# Fermented feeds?



## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Why do people do this!? Is it dangerous? Or can it be if done wrong??


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

To feed probiotics in a natural form to their livestock. It improves overall health and digestion, and changes the type of sugars in grains so that a monogastric animal can absorb and utilize them. 

The side effects of these changes are myriad and all good...there is no down side to FF. When they are in better health they lay better and thrive better, even in the face of environmental pathogens that would make other birds succumb to illness.

When they have better digestion and greater absorption, they are getting more nutrients from the feed given....which means less is moving uselessly through the bowels and being expelled onto the coop floor. There it can grow more bacteria and attract flies because the sugars and proteins are still in the fecal matter instead of in the bird. 

Because they have more nutrition from less feed, they are saving you money and they are also receiving the highest level of nutrition your feeds hold...which leads to better health and laying. 

So..better general health, better immune resistance, better laying, better digestions, less parasites due to a healthier bowel, better feathering and better molt recovery, better feed conversion, better coop environment because the feces smell better and don't attract flies nor feed bacteria as well. 

All that because you added water, stirred it, let the warmth and the natural yeasts from the air inoculate the feed and it fermented. 

It's easy, nearly idiot proof, costs nothing extra, and can only harm your chickens if you do not follow directions and neglect the mix...and the directions are simple: Feed, water, stir, leave lid cracked open to air, wait. Keep repeating this over and over as you feed out the feed from the bucket. 

Only someone very, very handicapped in understanding it could mess it up..and probably not even then.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I'm game! That was the best response that I could have hoped for. Assuming I can use a regular 
5 gallon bucket I will start today! Thanks for such a healthy response!!!!!!!


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

I would like to try fermenting the feed, but still have a couple of questions. I guess I don't really understand the 2 buckets process. It that just to empty out the extra water? Also, I have a hanging feeder , and was wondering what people put the fermented feed in. Could someone please post a video of their setup & maybe a little more info on the whole process.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

There is a huge thread on BYC on it..nearly 6K posts of people trying it and how they are managing it, what results they have gotten with it, etc. 

I know I'll never go back to just feeding feed as I did all these many years. FF is firmly tucked into my chicken husbandry now. Just goes to show you never quit learning!


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Bee you have thought me so much about keeping chickens... Should be "Bees" forum! Tee hee!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

LOLOL...I'm sure many would argue about that!


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## blblanchard (Mar 12, 2013)

jennifer said:


> Bee you have thought me so much about keeping chickens... Should be "Bees" forum! Tee hee!


No joke! I'm sure my husband is tired of hearing, "This guy named Bee on the chicken forum said...." Haha


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

He'll get even more tired of it when he hears that "Bee" is a woman!!!


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## blblanchard (Mar 12, 2013)

Bee said:


> He'll get even more tired of it when he hears that "Bee" is a woman!!!


Oops! Sorry! Hahaha


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## Sgtfirstwife (Nov 28, 2012)

Bee has a lot a words of wisdom. I do the FF in one 5 gallon bucket. I followed Bees method just modified it for my one bucket. It really is easy, a great way to make feed last longer, it is healthier for the birds, you can add things to the feed, like vitamins or other nutrients. It is a little bit more time consuming, but I feel it is worth it. I put the feed in big bowls. 
Some people love FF or others that don't.. It is personal choice. It is a personal choice.
Like your husband, my husband is wondering who this Bee person is. I just told him she is someone with some great knowledge about a simpler way of life, not only about poultry, but about all things. I have learned a lot from her. We all have our own opinions about things. I just take what I can use and leave the things I din't need or agree with for others.
Good luck with the FF. Ask away if you have questions.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I knew Bee was a gal! No question at all.. Lol.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

And I talk about all the info that bee gives with mu husband too! He loves it!


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Yay! Fermented feed is ready. I guess I will just use a couple large bowls to feed out of. On the hunt for some kind of long trough deal for the feed...


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## Clearcut23 (Apr 25, 2013)

I started doing the fermented feed this weekend. As a home brewer I have a general understanding of fermentation and I can't help but ask wont this get the chickens drunk? The yeast is going to eat whatever sugars are in the feed/water mix and poop alcohol and burp out CO2. I had some washed brew yeast laying around so I pitched it instead of waiting for the natural airborne yeast to take over. So far they love it. I work out of town all week which leaves the wife to care for them so ill have to see how thy are doing when I get home


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

jennifer said:


> Yay! Fermented feed is ready. I guess I will just use a couple large bowls to feed out of. On the hunt for some kind of long trough deal for the feed...


I have been using those red trough feeders that I fed our chickens when they were chicks. I took the cover off and it's worked out very well.


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## Regina L (Jul 6, 2013)

I LOVE BEE and how I've been learning!

Thank you


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Clearcut23 said:


> I started doing the fermented feed this weekend. As a home brewer I have a general understanding of fermentation and I can't help but ask wont this get the chickens drunk? The yeast is going to eat whatever sugars are in the feed/water mix and poop alcohol and burp out CO2. I had some washed brew yeast laying around so I pitched it instead of waiting for the natural airborne yeast to take over. So far they love it. I work out of town all week which leaves the wife to care for them so ill have to see how thy are doing when I get home


Nope..the acetobacter will consume the alcohol...over on the BYC FF thread someone who also does their own home fermenting measured the amount of alcohol produced by this fermentation and found it was so minimal as to be almost nonexistent. They laid out all the numbers so that those with a science degree could understand...but I didn't pay it any mind..I don't have one of those. 

I know a drunk when I see one and these chickens are never drunk...so that's how I know it doesn't produce alcohol.  I also examine livers of processed chickens and find the CX fed the FF were by far more healthy than those who had not, and that goes for the older cull hens as well.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

So you can use any feed? Just put it

In a bucket and ad wAter?


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

Bee said:


> There is a huge thread on BYC on it..nearly 6K posts of people trying it and how they are managing it, what results they have gotten with it, etc.
> 
> I know I'll never go back to just feeding feed as I did all these many years. FF is firmly tucked into my chicken husbandry now. Just goes to show you never quit learning!


Bee, I am not having great luck with my chickens eating this fermented feed. I tried adding a few pellets to the top to try to persuade them, but they just ate those. Also, how do I know how much to feed them? I don't want to waste it, and not sure how long to leave it in the dish if they don't eat it. They are used to having their feed available all day.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Don't give them any other choice of feeds and only feed out what they can consume in 15-30 min. You'll have to play around with that to see what they can put away in that time frame.

They get hungry enough, they'll eat it...once they get a taste for it, it will be difficult to get them to even look at the old way of feeding. Any change in diet is a transition, especially for older birds...just be patient, let them get a little hungry and they will practically attack you when you dish this stuff out as time goes along.


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

Bee said:


> Don't give them any other choice of feeds and only feed out what they can consume in 15-30 min. You'll have to play around with that to see what they can put away in that time frame.
> 
> They get hungry enough, they'll eat it...once they get a taste for it, it will be difficult to get them to even look at the old way of feeding. Any change in diet is a transition, especially for older birds...just be patient, let them get a little hungry and they will practically attack you when you dish this stuff out as time goes along.


I started giving the guinea keets about 2 days ago, & they wolf it right down! Thanks for the advice bee!


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## ONThorsegirl (Apr 23, 2013)

When you are fermenting these feeds, is your base feed mixed grain (mash) or a pelleted, crumble mix?

-Melissa


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

It doesn't matter..they all ferment equally well.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

What measurements do y'all use?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

no measurements...they are worthless...just dump stuff in a bucket and get 'r started!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Bee said:


> no measurements...they are worthless...just dump stuff in a bucket and get 'r started!


Well do I just fill it with water afterwards?


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

leviparker said:


> Well do I just fill it with water afterwards?


I started mine a week ago in a 5 gallon bucket. I put in a 2 qt pitcher of layer pellets, a 2 qt pitcher of grower crumbles, layer on another pitcher of pellets and another pitcher of crumbles until the bucket was half full. I then added ACV with mother...didn't really measure, maybe a cup or so. Then added enough warm water to fill up to the top and stirred with a yard stick. I've been feeding the adolescents and the layers the same mash and they love it!

It's been a week now and I've just kept adding feed and water to the bucket so that enough water covers it. I see little bubbles and its starting to have that beer smell


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

This is so odd to me. It sounds great and all. But im just not sure yet lol


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Levi...never saw anyone make bread? That's basically what is going on....except the yeast is being pulled from the air, like folks did it back in the old days. Instead of baking the bread when it has risen and absorbed the fluids added, we are feeding it out...it just looks like wet feed, smells like pickled kraut and increases the nutrition and probiotics of the feed. 

It's simple really...it is only complicated if you try to over think it. 

No worries...it's not for everyone. Some folks just like to open a bag and feed some feed and that's okay. 

Did it that way for years myself..but then decided to stop wasting money and all the while enjoy no smells in the coop, better feed, better laying, better everything that comes along with simply adding feed to water and letting it ferment.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I've been feeding the fermented feed in the afternoon outside of the run. They seem to gobble it up. I still have the hanging feeder within the coop for during the day. I haven't gotten a trough deal for the wet feed and just have large pans so they tend to dump it all over. They like both! That may be my routine here. Fermented feed in the pm and regular in the am. Seems to work for me!


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

Bee said:


> Don't give them any other choice of feeds and only feed out what they can consume in 15-30 min. You'll have to play around with that to see what they can put away in that time frame.
> 
> They get hungry enough, they'll eat it...once they get a taste for it, it will be difficult to get them to even look at the old way of feeding. Any change in diet is a transition, especially for older birds...just be patient, let them get a little hungry and they will practically attack you when you dish this stuff out as time goes along.


Lol. You just reminded me of how I used to feed my fish in an aquarium. .


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Bee said:


> Levi...never saw anyone make bread? That's basically what is going on....except the yeast is being pulled from the air, like folks did it back in the old days. Instead of baking the bread when it has risen and absorbed the fluids added, we are feeding it out...it just looks like wet feed, smells like pickled kraut and increases the nutrition and probiotics of the feed.
> 
> It's simple really...it is only complicated if you try to over think it.
> 
> ...


Okay. Thanks for the advice bee. I just don't want to ruin a bag of feed!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I usually don't make poultry recommendations to folks that result in a waste or loss of money. It was feed efficiency that led me to study upon the fermented feed in the first place...I'd not steer you wrong and cause you to waste feed/money. 

If you need more than my word on it, you can read all the testimonials and comments from others who started it based on how it did for my birds and are quite pleased...get ready for a long, long read:

http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/644300/fermenting-feed-for-meat-birds


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## Itsacutefuzzball (Mar 16, 2013)

You seem like you're beekissed on that forum... Just something I noticed.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Well...sort of...Beekissed, to be sure.


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## blblanchard (Mar 12, 2013)

There were maggots in my feed this morning. Ew! Has this happened to anyone else? Anyway to prevent this? Will they harm my chickens?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

No..they won't harm your chickens. No, I've never had that happen. Other folks prevent fruit flies from getting into the feed by placing a screen or netting over the bucket...someone said a pillow case slips over a 5 gal. bucket most perfectly.


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## blblanchard (Mar 12, 2013)

Bee said:


> No..they won't harm your chickens. No, I've never had that happen. Other folks prevent fruit flies from getting into the feed by placing a screen or netting over the bucket...someone said a pillow case slips over a 5 gal. bucket most perfectly.


Thanks! I will try that!


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

Bee said:


> No..they won't harm your chickens. No, I've never had that happen. Other folks prevent fruit flies from getting into the feed by placing a screen or netting over the bucket...someone said a pillow case slips over a 5 gal. bucket most perfectly.


I use a grease splatter protector that I got at the dollar store to cover my bucket. Works out great!


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## blblanchard (Mar 12, 2013)

Elfinworld said:


> I use a grease splatter protector that I got at the dollar store to cover my bucket. Works out great!


Good idea!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Or can I use it with my layers?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Yep...can use it for any fowl, no matter the age or type.


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

Bee said:


> Yep...can use it for any fowl, no matter the age or type.


Bee, I want to thank you for teaching us about fermented feeds. My chickens have been on the FF for the last two weeks and I CAN tell a huge difference, especially cleaning out their poop board! Their poops are firm and a lot less, and the odor is almost nonexistent.

So thank you so much!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Can I uses ACV that's doesn't have mother ?

Will it work the same?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

YW! Have you noticed an increase in the size of their yolks? Most report an increase in that..I was rather shocked over that little item. I had read the studies that reported an increase in the weight of the eggs and I guess I didn't think about what that meant....until I saw the difference in the yolks and realized that the extra weight of the eggs were in the increase to be found there!

This is a pic of my very smallest egg next to two large grade A from the store:










And a pic one lady took of her chicken's egg...one was laid before starting FF and and egg from the same hen, that was laid 10 days after starting FF:










I had some old birds that I had given to someone, only to come back later to check on them and find most of them dead and the rest very ill, loaded with parasites and just in horrible overall condition~my mistake in believing this person knew anything about chickens.

So, I took them back and started them back on correct chicken husbandry. I have quite a few pics of their before and after state of being....this is one set of such tranformations....

Before starting FF.....










Same bird.....2 wks after starting FF:










Same bird 7 wks after starting FF....not quite 2 mo. after coming home and getting on healthy soils, good food, sunshine and good forage.


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

That is AWESOME! I am hoping that will help ours out. They are a year and a half old (the layers) and are not laying quite as much. I have not noticed any larger yolks but i have not been paying much attention either.

Those pictures are just wonderful!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I have quite a few such pics of that old flock being restored to a good life and good health~they are all pretty remarkable. It was heart breaking to see them used so poorly and such a blessing to see them getting back to their free range, freedom filled and healthy life once again. 

Whenever I forget that they had ever had that bad time in their lives, I have only to look at those pics of their "sick" pics and then look out my window at how they are now and it makes me thank God for the chance to get them back from the hell they were in.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Can I use regulate ACV?


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Regular **


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

It won't do much for your FF at all, so there is no point. You don't really need it as your mix will pull vinegar yeasts from the air and inoculate the mix with it anyway, with time. 

No worries...


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Bee said:


> It won't do much for your FF at all, so there is no point. You don't really need it as your mix will pull vinegar yeasts from the air and inoculate the mix with it anyway, with time.
> 
> No worries...


Thank you. So without adding it, about how Long should I wait to feed it


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Wait until it looks and smells fermented. I think I described what that looked like in other parts of this thread...


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Bee said:


> Wait until it looks and smells fermented. I think I described what that looked like in other parts of this thread...


My mom brought me some braggs ACV. So I have a all batch sitting!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

leviparker said:


> My mom brought me some braggs ACV. So I have a all batch sitting!


A little batch* should it be submersed in water?


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## Chicka-Js (May 3, 2013)

Ok I jumped in last week and did it. The chickens love it !! I have a few questions. Is it ok that there looks like mold on top off the water? Also I have been putting a lid on it. It's not sealed but it is covered is that ok ?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

If you are stirring it daily, that mold is not a bad mold but the yeast cultures of the fermented fluid. It's all good...just stir it in. 

No, you don't have to have the feed submersed under water at all times, though when you first add fresh feed and water each time you refill the bucket, the water will stand over the feed until it absorbs. 

I posted some pics of how much moisture is usually on mine...I never keep it completely under water, but more of a peanut butter consistency. 

I leave a lid on mine but it's only snapped down on one side with the other side open to the air. It's not advisable to leave the lid sealed completely shut as the gases will build up and can spray you in the face when you open the lid.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Bee you are so very helpful and patient! Thank you for all your advice!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I love helping those who are interested in learning about chicken husbandry! It does my heart good when folks want to work at chickens instead of simply _having_ them.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I love this forum! Those poor chickens bee. That's just terrible. I've never seen any that bad off. I can't believe somebody would do that!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

That was just one pic...you should have seen the rest. Their story about the road back can be read here: http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/7...-horrors-anyone-want-to-follow-their-progress



















It broke my heart...I trusted those people and gave them the best of my best, as I was getting ready for being out of the country for a year.

But...God gave me a chance to get some of them back, though very few were still alive, and they are living out what is the rest of their productive life here in chicken heaven! Free, healthy, living like chickens should....doing all their chicken lives as hard as they can do them! LOL


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## Itsacutefuzzball (Mar 16, 2013)

Oh no! I'm so glad you managed to save them!

About fermented feed, how long would it take to ferment outside, in temps of 90-100?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I've never actually timed it, though the studies say that fermentation is started in the mix by 8-15 hours. Try it and let us know how long it took for you?


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## Itsacutefuzzball (Mar 16, 2013)

Ok! ....

...


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

Does fermented feed help prevent sour crop? One of our hens has what feels like a golf ball in her chest. She has had it a while, but acts normal She eats, drinks, & is social. I'm just not sure if that's what she has


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Yes, it can. But..if a bird is prone to it due to structural difficulties such as a prolapse, they may always have a problem. I'd massage that mass in her crop and give her some mineral oil to see if she can move it along the tubes. 

But...I'd also start FF.


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

Bee said:


> Yes, it can. But..if a bird is prone to it due to structural difficulties such as a prolapse, they may always have a problem. I'd massage that mass in her crop and give her some mineral oil to see if she can move it along the tubes.
> 
> But...I'd also start FF.


I started the ff about a week ago. How much mineral oil? Do I just massage it while she's upright? Not sure if she is just prone to it. We have only had her for about 3 months.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I'd give her a dropper full of the oil and let it sit for a bit and then massage her crop. If her crop has been prolapsed for a long time, it may never return to a healthy configuration and you may just have to live with it. 

If she is healthy otherwise, you could just leave things be after trying the massage and if it doesn't help...if she is having trouble maintaining good condition and weight, I'd cull her.


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

Bee said:


> I'd give her a dropper full of the oil and let it sit for a bit and then massage her crop. If her crop has been prolapsed for a long time, it may never return to a healthy configuration and you may just have to live with it.
> 
> If she is healthy otherwise, you could just leave things be after trying the massage and if it doesn't help...if she is having trouble maintaining good condition and weight, I'd cull her.


Thanks Bee. She seems to be very healthy. She is always the first to run to me for treats & drinks water as well. It seems to be very round and very hard. I will check it in the morning before I feed her & see if it is the same.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Could just be some kind of benign growth or tumor also.


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

Bee said:


> Could just be some kind of benign growth or tumor also.


That's kind of what I'm afraid of because she has only been laying for about 3 weeks & no changes in the eggs or anything else. She doesn't have any other symptoms of sour crop as far as I can tell. I guess I'll just see how she does. I read not to give them acv if they have sour crop, so I was just was wondering if she did have that, if the ff would be the same


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

It should be beneficial for it...sour crop is caused by the wrong kind of yeast growth in the digestive tract...the kind of yeast growth in the FF actually inhibits the overgrowth of that "wrong" kind. The FF has the beneficial microorganisms that will keep the digestive tract healthier, not make it worse. 

I've never had sour crop in my flocks all these many years and I have used ACV in the water for the past 4 years or so...so I don't know about what you read..but I don't think ACV could make something like that any worse than it already is.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

How much ACV per gallon?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

One glug!  I never measure...


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Bee said:


> One glug!  I never measure...


Saw that coming !


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Bee I read the blog on backyardchickens.. Wow. That's just amazing. This people should spend one day in that coop where your flock was. That's all it would take. And the birds were in there a year! Good Lord.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Yes...it was a wonder they even survived at their ages. I was so grateful to get some of them back, particularly a few of my favorites. Toby has a gimpy hip and I'm thinking it was because they kicked him..they had complained that he had cleaned their rooster's plow and so had to put their rooster out of the coop. 

Their rooster was the one I really felt sorry for...his feet are so horribly infested with leg mites that they looked like tree bark. It was horrible..I advised them of it, but they didn't seem to care much. 

But...I've seen much worse coop situations on chicken forums and these birds got feed and water, predator safe housing and the same necessaries that many birds get from what I've read. There are many birds out there living in bad conditions and I see their pictures on the forums..folks don't seem too ashamed to show small and airless coops, tiny dirty runs, bald and bleeding birds, scale mite so bad that toes are eaten clean off and extremely crippled birds. I often wonder how in the world they got that bad and why in the world anyone would show a pic of it...makes me want to shake them until their heads rattle.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

How could you treat them so poorly and enjoy their product. The eggs were probably not so great


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

They were annoyed that the chickens had stopped laying as much...couldn't seem to figure out why.  That's the only reason I got them back...now I'm giving away the eggs because we have too many to eat. 

Folks just aren't too bright nowadays, is all.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Bee said:


> They were annoyed that the chickens had stopped laying as much...couldn't seem to figure out why.  That's the only reason I got them back...now I'm giving away the eggs because we have too many to eat.
> 
> Folks just aren't too bright nowadays, is all.


You can say that again. Don't purchase animals if you aren't aware of the proper care necessary!


