# anyone successfully raise free range/feral with no coop?



## fallen4shell

Everyone I talk to seems to think it just can't be done...or at least they come up with about a hundred reasons why it can't possibly work. Basically what I am wanting is simply a localized flock of feral chickens. I know Chickens still exist in the wild (see Red Jungle Fowl) and I know of several instances where chickens have been neglected or abandoned and simply start fending for themselves and go "feral". So has anyone intentionally introduced a flock to a given area in hopes that they go feral?


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## robin416

First, you could be breaking laws by doing that.

My neighbor has allowed her chickens to go wherever they want. Because of that I'm unable to allow mine to free range. I also found one of her chickens dead just outside my chickens' pen one morning. It evidently had tried to get in to my birds to escape the predator that killed her.

It might be a nifty thing to you but for those of us that end up dealing with it, not so nifty.


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## powderhogg01

it is going to be illegal in nearly any state. Even with native game birds, there are strict laws in place. I would not do this as it will not likely do any good to the local environment. just raise your chickens in a free range nature.


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## fallen4shell

Wow, that's encouraging. Thanks. Anyone else? Maybe someone a little less condescending? For the record: I have no neighbors for miles and am breaking no chicken laws that I am aware of.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my original post: I am really NOT INTERESTED in a hundred additional reasons why I can't or shouldn't release chickens into the wild, I am asking for feedback from those who have chickens that have (intentionally or not) "flown the coop" and decided to roost elsewhere and how they did it. I know these stories exist, you don't have to be afraid to share them ANYMORE! Let the revolution begin! Down with oppressive government chicken laws! Let the chickens be FREE! 


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## wclee

I "raised" chickens completely free of human assistance for most of my life. The only thing I provided was a small open sided shed with nest boxes in them if I got eggs fine if I didn't fine. I lost chickens sure but overall they did fine I averaged a flock of around 75 birds they were on their on from day one. I have only recently started keeping chickens in a coop. 


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## wclee

I also live in a farming community we all have cows, goats, sheep, hogs, ect.... The chickens main job was and still is pest control. It's just the norm here. With all this being said we always kept a few hens a bit tamer for fresh eggs. 


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## fallen4shell

Thank you, wclee! Thats great to hear! Did most of your chickens choose to roost in the shed you provided or did they find their own preferred places? 


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## wclee

I would say it was usually top of the pecking order got the shed the rest were in the pecan and hickory trees. Did have one hen that liked the top of my Ac window unit. My wife's favorite thing with the chickens was when we mowed they would follow the mower eating anything that jumped, flew or just plain caught their eye. 


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## fallen4shell

*lol* That's awesome. Did the roosters seem to hold their own pretty well against predators? I am particularly curious about how well they defended against owls and hawks and such when roosting in trees. My flock (two birds so far) seem to have set up camp underneath a brush pile in a well fortified cubby between two boulders. So far they seem to be surviving. I want to get some more birds though to increase the buffer in the inevitable event that I lose some. 

Also, I am interested in how well they incubated their own young and how they managed to protect the chicks from predators.


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## wclee

I would say over all they did good would loose the odd hen here and there to hawks, coyotes got a few cocky roosters. They did great brooding during the summer seemed like every time you turned around there was more chicks. We mainly always had American game chickens so they pretty well hold their on. On a side not the roosters have messed up more than one new coat of paint on a car. He could see his self and decided to have all out war. 


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## hellofromtexas

I would do 3 things before attempting this..

Check your local laws
See if you are in an area with a high predator population and what are they
Try to find a fast flighty bird

I think you could get away with this during the day but not at night. 

The word "neglect" or "abandon" I'm assuming is just poor wording choices. All animals require a minimal amount of care. You may have to provide a minimal amount of food and supplements to keep them healthy but they get most their food from foraging. 

This is very breed dependent however. Unfortunately, I avoid flighty breeds so this would not be my forte.

You will probably have losses due to predators. Most of my friends that free range has a least 2 out of 40 die a year due to a hawk free ranging with a 6 foot fence.

You may want to build safe guards against dogs and hawk trees (these are branches arranged in a tee pee formation to run too for a chicken to escape a hawk). You may also want to look into guard animals. This needs to be carefully done.


However, If you are looking for automation where you don't have to do much with them, you are kinda barking up the wrong tree. You have to do more with a total free ranging animals then less. The reason is because you have to take more predator precautions and weather precautions or your flock gets wiped out. 

If you were to build a coop and run (with the right systems), you could get the 1-2 a day egg collections and clean it once a week. You don't have to open if it's an automatic door or you could leave the door open with a predator proof coop to a predator proof run.


My great grandpa's birds on his farm were somewhat feral but they were in a big coop with a run. The hens hatched their eggs. They were fed food and given water but that was the only human interaction. The kids cleaned the coop (closed the coop and cleaned it so no chicken interaction and cleaned the run at dusk). Other than the food it was a self propelled system. The run was predator proof and they would have free access. It was a really big run. They didn't comsume much food because they ate the bugs.

The system above fits the usda definition of free range.

I know you're probably sick of hearing about problems but my great grandpa's birds were mean. He had Rhode Island Reds and Barred Rocks and they would attack people. Especially the roosters would attack. They were just so feral it wasn't even funny. I was a kid and I hate those breeds for this reason. They will probably scratch at you and peck at you every time you come around if they are completely feral. My definition for feral is hen raised with little human interaction for feral. The barred rocks and rhode island reds were equally mean. These birds I mentioned are considered friendly and wouldn't do this if they weren't feral.


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## fallen4shell

*lol* GREAT INFO wclee! Keep it coming! 


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## wclee

Also our dogs were pretty watchful of the chicken. If they heard something out of the ordinary they usually took care of it. While on dogs the number one killer of the chickens were the deer dogs during dog season 


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## fallen4shell

wclee - Just out of curiosity, did you at all regulate the ratio of roosters to hens or just let nature take its course in that regard? Either way, approx what would you say was your average ratio of roosters to hens at any given point?


