# Soybean Only Diet



## Barend (Aug 21, 2020)

Hi, So I'm in possession of a lot of cheap and bulk soybean meal, and want to know if I could somehow use it as a bulk substitute (Like 50%+) for my feed instead of maize. 

Will it be a problem having such high protein meal as a bulk. Is there a way around it, and could you please elaborate on how it can be done? I understand Ammonia is going to be a problem, but cleaning regularly is not a problem.

Please note that I'm looking for performance objectives of at least 1.8 or 1.9kg (4.1 or 4.2lbs) at day 35

I do plan to supplement my feed with Lysine, vitamins and a probiotic/growth enhancer.

if you could help me with a proper feed formulation to make up for the deficiencies i'd really appreciate it! Peace


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

I'm going to send this to a friend of the forum. He's about the best one I know of when it comes to doing something like you want to do.

BTW, it would help to know if you're in the states. Using the term maize sort of says you may not be and that can play into what he tells you.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

Aaack, at 50% it has the chance to burn them. I would round it down a bit, and yes definitely the probiotics etcetera. Also, you don't want to feed predominantly corn or maize another common issue which yields chickens which fail to thrive. How about a diet of about 16, 17 percent and some soy meal as free choice in the run? And even then you've got to monitor feathers for too much protein.


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## Barend (Aug 21, 2020)

robin416 said:


> I'm going to send this to a friend of the forum. He's about the best one I know of when it comes to doing something like you want to do.
> 
> BTW, it would help to know if you're in the states. Using the term maize sort of says you may not be and that can play into what he tells you.


Hi, yeah, I'm not in the States, I'm referring to yellow cornmeal if it'd make more sense ^_^ Kind Regards. Thanks a lot for the help!



Poultry Judge said:


> Aaack, at 50% it has the chance to burn them. I would round it down a bit, and yes definitely the probiotics etcetera. Also, you don't want to feed predominantly corn or maize another common issue which yields chickens which fail to thrive. How about a diet of about 16, 17 percent and some soy meal as free choice in the run? And even then you've got to monitor feathers for too much protein.


I have come across diets of at least 30% soybean meal in starters and growers online, so people have had relatively high inclusions of it in the past. Thing is, it's about cost saving to me, as I can come across the soybean meal much cheaper than cornmeal believe it or not.. Thanks for the input around burning them, I definitely DON'T want that to happen..

Here is an article of 1966 which had relative success with high protein inclusions - but it is ridiculously outdated unfortunately. dropping 10% of gain isn't really a problem since the cost outweighs the 100 grams at 35 days of age

*The Effects of Feeding High Protein Diets to Chickens*


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

As I read I see that they found better gain by reducing protein and that did land closer to what is believed today. I've always had mine on 20% protein and saw very good development. 

Your challenge is going to be knowing how much is going to be enough but not too much.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

For hobby and farm birds we still aim for a balanced diet of 16 percent for chickens and 17 for game birds. I live in Ohio, corn and soy are cheap and they, (some farmers), push both pretty hard for the meat birds. You can get fast growth and weight gain but diets high in either are not good. Everyone does things differently, but I would implement a regular diet and then offer some soy, free choice, in the run. I apologize ahead of time for the next part wherein I rant about the U.S. commercial meat industry. There is a large contract commercial chicken farm three miles from my house. I've been in there, I've seen the birds, it's worse than the terrible stories you see on television. They don't allow photographs. The name is very famous in the States here, their chicken brand is in every supermarket meat case. The birds are divided into four batches of 3000 and they average 140 dead chickens per batch every single day which are ground up for commercial fertilizer. This is considered an acceptable loss because they grow them so quickly with antibiotics, hormones, corn, soy and some other commercial mash ingredients. This year with Covid, they have experienced interruptions in truck deliveries of feed ingredients of up to five days. This has happened twice that I know of. When commercial chickens in close quarters don't eat for five days, they eat each other. The Department of Agriculture and USDA inspectors are out there on a regular basis and I guess this makes it all okay in the American commercial meat industry.


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## Barend (Aug 21, 2020)

robin416 said:


> As I read I see that they found better gain by reducing protein and that did land closer to what is believed today. I've always had mine on 20% protein and saw very good development.
> 
> Your challenge is going to be knowing how much is going to be enough but not too much.


Totally, the question is what is to too much protein/the maximum I can use - If I could figure this out it would make my life much easier, but I don't want to run trails like these if the information is already out there...