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

jaystyles75 said:


> That's kind of what I'm afraid of because she has only been laying for about 3 weeks & no changes in the eggs or anything else. She doesn't have any other symptoms of sour crop as far as I can tell. I guess I'll just see how she does. I read not to give them acv if they have sour crop, so I was just was wondering if she did have that, if the ff would be the same


Checked her this morning, and no lump! She must just eat a lot in the day. What a relief! Thanks for all the info Bee


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

They should be so ashamed In the least. I've see. A bad situation with a dog that was tied up on a 6ft chain. No food and water most the time. ( I bought a 5 gallon bucket and put in next to his dog house) I started feeding him once a day.. This dog lived next door and the owners never said a word. One day they were all loading up their truck to go camping... I asked about a petsitter and they said he would be fine. WHAT THE !!!!! Needless to say he found a new home that weekend and still they never said a word. Unbelievable. I think "Buddy" which is the name I gave him, had never been off that chain. He was the nicest dog ever! And he still is 7 years later


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I shouldn't say similar. A prime example of how cruel the human race can be.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

jennifer said:


> They should be so ashamed In the least. I've see. A bad situation with a dog that was tied up on a 6ft chain. No food and water most the time. ( I bought a 5 gallon bucket and put in next to his dog house) I started feeding him once a day.. This dog lived next door and the owners never said a word. One day they were all loading up their truck to go camping... I asked about a petsitter and they said he would be fine. WHAT THE !!!!! Needless to say he found a new home that weekend and still they never said a word. Unbelievable. I think "Buddy" which is the name I gave him, had never been off that chain. He was the nicest dog ever! And he still is 7 years later


I got a wonderful dog in just that manner once~except the people just packed up and moved away and left her tied to that 5 ft. chain and box~ and we kept her until she was too old and in pain to live a quality life. But, she never had to be on a chain ever again and she lived a full, productive and varied existence all those years~and our lives were enriched by hers. We thanked God that He brought her to us and so some things just work out for the benefit of good animals in the long run.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

The feed is now a creamy peanut butter consistency an smells like ACV


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Yay!!! Is it bubbly when you stir it? Lovely fermentation...now stand back and watch things change. It's almost like magic!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Bee said:


> Yay!!! Is it bubbly when you stir it? Lovely fermentation...now stand back and watch things change. It's almost like magic!


No bubbles yet. Should I wait go bubbles ?


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I had some white bubbles today. They loved it!


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Funny they like it on the ground not in the pan


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

leviparker said:


> No bubbles yet. Should I wait go bubbles ?


You don't really have to if you have the fermented smell...but I bet if you stir it, you will see some bubbles. Sometimes, when I open the bucket, I'll see little holes all over the top of the feed where gas bubbles have come up through the mix and escaped there.

Last winter I kept the FF bucket in my bedroom and I could hear it bubbling away on quiet nights...little pfffffft!s every now and again. Like it was farting!


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Lol! Bee what state are you in?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

WV...God's country, wild and woolly!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Haha that nasty! Ill wait until I for sure see bubbles. 

This is After stirring


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

At that consistency I would not expect bubbles. If you add water to it, I bet the bubbles are there.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Yup! I was just about to say that....a little TOO dry on that mix. Just add a little and stir it in. Then you'll see some bubbles!!


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I was gonna say mines very watery.. Maybe to watery? It's like liquid. I use a strainer.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

It had some liquid when I checked it and I saw a bubble. I went ahead an dished some out. They aren't sure how to eat it yet lol! They are nibbling on it though .


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Yeah...a little too watery. I'll post a few pics of good consistency of FF so that you can get an idea of the easiest consistency to keep and feed. When you first start out it's one of those things you have to play with a bit so you can get a feel for it. Another thing that will help is to drill holes in your scoop and some in the bottom of your scoop, to let off any excess moisture.










While in the feeder....


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Oh ya mines way to watery.. Thanks! That really helps. What is in yours? Do you use pellets and scratch?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

jennifer said:


> Oh ya mines way to watery.. Thanks! That really helps. What is in yours? Do you use pellets and scratch?


Sometimes, as in right now, I use straight layer mash and in other seasons when they need less nutrition, I mix it with whole grains such as barley, oats, BOSS, etc. It all depends on what time of year it is whether I change up the feed. Not big adjustments or trying to get some new and wonderful mix...just basic economics and seasonal needs.


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

Bee said:


> Sometimes, as in right now, I use straight layer mash and in other seasons when they need less nutrition, I mix it with whole grains such as barley, oats, BOSS, etc. It all depends on what time of year it is whether I change up the feed. Not big adjustments or trying to get some new and wonderful mix...just basic economics and seasonal needs.


All of my chickens are different ages. From 1 day to 3 years old. I am feeding the broody hen and her chicks just starter feed, and the rest of my chickens get a mixture of grower and layer feed in their fermented feed. Is that alright or would it be ok just using either grower feed or layer feed?

What about the babies and mama? Are they too young to be started on fermented feed?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Actually, the babies are the ones that need it most! Never too young to start it. You can just feed layer feed to the flock and it will be fine.


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

So do I make another batch just for the babies with starter feed? Or can they eat the same FF as the others?


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## Itsacutefuzzball (Mar 16, 2013)

Bee always says she starts the chicks on layer (making an assumption that she's a girl...) so I guess you can feed them the same thing.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Elfinworld said:


> So do I make another batch just for the babies with starter feed? Or can they eat the same FF as the others?


I mix everyone the same feed...it varies little in nutrition and it won't hurt any of them to be on layer. At least, not in my experience.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Bee is a woman lol


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## GratefulGirl (Sep 10, 2012)

Bee thank you for the details on ff. As soon as I can get to town I will buy the buckets & get er cookin!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I urge everyone to note the differences you see when you switch to FF, both good and bad, and tell them here so that others can learn. Take pics if you can because they speak a thousand....


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## blblanchard (Mar 12, 2013)

I had a pullet overcome wry neck! I know for certain it was because of the FF.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Wow! Tell us how you know...?


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

If I have chicks and 5 adult chickens can I mix chick and layer feeds? What if the chick is medicated?


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

leviparker said:


> If I have chicks and 5 adult chickens can I mix chick and layer feeds? What if the chick is medicated?


Why is your chick feed medicated?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

leviparker said:


> If I have chicks and 5 adult chickens can I mix chick and layer feeds? What if the chick is medicated?


You won't need that medicated feed at all...no one does. But, if you don't want to waste it and would rather feed it out, go ahead and throw it in the bucket. I'm not a big fan of inhibiting thiamine uptake, which the medicated feeds do, but it will soon be gone and you won't have wasted the money.

Then you can feed the correct level of thiamine the rest of their lives!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

If I have chicks and 5 adult chickens can I mix chick and layer feeds? What if the chick is medicated?


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Bee said:


> You won't need that medicated feed at all...no one does. But, if you don't want to waste it and would rather feed it out, go ahead and throw it in the bucket. I'm not a big fan of inhibiting thiamine uptake, which the medicated feeds do, but it will soon be gone and you won't have wasted the money.
> 
> Then you can feed the correct level of thiamine the rest of their lives!


Thank you! I forgot to get un medicated kind and I'm not gone throw out a 50 pound bag lol. Thank you!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

So mixing laying and chick starter is okay for all?


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

Thank you all! 

They are all on grower and layer mixed FF. The broody with the 2 babies also get a feeder with chick starter. The juvenile/ bantam coop gets the same FF and their regular feeder has some grower crumbles. The standard coop has the same FF and their feeder has layer feed. Everyone seems very happy.

We ave a black copper Marans who has been going thru molt last month. The coop has been full of black feathers everyday. She is finally getting her feathers back! Yay!


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## blblanchard (Mar 12, 2013)

Bee said:


> Wow! Tell us how you know...?


I bought her when she was four months old. When we got home, we noticed that her head kept turning backwards and she would walk around in circles. I gave her a little vitamin B complex and nutri drench every other day, but not as consistently as I should have. I only did that 3 or 4 times. I noticed she was getting better anyway, so I stopped giving it to her to see if she would recover without the added vitamins. All the while, I had been feeding her FF and I know that if I hadn't, she wouldn't have gotten better. I didn't give her any of the recommended medications I read about online and I didn't do a good job at giving her the vitamins. She's completely fine now!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

That's wonderful!!! Good news all around...I've read similar stories about different maladies, parasite infestations, gleet, etc. being aided by using the probiotics and increased nutrients to be found in the FF.


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## robinson4 (Jul 28, 2013)

Bee said:


> That's wonderful!!! Good news all around...I've read similar stories about different maladies, parasite infestations, gleet, etc. being aided by using the probiotics and increased nutrients to be found in the FF.


If I have 25 layers how much ff should I feed them each day? Do they still need dry feed? Very first post so don't eat me up please!....lol


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I think as much as the will eat up in 15 min


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

robinson4 said:


> If I have 25 layers how much ff should I feed them each day? Do they still need dry feed? Very first post so don't eat me up please!....lol


They don't need dry feed anymore...just the FF. I don't know what you use for a measure/scoop so it's hard for me to say...but you can just feed what can be cleaned up in 15-30 min and see how it goes from there.

Folks just have to experiment with it to see how it works out...it won't hurt for the FF to stay in the feeder overnight or such. It doesn't "go bad", though it may turn a little greyish looking with time.

When I have old FF in the feeder that didn't get eaten, I just scrape it out in the ground...they act like they haven't eaten in days and the old/new feed given is a pearl beyond price!

Chickens are funny that way....

If I find I'm having to clean out uneaten feed in the feeder before feeding, I adjust my feed amounts down until all food is getting cleaned up in a 24 hr period.


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

I have been putting half a folgers tin full in the feeder in the mornings, they clean it up in 10-15 minutes every time. 
They are almost Attacking me now for it, and it's only been a few days. Ha, they love the stuff.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

I'm gonna buy a lid for a my 5 gal. And start next week! Going out of town lol


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Mine were pecking on the pan that I use in the yard!!! Give me more!


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Has anybody who has started feeding FF noticed more energy in their chickens ? I didn't really notice until my husband said " man they are running wild" then I thought about it! They are going crazy.. They see the front door open and they bolt right towards me. They used to sorta waddle and wait..


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

Mine seemed to get flighty. I have one RIR who took of vertically and hovered like one of the humming birds for a moment. 
I did notice that my ladies are all getting gorgeous feathers now, not sure if its age and molt related or FF. don't care, I like it.


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

leviparker said:


> I'm gonna buy a lid for a my 5 gal. And start next week! Going out of town lol


You don't need to. Just get you one of those grease splatter preventer things from the pillar store. The one with mesh covering. That is what I use.

When I was feeding my chickens lady, a couple of them were jumping towards me, trying to et from my bucket as I was scooping into their feeder! Lol


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

jennifer said:


> Has anybody who has started feeding FF noticed more energy in their chickens ? I didn't really notice until my husband said " man they are running wild" then I thought about it! They are going crazy.. They see the front door open and they bolt right towards me. They used to sorta waddle and wait..


Yep! Many, many folks who start the FF report a general pep in the step to their flock and also notice gorgeous feathering after molt or, if their birds have been missing feathers, they tend to regrow very quickly.

That's called "health" boys and girls!!! LOL I saw some amazing things with my old sick flock that I got back from a friend...amazing recovery of feathering, health, laying, activity levels, etc.

I know I'll never go back to the old way of feeding. My flocks have always been healthy and never had illness, but this seems to be like putting a nitrous oxide booster system on the feeder....all good in all ways! Zoom! Zoom!


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## robinson4 (Jul 28, 2013)

powderhogg01 said:


> Mine seemed to get flighty. I have one RIR who took of vertically and hovered like one of the humming birds for a moment.
> I did notice that my ladies are all getting gorgeous feathers now, not sure if its age and molt related or FF. don't care, I like it.


Mixed up a batch tonight! Hooe all goes well!


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Is there a site I can refer to seasonal feeding ? I would assume it would change as the weather does and as it gets cold..


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

Elfinworld said:


> You don't need to. Just get you one of those grease splatter preventer things from the pillar store. The one with mesh covering. That is what I use.
> 
> When I was feeding my chickens lady, a couple of them were jumping towards me, trying to et from my bucket as I was scooping into their feeder! Lol


I started the ff almost 2 weeks ago, and my chickens go crazy for it too. I was nervous thinking they were starving, and I wasn't feeding them enough. I'm still trying to figure it all out. It seems they eat more some days than others.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

I first gave some to them in the backyard and my dog starting eating it lol!


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

leviparker said:


> I first gave some to them in the backyard and my dog starting eating it lol!


I've been wondering if I should start doing this For my dog. If it is so good for chickens, it makes me wonder if it is good for them too.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Over on BYC, there are folks who are fermenting for all their monogastric animals and report wonderful things. Dogs that no longer have hot spots and stomach disorders, allergies and such. 

My dog loves it and all chicken feed, so I feed in the coop...once a year or so I'll dump out some of the scoby from my bottom bucket to make room for more water space and the cat, the dog and the chickens will actually lick it off the grass...they will scratch that patch of grass down to the soil trying to consume it all. 

I do seasonal feeding, though I don't get too complicated with it. It's just something I've picked up over the years~ first for economical reasons, and then as I came to study on natural bird life. 

That has been the whole goal of my husbandry down through the years...to establish natural bird life..as much as possible for domesticated birds. I find their quality of life is superbly peaceful, stress free and day drifts into day without problems when the chickens get to be a chicken out on forage, in open air cooping, with good soils and composted litter like a forest floor underfoot in the coop. 

Good habitat and natural nutrition leads to good health and leads to a good life...for the birds and for me. No labor, no stress over sick birds, no bad smells, no added expenses...just pretty birds on green grass and brown eggs in my basket.


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## Regina L (Jul 6, 2013)

If the chickens love it, my dogs love it...
Hmmmm... Maybe I'll be the next in line! 
I could certainly benefit from some probiotics too LOL
Don't try this at home, guys!
Let me come back and report I'm still alive (IF I have the nerve to do it)!!
Lol


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Folks out in the country have been consuming fermented foods since time began..it's actually one of the first kinds of food preservation, along with pickling and drying. If you are eating cheese, you are consuming a product that has been fermented at some point. Buttermilk is one of my favorites...can't get enough of it. 

I had an aunt that had cancer and could only stomach buttermilk for a long time and a few other foods..her doctors felt like the buttermilk was the only thing that kept her alive and healthier for so long...then she lost her appetite for even that and she went sharply into a decline with increased metastisis to other areas. They called it the Buttermilk Miracle Diet!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Sour kraut is fermented!


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## kaufranc (Oct 3, 2012)

We are trying the FF! Our Silkies love it!


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

I was already convinced, but was having trouble finding MACV. I headed off today for a health food grocery nearly 10 miles from home, and FOUND it. Since the hawk family is still hanging around, can't let the girls try ranging, so I will keep a little dry in the hanger, but mixed up nearly a gallon and letting it age until tomorrow, then I will give them about half and add more to the bucket. Oh yeah, I've got a can of applesauce to get rid of, so I might as well put in bucket now! (already threw in some corn grits and instant oatmeal)... ooo, I bet they would like the addition of powdered nonfat dry milk too!!!


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

kjohnstone said:


> I was already convinced, but was having trouble finding MACV. I headed off today for a health food grocery nearly 10 miles from home, and FOUND it. Since the hawk family is still hanging around, can't let the girls try ranging, so I will keep a little dry in the hanger, but mixed up nearly a gallon and letting it age until tomorrow, then I will give them about half and add more to the bucket. Oh yeah, I've got a can of applesauce to get rid of, so I might as well put in bucket now! (already threw in some corn grits and instant oatmeal)... ooo, I bet they would like the addition of powdered nonfat dry milk too!!!


Lol! Sounds like you are cleaning out the pantry! I bet they will love it!


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

Oh yeah, I think they have already learned to try anything I bring out to them (watermelon, cantaloupe, grapes, blueberries, leaves from the healthy lambsquarter growing all around the yard, fresh oregano, canned spinach that I rinsed to get rid of the salt, and more).


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I took the dry hanging feeder out today .. I was slowly introducing it. To my approval they didn't really eat much of it this morning. When I let them out tonight they went crazy over the FF. I did fill the new trough full this morning. That's prob why they didn't like the old dry stuff.. I am super excited! Better health!


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Considering switching to FF. a few questions I've run across :

It's Texas. It's damn hot. Will I be able to leave my bucket outside at 100 degrees? I keep my feeds in a metal ship/truck storage container, and it can get 120* in there. Will this do more than speed up my fermenting process? 

I free range daily, and have a hanging feeder for dry pellets. Girls don't eat much, it's 5 gal, and I fill it about every 7-8days. Will FF get eaten even if they are free ranging?

Bucket method - straining bucket, or just put it all in one bucket? I've got lots of 5 gal livestock water buckets laying around. Would like to start with minimal expense. I have Layena pellets, rolled oats, and alfalfa pellets. Would this mixture be appropriate?


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

I've only been using FF for a week but I'm loving it. I would do the 2 bucket approach. Not for straining but because the water that collects in the lower bucket speeds up the fermentation. 
I'm sure the heat will boost up the fermentation process as well. 
As for the feed itself, I can not say much, I mixed my layer crumbles with a little scratch. They seem to love it.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

I free range and they ate it up on their own time .


It's not there for long. I haven't done the 5 gallon yet. So I can't say much. But in sure the heat will quicken the process.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

ShowBarnMom said:


> Considering switching to FF. a few questions I've run across :
> 
> It's Texas. It's damn hot. Will I be able to leave my bucket outside at 100 degrees? I keep my feeds in a metal ship/truck storage container, and it can get 120* in there. Will this do more than speed up my fermenting process?
> 
> ...


Folks in your climate have been keeping their FF in a cool basement or garage to keep it a little cooler. It does speed up the fermentation, so one solution is to mix up less for each batch. When it got hotter here (90+) I just mixed half buckets at a time that could be fed out in a few days...not that increased fermentation is necessarily bad but it starts to really break down and get a little slimy when it gets too deeply fermented. The chickens eat it all the same but the sugars are consumed so quickly in the increased metabolic process of the fermentation that one would have to keep feeding it to keep the mix from growing some less beneficial molds on the top, I'm thinking. Mixing up smaller portions in my big bucket helped me get past the worst of the heat this year...I keep my bucket in the coop.

I use the two bucket system but not for straining..I mix mine so thick that it doesn't require straining. I just use the bottom bucket as a reservoir for my scoby.

Mine free range all the time and in every season..I only feed once a day in the evening. I only feed what they can clean up by the next morning. Most is consumed at the initial feeding. This way the birds are filling up on the better nutrition of forage all day and only using my feed as a supplement....saves me money, the birds are healthier when not fed an all grain diet and they go to bed with their bellies full if they didn't have a successful hunting day.

I've watched them at feeding time...they usually take several mouthfuls and then hit the range again for a couple of hours before dark... and then come back later at dusk and clean up the rest.

Pretty much any feed mix seems to be compatible with FF except feeds with fish meal as the source of protein...though it will still ferment all the same, folks report a very foul odor from the fermentation of the fish meal. Most using fish meal will add it as a top dressing now to avoid that stench.


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Bee said:


> Folks in your climate have been keeping their FF in a cool basement or garage to keep it a little cooler. It does speed up the fermentation, so one solution is to mix up less for each batch. When it got hotter here (90+) I just mixed half buckets at a time that could be fed out in a few days...not that increased fermentation is necessarily bad but it starts to really break down and get a little slimy when it gets too deeply fermented. The chickens eat it all the same but the sugars are consumed so quickly in the increased metabolic process of the fermentation that one would have to keep feeding it to keep the mix from growing some less beneficial molds on the top, I'm thinking. Mixing up smaller portions in my big bucket helped me get past the worst of the heat this year...I keep my bucket in the coop.
> 
> I use the two bucket system but not for straining..I mix mine so thick that it doesn't require straining. I just use the bottom bucket as a reservoir for my scoby.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bee. That's kinda how I thought you would answer. But just wanted some verification.


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

What is scoby?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

*SCOBY* is an acronym for _symbiotic colony of bacteria and yeast_.[1]
Examples include:


Ginger beer plant
Kefir
Kombucha[2]
Mother of vinegar
Tibicos
Sourdough


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

I started my first batch. Used about half feed scoop of layer pellets and little less in alfalfa. Water over the top. Then I went and washed cows. About an hour and Half later, had completely soaked up water and was dry crumbles. . It's hot in Texas. I added a glug of ACV and more water. It looks like this now.

By tomorrow morning during rounds it'll be soaked for about 18 hrs. Is this long enough?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

You'll have to wait and see! It'll be a surprise!


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Lol! I am sure it will be. Considering its 95 in the barn where I'm keeping it.