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## wclee

I didn't even think about the weather where I'm at the coldest it's ever got was 7 degrees and if not mistaken that was in the early 90s. I have to admit if I was further up north would have to rethink my open sided shed. 


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## wclee

Let nature take is corse. If any of the neighbors needed a new rooster or seen a rooster they liked more than theirs we would try to watch where he went to roost and catch him and he was theres. We all did that. 


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## fallen4shell

Hmm, interesting. I have considered tying up a watchdog nearby to help discourage predators. The weather shouldn't be a major factor I don't think...I live in a pretty moderate climate and I don't EVER remember it getting down to 7 degrees here before!


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## LittleWings

fallen4shell said:


> Everyone I talk to seems to think it just can't be done...or at least they come up with about a hundred reasons why it can't possibly work. Basically what I am wanting is simply a localized flock of feral chickens. I know Chickens still exist in the wild (see Red Jungle Fowl) and I know of several instances where chickens have been neglected or abandoned and simply start fending for themselves and go "feral". So has anyone intentionally introduced a flock to a given area in hopes that they go feral?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Chicken Forum


If you will do a little research on chickens you will see why everyone is saying it can't be done. Most of the chickens around have been bred for meat or eggs or both, but surviving in the wild is not one of the things they have been bred for. If you throw a bunch of Barred Rocks into the woods, they will be eaten by predictors in no time. If you were to intentionally introduced a flock to a given area in hopes that they go feral (not sure why you would want to) you would need to use something like the Red Jungle Fowl or American Game. Something that might survive. Most of the chickens that decided to fend for themselves have not had a happy ending.

Chickens do run wild in other countries and even in Hawaii, but I don't think it is a positive thing and is something that most would change if they could.

It seems strange to me that you are "really NOT INTERESTED in a hundred additional reasons why I can't or shouldn't release chickens into the wild".

You are on a forum for chicken enthusiast to say the least and I doubt if you are going to find many folks here that have neglected, abandoned or just let some chickens go to see if they would go feral. Most people don't do that. But, you never know. Keep looking, you just might find someone. Good luck to ya!

Ken


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## fallen4shell

I am so glad to have met you, wclee. I must admit that all the naysayers had me discouraged but I am extremely grateful to you for sharing your experience. It seems to me this world is so upside down these days everyone saying how much more humane it is to lock a bird in a cage for its entire life (either to enslave it for its eggs or simply fatten it up for meat) then to let it roam free just because it might be exposed to the dangers of LIVING. That would be like locking every human in little square cells for practically their entire lives and enslaving them to work long hours for someone else's benefit in order to "protect" them from the dangers of self subsistence....oh wait...we do that too. No wonder so many people can't imagine a wild chicken!


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## wclee

I agree it is not for every one and for sure not every breed of chicken can do it. The reason we all did and most still do is they simply followed the cows around hung out in the yard and did there thing. I was born into them that way and have since moved and started keeping chickens in coops. Was a learning experience for me. Still got my game chickens when I moved caught and brought some of them with me. The others we caught and too to my neighbors. 


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## fallen4shell

its amazing to me how many people are willing to chime in and post their "expertise" about things they have never conceived of trying (can we say "think outside the nugget" here?) let alone actually have any experience with. ugh


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## hellofromtexas

I think a breed to try for this is an easter egger. 

My great grandpa killed off excess roos and put them on the table

What's your climate and enviroment like for this...

You will have to provide some things in order for it to work (run ins and hawk trees etc). Prepare for loses however. You can minamize but you can completely get rid of losses

What scale do you want to do this?

Do you have a fence or some way to keep them in an area so they don't get into your neighbors yard. 

Are you in the country or city? Some cities have rooster laws


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## fallen4shell

and since we are in the practice on this thread of giving our unwarranted, unmerited, and un-asked for opinions I will give you mine: I suspect that the whole reason chickens moved from the wild to "free range" to "the coop" can be summed up in two words: human "convenience" & increased "production". I ask you to be honest, wclee (because I believe YOU are the only person I can trust to do so), and think about WHY you moved from free feral chickens to chickens in a coop and then tell me if you don't agree with my above statement?


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## hellofromtexas

no it's cost to loss and production....

You will have losses with free range.....

But that doesn't answer any questions of where you are trying to do this and the space and the scale and the predators.

Like it or not hawk trees are your friend.









Also decoy animals.

I have info on what your trying to do and I've been trying to give you a balanced answer. I'm sorry I am not sunshine and rainbows. Yes it can be done but you will need to do stuff to make it work


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## fallen4shell

hellofromtexas said:


> I think a breed to try for this is an easter egger.
> 
> My great grandpa killed off excess roos and put them on the table
> 
> What's your climate and enviroment like for this...
> 
> You will have to provide some things in order for it to work (run ins and hawk trees etc). Prepare for loses however. You can minamize but you can completely get rid of losses
> 
> What scale do you want to do this?
> 
> Do you have a fence or some way to keep them in an area so they don't get into your neighbors yard.
> 
> Are you in the country or city? Some cities have rooster laws


I have 40 acres of private woodland (partially logged, but lots of rocks and brush piles for deep cover and still some trees also) that is surrounded by thousands of acres of uninhabited forest so neighbors and city ordinances are not a problem. I do not live on this property, but I try to go up there once a day to check on things and have been throwing scratch to my existing flock (2 birds) in an effort to keep them in a somewhat general area so I know where to find them.

I am prepared for losses but want to do as absolutely little as possible to assist in their survival. My hope is for their deep rooted animal instincts to kick in (such as cannot EVER be fully bred out) and them to revert back to survival practices of their ancestors.