Poultry Judge said:


> For hobby and farm birds we still aim for a balanced diet of 16 percent for chickens and 17 for game birds. I live in Ohio, corn and soy are cheap and they, (some farmers), push both pretty hard for the meat birds. You can get fast growth and weight gain but diets high in either are not good. Everyone does things differently, but I would implement a regular diet and then offer some soy, free choice, in the run. I apologize ahead of time for the next part wherein I rant about the U.S. commercial meat industry. There is a large contract commercial chicken farm three miles from my house. I've been in there, I've seen the birds, it's worse than the terrible stories you see on television. They don't allow photographs. The name is very famous in the States here, their chicken brand is in every supermarket meat case. The birds are divided into four batches of 3000 and they average 140 dead chickens per batch every single day which are ground up for commercial fertilizer. This is considered an acceptable loss because they grow them so quickly with antibiotics, hormones, corn, soy and some other commercial mash ingredients. This year with Covid, they have experienced interruptions in truck deliveries of feed ingredients of up to five days. This has happened twice that I know of. When commercial chickens in close quarters don't eat for five days, they eat each other. The Department of Agriculture and USDA inspectors are out there on a regular basis and I guess this makes it all okay in the American commercial meat industry.


Yeah man, those things are rough, luckily I try to make the best out of my chickens and give them proper room and treatment. Thanks for the reply!


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Do you have something in your country like we have here that are government Agriculture docs and scientists? That would be a really good resource and they might have more local knowledge than we would have here on the blend you should use and still be safe for your birds.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

I think Purina has sixty or seventy feed scientists, and they take questions from consumers. You might ask about supplementing with soy and how much.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Barend isn't from the states so wherever he/she is things could be a world away from what we're used to.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

Maybe contact one of the feed manufacturers in your country. We are always telling the 4H and FFA students here to email their project questions to the commercial experts and they almost always get friendly advice and information.


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## Barend (Aug 21, 2020)

Poultry Judge said:


> Maybe contact one of the feed manufacturers in your country. We are always telling the 4H and FFA students here to email their project questions to the commercial experts and they almost always get friendly advice and information.


Yeah I think this is going to be my next option, I am from South Africa so I'll try to contact some food manufacturers around here, It's not always easy to get the right people to talk to, but I'm gonna try my best. I was hoping to get my answer here, but when I get it I'll be sure to notify you guys! Kind Regards


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## Barend (Aug 21, 2020)

robin416 said:


> Do you have something in your country like we have here that are government Agriculture docs and scientists? That would be a really good resource and they might have more local knowledge than we would have here on the blend you should use and still be safe for your birds.


Unfortunately most agricultural information will probably be private, we don't have such a competent government haha


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

That certainly make it more of a challenge trying to get the safe information you need. 

Something keep in mind, sometimes the cheapest form of feed isn't worth the time and extra effort it takes to find the information and then put that information to use.


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## Barend (Aug 21, 2020)

robin416 said:


> That certainly make it more of a challenge trying to get the safe information you need.
> 
> Something keep in mind, sometimes the cheapest form of feed isn't worth the time and extra effort it takes to find the information and then put that information to use.


I understand, but I only want to use it as a bulk ingredient, I'll probably still add premix/vitamins and lysine to it.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

And if it leads to serious physical issues for your birds or even death? 

Unless you can find someone who can tell you how much of each ingredient you need you're risking exploding what you're trying to do.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

I apologize in advance that these may not be the answers you are looking for, but what Robin says is true. My family owned a sawmill and feed mill, we used to mix poultry feed. However in good conscience, we never mixed a feed where any single ingredient was either predominantly soy or corn/maize. As wonderful as soy is, it's too much protein and corn is empty calories filler. Do you have the equivalent of a Farm Bureau? Perhaps they could help with a formulation which would be healthy for your birds.


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## Nm156 (May 16, 2015)

If you're doing meatbirds the protein needs to be around 24%.Methionine is the most important amino acid required for muscle development .


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## Nm156 (May 16, 2015)

If the soybean meal is 50% and the corn is 7% protein, You would use 40 lbs of Soybean meal and 60 lbs of corn.The formula for the vitamins and amino acid profile would depend on what pre-mix or raw ingredients that are being used.


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## Nm156 (May 16, 2015)

Corn provides carbohydrates ,while it's low in protein it is not a filler.If fed as an only source then it might be considered a filler.All ingredients have a purpose.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Thank you, NM. You're the only person I know who understands how to formulate feed.


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## Barend (Aug 21, 2020)

Nm156 said:


> If the soybean meal is 50% and the corn is 7% protein, You would use 40 lbs of Soybean meal and 60 lbs of corn.The formula for the vitamins and amino acid profile would depend on what pre-mix or raw ingredients that are being used.





Nm156 said:


> Corn provides carbohydrates ,while it's low in protein it is not a filler.If fed as an only source then it might be considered a filler.All ingredients have a purpose.


Great, thanks for the reply mate! So you believe that, as long as I have the necessary vitamins (including methionine), I should safely be able to add around 40% soybean meal and 60% corn - assuming my protein is around 24% and my energy is around 3100 kcal ME/kg mixed together?


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## Barend (Aug 21, 2020)

Nm156 said:


> If the soybean meal is 50% and the corn is 7% protein, You would use 40 lbs of Soybean meal and 60 lbs of corn.The formula for the vitamins and amino acid profile would depend on what pre-mix or raw ingredients that are being used.