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## piglett (Jun 21, 2012)

got my 1st batch started today
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad117/piglett2195/F FEED/Picture021_zps1aed4b92.jpg?t=1375392770

put some ACV into the bottom of a 5 gallon pail
added the feed (pellets)
added warm water
the water was quickly sucked up
added a couple more cups of water
here is my question: is it better to have a little extra water in your mix or to have a rather dry looking mix? we have the plastic pail in the kitchen (it's 75f in there)
how long before i can start feeding some to the flock?
how often do you stir?

thanks
piglett


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

I go for a mash potatoe consistency. I think a slightly more liquid mix would save more feed, lot of bang for the buck with the thick mix.


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

I fed out my first scoop this morning. By lunch the big pen had eaten most of theirs. Grow out pen Hasn't touched theirs :/


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

piglett said:


> got my 1st batch started today
> http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad117/piglett2195/F FEED/Picture021_zps1aed4b92.jpg?t=1375392770
> 
> put some ACV into the bottom of a 5 gallon pail
> ...


That's entirely up to you...sometimes mine is dryer and sometimes more moist, depending on how much water to feed I've added. If I find it too soupy when I go to feed, I'll add extra after I've dished out of it. If I find it too dry, I may add a little moisture to it. I've found it's easier to get the right consistency when you add more water to a dryer mix than it is to try and thicken up a soupy one.

You can stir once or twice a day, your preference, but I'd advise at least once. You can feed it when it's reached fermentation...by sight and smell you should be able to know..when it no longer smells sweet like feed and starts to smell a little soured or pickly, bubbles when you stir it or has a thin layer of grey or white film on the top, sometimes with little holes in it where the gas bubbles escaped.


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

My random thought - I like the idea of feeding mine a little wetter. (The veterinary education in me, I blame.) it's hot in Texas, and that extra fluid intake can never hurt. You do the same with cats that don't drink enough water.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

The only problem with that is some report messier butts when they feed the sloppier FF as the birds don't have much control over fluid intake at that point and often consume too much fluids merely to get to the feed. 

Birds already consume more fluids during hot weather and have more fluid in their stool from it, but making them consume even more can just heighten that affect. Wet nasty butts in high temps and humidity isn't desirable if you can avoid it.


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Hmm, hadn't run across that issue in mammals. Will have to study that in my birds.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I walked out with about 6 cups FF. they don't like it in the bowls or trough feeder.. On the ground.. Hope that's ok..... They love it! They eat for about 5 min and then find bugs come back and eat the rest. I discontinued the regular pellets and I will tell you what... No more stinky poo! No flies and happy flock. I'm seriously excited!!! I got my first maran egg today. Yellowest yolk I've ever seen. 3 weeks on FF and its turning out superb. Thanks BEE!!!!!!!!


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Here it is!! So happy for the chocolate egg!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Oooooo, what lovely eggs!!! Love that dark color...something in my mind fools me into thinking that the brown eggs just taste better, though I know they do not. Maybe I associate them with chocolate? 

Jennifer, so glad you are loving the FF! You'll have a hard time ever going back now...it's too nice of a feeling to have a coop that doesn't smell like chickens.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

ShowBarnMom said:


> My random thought - I like the idea of feeding mine a little wetter. (The veterinary education in me, I blame.) it's hot in Texas, and that extra fluid intake can never hurt. You do the same with cats that don't drink enough water.


Are you a vet?


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## fargolady (Oct 18, 2012)

I have a question we have some meat chickens and turkeys that we are raising can they have the FF also? 
Our egg layers get some mash from the local brewers and they love it. 
Thank you for the information


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## piglett (Jun 21, 2012)

fargolady said:


> I have a question we have some meat chickens and turkeys that we are raising can they have the FF also?
> Our egg layers get some mash from the local brewers and they love it.
> Thank you for the information


Yes FF will work well with meat birds too.
how many do you have at your place?

piglett


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

leviparker said:


> Are you a vet?


Registered technician. 10 years in clinics, 1 year so far in zoos.


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

Hmmmm, I see posts from beginners (I'm one too...) about using ACV in the mash, just making sure that it's the raw ACV w/mother. Don't get me wrong, regular ACV is still great, a tonic, but doesn't get the fermentation going. If you aren't using MACV you aren't getting the culture starter. Now natural yeast is in the air, and an uncultured mash will likely get a good yeast culture going, producing alcohol as well as a lot of other stuff, and natural occuring vinegar spores from the air (like the yeast) will take root, and must like the fermentation alcohol (hence the problem w/wine turning to vinegar) but adding MACV gets the fermentation off in the right direction fast. I have added powdered milk and some spoiled cream into mine, and right now it smells like...yogurt? (BTW, yogurt cultures best at 90 F) Also, remember to start the next batch with some of the old batch and you won't have to keep adding MACV after a few batches (YMMV, depends on how big your batch and how long it takes you to go through it, the older the more fermented). There are bound to be details I'm not aware of, just sayin'.


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## fargolady (Oct 18, 2012)

I started some today can't wait to feed it. We have 40 meat birds and 8 turkeys. This is our first time doing this they sure grow fast.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

fargolady said:


> I have a question we have some meat chickens and turkeys that we are raising can they have the FF also?
> Our egg layers get some mash from the local brewers and they love it.
> Thank you for the information


It works especially well on meat birds as they tend to have diarrhea from their high intake of feed and water, plus their increased metabolism. These stools are horribly stinky and moist and can make meat birds awful to raise. Not to mention the constant diarrhea puts them at risk of heart attack from the electrolytes they are constantly losing.

The FF changes that whole picture...no loose stools, no stink, no high water consumption, increased activity levels and mobility, increased health, increased weight gain on minimal feed costs.

It was because of meat birds that I even first researched the fermentation of the feeds and found some studies and decided the results could be applicable to my meaties as well. And it was..in spades! I can show you some videos of some CX that are the best foragers of any chickens I've ever owned, with activity and mobility that defy their reputation as Frankenbirds.

The meat was also the most flavorful...with the rich, nutty flavor one gets from mature DP birds, with a good texture as well.


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

It's true, chocolate-looking eggs get the mouth watering. Just imagine an easter basket full of hard-boiled "chocolate" eggs!!!!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

When I was selling eggs, that's when I would get the most orders..people would buy 3-4 doz at a time at Easter. I guess they just wanted that brown lovely because I'm not sure how dye takes to brown eggs?


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

Here are some update pictures of some of my birds after 3 weeks on FF. I wish I had thought about taking pictures of them 3 weeks ago so you all can see the huge difference. Mind you, a couple of my birds still look rough, but they are acting much peppier!

1st picture is Pepper out golden comet. She was molting a bit. She didn't have any feathers on her back and around her neck. Now you can see her back feathers are coming in nicely and half her neck has feathers. The other half is trying to catch up.

2nd picture is Deviled our black copper Marans. She still looks rough because its a bad molt, but 3 weeks ago the only feathers she had were on her wings and a couple if tail feathers sticking up not knowing what to do. She is now mostly feathered. Her belly and head are growing feathers in patches.

The rest are pictures of our hens free ranging. So thank you Bee and everyone else for introducing me to this wonderful way of feeding!


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

I think Deviled has a theme song, looking at her, I hear Linda Rondstat sing "poor poor pitiful me"


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

kjohnstone said:


> I think Deviled has a theme song, looking at her, I hear Linda Rondstat sing "poor poor pitiful me"


I know, right? Lol! Poor girl is pitiful! It was SO MUCH worse and I really wished I would've taken some pics then. Maybe in about 3 weeks I will post updated pics to show the difference.


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## Itsacutefuzzball (Mar 16, 2013)

Hmm... Just a thought, what would happen if we fermented OUR food?!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Itsacutefuzzball said:


> Hmm... Just a thought, what would happen if we fermented OUR food?!


Sour kraut , cheeses and buttermilk have been fermented


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

Itsacutefuzzball said:


> Hmm... Just a thought, what would happen if we fermented OUR food?!


Yogurt, Kefir, BEER, WINE, MEAD, ALE


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

It's all beneficial...good for what ails ya!


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## GratefulGirl (Sep 10, 2012)

Ok so started "cooking" first batch of FF at 11:00 this morning fed my twelve 10 week old pullets at 7:00 this evening. They gobbled it up like they hadn't been fed in 2 days! It seemed too thick from the pics I've seen & didn't smell fermented. I also dished up too much but I will tweak all that as I go along. I am really excited for my little cross beak because she was actually able to eat it all by herself! Yay! Previously all she could eat was soft foods with her chick starter & grit mixed in & she sorta scraped it off my finger. I will be documenting her growth because she is now way behind her flock mates but now I expect she will catch up! Thanks Bee for introducing me to FF. And thanks to all for sharing your experiences.


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## jmc0319 (Sep 16, 2012)

I am very interested in fermented feed. Can some point me toward the directions and also the benefits. Lastly, is it good to add ACV to their water on a daily basis?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

The directions should be on this thread..near the beginning. If feeding FF, you no longer need ACV in the water but if it keeps your water cleaner, it won't hurt a bit.


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## jmc0319 (Sep 16, 2012)

Bee said:


> The directions should be on this thread..near the beginning. If feeding FF, you no longer need ACV in the water but if it keeps your water cleaner, it won't hurt a bit.


Thanks a lot Bee. If I do add it to water what is the ratio please


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

It doesn't really matter...if you add too much the birds won't want to drink it, so just add less next time. I just add a glug.


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## jmc0319 (Sep 16, 2012)

Bee said:


> It doesn't really matter...if you add too much the birds won't want to drink it, so just add less next time. I just add a glug.


A glug it will be. Thanks a lot Bee


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## piglett (Jun 21, 2012)

fed some of my 1st batch of FF to my layer flock
they cleaned it rite up
we have 2 five gallon buckets what we will run on
just started the second bucket tonight

now will the fermenting process slow way down or even stop if i put some in the fridge?
the reason i ask is we will be out of town for 3 day at the end of the month
was going to have my uncle come check on everyone once a day while we are away
& just feed them laying pellets for those days to make thinks easy for him
telling him about 2 buckets of FF might just muddy the water.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

You don't need to put the buckets in the fridge or anything like that...you can just put out three days worth of FF just like you would dry feed. That's what I do when I leave for 3-4 days. My trough feeder will hold 3 days worth of feed, so I just fill it up and take off. 

If you put it in the fridge it will slow things down but they will come right back to working strength when brought back to room temps again.


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

My flock of 10 will just keep eating and eating the stuff. I think if I put out more then 1 days worth it would still be eaten in a few minutes. They are crazy for the stuff.


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

It appears everyone has finally accepted FF. I'm putting out about 3 cups at a time. It's gone by the middle of the day. I put more out in the evenings as well. Pretty sure I have seen everyone eat some. The grow out pen has 4 14 week old birds, and they are eating roughly 6 cups a day. I'm considering increasing theirs due to the fact they seem starving. The big pen has 9 adult birds, and they are eating the same. But aren't acting like they want to eat me.


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

I use a coffee can to dish out to 10 adults and they always act like they are going to eat me. I've even done a milk jug turned scoop. Devoured the stuff in mere minutes. I bet they would eat the 5 gallons in a day


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Nah...not in my experience. Birds will eat what they have when they are hungry and some confined to the coop may overeat but this is a temporary situation that only lasts 3 days.

I do the same for my dog...I leave him 3 days of food and I know he eats all of it the first day. That means he has to live off that nutrition for the next three days and he seems to fare very well...he's not down to ribs by the time I get back and he's not a sausage dog like I'm sure he is the first day I leave. He's just right..finally having expelled the 3 days of food out of his system.

Same for the birds...they might overeat the first day and clean up the rest the second day...by the third day they are having to walk off that overage and it's probably best if they don't have any food at that time!

If you know what they eat each day and only put out those amounts x 3, it's no different than if you had fed their normal amounts each of those days...the same level of nutrition over the same number of days. How they portion it out is _their _problem!


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## drob12985 (Jul 6, 2013)

I put feed into half gallon Ball jars last night and started the first days batch. I added a little acv in with it. Is it better to use acv or just water by itself in the process?


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

Ok. I'm in! I read most of this thread last night. Went right to the store this morning to get ACV and an extra jug to start making my own. Got the frozen juice too and my 2 buckets. I only have one question since my brain was so overloaded last night. 
I can do the FF with layer PELLETS right? And I plan on adding in whole grains as I can get them.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

That's up to you...personal preference. I do the first time I ever make a batch so as to keep it acidic until the LABs colonize but a lot of folks don't do that, as the mix will pull vinegar yeasts from the air anyway. I just do it as a jump start but it's not really essential to the process.


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

Nvm. I've Gwen retreading and see a few post thst have used pellets. Thanks!!! I'm so excited.


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks Bee. You are so knowledgable and helpful. Thanks for having patience with all of us.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

YW...it's fun to help others get ahold of something good! No need to hog the info and not spread the good news, ya know?


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## piglett (Jun 21, 2012)

drob12985 said:


> I put feed into half gallon Ball jars last night and started the first days batch. I added a little acv in with it. Is it better to use acv or just water by itself in the process?


poke a hole in the lid, if not your going to have problems

good luck
piglett


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## piglett (Jun 21, 2012)

amyhill said:


> Nvm. I've Gwen retreading and see a few post thst have used pellets. Thanks!!! I'm so excited.


the pellets break rite apart so yes they work well.


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## drob12985 (Jul 6, 2013)

piglett said:


> poke a hole in the lid, if not your going to have problems
> 
> good luck
> piglett


I thought you wanted to keep air out of your mix?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Nope...the moisture does that anyway and if you cap it you will have some gas build up that can explode FF in your face when you open it.


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## drob12985 (Jul 6, 2013)

Bee said:


> Nope...the moisture does that anyway and if you cap it you will have some gas build up that can explode FF in your face when you open it.


Thanks for the knowledge, that would've made for a very bad first try lol


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## robinson4 (Jul 28, 2013)

So I have made the mash and the chickens love it..in fact I can not walk across the yard without it looking like march of the chickens. My question is do I keep adding water until it is like chicken soup? No pun intended. I am using a layers feed from a local feed mill. I make it watery and let it sit and when I come back it is always grown. I am using the 2 bucket method, but water does not exactly run out with the layers feed. I have a lot of holes that I drilled with a 3/32 drill bit. Any suggestions?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

No, it doesn't have to be soupy and you'll have a much better time of it if it isn't. Most just stir it and feed it after the feed has absorbed most of the liquid. As long as it is moist and you stir it each time you feed, it will stay well. 

I'm not sure about "running out" and what you mean by that...the feed is generally scooped out of the top bucket and the buckets are not generally pulled apart for any reason except for a periodic cleaning out of flour residue in the bottom of the scoby reservoir.


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

And how do you feed it? I must be confused. I started feeing my girls today with it. Put more layer pellets in to repla e what I used and covered it with water... Let it set a few... Added a but more water and stirred. Is that feeding it?


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## drob12985 (Jul 6, 2013)

Here's my setup


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## robinson4 (Jul 28, 2013)

It feeds great and the chickens love it. I was just under the impression that the FF was suppose to be covered in water.


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## robinson4 (Jul 28, 2013)

drob12985 said:


> Here's my setup


Are you using whole or partially ground grains? Cause mine looks like oatmeal.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

robinson4 said:


> It feeds great and the chickens love it. I was just under the impression that the FF was suppose to be covered in water.


I'm sorry...I meant feed it to the birds. You only have to replace fresh feed to the mix when you almost run out.

I'm not sure why you are using jars to mix up such small quantities...but that's a lot more work than anyone ever needs to do to make fermented feed. It's just a simple dumping of feed into a bucket, mix in water above the level of the feed and let it sit and ferment. Stir a couple of times to keep the feed on the top moistened by mixing it with the more moist feed in the middle..feed it out when it is fermented.

I'm not sure if I am not explaining it well or if the pictures are not clear but for some reason everyone seems to misunderstand this process....I'm going to try to get some video of the next time I replenish my bucket so that everyone can see just how simple this thing really is but jars, water over the feed at all times, running out or straining is just not necessary...none of it.


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## robinson4 (Jul 28, 2013)

My feed is moist so I am good to go! Thank you!


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## drob12985 (Jul 6, 2013)

This is my experimental first try at it. I have a couple of buckets once I know what I'm doing. I just didn't want to waste alot of feed if I wasn't doing it right. That's why I'm using small quantities in jars


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

That's a good idea! I can see where one wouldn't want to waste a bunch of feed if they didn't like the process. I tend to forget that others are more cautious than I..I'm sort of a study for a good bit on it, formulate a plan and then jump in with both feet and make a big splash!


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## fargolady (Oct 18, 2012)

We jumped into it the other day lol
Feed the first FF on Sunday the birds loved it so we started 2 more buckets. Thank you for all the info Bee.


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## GratefulGirl (Sep 10, 2012)

I still don't smell any fermentation after 2 days. Could the slight amount of salt from the water softener delay the process? I am using pantyhose to cover the top. Buckets are in the garage where temps are between 80 - 88 degrees. Chicks aren't gobbling it up like the did the first time.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I'm not sure about that...a lot of fermentation takes place in brine, so I'm doubting it's the salt. I've never had that problem because I'm always backslopping with the scoby so mine ferments quickly and is ready to feed by the next day in temps of 50 or above. 

Mother vinegar seems to help speed the process along and I can only guess it's because it creates an acid environment that slows the growth of the wrong kind of bacteria so that right kind can colonize more quickly.


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

Mine wasn't bubbling like unthought it should so I put another glug of the ACV with the mother in the scoby last night. Bubbling away this morning.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

A glug???? Gal after my own heart! That's the same measurement I use!  Well..except when I need more and then I use a glorp.


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

I learned from the best....


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

I cook the same way... I can relate. Lol


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## GratefulGirl (Sep 10, 2012)

I will try another glorp of ACV. Thanks y'all!


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

I've got a smell to mine, but it isn't pleasant. But it's not moldy smelling either. I also don't care for most fermenting foods humans eat either. So I'm assuming that's why I don't find it pleasant? The chickens think its fabulous, so who am I to question? Lol


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Could be! I don't mind the smell, having been raised on various forms of fermented foods...my granny's cellar was plumb full of crocks of this or that pickled thing. That's where I learned to love pickled corn.. heavenly! 

So..when I found commercial studies done in other countries on feeding fermented grains, it just seemed like a natural thing to do. I guess that's why I didn't really have to ask anyone how to do it, I just came up with a plan and jumped on it. It's basically the same process I've known all my life but without the addition of salt for the pickling.


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

My girls going at it an day 2. Sema to be a success.


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Needing to add more









My mixture of laying pellets, oats, an alfalfa pellets.









Added a few cups









Added water to cover









Stirred to mix old and new









About an hour later. Added a little more water and will feed out tomorrow morning.


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Put this together for some visual aid. Not as good as some others, but gives people an idea that its not rocket science and doesn't take a ton of time or effort.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

That last step is something I don't do...adding more water. I leave mine as is when it has absorbed the water and just stir it every day to remoisten the top layer of feed. 

Great visual though!!! Thank you for posting these pics! 

Later you might want to move to a smooth sided bucket so you can keep the sides scraped down, as it can start to grow a little mold if the feed is left out of the moisture of the mix.


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

The plan is to move to a two bucket system, once I knew the birds would like it. I do wash down the sides each time I add water. Keeps it from sticking.

I add water as needed. It was super dry, this heat is really making it absorb fast lol. Some times I do, or don't, depends on how the mix looks. I like mine more pudding than mashed potato. Mmmmm food.









Haven't heard any complaints though. All the pans are typically clean each time I feed.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

I made my batch yesterday! This time in a big bucket.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I was doing the same. Over thinking it. Just put dry food in bucket. Poor water over it. Stir. Lay sit for a few days. Feed and replace dry into bucket as needed. My hens seem to want more and more. I haven't decided on if I'm feeding enough. Still working out the kinks. Can chickens just be over fed? Every time I scoop it out they are ready. They free range after 3pm now. But they still wan the FF all the time! It's like I scoop it out and they just keep eating.


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

jennifer said:


> I was doing the same. Over thinking it. Just put dry food in bucket. Poor water over it. Stir. Lay sit for a few days. Feed and replace dry into bucket as needed. My hens seem to want more and more. I haven't decided on if I'm feeding enough. Still working out the kinks. Can chickens just be over fed? Every time I scoop it out they are ready. They free range after 3pm now. But they still wan the FF all the time! It's like I scoop it out and they just keep eating.


Mine are the same way. I'm afraid I'm starving them


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Ya that's what I'm worried about. I had them free feeding before. Hmmmmmm. Bee help!


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

I don't really have anything to compare with the ff myself. We started the ff about 3 weeks ago, and that's when the girls started to lay. Yesterday we go 6 new ladies. Not sure how many of them are laying 2 so far today. I'm taking pictures of them, and putting the first eggs I get from them aside. Will compare in 2 weeks. Ill keep you posted! I did notice the coop stinks today. We had 3 faveralles, and just got another. Her comb is very pale compared to ours. Not sure if it is her age, or my girls are just healthier. Can't wait to see the difference









New faveralle









Some of the other girls


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## kaufranc (Oct 3, 2012)

Jay, I love your Favorelles!