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## fallen4shell

As to the scale, I am not wanting to do this in any sort of commercial or profitable capacity. Think of it as a chicken wildlife refuge. I would be willing to do what I can to assist in their survival without actually trying to directly facilitate it. My purpose is to form a more natural symbiotic relationship to the chickens whereby they exist an survive independently of me but I could shoot and eat one if I needed to. The correlation in my mind would be akin to having a small lake with fish in it that develop into their own ecological system independent of humans, yet are still there for the occasional saturday afternoon fishing excursion. Where would be the fun in dropping a fish hook into a small aquarium of fish that I have spent more time/money/energy feeding and taking care of than I can ever hope to recover in calories if I eat them. Such is my disdain for a chicken coop.


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## fallen4shell

hellofromtexas said:


> Like it or not hawk trees are your friend.


There are literally HUNDREDS of structures like this on my land that were essentially scrap piles from where the loggers came through. My chickens have no shortage of hiding places.



hellofromtexas said:


> I have info on what your trying to do and I've been trying to give you a balanced answer. I'm sorry I am not sunshine and rainbows. Yes it can be done but you will need to do stuff to make it work


Yes, I see that and actually I meant to say something about it in my previous post, but got sidetracked. Thank you, I do VERY MUCH appreciate your shift toward more helpful information rather than just telling me it can't and shouldn't be done as many others are doing. Sorry if you felt thrown into an inappropriate lump due to my last rebuttal.

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## hellofromtexas

Red jungle fowl or the "game" varieties may have the wild you are looking for... You will want broody hens. You will want very flightly and fast to avoid predators

I would keep a flock of 36 with 3 roosters or (48 with 4 roos) to start. Reason being if something happens to a roo you have 2-3 back up before the hens hatch and replenish. Also it allows for broody hens and hen losses. Without a controlled breeding, you will have a little inbreeding but with a large flock of 36 it shouldn't be too much of an issue.


You may need to worry about snakes because of the brush but hens peck at snakes. I'm assuming hawks and dogs as those are the most common predators.

For these the hawk tee pee above will help. Also a run in enclosure where it looks kinda like a airy coop but it just something to run into to protect from medium to large dogs.

Decoy animals can deter but sometimes the predator adapts to them


How feral are you trying to go?


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## fallen4shell

completely feral. 


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## fallen4shell

what would be the reasons for limiting the number of roosters? Why not 10 roosters or more roosters than hens for that matter? I am not knowledgeable about traditional chicken farming so I was just wondering. 


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## fallen4shell

I am assuming in true feral or wild chicken flocks the ratio of roosters to hens regulates itself, though I am not sure exactly how. Cock fights maybe?


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## hellofromtexas

fallen4shell said:


> completely feral.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Chicken Forum


By completely do you mean no coop and run?

If so make sure there are plenty of places to perch high and bushes to nest

Or by completely just a self managing system?

The coop may decrease your losses and if it's floorless and automated there is little cleaning, maintenance and you would just go by every 2 days to collect eggs and move it.


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## fallen4shell

completely feral as in no coop and run or man made structure whatsoever. The layout of my land does afford quite a few options for them in terms of cover and trees to roost in. 


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## hellofromtexas

fallen4shell said:


> what would be the reasons for limiting the number of roosters? Why not 10 roosters or more roosters than hens for that matter? I am not knowledgeable about traditional chicken farming so I was just wondering.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Chicken Forum


This is just to start.

The reason my great grandpa killed roosters was they were tasty and yes they fight but they needed food.

Yes it will self regulate but you could kill them off for really tasty food at 8-10 weeks.

6-8 hens to 1 rooster for 3 reason. The hens will stop laying and get injuried and the roosters will fight get hurt and be too hurt to fight predators and take care of hens


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## fallen4shell

I'm not worried about losses and I'm not concerned about gathering the eggs. I would like to have a self subsisting flock that replenishes its losses by natural procreation.


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## hellofromtexas

fallen4shell said:


> completely feral as in no coop and run or man made structure whatsoever. The layout of my land does afford quite a few options for them in terms of cover and trees to roost in.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Chicken Forum


Are decoy animals and brush run ins included in this definition?

Make sure they have lots trees they can get into and lots of bushes

Also make sure the hens are broody. This means they will raise young.

Will you have a water and feed supplement to their natural diet?


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## fallen4shell

hellofromtexas said:


> 6-8 hens to 1 rooster for 3 reason. The hens will stop laying and get injuried and the roosters will fight get hurt and be too hurt to fight predators and take care of hens


Have you personally witnessed/experienced all three of your listed consequences of an overpopulation of roosters? Seems to me like the strongest rooster gets the hens and he would protect her from both predators and other roosters while she broods

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## hellofromtexas

fallen4shell said:


> Have you personally witnessed/experienced all three of your listed consequences of an overpopulation of roosters? Seems to me like the strongest rooster gets the hens and he would protect her from both predators and other roosters while she broods
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Chicken Forum


Yea great grandpa made a mistake one year and it sucked.

Egg production ceased and the roosters were to hurt to do anything. He almost lost the flock and had to add roosters

The ratio was 2 hens to 1 roo.

The roos fought to the death of both of them and they wiped themselves out alright


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## fallen4shell

hellofromtexas said:


> Are decoy animals and brush run ins included in this definition?
> 
> Will you have a water and feed supplement to their natural diet?


yes, the only interference i might have in the natural cycle of nature would be to shoot a coyote hanging around or maybe post a guard dog to help discourage land predators.

I don't plan on supplementing their natural feed at all except maybe to throw scratch or scraps to them when I come to check on things just to encourage them not to roost too far from where I turn them loose.

They do have access to natural water sources on my land and I release them close to that stream and let them choose their own roost from there.

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## hellofromtexas

fallen4shell said:


> yes, the only interference i might have in the natural cycle of nature would be to shoot a coyote hanging around or maybe post a guard dog to help discourage land predators.
> 
> I don't plan on supplementing their natural feed at all except maybe to throw scratch or scraps to them when I come to check on things just to encourage them not to roost too far from where I turn them loose.
> 
> They do have access to natural water sources on my land and I release them close to that stream and let them choose their own roost from there.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Chicken Forum


Be careful with algae. You may want to check for this and other poisonous plants.

