kg bags and the 40kg bags. So that's 55lb and 88lbs, respectively.
> 
> I pay 16-18$ for a 55lb bag, and 36-38$ for an 88lb bag. There we go.


LOL I imagine switching between two country's ways of weights and measures doesn't add any to making it easy.

88 pounds? Even as a young woman my max was 70 pounds and that was really maxing me out. 50 these days has become work out now too.


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## Fiere

robin416 said:


> LOL I imagine switching between two country's ways of weights and measures doesn't add any to making it easy.
> 
> 88 pounds? Even as a young woman my max was 70 pounds and that was really maxing me out. 50 these days has become work out now too.


The worst is that as we talk about weight, we use pounds, then when we go to buy something, it's in kg, so it's really not an effective system. The government might have switched over to metric but the laymans people sure didn't. For instance I have no idea how much I weigh in kg without doing math, but I also don't know how much a 40kg bag of feed is in lbs without converting it LOL the sizes are what they are and that is all it is!

If the bag is in the truck I can pick it up and distribute it over my shoulder alright, if it's slumped on the ground, it's staying there till hubby comes. I can carry the weight easily enough to where it needs to go but I physically can't pick it up and put it on my shoulder. It's almost 2/3 my weight lol


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## LittleWings

Wow 88lb IS honking! They dont sell those here thank goodness, I don't think my old back is up to much of that.

I us M-G feed. It is milled just west of Houston in Weimer. The grower is 18% animal protein and the layer is 18% plant protein. Then I ferment it and that raises the protein to 25ish.


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## Fiere

I rather the big bags. I have a big Rubbermaid trash bin with a locking top that holds one bag perfectly but won't hold two small bags so it completely messes up my system!


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## hellofromtexas

I buy a local layer feed that cost me roughly $16 a month for 20 lbs. I don't know how much a 50 lb bag cost but it's probably a little cheaper. It's non gmo and soy free with minimal corn 18% protein animal and plant with 3%-4% calcium. The numbers match my purposes. The hens find it very palatable and it's well reviewed in the area.

The eggs taste better than my cousin's who is using a feed I dislike the numbers on.

Laying birds love calcium tho, So I have free choice oysters shells. I also toss some mealworms here and there and it keeps them happy


I recommend going to the local feed store and asking around. There will be a popular choice or 2 in an area. The more fresh it is, the better. It's like fresh bread vs stale bread.

Farming has been in my family for a while. I go for feed conversion numbers (product in relation to feed), bird health and efficiency.

I buy small batches because I have spine issues.


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## ifyousaygo

Can someone link me to more info on fermenting feed?


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## LittleWings

Here's one.
http://www.chickenforum.com/showthread.php?t=5523


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## hellofromtexas

ifyousaygo said:


> Can someone link me to more info on fermenting feed?


I think this is little wings expertise.


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## Fiere

I won't add anything as that thread gives all the info you need. 

I will say what works for me as far at the system (others probably do it the same way). When I ferment my feed, I have two fermenting buckets, so instead of adding in what I take out and immediately taking it back, I alternate buckets each day, topping up at the end of the day, so each bucket gets a good 24/h rest period to ferment the new stuff. 
I feed in 3 gallon rubber feed pans morning and night, as they can't knock them over attacking the feed and it allows lots of birds to eat at once. I have also seen people use a length of old gutter put on wooden brackets as a trough. I will probably be implementing that system for my meat birds this year.


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## b_elms

What's the water to feed ratio to make your fermented feed? Any one know?


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## LittleWings

Its not really a ratio. Just put the amount of feed you need in your container and add water until it covers the feed. Mix it like runny oatmeal at first. As the feed absorbs the water, it will swell up and get thicker. No ratio, just a little practice to get it the consistency you prefer. It doesn't have to be soupy to ferment. I like it on the dry side myself. If it is too soupy, it gets in their beards and they pick each others feathers out.


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## b_elms

Ok. Great! I'll give that a try! Thanks.


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