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

kaufranc said:


> Jay, I love your Favorelles!


Thanks! Me too. They are very sweet. People rave about the egg laying, but we have yet to see that. Not sure how old they are, but we got them in late may, and they told us they should lay within a few weeks. I think we've bottom maybe 3 eggs in total so far from them. I'm guessing its from just one, & the other 2 haven't started.


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

jaystyles75 said:


> Thanks! Me too. They are very sweet. People rave about the egg laying, but we have yet to see that. Not sure how old they are, but we got them in late may, and they told us they should lay within a few weeks. I think we've bottom maybe 3 eggs in total so far from them. I'm guessing its from just one, & the other 2 haven't started.











A few more


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Those are pretty! I've never seen those before. Where did you buy them?


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## kaufranc (Oct 3, 2012)

We got 1 as our Exotic chick from McMurray. I love him! He is so goofy and friendly. He definitely stole my heart.









I named him Gonzo, he loves FF too!


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

jennifer said:


> Those are pretty! I've never seen those before. Where did you buy them?


We are in New Hampshire. We got them from a small farm


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

kaufranc said:


> We got 1 as our Exotic chick from McMurray. I love him! He is so goofy and friendly. He definitely stole my heart.
> 
> I named him Gonzo, he loves FF too!











This is our faveralle rooster, sully. He is huge!


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## kaufranc (Oct 3, 2012)

Jay, we are from NH too! Where was the farm you got them from? Sully is very handsome! I hope Gonzo fills out like him!


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

kaufranc said:


> Jay, we are from NH too! Where was the farm you got them from? Sully is very handsome! I hope Gonzo fills out like him!


We got them in weare. I think they have a couple more. When we go him in may he had all of his tail feathers picked out. A lot have grown in but not all. In fact, all of the chickens we got had no tail feathers. We had to spray blukot on them to get them to stop. Everyone has filled in nicely. It seems once I started them on ff, they really showed improvement. I noticed ours were much fluffier than theirs. (We just went to get 6 more yesterday). It's really funny, when you pick them up they are very light. All feathers.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

jennifer said:


> Ya that's what I'm worried about. I had them free feeding before. Hmmmmmm. Bee help!


How many scoops did you feed when you were feeding dry feed? Feed the same...though you are actually feeding less feed because it is swollen with water, they are getting more nutrients. Should come out about the same number of scoops.

Then you watch your birds for general conditioning...are they looking like they are losing weight? If not, you're on the money. If they look like they are getting a little too heavy, run like they are lumbering back and forth on their legs like a group of thunder thighs..then you might want to cut back.

They are constantly wanting more because it's more flavorful than what they are used to getting and it's easier to eat, so it's more quickly consumed.

If you were just putting out a big feeder of continuous feed and filling it up every 2-3 days or so, then this is not a good gauge(the same number of scoops) and you will just have to watch for body conditioning. It's pretty easy to tell a skinny bird from a fat one..just try to keep them in the middle~no matter how much they clamor for more! 

With this feed it's very easy to overfeed and get some fat birds real quick...I'm constantly adjusting my feed amounts by half a scoop up or down, either way, according to their body conditioning.


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks again Bee for clearing up the 'how much fo I feed?' Question. I was giving free choice pellets but now am giving 4 cup sized scoops each afternoon. But they are also free ranging all day now so I feel pretty confident they won't starve. . Btw, my poop board thanks you too!!!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Never been thanked by a poop board before...first time for everything! LOL

Now...if we can just get you into deep litter you can retire the poop board and it may just send me flowers!


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

Funny, I bought mulch this past week instead of the PDZ because I was getting a few ants in the coop. Planned on switching it all out tomorrow...


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

Can you point me to a good thread on deep litter?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Here's a rather large one..

http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/70/deep-litter-method

And a smaller, less complete one here...

http://www.chickenforum.com/f16/deep-litter-5811/


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Here are my chickens eating it up!


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Too funny! I guess I filled the hanging feeder up every 2 days or so before. Shouldn't they get a lot if their food free ranging? I've started letting them out at 2 pm each day. I guess I will just watch and see. They love that FF. love is an understatement!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Mine eat foraged foods all day and only get two scoops of FF each evening..and that's for 13 birds, standard breed. They eat a bit of that and then go back out to forage until dark and then I think they eat any leftovers before they hit the grass in the morning, though there's usually not much left over...just a skim on the bottom of the feed trough. 

That much keeps them fat enough...sometimes they look too fat and then I cut back the scoop level a little. Primarily, their best nutrition comes from the forage and it saves me so much money!


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## piglett (Jun 21, 2012)

kaufranc said:


> Jay, we are from NH too! Where was the farm you got them from? Sully is very handsome! I hope Gonzo fills out like him!


how are those silkies doing at your place??


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## Regina L (Jul 6, 2013)

Day 5 

They seem to love it!
But they still have watery poops!


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## kaufranc (Oct 3, 2012)

Piglett, we had 2 pass away. Ivory first and then Rudy. They slowly lost use of their legs and passed. All were fine prior.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Chickens can have wetter stool in the heat of summer anyway due to the increased consumption of fluids...the more they drink, the more they pee. Now, add to that the increased fluid consumption of feed that has water in it, then you have even more peeing. It will all even out soon, especially if the mix is thicker and less soupy and then when the hotter part of summer starts to subside. 

I had a few messy butts there for a bit when it was really hot and soon as it got cooler temps, they cleared up. Happens every summer when it's hot, FF or no FF, if the temps get high.


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## Regina L (Jul 6, 2013)

Bee, my 6 (3 month old) chicken's welfare and happy lives are all thanks to your awesome posts!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Not to me!!! To you! You are the one who found a valuable resource or method and implemented it. You don't know how many folks will read something about fermented feed and pass it by as something they wouldn't ever do, make excuses for not wanting to do it, etc. They miss out when they take such a stance and, even worse, their birds miss out as well. 

YOU did this and you can claim it...and pass it along as something that was good that you found, so that others may benefit from it too.  That's all I do..find something good, pass it along. It just grows from there...


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

kaufranc said:


> Piglett, we had 2 pass away. Ivory first and then Rudy. They slowly lost use of their legs and passed. All were fine prior.


What happened to them?


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

My birds are let out in the morning and they are

Free to our fields but most of the time they wait in the barn until evening because its so HOT! 

It's even 100+ for the past three days!


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## jmc0319 (Sep 16, 2012)

amyhill said:


> Funny, I bought mulch this past week instead of the PDZ because I was getting a few ants in the coop. Planned on switching it all out tomorrow...


Amyhill - I use pine shavings in the coop and sprinkle the PDZ on top then turn it in when I add more. It works very well for me.


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

jmc0319 said:


> Amyhill - I use pine shavings in the coop and sprinkle the PDZ on top then turn it in when I add more. It works very well for me.


Thanks. I'll try it that way


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I tried a new theory today.. I fed the usual amount of FF. they ate it up in 25 min. I put a scoop of food in the dry feeder. They didn't eat really any of it. When I let them out i gave a bit of FF they ate and ran off to forage. I think they will eat the FF because they like it more. They arnt starving they just eat it because its yummy. I'm gonna feed less then before. It was way to much.


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## piglett (Jun 21, 2012)

kaufranc said:


> Piglett, we had 2 pass away. Ivory first and then Rudy. They slowly lost use of their legs and passed. All were fine prior.


so sorry to hear that. i wonder that happened
we hatched out about 200 chicks this year
we had a couple that the we found dead when we went to feed & water them all in the morning. but with that amount of birds there was bound to be a few that were not rite & expired. none here had that problem with their legs.
George is alive & well. he still take pride in his "work" 

i had 1 silkie hen turn into a chick abuser .....i solved her trouble 
i still have her sister who is my best hen
she will take in chicks anytime i wish, even if they are a week or 2 old 
could it be that the 2 of them got into something?
something that made them sick???
i sure wish i had the answer

piglett


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Just read a breakdown of someone's expenses and how much money they were saving on feed costs with the FF...it was enlightening!

http://naturalchickenkeeping.blogspot.com/2013/08/cost-savings-from-fermenting-feed-for.html


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

Bee said:


> Just read a breakdown of someone's expenses and how much money they were saving on feed costs with the FF...it was enlightening!
> 
> http://naturalchickenkeeping.blogspot.com/2013/08/cost-savings-from-fermenting-feed-for.html


Wow that is awesome!


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Oh good lord! After reading that and even having 15 chickens how could you not feed FF? Wow that's just amazing. Thanks Bee for turning a lot of folks on to this simple healthy and inexpensive way to nourish our flocks!


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Interesting... So who has added other kinds of feed to their FF besides pellets and scratch? And what did you add?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I've added various whole grains, garlic, grated ginger root.


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## drob12985 (Jul 6, 2013)

Bee said:


> Just read a breakdown of someone's expenses and how much money they were saving on feed costs with the FF...it was enlightening!
> 
> http://naturalchickenkeeping.blogspot.com/2013/08/cost-savings-from-fermenting-feed-for.html


That was a great read, thanks alot Bee. FF will definitely be good for the wallet!


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

jennifer said:


> Interesting... So who has added other kinds of feed to their FF besides pellets and scratch? And what did you add?


I use alfalfa pellets. We don't have a lot of grass here. So they forage mainly on sprigs and dead leaves, so I add some alfalfa to get some of those plant proteins.


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

I added whole oats, flaxseed, chops and lentils today. About 3 cups of this mix to about 12 cups pellets. They like it with the added ingredients even better.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

That's awesome!


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

jennifer said:


> I walked out with about 6 cups FF. they don't like it in the bowls or trough feeder.. On the ground.. Hope that's ok..... They love it! They eat for about 5 min and then find bugs come back and eat the rest. I discontinued the regular pellets and I will tell you what... No more stinky poo! No flies and happy flock. I'm seriously excited!!! I got my first maran egg today. Yellowest yolk I've ever seen. 3 weeks on FF and its turning out superb. Thanks BEE!!!!!!!!


I keep thinking of giving this a try, but a comment like your makes me rethink....I go for the orangest yolk I can get, wondering if others experience yellow yolks with FF, or is it still bases on free ranging. My Flock has been on a peanut based, non soy/nonGMO feed for a while now, and we are just switching over to one we like better (so much better that we have become a retailer of their feed) H and H, it is non soy/non-GMO feed that uses fish and animal protein, rather than peanut. I like the look of the old fashioned crumble, more whole grains are in it. Kinda wondering if FF only shows improvement with the more commercial pellets, or with all food in general. I too am in Texas, and wonder about the FF molding and such.. I will see what others say, and if no experience on here with the feed I use, may just switch one flock over and see what the diff is.


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

piglett said:


> Yes FF will work well with meat birds too.
> how many do you have at your place?
> 
> piglett


Great idea, I have 20 Cornish-x coming in next week, I may have to try on them, especially since they won't range!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

All foods in general are improved by the fermentation. I'm not sure about increasing the color of the yolks as that is generally dictated by what is being fed. If one feeds commercial grade formulated foods it's likely that the egg yolks will look like commercially grown eggs. 

It does increase the size of the yolks and there are pics posted on this thread to show the difference in size of yolk before and after starting FF.

FF works particularly well for meat birds and was my first experience with using FF. Saved me scads of money on feed, the birds were extremely healthy and mobile, did not have stinking, liquid stools and, consequently, did not have to rehydrate all the time due to loss of electrolytes out their rears. Zero mortality rate for health related,or unknown causes on, deaths. 

I have some short vids of their activity levels and free range capabilities if anyone would like to see them. 

I just did a poultry processing demonstration for a lady this summer who had free ranged her meaties and fed organic feeds that had been fermented. They were the largest chickens I've ever seen in my life, bar none. They were 13-15 lb live weight and healthy in all organs upon butchering. All lived to processing at 12 wks. 

Of course, those results were also achieved by restricting their feed to once or twice a day feedings only and restricted amounts, so no continuous feeding was done.


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

Jim said:


> I keep thinking of giving this a try, but a comment like your makes me rethink....I go for the orangest yolk I can get, wondering if others experience yellow yolks with FF, or is it still bases on free ranging. My Flock has been on a peanut based, non soy/nonGMO feed for a while now, and we are just switching over to one we like better (so much better that we have become a retailer of their feed) H and H, it is non soy/non-GMO feed that uses fish and animal protein, rather than peanut. I like the look of the old fashioned crumble, more whole grains are in it. Kinda wondering if FF only shows improvement with the more commercial pellets, or with all food in general. I too am in Texas, and wonder about the FF molding and such.. I will see what others say, and if no experience on here with the feed I use, may just switch one flock over and see what the diff is.


Oh Jim, somewhere in all of these posts about ff, some posted pictures of cracked eggs (in the same saucer) showing yolk colors from b4 and after, and the after ff eggs had much more color. I'm still using up my b4 eggs, so YMMV. I can't tell yet about how well my girls like the ff, because my fence neighbor has been putting windfall peaches through the fence into their pen, and who wouldn't prefer ripe peaches...


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

I'm feeding FF in Texas. Been a week now, and haven't had an issue with mold. I keep my bucket in my barn, so in the shade, but still 90-95 degrees. My girls absolutely love it. I haven't really noticed yolk color mainly because I haven't looked.


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

I haven't had trouble with mold either. Maybe as long as its bubbling, it won't mold. I'm no scientist though....


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

Bacteria and fungi in a culture tend to produce substances that inhibit the growth of competing bacteria/fungi. Which is why a healthy FF will not be quick to mold. In the case of the MACV, one of the substances is acetic acid, but I'm sure there are others, which may be why the chickens get so healthy.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

I have my batch in a blue bucket cover just enough but let air in too. It on my back porch though with highs of 100 most days.. Is that okay?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

It will just "cook" faster...metabolism will speed up as the mix is warmer and so they can run out of fresh feed faster, so if you can't use it up~and add fresh feed~ within a week, I'd mix smaller batches. The smell will be stronger as well, but this doesn't mean it's going bad..just very highly fermented. 

I always keep my FF in the coop, even in temps at almost 100 and never have any problem with just feeding it quicker, replenishing it more often and such.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Thanks bee!


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

Bee said:


> All foods in general are improved by the fermentation. I'm not sure about increasing the color of the yolks as that is generally dictated by what is being fed. If one feeds commercial grade formulated foods it's likely that the egg yolks will look like commercially grown eggs.
> 
> It does increase the size of the yolks and there are pics posted on this thread to show the difference in size of yolk before and after starting FF.
> 
> ...


Thanks, as I thought. I v
Currently pay $32 for a 50 lb bag of feed. If I can stretch it more, sounds good to me!


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Hey! I should have said most orange yolk! Not yellow.. I have seen my hens turn into amazing birds in a month. I have 12 hens and I am getting at least 10 eggs a day and they are just starting to lay.. All but 3 are 6 months old. The yolks are a deep orange. Very rich and the birds are very vibrant. I will swear by the FF. never going back.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I have also started free ranging more often. About 8 hours a day instead if 4, not sure if the yolk color was the FF or the extra foraging.


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

It's been 3 and 1/2 weeks since starting FF for us and I can say we have not ad any brittle eggs or thin jelled egg in over 2 weeks. The after FF yolks seem to be 'thicker'. I don't know if that made sense. It was rounded instead of flat when you crack it onto a skillet.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I agree. The yolks are held together more. Like a thicker substance. Nobody gets more agitated then when you are frying eggs and they break! Baha.


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

jennifer said:


> I agree. The yolks are held together more. Like a thicker substance. Nobody gets more agitated then when you are frying eggs and they break! Baha.


There you go! You knew what I meant! Lol!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Yes, those yolks are definitely taller and wider for me. If you look at those pics of yolks on this thread you can see just how tall and rounded they are. I've yet to hatch chicks out on FF eggs, but I'm thinking they would have a superior nutrition from that type of yolk, wouldn't you? 

Some folks were worried that the thicker shells would prevent chicks from hatching but I've had no ill reports of this yet this year on the BYC FF threads.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Planning to hatch chicks this spring if my broody will do it.. Guess we will see then. I have no doubts!


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

I've got a broody on FF eggs. Not sure of fertility, because of the heat, but I will let you know what I find out.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Can't wait! How long was she on FF before sitting the eggs? What breed is she? You'll have to do a count down and a pictorial of it for us!


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Bee said:


> Can't wait! How long was she on FF before sitting the eggs? What breed is she? You'll have to do a count down and a pictorial of it for us!


About a week before. So not sure how much difference there will be. She's a big ol mutt. Bantam sized. Very fruit loopy.


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## piglett (Jun 21, 2012)

Bee said:


> Can't wait! How long was she on FF before sitting the eggs? What breed is she? You'll have to do a count down and a pictorial of it for us!


i have been feeding FF for a few days now
looks like one of my buffs is broody

piglett


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Now we'll get to see how purely FF nourished chicks do....so exciting!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

As promised, I made some short, albeit very amateur and shaky~I'm none too familiar with modern media, vids with the use of my camera to show the process of replenishing a FF bucket with fresh feed and also the consistency of the feed when it is done absorbing and fermenting over night and ready to be fed.

I utilized the Ol' Bat to help me in the first video and so announcing her film debut!


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

Bee said:


> As promised, I made some short, albeit very amateur and shaky~I'm none too familiar with modern media, vids with the use of my camera to show the process of replenishing a FF bucket with fresh feed and also the consistency of the feed when it is done absorbing and fermenting over night and ready to be fed.
> 
> I utilized the Ol' Bat to help me in the first video and so announcing her film debut!
> 
> ...


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

jennifer said:


> Hey! I should have said most orange yolk! Not yellow.. I have seen my hens turn into amazing birds in a month. I have 12 hens and I am getting at least 10 eggs a day and they are just starting to lay.. All but 3 are 6 months old. The yolks are a deep orange. Very rich and the birds are very vibrant. I will swear by the FF. never going back.


Ok, that sounds better. . Thanks.


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

I'm pretty sure this question has been answered before, but I'm just double checking. My ff bucket gets some white mold on the sides with the stuff that doesn't get scraped down. I've been scraping it, and mixing it in again. That's ok right?


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

Full blown mold is bad. If its the mother, which looks like a film of yogurt almost, that's good. 
At least that's how I see it. Mine smells like yogurt mixed with sour dough.


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## Clearcut23 (Apr 25, 2013)

I've been doing FF for over a month now. Whatever mold I've seen in the bucket I've just mixed back into the feed and haven't had any problems yet. Yesterday I saw one of my hens eating the mold off the top of the food. So far so good


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

jaystyles75 said:


> I'm pretty sure this question has been answered before, but I'm just double checking. My ff bucket gets some white mold on the sides with the stuff that doesn't get scraped down. I've been scraping it, and mixing it in again. That's ok right?


Yep...just mix it in with the FF and it will be fine. I've been doing it for 2 years now with good results only.


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

Thanks again Bee!! Much appreciated


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

I am in southern nh, and looking to find a local place that I can get fresh ground feed. I've been getting food at agway, but really would like to find some freshly ground food to see if it makes a difference


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

You might ask at your local extension agent's office...they may have a list of feed co-ops in your area.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Bee, my FF is starting to smell sweet but almost like a hairspray smell. What is this? I accidentally left the lid closed so... Is this bad?


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## Blessings4Mommy (Aug 2, 2013)

Bee, or anyone else who knows. I'm very new at this. In fact, we haven't gotten our baby chicks yet. Should be here in a week or so. Very interested in doing fermented feeds. What is UP/ACV? I know ACV is Apple Cider Vinegar what is the rest? Thanks.


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

The sweet smell is the fermentation happening, mine smells much like yogurt. 
Unsure what UP would be. I used the feed, a bit of scratch and water. I only needed the ACV once when I first got it going, and truly it was not needed, it simply helped.


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## Blessings4Mommy (Aug 2, 2013)

Can you ferment medicated chick starter?


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

Why use medicated feed when the fermentation of te feed increases the good bacteria. 
Basically the fermented feed is going to do so much good for your birds the medicated feed is simply not needed. 
Page 2 or 3 or the thread has something in regards to that. If you already have the feed, as I see it, it would not hurt anything. Possible the medication will kill out the beneficial bacterium your trying to get into your birds.?


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Blessings4Mommy said:


> Can you ferment medicated chick starter?


Anything can be fermented. Use what you've got.


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## Blessings4Mommy (Aug 2, 2013)

Feed question. Are there any brands that are better than others or are all about the same. Thanks.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I have started to just get the co-op brand pellets. I'm assuming most of the nutrition is coming from the fermentation and its about 5 dollars cheaper than the Tsc - purina brands.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

But I really don't know the answer. That's just what I am doing.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Same here...my feed doesn't have a brand. It's just fresh milled right there on the sight and bagged up into white bags. Smells like breakfast when ya open it up and has a fresh and good color! Costs about $15 for 50#


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## Chippets (Jun 8, 2013)

Blessings4Mommy said:


> Bee, or anyone else who knows. I'm very new at this. In fact, we haven't gotten our baby chicks yet. Should be here in a week or so. Very interested in doing fermented feeds. What is UP/ACV? I know ACV is Apple Cider Vinegar what is the rest? Thanks.