A fence may discourage coyotes and you could keep it far enough that it wouldn't interfere with the chickens. A fenced acre or more won't interfere with what you're trying to do.

As for guard dog you will have to carefully socialize it to chickens and look into livestock guardian breeds or the pound and see how it acts around chickens. Livestock guardians breeds

What is your temp range? I'm asking this for breed. Consider a cold hardy breed to avoid frostbite for cold and a heat hardy breed to avoid heat stroke for heat. Or if in the middle just all around hardy

Make sure you have fast flighty birds. This is a predator avoidance trait.

Also broody birds will raise chicks.


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## Fiere

I have some questions for you: Have you ever kept chickens before? Why do you want to do this? Also, why not pheasants or quail or turkeys or game birds designed to do this? Why a chicken who has been selectively bred for eons to lose most of these traits you want them to retain? 

If you have the flock procreate on its own you will get 50% males and females, roughly. In the wild, fowl breeds run in small batches of 1-4 within a certain area and the males fight over these little bands of hens and have solo and bachelor groups themselves (think of wild turkeys, if you've ever experienced them). The roosters won't kill each other off. How we keep chickens in captivity is making their territory one area and being territorial creatures, roosters sometimes get antsy and cause a curfuffle with too many. I've had 18 here at one time with no issues at all. That's residing with 28 hens so my numbers were less than 2:1, and I never had fights, stressed hens, or a lack in egg production. The top roos had their females and the lower roos put themselves into bachelor groups, everyone slept together at night and roamed a mile wide circle around my house during the day, usually staying in my cleared section because that is home base. I essentially have what wclee had only my chickens get fed and snuggled.

If you have no desire to live on the land yourself, you may well find your chickens go into that sort of wild fowl formation vs the formation of wclee's and my flock, as those setups are different than what you are wanting to do. Throwing a communal scratch pile out every so often would be like feeding wild birds, they'd not stay close to it, just visit when they needed too.

My hens frequently walk half a mile through the woods to visit the neighbors by dawn (the lady there puts her kitchen scraps out for them and encourages this). The only reason they haven't gone farther is because they didn't need to. So keep that in mind, with no home base they will wander, and wander, and wander. This leads to run ins with the law, and whether you want to scoff at it or not, the law may prevent you from doing this. Just because you have a lot of land doesn't mean you're allowed to dump feral birds out on it, unfortunately. 

My neighbor at my old home raises pheasant and after brooding chases them out of the coop and never feeds or offers them shelter again. We had very few pheasant next to the house, they all traveled as far as they could and created their own territory, I expect a chicken breed suited to this feral lifestyle would do the same. This means you'd never find their eggs and rarely them. My neighbor enjoyed having a local population of pheasant as we didn't have one in the area. He'd not hunt them or anything, but if he was 10 miles down the road and saw a pheasant, he knew it was his and feel good about it. These were native pheasants, as well, not whatever bird he liked. So that's a bit different, but the premises are the same.

I don't think, given the information you've given, that this is going to work like you plan to have it work. And it has nothing to do with a coop, if you want something to work you need to understand why it wont work and go from there. You won't have a flock of chickens around a spot in the woods where you occasionally dump food.


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## Fiere

To give you an idea of my layout, my land is a 2.4 acre cleared area on the road in a 120 acre U of black spruce thicket with the closest neighbors living on a 1 acre cleared parcel half a mile down. There's miles and miles of "unowned" thicket around/behind me and the whole area (the whole collective named area and its surrouding named areas) is stamped with little cleared parcels along roadways. So it is not so very different than what you are describing your birds will live in. I live in the woods like a mountain man only with creature comforts LOL.


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## wclee

The reasons I went to useing coop was after my daughters got a little older and we moved they wanted to start their own little coops so I did. It was a new experience and a whole different style of keeping chickens. I will be honest I have seen the benefits of both styles. 


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## LittleWings

fallen4shell said:


> its amazing to me how many people are willing to chime in and post their "expertise" about things they have never conceived of trying (can we say "think outside the nugget" here?) let alone actually have any experience with. ugh
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Chicken Forum


Its amazing to me how some people just don't listen. There are other people involved besides just you and your desire to start a feral chicken flock. It creates problems. You may not care if it bothers other people but that is why we have laws, for people that don't care about other peoples rights.

Maybe own some chickens first or at least listen to people that actually own them. You are not doing a positive thing!!

Or if you just can't listen and learn then just do a search on wild chickens and see how people feel. Counties are having to spend money they don't have to get rid of feral chickens that are causing problems.

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/2014/03/02/2982019/inquirer-fugitive-feral-fowl-flood.html

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/6273414/feral-chicken-problem-invades-oahu

http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/wild-chicken-problem-leaves-dade-city-perplexed/1230698

http://www.royalgazette.com/article/20120815/NEWS07/120819984&source=RSS


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## fallen4shell

Fiere - What kind of coop set up do you have for your chickens? Is it an open shed or barn set up kind of like what wclee described where the chickens can go in and out as they please, or do you have a sealed off fortress type coop that you close, latch, and lock down every night so that nothing gets in or out?


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## Fiere

I have a barn and run that is far from fortress like but well protected against large predators and the elements. My birds would not last long in these winters in a 3-sided shed. If the foxes and coyotes are patrolling I shut the run door at night after the birds have gone in the coop to roost. Usually the run door is open allowing the birds to come and go as they please, and everynight I do a headcount. 
My birds are not feral at all. They are just allowed to do whatever they want mostly. The run is there to keep them safe if needed, their "chicken door" on the coop has no covering so if the run door is open (which it is 90% of the time) they are up and gone long before I am out of bed. 
I don't limit their activities unless I have valid reason to, if someone is taking care of the farm for a few days my birds are kept penned so that their babysitter can assess them at a glance, or as mentioned if the predators are looming more so than usual. I have to lock the active layers in the run for a few hours in the morning to reset them to lay in the nest box sometimes if they start laying deep in the woods where I can't find their hoard. This takes about 3 days every few weeks and I leave them penned till about 11am then open the run door. I never lock them in a coop.
I lose chickens every year due to predation and the elements, that's the nature of free range chickens. I keep my birds for meat and eggs so I want my meat and eggs, in return they get good supplemental feed, shelter, and the freedom to experience their chickenness.