Also, I understand that the birds need different protein/energy content at different phases of life (Starter, Grower, Finisher) - Now, you look like you know your way around feed formulation - Do you think a "one size fits all" approach is gonna damage my performance too much or do you think the 24% protein will be fine for the small and mature birds - Kind Regards

Aiming for a 35 day performance of 1.8-2 kgs (4-4.4lbs)


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## Barend (Aug 21, 2020)

robin416 said:


> And if it leads to serious physical issues for your birds or even death?
> 
> Unless you can find someone who can tell you how much of each ingredient you need you're risking exploding what you're trying to do.


Thanks for the concern mate, I understand it's a bit out of the box formulation - which is why I'm asking here first ^_^ I plan to be responsible and figure out everything before even formulating any feed. Kind Regards


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## Nm156 (May 16, 2015)

I


Barend said:


> Also, I understand that the birds need different protein/energy content at different phases of life (Starter, Grower, Finisher) - Now, you look like you know your way around feed formulation - Do you think a "one size fits all" approach is gonna damage my performance too much or do you think the 24% protein will be fine for the small and mature birds - Kind Regards
> 
> Aiming for a 35 day performance of 1.8-2 kgs (4-4.4lbs)


If you're going to process them at 35 days,there really isn't a need to have a starter,grower and finish formula.Just a starter type ration for the whole 35 days. Are you trying to do commercial or just for personal?


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

Yes, they are ingredients, that's for sure, ubiquitous and inescapable. I live in rural Ohio, a veritable sea of GMO soy and corn. Every hobby chicken person needs to do their own research and draw their own conclusions regarding appropriate nutrition for their flock. Commercial? That's another whole, (pick your applicable colloquial speech). But consider this, for the past four million years, the ancestors of our birds ate an omnivorous free ranging diet. This only came to include "modern" grains during the past several hundred years. So while these ingredients are pretty much inescapable unless you get your feed custom mixed, they historically were not part of the aviculture.


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## Barend (Aug 21, 2020)

Nm156 said:


> I
> 
> If you're going to process them at 35 days,there really isn't a need to have a starter,grower and finish formula.Just a starter type ration for the whole 35 days. Are you trying to do commercial or just for personal?


I'm small-scale commercial - trying to do about 100-200 birds a cycle.

Here is a typical screenshot of what they do in SA.

0-10 starter
11-24 grower and so on








source: Avigen


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

Okay commercial, makes more sense then. Most of the folks here are hobbyists. Hope you don't have all the GMO feed grains we do! What grains do you have access to besides the soy and corn? Another additional adjunct might be appropriate for your application. You would calculate the protein the same way. Also do you soak/ferment your grain, it will up absorption?


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## Barend (Aug 21, 2020)

Poultry Judge said:


> Okay commercial, makes more sense then. Most of the folks here are hobbyists. Hope you don't have all the GMO feed grains we do! What grains do you have access to besides the soy and corn? Another additional adjunct might be appropriate for your application. You would calculate the protein the same way. Also do you soak/ferment your grain, it will up absorption?


Uhm, If by GMO you mean it can't grow then most of our grains are GMO unfortunately, yellow maize/corn is the staple here - you probably do get stuff like sorghum and wheat, but just won't be profitable if I buy that. The Free State Province here mainly does corn

Soaking and Fermenting is something I haven't tried yet, I'll give it a read if I have some time, thanks for the tip!


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

It's worth the research and might be a practical application for your birds. You may have to scale it up a bit and you may need a feed mixer. I have a couple, one is a three point tractor driven cement mixer I rehabbed for feed.


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## Barend (Aug 21, 2020)

Poultry Judge said:


> It's worth the research and might be a practical application for your birds. You may have to scale it up a bit and you may need a feed mixer. I have a couple, one is a three point tractor driven cement mixer I rehabbed for feed.


Haha I hear you man - I actually have a cement mixer which I'm planning on using legit, reading the fact that you have success with it makes me happy.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

For small scale they work great wet or dry. Then you can dump into a wheelbarrow. My actual small feed mixer has a vertical auger and you have to do a lot of bending and lifting with it.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

By GMO, I meant genetically modified seed which is a touchy subject with some folks here in the States. Some folks are against the genetically modified part and some folks are against the fact that Monsanto has a near monopoly on the seed that farmers can purchase.


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## Frank Alvarez (Oct 3, 2019)

What is the problem with GMO strains?


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

I think it's more the fact that one company is controlling all of the seed that farmers can plant.

Plus you can't replant seed from GMO's because the plant won't grow true if it germinates or produces fruit or seed at all.

And how the heck are you Frank? It's been a while.


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## Poultry Judge (Jul 15, 2020)

A lot of the farmers here in Ohio feel it has become very politicized. As Robin said, they, (Monsanto), have engineered the germination etc. so you have to buy the new seed from them, (a near monopoly), and the Roundup resistance keeps evolving.


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## Nm156 (May 16, 2015)

Starting to sound like a thread from BYC.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Nm156 said:


> Starting to sound like a thread from BYC.


In what way?


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