UP is unpasteurized ACV - the one with "the mother" in it. I just started my first batch of FF yesterday, and used the ACV to start it off. When I checked this morning I could tell I hadn't used quite enough water so I added more water and left it again. Tonight I opened the bucket and it had the smell and layer of grayish just like Bee said it would! I mixed it up more andI scooped some out into a pan for the girls (and Roo) and hubby and I stood back to watch:









Talk about a hit!! They loved it!! Took pictures of them yesterday too so I have something to compare with later. Thanks, Bee!!

I find it odd that the 4H people around here have never heard of FF. Why do you suppose that is?!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

It's a relatively new, but old, concept in poultry feeding. For many a long year the agricultural community has let the government (USDuhA)  tell them the best way to raise livestock and you can see how that has turned out.

The FFA and 4H programs are pretty heavy in USDA type propaganda, so I'm thinking it's not something they would be familiar with at all unless they had an unconventional 4H leader. With the 4H groups operating out of the county extension offices, I can't see it happening until the commercial ag producers in this country start jumping on the bandwagon of natural probiotics, as the producers in other countries are doing.


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## Blessings4Mommy (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks Chippets. I couldn't find the answer on the Internet.


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## jmc0319 (Sep 16, 2012)

Chippets said:


> UP is unpasteurized ACV - the one with "the mother" in it. I just started my first batch of FF yesterday, and used the ACV to start it off. When I checked this morning I could tell I hadn't used quite enough water so I added more water and left it again. Tonight I opened the bucket and it had the smell and layer of grayish just like Bee said it would! I mixed it up more andI scooped some out into a pan for the girls (and Roo) and hubby and I stood back to watch:
> 
> Talk about a hit!! They loved it!! Took pictures of them yesterday too so I have something to compare with later. Thanks, Bee!!
> 
> I find it odd that the 4H people around here have never heard of FF. Why do you suppose that is?!


I have two questions. What is "the mother" ? Will the ACV without the mother hurt them?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

jmc0319 said:


> I have two questions. What is "the mother" ? Will the ACV without the mother hurt them?


The mother refers to the collection of acetobacter bacilli that converts the sugars in apple juice into a fermentation that is then heated to kill these bacteria/molds and filtered, then diluted to make food grade vinegar.

When they do not filter nor heat the vinegar, these beneficial prebiotics are preserved and can be used to culture beneficial bacteria in the small intestines of an animal...or to inoculate a batch of wet feed grains.

The regular vinegar is beneficial for the vitamins and minerals as well as for the acetic acid content, so it's good for giving the birds too...but it won't inoculate a batch of fermented feed with acetobacter bacilli. Most FF will pull these wild yeasts from the air anyway and they will colonize the feed mixture, feeding off the alcohol sugar that is a by product of lactobacilli metabolism~but it takes a little longer to colonize when pulled from the air.


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## Regina L (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm new to all this FF, and I have started about 2-3 weeks ago. 
I only used what I had.. Medicated chick feed and some scratch and irrigation water. 
As we are in the middle of summer (northern Utah), my FF started to ferment within a few days!
Never needed vinegar or any other mothers, speeders, etc...
I was super excited to go through each stage of the fermentation as being taught in this Forum!
(Never thought I'd be excited about fermenting anything! LOL)
The pullets loved it, and as testified by all others here, the poops didn't smell as bad, flies moving out, pullets growing like weeds, looking more vigorous and energetic than me, dogs going crazy about the FF and all is great!
At first I was a little worried about "maintaining" the feed, but I confess that lately I haven't been as scared as I was 10 days ago, and I just keep adding water and feed to the two concoction containers (now I feel like I'm an old witch making potions! Lol)
One container is an old Tupperware gallon pitcher and the other is a huge big stainless steel cooking pot with a sort of a colander inside!
I am so grateful for all I've been learning from all you folks here!
Regina


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

Rlabrum said:


> I'm new to all this FF, and I have started about 2-3 weeks ago.
> I only used what I had.. Medicated chick feed and some scratch and irrigation water.
> As we are in the middle of summer (northern Utah), my FF started to ferment within a few days!
> Regina


I grew up in the Heber valley. I miss Utah, it's mountains, scenery, people, and mostly it's snow. Nothing beats face deep in Utah powder.


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## Regina L (Jul 6, 2013)

Well, I moved to Utah recently from Montana!

The only reasons I left my Montana were 4 adorable grandchildren! 
I miss Montana with every fiber of my being! But these grand babies won my heart!
In fact I just got this chicken coop and chicks for the kids to enjoy!
Heber is where it has lots of Swiss people, right?
I think I've been there and it was was beautiful


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## jmc0319 (Sep 16, 2012)

Bee said:


> The mother refers to the collection of acetobacter bacilli that converts the sugars in apple juice into a fermentation that is then heated to kill these bacteria/molds and filtered, then diluted to make food grade vinegar.
> 
> When they do not filter nor heat the vinegar, these beneficial prebiotics are preserved and can be used to culture beneficial bacteria in the small intestines of an animal...or to inoculate a batch of wet feed grains.
> 
> The regular vinegar is beneficial for the vitamins and minerals as well as for the acetic acid content, so it's good for giving the birds too...but it won't inoculate a batch of fermented feed with acetobacter bacilli. Most FF will pull these wild yeasts from the air anyway and they will colonize the feed mixture, feeding off the alcohol sugar that is a by product of lactobacilli metabolism~but it takes a little longer to colonize when pulled from the air.


Thanks Bee. One more question coming from a real rookie. Is it my imagination or is it possible just the ACV makes the coop smell less?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

jmc0319 said:


> Thanks Bee. One more question coming from a real rookie. Is it my imagination or is it possible just the ACV makes the coop smell less?


It's not your imagination. Across the board, everyone who has turned exclusively to feeding FF are reporting better smelling feces and no flies. The proteins and sugars that would ordinarily not be digested by the chicken and comes out to lie on the coop floor have a rotten smell because that's what they are doing...rotting.

The FF converts those proteins and sugars into a form that the chickens can utilize and absorb, so it's not being wasted in the feces..and it's not rotting there either. The flies seem to know they will not glean any good nutrition from the FF feces as they are just not working the manure at all. Even my dog will no longer eat it, so I guess it doesn't taste good to _anyone_ anymore.... 

My coop doesn't smell like chickens..not even on the hottest, most humid day...and the amazing thing is I had the same thing going on when I had the same coop full of 54 CX chickens, who all poop like salad shooters 24/7...they had normal, formed stools that had no odor. It was like a miracle!


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## jmc0319 (Sep 16, 2012)

Bee said:


> It's not your imagination. Across the board, everyone who has turned exclusively to feeding FF are reporting better smelling feces and no flies. The proteins and sugars that would ordinarily not be digested by the chicken and comes out to lie on the coop floor have a rotten smell because that's what they are doing...rotting.
> 
> The FF converts those proteins and sugars into a form that the chickens can utilize and absorb, so it's not being wasted in the feces..and it's not rotting there either. The flies seem to know they will not glean any good nutrition from the FF feces as they are just not working the manure at all. Even my dog will no longer eat it, so I guess it doesn't taste good to anyone anymore....
> 
> My coop doesn't smell like chickens..not even on the hottest, most humid day...and the amazing thing is I had the same thing going on when I had the same coop full of 54 CX chickens, who all poop like salad shooters 24/7...they had normal, formed stools that had no odor. It was like a miracle!


I am not on FF yet but just ACV. Is it possible just the ACV works that way too.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

jmc0319 said:


> I am not on FF yet but just ACV. Is it possible just the ACV works that way too.


It didn't for me...I'd been giving it for years before trying the FF and never noticed less smell in the coop. But then, maybe my coops had less smell than other folks' coops all that time and I didn't have a comparison? I haven't been inside another person's coop for a good long while.

My coop never did smell very bad until I had a batch of meaties one spring...they sure did do a number on the coops smell!  I just attributed the lack of harsh smells to the amount of ventilation I had in my coops but never really thought about the ACV having anything to do with it. Doing deep litter really helped also, so I'm not sure what method helped the most...but I did notice that the FF produced a coop with virtually NO smell whatsoever and that was a first for me.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Agreed! Well said again Bee! My coop is smelling like anywhere else on my land. Fresh. My Hens range further, to the lake and the pond. This is the best thing I have done along with the deep litter. Everybody give a hands up for Bee! After all us chicken farmers have learned more than we can be most grateful for. Life long lessons have been said 
here by a good lady who does this from the heart. Thankyou Bee!!!!!!
Jennifer Andrews


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## GratefulGirl (Sep 10, 2012)

My girls have been on FF almost 2 weeks. I am noticing more energy shiny feathers on their heads very soft feathers & less smell although there is still some. They love it but seem hungry all the time lol. No going back to dry feed. Thanks so much Bee for introducing this to us on this forum!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Y'all makin' me blush! It ain't no thang...you would have found out about it sooner or later as this FF thing has spread like wildfire in the past two years!

Two years ago was when I did my first search on it and could find absolutely nothing online about it except for some studies done in distant lands by commercial ag growers. Couldn't find any books on it, no blogs, no nothing....so I _started_ something about it on BYC. Never in a million years did I dream it would take off like it did over there and now you can find so many sites about FF...it's a funny thing.


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

Still have not started yet, life is busy,as is for most. Full time job, business on the side and so on. Wondering from those newer to FF, I am used to feeding being a weekly chore, treats is daily, bit wondering, do you find using the FF is adding much more time to daily chores, or, once started, does feeding the flocks only add an extra few minutes? We have 6 flocks, plus usually a hundred or more baby chicks at a time. I like all the positive reports and since mine have very little smell, loosing that would be great, especially with the 25 meeties I should have tomorrow!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Since I've been using a trough style feeder and feeding once a day for many years, it didn't change much in my routine. I think, at first, those who used continuous feeders were having an adjustment time and they also had trouble with knowing how much to put out each meal. 

I think that is another benefit to feeding FF daily...one gets to know their chicken's eating habits a little better and how much they can live on as opposed to just filling a big feeder and keeping it filled up. 

Couple that with the fact that one also loses less feed when feeding wet feeds...no scratching and flicking the feeds out of the feeder. I used to keep a piece of fencing over my trough when I fed dry so that they wouldn't get in it and scratch and also flick it out when they search for the favorite grains. 

For me it didn't really add minutes as much as it did maybe seconds or a single minute to the routine.


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## kaufranc (Oct 3, 2012)

Jim, we are still getting adjusted to the amount of feed to feed! We have 5 different coops to feed. 4 of them have a few chickens in them and we have figured out how much to feed. The 5th coop has about 50 chickens of assorted ages and breeds and that is our hardest to adjust our feed amount. They always seem starving! We give them a treat in the morning of cracked corn and they free range all day. Any left overs we give them too. Our guinea hens don't like the FF!


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

My day to day routine really hasn't changed. I turned my flock loose, open up the small coop run, then come inside to get up the kiddo and eat breakfast. Then I go outside to feed the various mouths I have. I've always given something to the chickens at this time. Scratch, left overs, etc. Now I just give them their FF.


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

Thanks for that y'all. With my Cornish x comin in tomorrow, it will be my first time not using medicated feed. I usually go

I've probiotic in water, and yogurt when hey are old enough. I especially like the probiotic benefit the FF is reported to add, plus, I can control more how much those eaters consume if using FF. and with all the waste chicks do, hmmmm. Those are very good points. My older chicks don't waste feed anymore with this new feed. They eat any that gets flicked out, but the babies! When I clean brooder boxes, always soooooo much food. Ok, I am off Friday, I just gotta read back, and get me a FF setup for the babies if nothing else.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Was reading on the BYC FF thread this evening and one lady was reporting that her hatch rate on the FF was good and she had a high percentage of pullets born. Wanted to know if it could be the FF...and it can.

ACV has been used for many years on livestock to insure more females are born, from race horses to sheep to rabbits. I've used it on rabbits, sheep and chickens and can attest that I've had more females each time I've had births of livestock that are on ACV in their water.

The FF is much like the ACV because it produces acetic acid also from the yeast spores pulled from the air,hence the vinegary smell of the FF even for those who do not use mother ACV to jumpstart their mix...it is ever present alongside the LABs. 

She also reported no deformities in the chicks, whereas previously she had been having some in the particular breed she was hatching.


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## kaufranc (Oct 3, 2012)

Very interesting Bee.


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Hey y'all! I was gone for 6 days... Fed the pellets I stead of FF. easier on the pet sitter.. Now getting 5 eggs instead of 11! Huge difference.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

So I guess I've made to big of a batch it's smelling alcoholic. So ill start over with less.


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

If it's smelling alcoholic, just add a little splash more MACV, it will eat the alcohol...how do you think wine vinegar and apple cider vinegar get made???? Today on one of my jaunts out to the pen, I saw that my neighbor had passed another windfall peach into the pen, it looked ripe enough to have started fermenting, and I swear one of the amber-white girls was walking around like a stumbling drunk. She is fine now though. That was splash. (all that was left was the fuzzy skin)


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

leviparker said:


> So I guess I've made to big of a batch it's smelling alcoholic. So ill start over with less.


You really don't have to worry about it..honestly. If you've left it open and air can be drawn in, it has already established enough acetobacter bacilli to consume any alcohol sugars produced, so you don't have to add more ACV or worry that your chickens are going to get drunk.

That's just what advanced fermentation smells like. Mine smells like that all the time because I use the same strong scoby over and over...I've used the same scoby since last fall.


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## Chippets (Jun 8, 2013)

I think I made too much for my six also. I stir this batch every morning and every night, but how long will it last? Should I dump out the old after a week and start a new batch?

My husband insists they are hungry because every time he goes out back they run toward the coop and their empty dish, lol! I've had to convince him to not give in to their chicken lies! . Tonight we had a late dinner so by the time we were done it was 7:30 - the chickens put themselves to bed by then, so I went out and started mixing the FF to out some in the coop for morning, and they all heard me and came flying out of their nesting area, cooing at me with their sweet talk to get some FF! Cracks me up!!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Fermented feed doesn't "get old" so you don't have to worry about tossing it and starting a new batch. Just feed it until it's almost gone and use the already well fermented batch to inoculate the fresh feed and water. 

It's all good! No worries. 

It's so funny but folks always report that their chickens seem hungrier on the FF, but most have been feeding in large feeders that feed continuously, so they never really got to see their chickens "get hungry".


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## Blessings4Mommy (Aug 2, 2013)

Question: If you use FF/ACV in the waterer do you still need to deworm twice a year? Thanks.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Well it's not working well. I've been feeding it for a week or more and the poops don't look good and fly and ants are coming to it


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Blessings4Mommy said:


> Question: If you use FF/ACV in the waterer do you still need to deworm twice a year? Thanks.


They say the acidic environment of the bowels discourages the growth of parasites but I've not seen any studies on that. I don't deworm chickens with any sort of chemical dewormer, so I don't know much about that issue.

I'm thinking ACV and FF is not a cure all and if your flock is prone to parasite infestation, these two things are most likely not the solution, though they can help.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

leviparker said:


> Well it's not working well. I've been feeding it for a week or more and the poops don't look good and fly and ants are coming to it


Not sure what to say other than your results aren't typical. Are you sure it's fermented and not just wet feeds?


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Bee said:


> Not sure what to say other than your results aren't typical. Are you sure it's fermented and not just wet feeds?


Well pretty sure. it's not very wet. It's kinda pasty,not a liquid.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Does it smell sort of pickly? Sour? Do you see bubbles in the liquid when you stir it or see holes in the top of the feed when you first open it up where bubbles have escaped out the top? Is there a light film of white or whitish grey on the top of the fluid or feed before you stir it up each day?


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Bee said:


> Does it smell sort of pickly? Sour? Do you see bubbles in the liquid when you stir it or see holes in the top of the feed when you first open it up where bubbles have escaped out the top? Is there a light film of white or whitish grey on the top of the fluid or feed before you stir it up each day?


There is no liquid. It does have some grey on it.
It smells rotten


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

Add more water.. And more time. I did not start to notice the benefits until I slowed down and let my patience take over.
My feed is a peanut butter consistency why I feed, and I add fresh nonchlorinated water every day. 
Keep at it and the benefits will slowly show through. The feathering on my birds was the first thing I noticed. Then the poops and the smell. Love what it has done with the place and would never go back.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

So I shouldn't start over? Just ad some MACV ANd water. But add water everyday?


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

I added water and MACV


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

As bee suggested earlier in the discussion.. Once the culture is started and really going you no longer need to ad the MACV. It simply helps to speed up that process. 
I add feed and water everyday AFTER I scoop out the days ration. It keeps my levels the same, and I know that I won't have to wait for fermentation again. 
Good luck! The chore of FF pays itself off, and it's really no more work then before.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

You shouldn't really need to add more ACV past the very first time but it can't hurt. The "rotten" smell is subjective..some people think that fermented foods smell rotten, some don't mind that sour mash liquor smell. 

I don't add water every day and it's not necessary but if you find your mix too dry for your liking, it's okay as well. Just remember, the more soupy the mix, the more liquids the birds have to consume to get the feed...and the more liquid their stool will be due to the increased liquid intake.


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## Blessings4Mommy (Aug 2, 2013)

Bee said:


> They say the acidic environment of the bowels discourages the growth of parasites but I've not seen any studies on that. I don't deworm chickens with any sort of chemical dewormer, so I don't know much about that issue.
> 
> I'm thinking ACV and FF is not a cure all and if your flock is prone to parasite infestation, these two things are most likely not the solution, though they can help.


Don't have a flock yet, still awaiting arrival of baby chicks. Just trying to be proactive and see what steps I could take to prevent any worm issues. Would prefer to not use any chemicals myself. Thanks for all the wonderful advice and what a blessing you are to everyone here on this forum.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

You are so kind!!! Thank you! If you are more into preventative approach than a curative, there are a lot of things I do to insure the flock is not prone to an overgrowth of internal parasites.

I free range so that they have fresh soils under their feet all day and aren't living on and eating the soils of runs that are contaminated with high loads of feces. If you cannot free range, paddocks that are movable are an option. If those are not an option, doing deep litter in the run and using it for composting the feces and improving the soils can help.

I usually don't feed on the ground...no need to put their food where they poop, so all feed is dispensed in a feeder except for the occasional food scraps or training grains.

I cull each year in March for those who are not laying every day or every other day. This seems to, by sheer probability, eliminate also the birds prone to parasites, illness or laying issues as I never have any issues with these problems. 

I let the birds forage most of their dietary needs and only supplement a little in the evenings and then feed regular rations in the winter. 

I add things to their diet~ on occasion~ that are known antihelmintics such as pumpkin seeds, garlic, ginger root, etc. just to see if anything comes out...never have seen a worm in the stool, so I'm thinking we are good.

I feed the FF so that their bowels are healthier and less prone to harbor heavy parasite loads. Before the FF I always kept mother vinegar in their water for the same reasons. 

Mostly I just watch for general health, appearances and production levels and if these all are optimal, then I know the parasite load they are carrying is an acceptable load and so I don't worry about it. 

They say that 90% of a flock or herd's parasite load is carried by 5% of the group, so I'm thinking I am probably eliminating that 5% by doing yearly culls of non-thrifty animals, those not laying, etc. By eliminating these animals that are more susceptible, I also eliminate those that are shedding oocysts into the soils so that the other birds may consume the insects and worms that have feasted upon them.

A few all natural antihelmintics are the pumpkin seeds, garlic, castor oil, ginger beer or ginger root, black walnut hulls, soap of any kind but they sell a concentrated soap called Basic H that is all natural (Joel Salatin uses it on his livestock). 

My granny always fed her chickens and pigs her soapy dishwater~she used lye soap~because she said it was good for their health..and she was right, it acted as a dewormer of sorts. 

Another preventative measure is to buy stock that is known for natural hardiness...starting out right can make all the difference in the world. I choose breeds based on that and I cull for that in my flocks, so I seem to get unnatural long laying life from the breeds I have. 

I think a combination of these methods yields the healthiest flock one could ever have...I've never had illness in my flocks and that has to mean something other than sheer luck.


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## Blessings4Mommy (Aug 2, 2013)

Bee said:


> You are so kind!!! Thank you! If you are more into preventative approach than a curative, there are a lot of things I do to insure the flock is not prone to an overgrowth of internal parasites.
> 
> I free range so that they have fresh soils under their feet all day and aren't living on and eating the soils of runs that are contaminated with high loads of feces. If you cannot free range, paddocks that are movable are an option. If those are not an option, doing deep litter in the run and using it for composting the feces and improving the soils can help.
> 
> ...