I do breed rarer breeds and to ensure my lines are pure and my breedings are proper I will segregate a few birds in a purpose built coop and run for a few weeks, which they hate but put up with as I make it enriching for them to be in there.

My goals are different than what wclee described, and some of my breeds aren't suited to survival without intervention, and I live on the east coast of Canada where winters are cold, damp and long, so I manage my birds accordingly. The basic practices are roughly the same though.

ETA: My coop is unheated and has no artificial light. My new and bigger coop will be the same. It's sparsely insulated as we get very cold damp strong winds and as such drafts need to be minimal. It stays about 10° warmer than the outside air. It ain't no palace that's for sure!


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## fallen4shell

hellofromtexas said:


> Yea great grandpa made a mistake one year and it sucked.
> 
> Egg production ceased and the roosters were to hurt to do anything. He almost lost the flock and had to add roosters
> 
> The ratio was 2 hens to 1 roo.
> 
> The roos fought to the death of both of them and they wiped themselves out alright


 I'm confused...do you mean that he had to add HENS and that the disproportionate ratio was 2 ROOSTERS to one HEN?


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## fallen4shell

hellofromtexas said:


> A fence may discourage coyotes and you could keep it far enough that it wouldn't interfere with the chickens. A fenced acre or more won't interfere with what you're trying to do.


 I eventually have plans to fence in the entire 40 acres and add a population of goats to my homestead. But as of now that is just not possible because of time and finances.


hellofromtexas said:


> As for guard dog you will have to carefully socialize it to chickens and look into livestock guardian breeds or the pound and see how it acts around chickens.


 If I did this at all I would use rescued dogs of any breed (hopefully from pups) and socialize them with the chickens as much as possible while I am there then simply tie them out or put them on a cable run where they could get close enough to the chickens to be an adversarial presence for predators, but I would not have to worry about them attacking the chickens themselves while I am not around.


hellofromtexas said:


> What is your temp range? I'm asking this for breed. Consider a cold hardy breed to avoid frostbite for cold and a heat hardy breed to avoid heat stroke for heat. Or if in the middle just all around hardy.


 Extreme temperatures here rarely get above 100 degrees in summer or below 20 degrees in the dead of winter. Very little snow or wintery precipitation on average.


hellofromtexas said:


> Make sure you have fast flighty birds. This is a predator avoidance trait.


 My suspicion is that this trait is more dependent on lifestyle and feed than on the breed of bird itself. I am hoping that once I get over the initial hump of losing the domesticated birds that are not used to having to worry about predators, if I can get ever get a second generation of chicks raised completely in the open they will naturally adapt to the situation and I won't have to worry so much about it anymore. We will see how it goes though.


hellofromtexas said:


> Also broody birds will raise chicks.


 When selecting chickens to buy, how would one go about determining if they are "broody" or not?


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## fallen4shell

wclee said:


> I will be honest I have seen the benefits of both styles.


Thanks for your honesty. Would you care to expound a bit? Having done it both ways, what were the specific benefits you saw from each respective style?


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## TheLazyL

fallen4shell said:


> ..everyone saying how much more humane it is to lock a bird in a cage for its entire life ..let it roam free just because it might be exposed to the dangers of LIVING. That would be like locking every human in little square cells for practically their entire lives...


Most humans are living in cells most of their lives. The cells are called houses, cubicles (work), public transportation and cars. We almost always have some type of shell around us for protection.


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## wclee

For me the benefits of then being on their own was mainly the pest control and being able to watch them just do as they pleased and be their self. For keeping them cooped up its the enjoyment my girls get out of playing with them( good bit tamer), haven't purchased an egg from the store in roughly 3 years and I have started to selective breed some of them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Chicken Forum


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## Fiere

Some breeds do suck at being flighty and are not suited for unsupervised free ranging. This is not a suspicion at all. They simply can't move fast, see far, or have any inherent stranger danger. Some will walk up to a fox and ask for treats. You have to remember, chickens have been bred selectively for eons. 

Same goes for broodiness, it has been bred out of some breeds and nothing you do will make that chicken set eggs. 

This is why I can't understand why you want to do this with chickens. There are birds more suitable for feral raising. Some chicken breeds would be akin to releasing a pack of teacup Yorkshire terriers.


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## hellofromtexas

fallen4shell said:


> I'm confused...do you mean that he had to add HENS and that the disproportionate ratio was 2 ROOSTERS to one HEN?


Add roosters because they all died. 2 hens to one rooster. It was a bad hatch year that year and he miscounted the pullets to cockerels that hatched.



fallen4shell said:


> I eventually have plans to fence in the entire 40 acres and add a population of goats to my homestead. But as of now that is just not possible because of time and finances. If I did this at all I would use rescued dogs of any breed (hopefully from pups) and socialize them with the chickens as much as possible while I am there then simply tie them out or put them on a cable run where they could get close enough to the chickens to be an adversarial presence for predators, but I would not have to worry about them attacking the chickens themselves while I am not around. Extreme temperatures here rarely get above 100 degrees in summer or below 20 degrees in the dead of winter. Very little snow or wintery precipitation on average. My suspicion is that this trait is more dependent on lifestyle and feed than on the breed of bird itself. I am hoping that once I get over the initial hump of losing the domesticated birds that are not used to having to worry about predators, if I can get ever get a second generation of chicks raised completely in the open they will naturally adapt to the situation and I won't have to worry so much about it anymore. We will see how it goes though. When selecting chickens to buy, how would one go about determining if they are "broody" or not?


No the flighty trait is dependent on the breed. You can't speed a slow bird up. The heavy birds can't fly that well either. For my purposes this trait would drive me crazy. For yours, its essential

The game varieties can be fairly self sufficient.

Broody means they will rear chicks and also depends on the breed. Some hens will never raise chicks

These traits have been selectively bred in and out of birds. So you will have to look for a small to medium hearty flighty bird that will rear chicks


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## fallen4shell

TheLazyL said:


> Most humans are living in cells most of their lives. The cells are called houses, cubicles (work), public transportation and cars. We almost always have some type of shell around us for protection.


Haha....this is EXACTLY MY POINT! I don't think you even realize how well you just played into it with your rebuttal. And the sad thing is you are arguing that your cubicle prison is a GOOD thing just as adamantly as you argue that birds NEED to be imprisoned to survive. I, on the other hand, long to be WILD AND FREE and fly the coop of modern civilization! This was my motivation for buying a plot of land essentially in the wilderness and this, in essence, is my motive for wanting to establish a flock of feral chickens.


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## Fiere

My birds are far from imprisoned. Some of them (during the summer months) would be perfectly fine without me. But I don't at all expect them to survive on their own all year without the basic creature comforts I provide them. Even wclee's birds relied on his setup for their survival.


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## Fiere

wclee said:


> For me the benefits of then being on their own was mainly the pest control and being able to watch them just do as they pleased and be their self. For keeping them cooped up its the enjoyment my girls get out of playing with them( good bit tamer), haven't purchased an egg from the store in roughly 3 years and I have started to selective breed some of them.


That's why I like my setup, wclee. I, and my flock, get the best of both worlds! Works really well for us. Predation does suck but my management seems to be outweighing the cons.


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## hellofromtexas

I forgot to mention with shelter dogs.... Make sure they are livestock guardian dogs and not bird dogs. Examples are Great Pyrenees and Tibetan Mastiff. Other guardian animals are donkeys, alpaca and llamas, they too are often found in shelters. This doesn't mean they will take to chickens. Video below is how to naturally control coyotes without guns


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## robin416

fallen4shell said:


> I, on the other hand, long to be WILD AND FREE and fly the coop of modern civilization! This was my motivation for buying a plot of land essentially in the wilderness and this, in essence, is my motive for wanting to establish a flock of feral chickens.


So, in essence this all about what you want. Doesn't matter to you what the birds need. Your wants come before the safety and well being of the birds.

Its been mentioned more than once in this thread that living wild has been bred out of almost every breed and that their chance of survival in the wild has become almost non existent.

Its also become obvious that you don't want to listen to the experienced voices and that you have not gotten the answers "you want" to fit your scenario so you attack those with experience with sarcasm.


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## fallen4shell

I can certainly understand why someone would want to keep their chickens somewhat confined and domesticated, especially if wanting to collect the eggs. Truth be told I may eventually move toward that style of chicken rearing if my "feral free range" idea does not work, but I still want to try this first. I have two chickens already (a rooster and a hen) that seem to have adapted well so far and found a nice hidden and secure place to roost and I plan on adding more soon so we will see how it goes.


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## fallen4shell

robin416 said:


> So, in essence this all about what you want. Doesn't matter to you what the birds need. Your wants come before the safety and well being of the birds.
> 
> Its been mentioned more than once in this thread that living wild has been bred out of almost every breed and that their chance of survival in the wild has become almost non existent.
> 
> Its also become obvious that you don't want to listen to the experienced voices and that you have not gotten the answers "you want" to fit your scenario so you attack those with experience with sarcasm.


"Let he who has never eaten a chicken nugget cast the first stone." *lol* Seriously, in a world with McDonalds chicken nuggets and commerical chicken houses that pile birds into confined spaces to roll around in their own sh*t while all the while pumping them so full of steroids and antibiotics and god knows what other chemicals so that they can be converted to bigger $$$ when fed to the unsuspecting masses....you are going to lecture ME about the inhumanity of letting chickens free range?


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## Fiere

Why chickens? If you don't care about the eggs, why not pheasant or quail or any other gamebird species already adapted to do what you want right now. 

When you are living on the land, a come and go flock of chickens that is kept to provide you with eggs in a base camp shelter with food and water can be purchased. 
People domesticated chickens to live with them in a non-feral way hundreds if not thousands of years ago. The original "chicken" was kept this way. If you want to get back to the roots of it, that's the way to keep them.


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## Fiere

fallen4shell said:


> "Let he who has never eaten a chicken nugget cast the first stone." *lol* Seriously, in a world with McDonalds chicken nuggets and commerical chicken houses that pile birds into confined spaces to roll around in their own sh*t while all the while pumping them so full of steroids and antibiotics and god knows what other chemicals so that they can be converted to bigger $$$ when fed to the unsuspecting masses....you are going to lecture ME about the inhumanity of letting chickens free range?


You are misconstruing free range with feral. They are NOT the same thing. Robin, nor anyone else, has said free ranging chickens is bad.


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## fallen4shell

Fiere said:


> People domesticated chickens to live with them in a non-feral way hundreds if not thousands of years ago. The original "chicken" was kept this way.


I reject the notion that just because something has been done a certain way for a long time it is necessarily the RIGHT way to do it. I suspect that the same type arguments were used in the 1800s by slave owners who wanted to keep their slaves because they were a great benefit to them AND because they presumed to know what was best for the ******. Back then, everyone knew a ***** was more like an animal than a man and had been too domesticated to survive on its own. It was certainly an act of KINDNESS to keep a ***** as a slave...provide for it food and shelter in exchange for the work that it provided to benefit the WHITE slave owner. Such liberal notions as individual freedoms for ****** were met with great opposition during that time period....so much so that a civil war erupted.

I'm not suggesting that chicken coop farmers are comparable to 19th century slave owners (though perhaps commercial chicken houses are) but I am only trying to suggest that sometimes it's good to think outside the box a little bit and break the norms of how things are "supposed to be" done or "have always been" done.


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## fallen4shell

This thread is getting SERIOUSLY way off track. I have no desire to get into philosophical debates over the inhumane treatment of chickens (or humans for that matter). 