Bee, thanks for all the info. that was awesome. We have about 1/2 of an acre (wish we had more and plan to free range them. Also our coop has an open bottom so we can move it around but, plan for them to only be in it at night time or when someone is not home. With 6 of us in the family and since we homeschool 
that should be infrequent. Thanks for all the suggestions. I will keep all of them in mind.


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Started 4 Maran chicks (3 days old) on FF yesterday. Feeding the same mixture as I do to my adults. Layer pellets, alfalfa, and oats. Should I add/change anything to insure good health for these chicks? First time with chicks on FF.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Should be just fine!


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Thanks. I assumed it would, but doesn't hurt to ask.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

ShowBarnMom said:


> Thanks. I assumed it would, but doesn't hurt to ask.


Gotta ask...how's the sneezing at your place?


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## GratefulGirl (Sep 10, 2012)

It has been 2 weeks since I started my 12 week olds on FF. I noticed today they are looking umm sorta slimmer? I am concerned a little bit because they always seem hungry BUT they are also more active. Anyone else experience this? I am feeding twice a day & I know it's enough because they eat awhile then come back throughout the morning & finish it off.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Haven't had anybody report slimmer birds unless it would be from the increased activity levels creating a more trim bird? Trim is good, skinny not so good. A trim bird is a better layer than a fat bird, if it's any consolation. 

Play with your feed amounts given and see what transpires...let us know the results?


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

I got 10 eggs out of 10 hens!


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Bee said:


> Gotta ask...how's the sneezing at your place?


Honestly I haven't heard a ton in the last 24 hrs. But heard a little this morning.


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## Chippets (Jun 8, 2013)

Ok so it seems to me that my backyard flock is looking a little chunky ... Been on FF for 6 days and I'm wondering if I'm feeding waaaay too much?

Last week;

























Today:

























Or maybe they are becoming the shape and size they are supposed to be? They are three months now.


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## Chippets (Jun 8, 2013)

Also, SubaRoo's comb and wattles have grown and become redder!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Could be they are just getting more mature in their body development? They don't look too fat to me...how are they running? If they are lumbering a bit, rocking from side to side when they run, they are too chunky. If they are running normally and are still zippy quick, they should be doing fine.


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## Chippets (Jun 8, 2013)

Bee said:


> Could be they are just getting more mature in their body development? They don't look too fat to me...how are they running? If they are lumbering a bit, rocking from side to side when they run, they are too chunky. If they are running normally and are still zippy quick, they should be doing fine.


I don't think they are lumbering - at least not like those CX we had, lol! They seem to be quick so I'm going to continue and watch to make sure I don't end up with chicken chunks!


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Day 2 on FF.. my boxer dog thought it was HIS food.. needless to say he ate 1/2 the bucket and I was cleaning up after him all day! On a good note.. chickens all love it!  I wish I would have weighed the two we rescued before I started! Can not wait to see them gain weight!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

I think I just maid to much at once. Meaning a lot

More than I'd use in a week. But they love it!


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

I thought all was going good with the ff. but after me hens laying in the nest box daily for a month and a half all of a sudden after starting the ff my egg production dropped in half!!!! Today, while moving in coop number two due to chicken math, my dh found a little nest FULL of eggs behind a few boards by the shed!!!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

So the FF made them want to hide their eggs?  Maybe because they taste so good now that you are feeding the FF that they want to keep them for themselves...


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

LOL!!!!......


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Here are my youngest four, enjoying their FF. all of my chickens keep a close eye on me and follow me when they see me with it.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

Well I have fought it for a while but I just can't ignore the benefits. I am on day 3 of FF and all is well. I don't really notice a difference yet. Looking forward to some positive changes.

Thanks Bee! I wouldn't have started if I hadn't read your very informative post, here and on BYC.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Three days is a little early to notice changes....  Though I noticed immediate change from the norm on meat chicks, because I know their normal stool appearances...and within a day of their arrival I was seeing dryer, formed, dark stool as opposed to more liquid,pale stools one normally sees with meat birds.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

OK, I take back the no change. I do see a change in their stool. It's harder and darker. My grandkids follow me into the coop barefooted all the time so that is a plus already.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Pretty soon you can put your nose right down close to one of those droppings and not smell much at all...which is a BIG change from poop on regular dry feeding.


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## Chippets (Jun 8, 2013)

You know, my birds nearly knock me down to get this stuff, lol. This morning when I went to feed them they surrounded me and the bucket, as usual. The lid couldn't quite close because the scoop was sticking up just a bit and little gnat flies had gotten in. So, when I opened the bucket we all got swarmed by these little flies - and things got crazier with chickens diving and leaping for the flies! Once the swarm had dispersed, there were still some little flies stuck in the FF and I just mixed them in - extra protein! Then I wondered though, could they have laid eggs or anything bad in there that the fermentation wouldn't take care of?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Nah...just fruit flys/gnats and they don't carry any disease that I know of. If they laid eggs, it's more protein. Just think other folks are trying to grow maggots to feed their chickens and you have that covered!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Bee said:


> Nah...just fruit flys/gnats and they don't carry any disease that I know of. If they laid eggs, it's more protein. Just think other folks are trying to grow maggots to feed their chickens and you have that covered!


Heck we say that if a fly is on our food LOL


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## NCChickenChick (Jul 2, 2013)

Starting to feed my 4 girls some FF as soon as I can get it going again. Just 4 in a backyard flock. They are new to me, only had them a little over a week. A Polish, Australorp, mix of something and a silky. The Silky is the only reliable layer. How long til they settle in and lay reliably? They all were laying when they came but Stopped-probably from the stress of the move. They are Finally settling in here and acting like they may not fly away. (I kept them penned for almost a week). They range in a penned area about 20x30 with dust and worms and bushes and scratch and me sitting there and visiting with them after work. I know this probably belongs on another post. But this one looks active. Any advice?


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## amyhill (Feb 12, 2013)

Can someone please post a pic of the top of their ff before it is stirred. Mine is turning solid grey. More moldy looking than motherly


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

When mine is really cooking good, it is pretty grey too...no worries. If you leave it out in the trough for a bit and they don't clean it all up, you'll see that same grey color on the feed. It's not the bad mold, it is still mother..just a very good growth of it!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

I was filling up the trough for my 8 weekers and one of them jump into my hand for it lol!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I've been really schooling my young flock for this jumping up to the bucket or into the trough lately...there is no need for that. It only took a couple of corrections to get them to act like they have a set of manners at feeding time. 

I'd suggest you nip that in the bud because it's real cute when they are little...and not so much when they are an 8 lb hen.


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## Chippets (Jun 8, 2013)

I had one SLW whose beak was starting to cross. Just a bit, at the point the top and bottom were off by about a beak's width. I can't tell which bird it was now! Can the FF be the reason? They were hanging out at the picnic table so I took pictures of them all - and I want to ask will they ever not look like vultures? I mean, they are downright UGLY! Will they grow out of it? They are three months now.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

ok ya'll.. a lil help here, pretty please!.. I bought a new (adult) flock of 9 hens and 1 young roo. My babies (11 weeks yesterday) have been FFing about 10 days now and I have their amounts down.. I am feeding them twice a day. They finish it but don't leave hungry. However, the adults I just can't seem to get the correct amounts down! Should I be feeding them once or twice a day? I def don't want to over (or under) feed them! When I started the babies, I just feed them the normal amount I would dry and then cut back until they ate it all within 20-30 mins. (time it takes to do the rest of the chorse) but.. these adults I started right in with FF their first feeding here, so I have no idea what they "normally" ate. Can someone who has about the same flock size (10 adult LF) give me an idea of how often and how much they are feeding? (I know it may differ a lil but at least that gives me a start) I currently do not have any dry out for them and although they do free range a couple hours of the day.. they had never free ranged before and let's just say they aren't very good at it and usually spend all their time dust bathing.. lol Thanks so much for any advice you can give!


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

Starting to mix some FF with the H and H pellets I have, my flock loves the old fashioned crumble, but not so much on the pellets, needless to say, I will not carry pellets any more unless special order, or, if turning it to FF works out well. And, it may be a way to use up the last of the Texas Natural that they now won't touch. So, I have it in a bucket, lightly covered. I added water, stirred a little, and added a glug of the ACV with mother . Fingers crossed! I plan to try it on one flock, and see how it goes. I will update in a few days to a week.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Chippets said:


> I had one SLW whose beak was starting to cross. Just a bit, at the point the top and bottom were off by about a beak's width. I can't tell which bird it was now! Can the FF be the reason? They were hanging out at the picnic table so I took pictures of them all - and I want to ask will they ever not look like vultures? I mean, they are downright UGLY! Will they grow out of it? They are three months now.
> 
> View attachment 11761
> 
> ...


Now...that's incredibly interesting! I've never once heard of a chicken with a cross beak stop having a cross beak..supposedly it is a genetic flaw and the bird actually has a crooked skull. Others have said it's from abnormal temps in the incubator.

Could it be merely a nutritional defect in such a bird that causes it? Like, maybe it's a B12 deficiency from birth due to insufficient small bowel function and the FF increases the health and B12 production of the bacteria found there and it corrects the anomaly? Man, I'd like to know the answer to that!!!

I'm going to ask folks on BYC who have cross beaks and are feeding FF and see what, if anything, has changed. I'm thinking if it had changed we'd be hearing about it, because that is pretty remarkable. I've not heard of anything that will reverse that problem. That's so coooooolll!!









As for the SLW....I've never felt they were a pretty bird and the ones I have had here and there down through the years were always culled for bad temperament and less than stellar laying and foraging. The golden laced ones are very pretty but I've never had any and don't know about their traits at all.

But..at that age, few birds are as pretty as they will be when they are mature, so you may find you like how they look more when they are fat girls with red combs and wattles.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

back2simplelife said:


> ok ya'll.. a lil help here, pretty please!.. I bought a new (adult) flock of 9 hens and 1 young roo. My babies (11 weeks yesterday) have been FFing about 10 days now and I have their amounts down.. I am feeding them twice a day. They finish it but don't leave hungry. However, the adults I just can't seem to get the correct amounts down! Should I be feeding them once or twice a day? I def don't want to over (or under) feed them! When I started the babies, I just feed them the normal amount I would dry and then cut back until they ate it all within 20-30 mins. (time it takes to do the rest of the chorse) but.. these adults I started right in with FF their first feeding here, so I have no idea what they "normally" ate. Can someone who has about the same flock size (10 adult LF) give me an idea of how often and how much they are feeding? (I know it may differ a lil but at least that gives me a start) I currently do not have any dry out for them and although they do free range a couple hours of the day.. they had never free ranged before and let's just say they aren't very good at it and usually spend all their time dust bathing.. lol Thanks so much for any advice you can give!


I'd say they aren't foraging much because they aren't very hungry. I tell folks to feed them just enough that they can fill their crop twice in a day's time...and that's all. So each bird should get about what would fit into your cupped hand X2.

For a flock of 10 standard birds..if they were mine and they were confined most of the time, they would get approx. 4 c. of wet feed a day...or 2 full scoops that were of the 2 c. measure. They are confined, so they get very little exercise and so don't need as much as most folks think they need.

If you were feeding that as dry feed, you would give 4 scoops of dry....8 c. of dry feed. Now, that's all just approximates, you understand and nutrition needs tweaked according to the condition of the bird...not much,but just by degrees, when you judge they need a little more or a little less.

Incidentally, that's the same measure of feed I give my free range flock of 14 birds...but they get more nutrition out on range than they get from the feed and I feel they are still too fat, so just this week I cut the layer ration by adding steamed barley, a low protein grain. The next bucket of feed I fill up will have the lower protein mix in it...they will still get the same amount of feed but it won't keep so much fat on them.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Jim said:


> Starting to mix some FF with the H and H pellets I have, my flock loves the old fashioned crumble, but not so much on the pellets, needless to say, I will not carry pellets any more unless special order, or, if turning it to FF works out well. And, it may be a way to use up the last of the Texas Natural that they now won't touch. So, I have it in a bucket, lightly covered. I added water, stirred a little, and added a glug of the ACV with mother . Fingers crossed! I plan to try it on one flock, and see how it goes. I will update in a few days to a week.


Jim, those pellets will dissolve into the same consistency of the crumbles in the water, so it will all look and taste the same to the birds and they will eat it and say, "Thank you" with their mouths full!


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## kaufranc (Oct 3, 2012)

Been feeding the FF for about a month. The chickens and guinea hens love it! I am not seeing a change in my eggs count yet but they are molting. Any body else's chickens/ducks molting?


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## Chippets (Jun 8, 2013)

Here's the only pic I could find of that chicken with the beak problem - now maybe it isnt actually crossbeak, I dont know, and she wasnt born this way, but you can definitely see the tip of her beak isnt right. I enlarged it so you can see it better. But now I can't find one with a beak like that.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

kaufranc said:


> Been feeding the FF for about a month. The chickens and guinea hens love it! I am not seeing a change in my eggs count yet but they are molting. Any body else's chickens/ducks molting?


Looks like someone murdered some chickens in my coop and yard! Everyone's birds are molting right now, tis the season!  Egg count won't come up until all that is resolved, as nutrition will be placed in feather regrowth and hormones cool off a little.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Chippets said:


> Here's the only pic I could find of that chicken with the beak problem - now maybe it isnt actually crossbeak, I dont know, and she wasnt born this way, but you can definitely see the tip of her beak isnt right. I enlarged it so you can see it better. But now I can't find one with a beak like that.
> 
> View attachment 11777


Yep, that's a cross beak! That's remarkable...never heard of one correcting itself before.


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## Chippets (Jun 8, 2013)

Bee said:


> As for the SLW....I've never felt they were a pretty bird and the ones I have had here and there down through the years were always culled for bad temperament and less than stellar laying and foraging. The golden laced ones are very pretty but I've never had any and don't know about their traits at all.
> 
> But..at that age, few birds are as pretty as they will be when they are mature, so you may find you like how they look more when they are fat girls with red combs and wattles.


I have to agree, Bee....those SLW are probably going into the freezer as soon as I get some Black Australorps to fill out the flock! The FFA girlfriend had suggested them as being friendly. I do not see it at all! I haven't even got these three named, that's how little I really care, lol. They just act the way they look - UGLY!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Awwwwww, NOW we've done it! All the SLW fans are gonna throw rotten eggs at us for that!


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

Bee said:


> Awwwwww, NOW we've done it! All the SLW fans are gonna throw rotten eggs at us for that!


No doubt...I will throw the first. Loretta (our only SLW) is one of my more talkative and curious(nosey) in my flock. Of course, I think my wife would agree with the two of you.


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

Fantastic on the cross-beak. I finally bit the bullet and decided to risk a return of the hawks, so I put up ssome cheap orange plastic fencing across the only unfenced access to my backyard, and started yesterday with free-ranging them. A little in the am, more in the afternoon, and switched their ff to evening. I've got lots of crickets (yum) and other stuff. Earlier this week my youngest cat came up with a lizard, and then a mouse, on the same day. This am, one of my amber-whites came up in front of where I was sitting, dropped her new prize just long enough for me to see it before she munched it (a big, fat grub). A short time later, another of the AW's found a lizard, but she didn't catch it right off, and then all the others were on it with her. I think she was the one who finally caught it, but then she got sly, and didn't let on, she walked back to the pen, found a private corner, and then she munched away while the others were still looking for it. I would say my girls are natural at foraging! Not to mention how proud and happy it makes them!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Just think about how much natural protein you saw getting consumed in that short time...imagine how much they glean in a _day's_ time?

The lizards and snakes around here are very wary as the chickens are constantly on the prowl for them...and the cat too. Nothing like that stands a chance around here.

Another thing you will soon notice in your yard by next year or so....lush, deep green grass. It's a constant fertilization and aeration of the soils, as well as removal of pest bugs and grubs. It's like having many small gardeners tending your lawn for the price of chicken feed! And they give you eggs in change....


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

Ain't it great! Yesterday I sold 3 dozen of my eggs, I found someone who will buy all my surplus now, so now that I won't be buying much feed, the girls will be pulling their own weight.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Bee said:


> I'd say they aren't foraging much because they aren't very hungry. I tell folks to feed them just enough that they can fill their crop twice in a day's time...and that's all. So each bird should get about what would fit into your cupped hand X2.
> 
> For a flock of 10 standard birds..if they were mine and they were confined most of the time, they would get approx. 4 c. of wet feed a day...or 2 full scoops that were of the 2 c. measure. They are confined, so they get very little exercise and so don't need as much as most folks think they need.
> 
> ...


Thank you!! I am feeding them WAY too much then!  No wonder it seemed like a lot but they were eating almost all of it up so I wasn't sure. 
It's HOT here and although the gate is open.. they actually only come out in the morning and late afternoon/early evening and then stand in the water the rest of the day. There is very lil green grass here as everything is burning up so thinking those may also play in a bit. I only have two that have foraged before and those run under the house during the heat of the day and just lay there.. no scratching around.. I am slowly getting them use to being out.. first couple days I literally had to shut up the coop/run! Now I am to the point were I can push them out and they will stay for a few before returning..Only a couple will go on their own though. I have only had them a week..slow and steady I guess!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Chippets said:


> Here's the only pic I could find of that chicken with the beak problem - now maybe it isnt actually crossbeak, I dont know, and she wasnt born this way, but you can definitely see the tip of her beak isnt right. I enlarged it so you can see it better. But now I can't find one with a beak like that.
> 
> View attachment 11777


*Did a little research and, though it's not conclusive, it could maybe explain what happened to your bird. For some reason that particular bird may have been suffering from a nutritional deficiency of lysine, methionine and other amino acids.*



> *Nutritional Deficiencies:* Many beak deformities are caused by simple nutritional deficiencies. *The most common are methionine, sulpha, biotin (a vitamin) and calcium.* Without enough of these the beak material doesn't form properly and tends to bend rather than wear properly. All of these are common deficiencies in the typical diets fed to cage and aviary birds around the world. The problem is easily solved by supplementing with a good quality supplement, such as "Daily Essentials3 and CalciBoost". Remember that the 'new' beak material will take 9-12 months to reach the 'wearing zone' so some beak trimming may be required in the meantime.
> 
> 
> *Liver Damage:* Another possible cause is liver damage. Again the beak becomes too soft to wear properly. Unfortunately the liver does not repair itself well so this is harder to solve. However ,we can reduce the amount of work the liver has to do and this is often more than enough for the symptom to go away completely. *Methionine is again important as is another amino acid - lysine.* Again Daily Essentials3 and CalciBoost should sort it out though even more of these amino acids will be supplied if Gold Label Feast (a soft food) can make up 25% or more of the diet. Your avian vet will be able to assess the bird's liver performance with simple blood tests. Remember that the 'new' beak material will take 9-12 months to reach the 'wearing zone' so some beak trimming may be required in the meantime. - Malcolm Green, Director, The Birdcare Company - malcolm [at] BirdcareCo.com


*And the FF increases the levels of these same amino acids in the feed...*



> *Bacterial fermentation produces lysine,* often increasing its concentration by many fold and making grains nearly a "complete protein", i.e. one that contains the ideal balance of essential amino acids as do animal proteins (11, scroll down to see graph). Not very many plant foods can make that claim. *Fermentation also increases the concentration of the amino acid* *methionine* *and certain vitamins.*


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## Chippets (Jun 8, 2013)

Wow, Bee, that's amazing! Thanks for digging up the info on it! And thanks for all the wonderful wisdom you share for the benefit of our birds - down to earth, no nonsense, tried and true advice that gives results. You are truly a fine feathered friend to us all!


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

kaufranc said:


> Been feeding the FF for about a month. The chickens and guinea hens love it! I am not seeing a change in my eggs count yet but they are molting. Any body else's chickens/ducks molting?


Most of one are molting, but only the BCM is naked. Poor girl's looking quite bare right now.

The golden comet lost all her back and neck feathers, but since on FF, her back feathers have come in beautifully. Just her neck is bare now.

The buff Orpington only lost a little feathers around her comb but have since grown all of it back.

The Easter Egger was given to us with no back feathers because of too many over zealous Roos in their flock. I am posting a pic of her with a bare back, but she has since grown some beautiful feathers on her back. Not quite full yet, but give her a couple more weeks and she will be gorgeous.

The big difference I have noticed with the FF is yolks are bigger and they stand higher.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Good feedback! I love before and after pics!


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

ok.. my birds are def not happy with me this morning! Since I was feeding double what I should be, I cut it down..... Maybe it's WHAT I am feeding? Maybe I should change it or add something else? Right now I am mixing one bucket of feed for my two separate pens.. one has 5- 11 weekers in it.. and the other has 10 adult LF. I still have some medicated chick starter so I am mixing that 1 part to 3 parts growing pellets. The adults have oyster shells on the side. Do you think I should start doing two buckets maybe? One with Layer pellets and one without? I have read mixed reviews on feeding layer pellets to younger birds so I dunno... advice? They finished the 2 cups of feed (they usually get 4 cups, twice a day for the past 6 days I have had them) in about 5 mins this morning! Then ran off to go forage like they always do in the morning


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

You're feeding a pretty high pro mix, so you can't continue to feed them too much..that has problems later on. If you want to change that so that you can feed more feed, you can cut that mix by 50% by adding a low protein grain that provides bulk and fiber..like steamed barley or oats, etc. 

I've always given young birds layer ration with good results...and still have those young birds laying eggs right now at 6 yrs old and have had some 7 yrs doing the same. 

Feed in the evening if you free range all day and they will get most of their nutrition out on the grass...if you have good forage. If not, your choice on feeding times. 

I have 14 standard breed birds and am feeding laying mash of 16% right now and am dishing out 4 c. wet feed each evening...and that's still too much as they are waddling fat right now, so I'm cutting the grain can by 1/3 with barley, 2/3 layer mash...as I move into winter, I'll cut it further by doing 1:1 ratio of barley/oats and layer ration. 

And those birds will STILL stay good on those feed amounts. They may not be happy about it but someone has to look out for their laying life and that's me. And it works...I've got old gals still putting eggs in the nest.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Bee said:


> You're feeding a pretty high pro mix, so you can't continue to feed them too much..that has problems later on. If you want to change that so that you can feed more feed, you can cut that mix by 50% by adding a low protein grain that provides bulk and fiber..like steamed barley or oats, etc.
> 
> I've always given young birds layer ration with good results...and still have those young birds laying eggs right now at 6 yrs old and have had some 7 yrs doing the same.
> 
> ...


Ok.. that helps a lot!! EEKK! I didn't think of it being too hot! So since it is so high/hot.. would it be ok to feed them this combo until I am out of the starter? which is this combo more harmful to, the adults or 11 week old babies? I have about 1/6 of a 50# bag left or is that just asking for problems? 
And is the combo of just layer pellets and growing pellets too high for the babies or adults? Oh I need to read up on nutrition! 
I have about 1/2 of 50# grower and 1/6 of the 50# of starter so time to buy more feed and I honestly have no idea what to get! Heading to the feed store today so.. what on earth do I get! lol
What is "steamed" grain? You mean you actually steam it or just soak it like you would for humans?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

back2simplelife said:


> Ok.. that helps a lot!! EEKK! I didn't think of it being too hot! So since it is so high/hot.. would it be ok to feed them this combo until I am out of the starter? which is this combo more harmful to, the adults or 11 week old babies? I have about 1/6 of a 50# bag left or is that just asking for problems?
> And is the combo of just layer pellets and growing pellets too high for the babies or adults? Oh I need to read up on nutrition!
> I have about 1/2 of 50# grower and 1/6 of the 50# of starter so time to buy more feed and I honestly have no idea what to get! Heading to the feed store today so.. what on earth do I get! lol
> What is "steamed" grain? You mean you actually steam it or just soak it like you would for humans?


Ask if they have steamed barley or oats and mix your current feed by 50% with this and all will be great. You don't really need to read up on nutrition that much...I never have other than the effects of high pro diets on the birds, which I did when researching why everyone's meat birds seem to die on them. 

Don't worry so much....birds are pretty forgiving and if the damage to their bodies hasn't been long term can easily right themselves with a leaner diet. You don't have to get out a calculator and add or subtract protein and calcium percentages and all that foofaraw...just pay attention to feeds you buy that have higher than 16% protein and try to keep it there or under there. Common sense tells you that, if you mix a grain that has 6% protein to a feed mix of 16% you are going to get a lower percentage on average..no matter what that may be. I never count...just add the cheaper grains and roll on. 

I am constantly tweaking feed amounts to the flock because with free range, you never know just how good huntin' has been, then you add a grain feed supplement and they are too fat before you know it! It's a bit tickly but you will get the rhythm of your flock once you kill some birds and see where they store fat and what it can do to them...then you watch their feed intake to avoid their getting too fat.

A fat bird is never going to be the best layer..at least, not for long...usually those trim, just right gals.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Thank you!!!


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

I'm on day 6 of FF and it seems to be going well. I was using feeders that I filled once a week and they are all out of feed now and today was the first day of FF only. I think I fed them enough today. They all seemed very hungry at feeding this afternoon though. I am finishing up the 20% laying crumbles I have so I am mixing it with plenty of scratch. 

I have noticed that the beards on the Ameraucanas are getting messy with the FF and the others are picking at them. I think I have read this in another thread. Has anyone else had this problem? I'm trying to make the mix as dry as I can so its not sloppy. 

Another question. Can you start chicks at 2 days old on FF?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Other folks with silkies and EEs report the FF does get in the feathers and such, not sure what they do about that, if anything. My chickens just wipe their beaks and faces off on the ground or the deep litter in the coop.

Some folks are raising their feeders so that the birds can't put their faces down in the stuff...my trough is up far enough that they have to put their necks over the lip of it and then put their beaks down for the food, so they never seem to get any on their wattles at all.

Like so....










FF is especially good for chicks as it cultures their bowels and helps protect them against cocci and other harmful bacteria that can overgrow in the bowels of chickens. It starts them out right!


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Oh LW! I should take a pic of my Ameraucana! She is a MESS!! I have already bathed her twice this week too! Our feeder is up pretty high so I have no idea how she is doing it. No one dares to go near Queenie though so no pecking. I did switch from oatmeal consistency to more like peanutbutter which did help some. I am sorry I have no answers for ya.. hopefully someone else does!


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

lol thats the same advice I have given people about hanging feeders and waterers. Don't know why I didn't think of that. I am going to have to get more trough type feeders. I have 7 different pens and don't have enough to go around. 

This is a lot more work than filling feeders once a week but I think Bee is right. It is one more way of keeping in touch with your birds and their needs. 

Lol Bathing the chickens is where I draw the line. I know they would do just like the dogs and go take a dust bath as soon as I did.


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## Elfinworld (Jul 11, 2013)

LittleWings said:


> lol thats the same advice I have given people about hanging feeders and waterers. Don't know why I didn't think of that. I am going to have to get more trough type feeders. I have 7 different pens and don't have enough to go around.
> 
> This is a lot more work than filling feeders once a week but I think Bee is right. It is one more way of keeping in touch with your birds and their needs.
> 
> Lol Bathing the chickens is where I draw the line. I know they would do just like the dogs and go take a dust bath as soon as I did.


I was using trough feeders but my chickens liked to scratch the FF out and whatever else they do to get their faces all messy with FF.

So today a lightbulb went off in my head and I started using a loaf pan that I bought at a yard sale for bread making. It's worked out great!!!


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

LittleWings said:


> lol thats the same advice I have given people about hanging feeders and waterers. Don't know why I didn't think of that. I am going to have to get more trough type feeders. I have 7 different pens and don't have enough to go around.
> 
> This is a lot more work than filling feeders once a week but I think Bee is right. It is one more way of keeping in touch with your birds and their needs.
> 
> Lol Bathing the chickens is where I draw the line. I know they would do just like the dogs and go take a dust bath as soon as I did.


hahaa.. well.. when I got her, she was in the pet carrier for a couple hours and the other three well.. let's just say she was green and stinky! Second time was when she took the jump in the FF and I was afraid the ants would get her needless to say.. I won't be doing that again for awhile! I don't think these gals saw much human contact and DEF not children! 
I am using those long skinny plastic chick feeders on 2x4's while we make some gutter ones. I was using a round dog dish type pan.. until she took a bath in it! But yeah.. 7 pens could make that rough! 3 was rough enough!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Every time I hear folks describe all their pens of birds I thank God for how simple my flock life is! I would never do what you all do...I'm much too lazy for that! 

I just ran all my livestock together in one large fence and all the tall stuff drank out of the same bucket (dogs, sheep and cows) and all the short stuff ate and drank out of the same feeders and waterers (all ages of chickens). 

Sheep and cows ate grass and dogs ate their dog food off the ground....here ya go, here's a scoop for you and for you, see ya later, bye! 

Now I just fill one waterer for dog, cat and chooks of all ages, slop down food on the ground for the dog and on a hay bale for the cat each morning and throw a little FF in the trough for the birds each evening. Nothing to it...so lazy.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

So you just feed the chicks twice a day what they can eat in 30 mins like the adults?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

When they are little, I do..clear up to 2 wks and then I let mine out on free range and start feeding them with the big flock once a day each evening. 

Little chicks may take longer than 30 min. so YMMV...if you are using a heat lamp, the FF can kind of bake on top if it's anywhere near that heat source and it can just dry out on top, even if it's not near the heat lamp and then it may get harder for them to eat it properly, so that's why I only place out what they can eat in 30 min to an hour for the little guys.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Will I hurt to put an egg in FF


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I never tried it...but I doubt it would hurt anything.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

I have a egg from one the 10 hens I bought! However, it's soo thin! I am switching to laying pellets today with them (mixed with oats and alfalfa).. they also have oyster shells available but haven't touched them. Do you think they will get enough calcium from the laying pellets or do I need to add oyster shells IN the ff? I really need to read up on eggs.. how long will it take to see a difference so I know if the pellets are enough?

Edited: note to self, don't type before coffee


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

back2simplelife said:


> I have a egg from one the 10 hens I bought! However, it's soo thin! I am switching to laying pellets today with them (mixed with oats and alfalfa).. they also have oyster shells available but haven't touched them. Do you think they will get enough calcium from the laying pellets or do I need to add oyster shells IN the ff? I really need to read up on eggs.. how long will it take to see a difference so I know if the pellets are enough?
> 
> Edited: note to self, don't type before coffee


The laying ration should contain enough calcium for birds in production. At this time of year birds are going through a molt and so a lot of their dietary calcium is diverted to feather growth...but adding more calcium on top of that won't necessarily make their eggs more firm, as the body can only utilize so much calcium and then the rest is excreted.

Time will help with the strength of the shells...just time.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Thanks! I have NO idea what they were eating before a week ago. Yes, they are molting bad but it's to the point where she is stepping on them, breaking them and then eating them! (I have gotten a couple that weren't broke..we got them last Sat and she started laying on wednesday! (but super thin) and watched her break 1 this morning..as well as finding a 'wet' nesting box two days before!) The flock I look over is showing no weakness in their egg shells and are molting as well. SO confusing.. lol I will give them the layer mix (instead of the starter and grower mix I was for the past week) and see how it goes! Crossing fingers that is enough and she stops eating her eggs!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

She'll stop when the eggs stop breaking as each bird has different cycles and nutritional needs, but you can't tailor the flock's nutrition around one bird. If the rest are doing fine on what you feed, then it's not a flock problem but a bird problem...and most bird problems will work themselves out one way or another eventually. 

Meanwhile, the eggs she is eating are probably helping her nutritionally above the regularly ration...she's providing her own supplements and so it's all good in the neighborhood! 

In time she will either get it resolved or stop laying well... or at all.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

She is the only laying so far out of a flock of 9 hens.. so I have no idea on the others..I guess they are still adjusting to the new home and all new birds (they were only together for 1 week before I bought them) hopefully they will start soon and I will know for sure if it's just her or if it's all of them! 8 of the 9 were laying before.. the BLRW pullet could be any day now is what I was told.

Ooops.. make that 7 out of the 9.. I forgot that and the Ameraucana just got off a cycle of being broody and hadn't laid right before I bought her.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I've never had layer ration let me down on nutrition for the flock, so I'm thinking it's the time of year (for the thin shells) and the move that is the egg problem(no laying). 

Now that you are fermenting the feed, that just punches it up to the nth degree and so you can rest assured that they are getting all the nutrition in it and now even more!


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Bee said:


> I've never had layer ration let me down on nutrition for the flock, so I'm thinking it's the time of year (for the thin shells) and the move that is the egg problem(no laying).
> 
> Now that you are fermenting the feed, that just punches it up to the nth degree and so you can rest assured that they are getting all the nutrition in it and now even more!


No hun, I wasn't feeding layer... I have 5- 11 week old babies Had an opportunity to rescue 2 of my 9 hens 2 weeks ago then just kind of fell into this deal with the 7 hens a week ago today. I had read that grower (with oyster shells on the side) was the way to go with a mixed age flock (which I was planning on doing until I realized how sassy half of these old hens are.. now I am waiting until the babies get bigger in size!) so that was the route I was going when I picked up feed the day I rescued the 2.. I started FF 2 days after getting the 2 hens...The 7 have had FF since they got here! I had a lil amount of chick starter left so I was mixing that with the pellets but they were eating a TON (8 cups of FF a day! between the 10 LF) You had suggested I mix 1/2 oats with that ration as it was too hot of feed and they were eating too much (yet cleaning it up FAST!). When I went to the feed store, the guy talked me into the layer which I agreed after seeing how thin my RIR's egg was and alfalfa pellets, as well as the oats. So I am currently mixing two buckets..(today is my first day.. it's been 'cooking' for a day and a half now and has lots of bubbles!) one with 1 part alfalfa (16%), 2 parts layer (16%)and 3 parts oats(9.5%) for the 10 total LF adults.. then the 1 part starter(20%), 2 parts grower (I am not sure the % as it's in an unlabeled bag from the co-op), 1 part alfalfa(16%) and 4 parts oats(9.5%) for the 5- 11 weekers. 
Tonight will be both pens first go at this new mix. The babies do not free range yet but do get lots of greens and bugs brought to them! (my kiddos think that's their job.. lol) They are in a 110 sqt' coop so lots of room! 2x a week they do get in the tractor and go to town. Then with the adults, I open the gate in the morning and shut it at night.. however, 6 are only foraging a couple hours of the day (morning and night when it's cool) the other 4 only come out for a dust bath then return. They have never free roamed before a week ago. 
I hope I am doing this right! And yes.. I am an over thinker and it does get me into trouble!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

back2simplelife said:


> I have a egg from one the 10 hens I bought! However, it's soo thin! I am switching to laying pellets today with them (mixed with oats and alfalfa).. they also have oyster shells available but haven't touched them. Do *you think they will get enough calcium from the laying pellets or do I need to add oyster* *shells IN the ff?* I really need to read up on eggs.. how long will it take to see a difference so I know if the pellets are enough?
> 
> Edited: note to self, don't type before coffee


I guess this question kind of threw me then.... thought you were asking if the layer ration would help with the thin shells or if you should add more calcium on top of that and I was replying that it shouldn't be needed if you are feeding layer ration.

Now, I'm lost...so you aren't feeding layer currently but are planning to do so? If so, same answer.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

correct.. that was the question,....basically if I make the switch today.. how long should I give it to see a difference in the shell before adding oyster layer to the FF.. I apologize! I hadn't had coffee yet!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I would never add oyster shell to the layer. If you want to offer it free choice, I'd go ahead but when you place it in the feed they have no choice to consume it. Thin shells are not always a sign of low calcium in the body and especially at this time of the year...it could mean the calcium they have from their nutrition is being utilized in feather regrowth than in shell production.

If you force them to consume more calcium, they will just excrete it through the kidneys...after awhile that can be pretty tough on the renal function. Their blood stream can only hold so much calcium, some is utilized by the body in various ways, some is stored in the bone until needed and the rest is excreted as waste. 

But you cannot force the body to carry more calcium in the blood stream and use it for both eggs and feathers...it just doesn't work that way. They can only hold so much and the body's hormones decides where it is needed most by slowing down a little in the form of less egg production.

Some folks think they can force a bird to just consume more calcium and do both those things, but I'm thinking that does not work in that way. I used to be one of those people...briefly...until I realized from my education in nursing that I was just chucking that calcium out the back side when I put it on the feed and forced them to consume it to get food. 

Offer it free choice if you want them to have extra...I used to do that also until I realized that it never really made any changes that time didn't already make...took just as long for them to feather, get back to thicker shells, etc. 

I don't know that I've bought OS for going on 4 yrs or so now~and just bought it a couple of times after joining BYC and heard everyone thought it was a must (it wasn't)...just a waste of money. 

It occurred to me that no one in the generations of chicken keepers in my family had ever bought OS and why in the world was I doing it now? So, I stopped all that and found I was just fine. They really didn't need it. 

They get enough calcium from the layer ration and green, leafy graze on free range to supply their needs, from what I've seen.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

gotcha! Thanks again!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Has anyone smelt a smokey smell in their coops? 
Possibly the poop?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I haven't...my coop smells of pretty much nothing. But then, my coop is open air so any smells are probably whisked away.


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## Sgtfirstwife (Nov 28, 2012)

Okay I have a question. I am currently feeding my chickens, ducks and 1 turkey mixed breed feed. I usually put in some scratch and on occasion some vitamins on the feed. I feel they need some extra stuff. I go to the feed store and see all this different kinds of feed, whole and cracked corn, alfalfa cubes and loose alfalfa, sweet feed roiled oats I don't want to buy a zillion bags of feed, but what should I feed them? Can those of you with mixed flocks tell me what you feed your flocks? I need to know my options. Thx


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

What is making you feel you should feed something extra?


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Mold---- Not enough liquid, didn't stir it often enough, or didn't add enough ACV? UGH! What did I do wrong? Saw a film yesterday and thought it was just the mother.. nope! Today it's full grown funky mold *bangs head on wall*


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

If you are feeding it every day, how is it not getting stirred? I'm betting what you see as mold is just your ferment growing deeper and more and it looks like funky mold. I've been using the same scoby since last fall and haven't added ACV to it since then...and no mold. 

Can you post a pic? And, please don't throw it out....just stir it in and take a sniff of your mix. If it smells like vomit,your still good on the FF.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

It's getting stirred.. 1-2 times a day so I dunno.. totally reaching for straws here. I can try to get the light right... raining/clouded right now and when I tried to snap a pic using the flash the blue/green color turned white. This is def furry! I am a kombucha brewer and it's very similar to my first batch which turned to mold :-( .. let me go try again. Will post as soon as I figure out how to get a good pic


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

If you are seeing little white patches that look furry, don't worry...just stir them in. Keep the sides of your bucket scraped down and you won't see them as often. 

Everyone else is reporting the same thing in this heat but the microbes in the feed mix are more powerful than the little ones outside your feed mix, so just stir them in and let the good guys feed on the bad guys. We've all been doing this and it works out just fine.


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## GratefulGirl (Sep 10, 2012)

Mine smells like beer lol!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

That's what I call the smell of vomit...  I don't care for the smell of beer or other alcohols, so to me they smell like vomit, for the most part.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

ok.. took a few.. let me see which one shows the best.. no, no white patches.. whole top covered in a greyish/bluish/green.. Smells like yucky chicken poop to be honest! (I like the smell of fermented food so all I can say is NOT like it normally does)


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

Bee said:


> That's what I call the smell of vomit...  I don't care for the smell of beer or other alcohols, so to me they smell like vomit, for the most part.


If I drank a beer, it would become vomit... (lol)


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

I can't get the grey color to show.. the pic looks more white.. did 3 pics.. 1 whole bucket, 1 upclose and 1 a scoop


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Also, I am keeping it inside at about 75-78 degrees as it's WAY too hot outside here in TX! The slop on the sides were from me moving it outside so I could take a pic in the light. I have been very careful to keep the sides clean. Bad thing is.. both my buckets are this way :-( Any idea how to avoid this happening again? I am assuming I need to dump and soak the buckets in white vinegar/water and boiling water before starting again to make sure the mold is killed (or is that just with human ff? lol) ? Maybe it was the alfalfa pellets? I haven't had any issues in the 2 weeks we have been using FF.. until now :-( but this is a completely different mix than what I was using so I dunno!


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## RickaRae (Aug 12, 2013)

Just starting my first batch of FF! Crossing fingers it goes well! I also had a question: I'm on well water with high iron & calcium content, will this affect the fermentation process?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

No, no, no...it's just fine..please believe me! It's just that your mother is getting well developed and showing more. You don't need any ACV in it nor do you have to wash your buckets, you have a good ferment going on and that's a good thing.

No worries! Skip on over to the FF thread on BYC and click on the pics to the right of the thread and you'll see all manner of scoby that resembles a horror flick and it's all good in the 'hood.

http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/644300/fermenting-feed-for-meat-birds/7290#post_11907350


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## RickaRae (Aug 12, 2013)

I used out flock raiser crumble. I plan on switching to a diff brand soon (if I can convince the hubby this will work!). Does this look right to start? It seems watery, what should the consistency be? Thank you!!!!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

It looks fine but the consistency is up to you...some like it soupy, some like it like porridge and some like it peanut butter, while some who use whole grains mixed in like it like mashed potatoes. 

They are all okay, only some require some straining and a little more fuss.


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## RickaRae (Aug 12, 2013)

Bee said:


> It looks fine but the consistency is up to you...some like it soupy, some like it like porridge and some like it peanut butter, while some who use whole grains mixed in like it like mashed potatoes.
> 
> They are all okay, only some require some straining and a little more fuss.