If you disagree with what I am trying to do or think it's a bad idea that's fine. You have a right to your opinion, but is it REALLY necessary to try and convince everyone else on planet earth who disagrees with you that YOU are right and THEY are wrong? 

Can we PLEASE just drop the whole condescension and arguing and let me get back to the REAL purpose for which I started this thread (to get ideas and info from people who HAVE HAD DIRECT EXPERIENCE raising feral or free range chickens without the use of a coop and/or with little human interaction)? 

I apologize for my sarcastic and offensive remarks thus far or any that have been perceived as such. I suppose it is a natural (animal instinctive perhaps?) reaction to feeling threatened. In truth I have no need to convince any of you that what I am trying to do is worthwhile or legitimate. I am perfectly willing to let everyone who disagrees with me have their own opinions and viewpoints if they will just leave this thread to it's original purpose and let me have mine. All who desire to continue the debate on the ethical and moral implications of letting chickens go feral are more than welcome to start a new thread elsewhere and argue about it until you are blue in the face. I, personally, am tired of arguing.


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## Fiere

I don't see how turning domestic animals loose to hopefully fend for themselves is at all right. No one is saying cage them, cuddle them and give them names.
We are saying that as domestic animals they do depend on us for survival and it is irresponsible to not provide them with basic care.

You still haven't given a reason as to why you want to do this specifically with chickens. If you actually wanted chickens for a purpose then I can see wanting a flock to just sort of exist with minimal care as you want everything to be all natural. But when you want nothing to do with the birds but to have them roam vacant land, why not get a species designed for that?


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## robin416

fallen4shell said:


> "Let he who has never eaten a chicken nugget cast the first stone." *lol* Seriously, in a world with McDonalds chicken nuggets and commerical chicken houses that pile birds into confined spaces to roll around in their own sh*t while all the while pumping them so full of steroids and antibiotics and god knows what other chemicals so that they can be converted to bigger $$$ when fed to the unsuspecting masses....you are going to lecture ME about the inhumanity of letting chickens free range?


Actually, I'm criticizing you for trying to force domesticated birds in to a situation that leaves them in harms way because of your personal wants.

My oldest bird is over 8 1/2 years old. About the same length of time I've been rearing them. My birds have always had the opportunity to be out and about during the day time hours before the issue with the neighbor's birds.

I've lost zero birds to predation, just since being here, 8 months, she's lost 6. I've heard chicks crying in the woods when they were unable to keep up with the others. None of the chicks that were hatched survived.

Basically those of us with experience have told you why its not a good idea. We have accepted the responsibility in rearing our birds in conditions that will give them a higher probability of survival.

You want to be released from that responsibility.

For those that think a fence will stop a coyote. No, it won't. I was hunting one just before we moved that had hopped the stock fence. My own dog could go over the stock fence like it wasn't there.


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## Fiere

We have replied. We've given you information up the wazoo. I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for when offered dozens of replies to keep chickens minimally don't seem to stack up?


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## LittleWings

Its ok to think outside of the box but you can't just not care if it hurts other people. Feral chickens are a nuisance and a health concern. With your lack of concern for others I sure am glad it is not a bunch of Pit Bulls that you are wanting to experiment with. 

Stupid humans...we have been doing it wrong all along. I am so glad you have risen to show us the way.


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## fallen4shell

Fiere said:


> Why chickens?


To answer your question, Fiere, assuming (perhaps naively) that it is one of curiosity and not of condescension: the reason I want to raise chickens is basically for the meat. If I find an egg every now and then great, but mostly I want to create a natural habitat conducive to feral chickens. All natural meat to supplement an eventual low maintenance garden and fish/frog pond moving toward self sufficiency and a symbiotic relationship with nature (as opposed to the consumptive relationship that mankind currently has). Chickens are the easiest option because they are non migratory and I don't have to (legally) have a hunting license to kill one of them and eat it if I need to because they are technically considered livestock. And also just because of all the people who insist (even though they have never tried it) that it cannot be done.


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## fallen4shell

Fiere said:


> We have replied. We've given you information up the wazoo. I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for when offered dozens of replies to keep chickens minimally don't seem to stack up?


Then let me ONCE AGAIN restate: I am looking for information from anyone (such as wclee) who has EXPERIENCE (not just opinion) raising chickens with little to no necessary human interaction and WITHOUT A COOP or protective man made structure.

Does that clarify?

99% of the "information up the wazoo" that has been given to me in this thread does not fit the above description and has therefore been ignored and disregarded.

I have tried to ignore the personal attacks and general condescension as well, but have not been very successful. For THAT I do apologize.


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## Fiere

Ah, now I see where you're going with this.I was, actually curious.

You do need a permit depending on where you live to raise some game birds, but that permit gives you right to kill your stock out of its perhaps local season. I don't need a permit to have eastern wild turkeys for example, so I have no worries about being caught with dead ones. They have a lot more meat on them than a chicken too. But I'm going to assume that you enjoy hunting and don't want to involve the government in your business. I can respect that.
But I will maintain there are much better species of birds to do that with


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## robin416

fallen4shell said:


> Then let me ONCE AGAIN restate: I am looking for information from anyone (such as wclee) who has EXPERIENCE (not just opinion) raising chickens with little to no necessary human interaction and WITHOUT A COOP or protective man made structure.
> 
> Does that clarify?
> 
> 99% of the "information up the wazoo" that has been given to me in this thread does not fit the above description and has therefore been ignored and disregarded.
> 
> I have tried to ignore the personal attacks and general condescension as well, but have not been very successful. For THAT I do apologize.


Ignored? Disregarded? That might be your take on it because it doesn't fit what you want. The fact is, there are many, many years of successful poultry rearing on this forum and probably the others you've already approached. All of those experienced voices have told you why it will not go well.

All of us hate to see any animal suffer because the human that is supposed to accept responsibility for their care and well being doesn't want the responsibility.

So far all we've really seen from you is what you want. We all want a lot of things but if the reality doesn't fit then we need to adjust to be successful.


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## fallen4shell

Fiere said:


> Ah, now I see where you're going with this.I was, actually curious.
> 
> You do need a permit depending on where you live to raise some game birds, but that permit gives you right to kill your stock out of its perhaps local season. I don't need a permit to have eastern wild turkeys for example, so I have no worries about being caught with dead ones. They have a lot more meat on them than a chicken too. But I'm going to assume that you enjoy hunting and don't want to involve the government in your business. I can respect that.
> But I will maintain there are much better species of birds to do that with


That's an interesting thought. I may look into turkeys eventually, I know there are wild turkeys around here and I know that a license is required to kill them and only in season (no such stipulations that I am aware of exist for chickens) but if I could acquire said permit I may consider raising turkeys and/or other game birds as well. I am not much of a hunter, but mainly because I, as you said, "don't want to involve the government in my business" and don't want to have to purchase a license and keep up with seasons and such. I may start hunting now that I have this land, though. I know there is a pretty good population of whitetail deer and several rabbits as well as probably some squirrels and other small game in the right season.


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## fallen4shell

fallen4shell said:


> I am looking for information from anyone (such as wclee) who has EXPERIENCE (not just opinion) raising chickens with little to no necessary human interaction and WITHOUT A COOP or protective man made structure.


From this point forward all posts to this thread that do not legitimately pertain to the above clearly stated request for information but are only posted for the purpose of personal condescension or further inciting argument will not be dignified with a response but will rather be simply reported to the administrators of this forum for disciplinary action. Thank you....and have a good day. 



robin416 said:


> Ignored? Disregarded? That might be your take on it because it doesn't fit what you want.
> 
> All of us hate to see any animal suffer because the human that is supposed to accept responsibility for their care and well being doesn't want the responsibility.
> 
> So far all we've really seen from you is what you want. We all want a lot of things but if the reality doesn't fit then we need to adjust to be successful.


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## LittleWings

"I am looking for information from anyone (such as wclee) who has EXPERIENCE (not just opinion)* raising *chickens with little to no necessary human interaction and WITHOUT A COOP or protective man made structure."

You are not talking about raising chickens, you are talking about letting chickens loose in the wild. There is a difference. That will potentially interfere with the rights of others that would like to free range on their own land but can't because of the feral population of chickens that you started.

Report me if that is what you feel you need to do!


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## fallen4shell

LittleWings said:


> Report me if that is what you feel you need to do!


I did. I can appreciate your passion for your personal opinion, but I thoroughly disagree with you and (again) ask simply that you please take your argument somewhere else. Debate is not the reason for which I started this thread nor do I intend to facilitate it any longer. I harbor no ill will toward you personally...I know you are just making a statement for what you believe is right and wrong. Just be aware that not everyone holds your same beliefs and no matter how hard you try you may never get them to. I wish you well and have a good day.


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## Fiere

You type far faster than i can on this little phone. I'm not trying to be condensing, at all. Quite the opposite. I simply have lots of chicken experience. 

I gave info on breed traits and behaviours that is pertaining to what you wish to do and why your methods might not yield the desired outcome, based on my experiences and knowledge. Just because I use a coop (and I also explained why I do that) doesn't make my experiences invalid. My chicken keeping is not so far from wclee, but my goals and climate dictate my husbandry practices to ensure my flocks survival and my goals are met. 
I want my animals (goats, turkeys, pigs, ducks, geese and horses on top of the chickens) to be kept as naturally as possible, experiencing what it is to be that animal from times long passed, but I also know they require care to flourish, and because of that I can't just pitch them out to become wild. I could do a lot less with them in a warmer climate, that's for sure, and they could maintain their 75% self sufficiency year round, not just in the summer months.

My farm is my business, its how i feed my family and provide an income. I am moving towards doing as you desire and becoming self sufficient (my husband demands we not go off grid lol). I've done a lot of research into this stuff and I live it daily. When I offer information I'm not trying to patronize but to help. Every experience helps shape our own. 

I do think you'd have better luck with fowl suited to what you want. I'm not saying it wont work with chickens. But it likely won't work as you desire it to, based on my experiences. I also don't think it's legal or fair to the bird, but that is my opinion and worth what you pay for it.


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## robin416

And you can disagree all you want, that doesn't mean what you want is possible with any reasonable amount of success. You can not put a square peg in a round hole which is what you want to do. 

You can not, will not accept experienced voices. You are continuing to insist that what you want is feasible. Why bother asking another group of people who have given you reasons for why it won't work and just do it? Why are you asking at all? Maybe because in the back of your head you know this probably won't work?

Go ahead, report me. I don't care. Its not about you any way, its about the health and well being of the animals.


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## hellofromtexas

The game varieties are decent meat birds and very self sufficient. I order a large supply and put them in a brooder. You will only have to brood them once because the chicks you order have no mom. 

By large I mean 50-75 chicks. The amount being large allows room for error

Sent from my XT907 using Chicken Forum mobile app


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## fallen4shell

hellofromtexas said:


> You will only have to brood them once because the chicks you order have no mom.


What do you mean by this? I'm afraid I don't understand. I have little knowledge of traditional raising methods of meat birds if that sheds any light on my ignorance of what you meant by the above statement. *lol* Can you expound a bit in lay-terms for a newbie like me?


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## fallen4shell

robin416 said:


> And you can disagree all you want, that doesn't mean what you want is possible with any reasonable amount of success. You can not put a square peg in a round hole which is what you want to do.
> 
> You can not, will not accept experienced voices. You are continuing to insist that what you want is feasible. Why bother asking another group of people who have given you reasons for why it won't work and just do it? Why are you asking at all? Maybe because in the back of your head you know this probably won't work?
> 
> Go ahead, report me. I don't care. Its not about you any way, its about the health and well being of the animals.


reported...again


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## Apyl

This thread is closed.


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