It seems to me that, logically, the soupier it is, the more difficult for the birds to eat??? Which textures take more fuss? I'd like this to be easy (another good selling point to the hubby!), but I want it to be efficient as well. What texture do you prefer?

And...

Thank you, Bee! I have read this entire thread (so I'm sure the above ???s were answered) & really appreciate all the time you've put out there to help us get started! I'm super excited to show my hubby how great this is (my confidence is high!).


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Oh thank you so much again Bee! Glad I ran to you before I threw it out! off to compare pics.. so the mother is furry? SO different.. lol.. I have done kraut, (and other veggies), Kefir, Kombucha, ACV, and the list goes on.. only actual "scoby" I have dealt with is from Kombucha and it's about 10" thick and rubbery! .. never had something look like you said.. "something out of a horror film" before!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

You're both quite welcome! I love talking about this stuff!

I like a thick mix that doesn't have to be strained, so no matter what I'm feeding, I'm mixing mine thick. When it has chick starter mixed into it, since the particles are smaller, it's more of a thick porridge that's a little smoother in texture than when it's layer mash only or layer mash with whole grains mixed in.

When I have just the layer mash or with the whole grains, my mix is like a good mortar...your hubby will know what that looks like if you've never seen it..it has a few chunks of the whole grains with the finer ground particles creating a smoothness in between.

Here's a few pics of half whole grains with layer ration....the first one is a pic of the mix I fed to meat birds:










Here's a laying mash only mix that is pulled over to one side of the bucket to show the water level that is usually about 4 in. down from the top of the mix at all times...










Here's some that has some pelleted feed in it and some whole grains..the pelleted feed dissolves into very small particles that will give it a more peanut butter or porridge consistency....


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## RickaRae (Aug 12, 2013)

Bee said:


> You're both quite welcome! I love talking about this stuff!
> 
> I like a thick mix that doesn't have to be strained, so no matter what I'm feeding, I'm mixing mine thick. When it has chick starter mixed into it, since the particles are smaller, it's more of a thick porridge that's a little smoother in texture than when it's layer mash only or layer mash with whole grains mixed in.
> 
> ...


Wonderful! Thank you, thank you! I'll keep you posted!

I love talking chicken stuff, too! Most of our family isn't into it, so they get tired of hearing me! I was so excited to find this forum! I just got an incubator & my 12 year old daughter & I are starting eggs from her 4H show rooster (Pico, a Quail Belgium Bearded D'Anver) & his GF, Jazzy Girl, a lavender (in my pic). This forum has had so much helpful info! I love it!!!


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

I do like it thick - it sticks to the beak and is less mess to the beard (ameraucanas).My girls are fine with thick. Sometimes as I cycle it (I add as I take out) if I get it it too thin, I add uncooked corn grits , or wheat bran, or quick-cook oatmeal. Now that they are free-ranging, sometimes I throw in a scoop of scratch. A can of applesauce for a bit of fruit, a little olive oil (just a splash) and a little food-grade flaxseed oil (more omega-3 in the eggs, maybe). Oh, btw, don't ever feed any rancid oil/nuts/etc to any thing/body - it's carcinogenic.


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## RickaRae (Aug 12, 2013)

kjohnstone said:


> I do like it thick - it sticks to the beak and is less mess to the beard (ameraucanas).My girls are fine with thick. Sometimes as I cycle it (I add as I take out) if I get it it too thin, I add uncooked corn grits , or wheat bran, or quick-cook oatmeal. Now that they are free-ranging, sometimes I throw in a scoop of scratch. A can of applesauce for a bit of fruit, a little olive oil (just a splash) and a little food-grade flaxseed oil (more omega-3 in the eggs, maybe). Oh, btw, don't ever feed any rancid oil/nuts/etc to any thing/body - it's carcinogenic.


I like the "less mess in the beard". We've got Belgian Bearded D'Anvers & it would be nice to keep clean beards for show! ;-) I just added a little more. It's about the consistency of cake batter, but I didn't want to add too much. I'm keeping an eye on it!


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Ok Bee.. I saw the horror pics.. lol..Glad this is normal and even more so that I wasn't the only one who freaked out! I got scared because of the color more than anything.. it looked grey to me not white.. now that I think about it though, maybe that is the alfalfa in it? Dunno! I skipped the FF tonight until I found out for sure.. and just fed them pellets.. hopefully I didn't set them back too far! My skinny birds are gaining weight, my fat birds are literally running around the yard now instead of hanging out in the coop.. my babies are HUGE and my molters have new feathers coming it! Only thing left is for the tail feathers of my poor lil EE to come back and for them to start laying eggs again! Oh, and they have naturally cut themselves back and are eating about 4-5 cups instead of the 8 when I first got them! One thing I have noticed big time though is that all of them seem so much more friendly! Two of my 12 weekers that were always stand- offish and almost flighty have completely changed personality to more calm and relaxed! They are happy which makes me happy.. believing you and feeding it tomorrow then!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

RickaRae said:


> I like the "less mess in the beard". We've got Belgian Bearded D'Anvers & it would be nice to keep clean beards for show! ;-) I just added a little more. It's about the consistency of cake batter, but I didn't want to add too much. I'm keeping an eye on it!


I fed my guys a treat consisting of egg yolk and oatmeal And the roosters wattles got messy and for the rest of the evening the hens picked it off of him  I thought it was funny! You reminded me of it


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## RickaRae (Aug 12, 2013)

That's cute! It just made me think of when my Hibbing gets something in his beard & I wipe it off! Lol!


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## RickaRae (Aug 12, 2013)

Haha! Hubby, not Hibbing! Darn autocorrect! Lol


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Ok, I need advice. I've gotten down the how-to, and have been feeding for about 2? ish or so more, weeks. I am not sure if I am missing something, but it smells horrid. It makes me want to gag. My run is where I feed them, and it's outside my back door, and it reaks. I can smell the FF in my house, and it's stored outside in my barn. 

I read that FF made with feed containing fish meal will make it smell, and after removing my layer pellets, the smell is still horrible. I only use alfalfa and oats. I still just can't stand the smell. 

Is it just my nose, or is something missing? I like the benefits, but I am seriously considering going back to dry before my whole place smells like vomited chicken poop.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

It's your nose. Keep your feed bucket out in the barn where you don't have to smell it and only feed what they can clean up in a short time. No feed, no smells. 

If you don't have a lid for your bucket, get one and only leave it cracked on one side..this contains the smell also. 

BTW, how's your sneezers? Get that all cleared up?


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

I found a perfect lid.. Use an old plastic crate a push over the bucket .. Keeps animals out but let's air in .


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Sneezers are still sneezing. I've got one adult and two juvies. I'm not really sure what else to do besides culling, and I really don't want that since they are fine other wise.


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

ShowBarnMom said:


> Sneezers are still sneezing. I've got one adult and two juvies. I'm not really sure what else to do besides culling, and I really don't want that since they are fine other wise.


I am glad to hear you saying this, was it after starting FF, I have a few now that I am noticing more sneezing, and some messier poo..or, were yours like this prior to the FF?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

> A few weeks ago I brought home a pullet that was sneezing. Hadn't been sneezing, started when I was driving home. When I got home and unloaded her, into quarantine, I noticed another one of my pullets sneezing.
> 
> A **** got all but 1 (sneezing) pullets I had in quarantine. Figured since I had another one already sneezing, and the fact of the ****, I put them together. Then I did a week of antibiotics. Sneezing didn't stop but didn't get worse.
> 
> ...


This is a quote from the history of SBM's sneezing problem...as the bird she brought home was sneezing and she already had one sneezing, I'm doubting it was the coincidental starting of FF along about that time also. The bird being brought into the flock hadn't been on the FF.

Could it also be the time of the year and the type of weather we are having? No reports of increased sneezing after starting FF on BYC, so it's not typical if that is what you are asking.

Many, many folks over there using it and no one has reported sneezing, but many folks on many different kinds of feeds this year are reporting more sneezing, cold symptoms, allergies, etc. with their flocks. Could it be the increased rains causing more molds and germs to grow in a coop/run environment?

I'm not sure, but it's something to ponder.


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

Bee said:


> This is a quote from the history of SBM's sneezing problem...as the bird she brought home was sneezing and she already had one sneezing, I'm doubting it was the coincidental starting of FF along about that time also. The bird being brought into the flock hadn't been on the FF.
> 
> Could it also be the time of the year and the type of weather we are having? No reports of increased sneezing after starting FF on BYC, so it's not typical if that is what you are asking.
> 
> ...


Indeed it is Bee! Here in gulf coast Texas, it has been dry and humid. And I have wondered if it is allergies. I have one that sounds raspy, but no other issues, normal poo,laying eggs, red comb, and so on. This is the point where we are hitting our 1 yr mark with chickens. And if they had similar issues last year at this time, we would not have noticed anything odd, as it was all new to us. This last week we have had rain a little. We are just waiting it all out, avoiding antibiotics all we can. They are getting a treat of yogurt and steamed rice later. I would rather boot the immune system and see if they can naturally fight anything off before I kill off the bad, along with the good by use of antibiotics.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Good plan! I've never used an antibiotic on a chicken....good way to get sour crop and gleet. I've never had sneezing in any of my birds either, past a couple of sneezes/wheezes with one or two hens at odd times when they have dusted too vigorously. Never lasted more than that day. 

Had one young cockerel start sneezing over cedar shavings but it resolved itself also. 

That's about it in the past 37 yrs, so I'm not one to reach for medicines..ever. I'm like you...I build strong immune systems here and any bird that doesn't have one is usually going in the yearly culling for other reasons, but it catches that reason as well.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Have ya'll tried adding garlic and oregano into the FF for a natural antibiotic?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Some on BYC have been doing that. But...it's not really necessary with the prebiotics and the probiotics being produced by the fermentation process. Both of those are better than antibiotics for health maintenance.


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

I occasionally add garlic, not for any antibiotic properties, if it even has any, it would mess up the natural flora, but because it is the best natural anti-inflammatory known, and the chickens love it. Don't give garlic to cats though, because the allicin has a certain level of toxicity for them, and I'm not sure about dogs either. I don't think either of those seek it out in nature.


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

Jim said:


> I am glad to hear you saying this, was it after starting FF, I have a few now that I am noticing more sneezing, and some messier poo..or, were yours like this prior to the FF?


Ooh, speaking of sneezing, if it is just an inflammatory reaction to something in the air, try giving them them garlic or garlic chives! My girls love eating the garlic chives, like green spaghetti, and if I add the mashed garlic to the day's portion of FF, they go after it with greater gusto (if you can imagine!)


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

kjohnstone said:


> I occasionally add garlic, not for any antibiotic properties, if it even has any, it would mess up the natural flora, but because it is the best natural anti-inflammatory known, and the chickens love it. Don't give garlic to cats though, because the allicin has a certain level of toxicity for them, and I'm not sure about dogs either. I don't think either of those seek it out in nature.


I actually meant for the sneezing. At least that is what I do for my skin babies.. ACV, raw honey to start.. if that doesn't do it then a week or so later they take garlic.


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

back2simplelife said:


> I actually meant for the sneezing. At least that is what I do for my skin babies.. ACV, raw honey to start.. if that doesn't do it then a week or so later they take garlic.


Ah, then we are reaching the same destination by different routes. I just wanted to emphasize though, that garlic is not antibiotic, just beautifully healthy


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

kjohnstone said:


> Ah, then we are reaching the same destination by different routes. I just wanted to emphasize though, that garlic is not antibiotic, just beautifully healthy


Raw garlic and oregano are both natural antibiotics and the good thing about it is they don't mess with the gut flora (and everything else) like a pharma antibiotic.


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Jim - I think my sneezing is related to weather. I think. It started beginning of July. After all that rain that happened in June. But truly I have no idea. It's not hugely contagious, as its only effecting 3 of 4 juvies, and 1, maybe 2, adults of 10. Cleaned coops, gave antibiotics, and nothing has changed or improved. Only one juvie has discharge that concerns me, but it's other wise healthy. I am going to take them off FF for about a week as I am going out of town. So I am interested to see what happens.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I've been sneezing like mad for the past month also....getting tired of it. Something in the air, for sure.


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

kjohnstone said:


> Ooh, speaking of sneezing, if it is just an inflammatory reaction to something in the air, try giving them them garlic or garlic chives! My girls love eating the garlic chives, like green spaghetti, and if I add the mashed garlic to the day's portion of FF, they go after it with greater gusto (if you can imagine!)


Well, I also have one hen that has been raspy for a while, but, eating, drinking,laying eggs, and so on just fine. I have broken out all but the garlic...I will jump to that tomorrow, My mind says antibiotic, but my heart says noooooooo.


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

back2simplelife said:


> Raw garlic and oregano are both natural antibiotics and the good thing about it is they don't mess with the gut flora (and everything else) like a pharma antibiotic.


Ok, I will find some fresh organic oregano, I have plenty of basil, sage, rosemary, but, no oregano...unless dried will work the same...


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

To be honest, I dunno in chickens.. my gut would say fresh is best as it has the oils but I dunno! maybe Bee can answer that? As humans we take oil of oregano. Both garlic and oregano work differently so when we have had sicknesses here in the household that keep dragging on, we take both garlic and oregano. Knock on wood haven't had antibiotics in this house in YEARS!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

I don't really study up on it too much...I count pretty much on NOT having to give antibiotics, be they natural or man made. Antibiotics are for sick animals and I _plan_ on not having such a thing...and so I don't.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

I have seen one thing that I didn't think about. Now that all of the wall and hanging feeders are empty I am not having the rat problem I was. With the feeders full all of the time I was filling in rat tunnels every other day. Now there are none. WooooHoooo!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Think of the money you are saving and also getting rid of disease carrying rodents! Win/win! They can pack quite a bit of feed away in one night to their nests for storage, as do the mice.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

I'm starting to get our eggs a day now!


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

The beards on my Ameraucana are getting picked out since starting FF. I am making it as dry as I can. Even the chicks are picking each others beards out. This is a bad side affect I wasn't counting on. 
Any suggestions?

Other than that, it is going great!


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

The great thing about feathers is that, like hair, they will grow back!


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## GratefulGirl (Sep 10, 2012)

I have had to abandon FF. At first it just smelled like beer but after about a month or more it changed to something too strong. It made me nauseous & I carried the smell in my nose for a long time. Wish I could handle it.....


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

GratefulGirl said:


> I have had to abandon FF. At first it just smelled like beer but after about a month or more it changed to something too strong. It made me nauseous & I carried the smell in my nose for a long time. Wish I could handle it.....


I had to give it up for the same reason


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

GratefulGirl said:


> I have had to abandon FF. At first it just smelled like beer but after about a month or more it changed to something too strong. It made me nauseous & I carried the smell in my nose for a long time. Wish I could handle it.....


Seriously,y'all?  You'd give up all that good nutrition, money savings and better health for your flocks over a _smell_? No longer than it takes to dip out feed and flop it into the feeder, I'd hold my breath or my nose either one!


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

Bee said:


> Seriously,y'all?  You'd give up all that good nutrition, money savings and better health for your flocks over a _smell_? No longer than it takes to dip out feed and flop it into the feeder, I'd hold my breath or my nose either one!


LOL We raised 6 boys, you can't gross me out! It did change from a sweet beer smell to a putrid smell, but like Bee said, it doesn't take long.

I like the benefits. The coop smells better, feed bill has been cut in half, the birds look healthier, the chicks are growing vigorously, less runny poop, yolks seem darker and firmer.

BUT! The beards on my Ameraucanas being picked out is driving me crazy. The amount of beard they have is one thing I cull for.

It is too beneficial to stop. Just hoping someone has a solution to my problem, the chickens don't have one.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Maybe a little drier mix and a higher feeder? My birds have to reach over the lip of the feeder and then down. I also have a long trough style feeder that allows the feed to be spread along it's length so it's not a deep amount of feed...just half a beak deep, so no getting the faces down into it.

Same here on the smells...I'm a nurse, country girl and mother of 3 boys. There aren't too many smells that make me nauseous anymore. This one barely registers on my nasal radar among the smells my_ very _sensitive nose finds repulsive. I just don't have a weak gag reflex is all.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

Thanks Bee. I am planing on building some wooden stands to hold metal troughs that can be washed out. I'll build different heights for different ages.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

No need for the different heights...the little ones will access the bigger troughs just fine! You can put side step bars if you want but they will still climb in them when they are real little. As you can see, the wattles never touch the feed, so maybe your bearded birds will do fine with these style of feeders.


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

We are expecting our first, and only chick this weekend. I didn't think our rooster was "getting the job done". He always seems to fall off the ladies just as he gets on. He is so much bigger than them. We has a hen go broody so I gave her 2 eggs just to see what happens. Sure enough he got the job done. One egg fell from the nesting box, and broke on day 10. We cracked it open, and there was a chick. (I have a picture if you all want to see it. It's very interesting) my question is should I ferment the chick starter?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Most definitely...it will give your chick exactly what it needs in the way of probiotics and good nutrition.


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## GratefulGirl (Sep 10, 2012)

Bee said:


> Seriously,y'all?  You'd give up all that good nutrition, money savings and better health for your flocks over a _smell_? No longer than it takes to dip out feed and flop it into the feeder, I'd hold my breath or my nose either one!


I am not usually intolerant of odors so it may be something in my meds causing this particular sensitivity. I hate it because I realize how good it is for my girls but I can't help it! I can smell it wafting across the field from their feeder and also in the living room through the door into the garage! It literally makes me feel ill y'all. No can do!!!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

That's a shame. Are you sure you're not pregnant?  

I keep the lid on mine and it's barely cracked on one side, so I don't really smell it at all until I feed and then I only feed enough that they gobble it all up in under 15 min. so I don't have to contend with the smell except with dishing it out. Makes it nice. 

I kept it in my bedroom last winter and you couldn't smell it at all in there either except when uncorked to scoop out the feed, though the ferment isn't as strong in the cooler months.


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## ShowBarnMom (Jul 12, 2013)

Bee said:


> That's a shame. Are you sure you're not pregnant?
> 
> I keep the lid on mine and it's barely cracked on one side, so I don't really smell it at all until I feed and then I only feed enough that they gobble it all up in under 15 min. so I don't have to contend with the smell except with dishing it out. Makes it nice.
> 
> I kept it in my bedroom last winter and you couldn't smell it at all in there either except when uncorked to scoop out the feed, though the ferment isn't as strong in the cooler months.


My coop and run are very close to my back porch and I could smell their feed in my kitchen


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## jennifer (May 14, 2013)

Funny you would say that! Mine was in my room which is a full basement and i did t smell a thing! It's when I moved it outside that the smell made me gag. I just pinch my nose and go on. Now it's in the coop and I have gotten used to it.. I will tell you something.. It has changed my birds. Vibrant. Happy. Healthy. Yolks are orange and firm. It's the big WOW y'all. Saving money and I don't care what the sh*t smells like. When I give my kids those eggs everyday for breakfast I feel great about it. They like it, I love saving money, I love healthy birds, all of those things work for me! I don't think of my chickens as I do my dogs but I care for them the same. Giving the best nutrition and life they can live. When I look out I. The yard and see their healthy movement, nice shiny feathers I think.. Dang the life it would be to live a chickens life in my yard! Jealous!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

The feed will smell worse the higher the fermentation and the hotter the outside temps, the more it ferments. I think it was a tough thing that folks were trying it in the summer time because it seems like it smells like that all the time but it really doesn't. It helps if it's stored in the shade with good ventilation and if the coop has good ventilation as well, I know. 

It just needs a little more managing than dry feeds but it's not fussy...just arranging things so that the feed is kept to a lower level of fermentation. Smaller batches that don't sit for days before being fed out when temps are hot can really help.


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

First the FF, and then free-range, my 8 girls are soooo healthy, the amber-whites still lay in the old nest buckets, but the australorps and ameraucanas are playing hide the eggs on me. This am, I spotted one of the auzzies laying in a spot previously abandoned. So I'm leaving her egg. She is still laying small ones, so no big loss for now. I have some wooden eggs ordered, so I should be seeing them soon, and I will put them in the wild nests when I find ones I like! That way, they won't think I'm robbing them. Looked like a good price at mypetchickens. I kept the FF in my house where I have had the little AC on all the time (as I get older, I tolerate heat less and less), but I haven't been using so much lately (for reasons I will explain...) and BOY does it stink now, so I have moved it out to the garage. The girls have been feasting so on crickets, cutworms, (sadly) preying mantises(sp? manti?), grapes (right from the vines) and fallen peaches that the fruit-flies have gotten to (they are not so much interested in non-buggy peaches now, and good because peaches are over) that they are not interested much in what I have to offer.

Who else realizes that the raw ACV w/mother is intended for human consumption???? Try using it in your seasoned, homemade dressing, and get a little of that good health for your own gut!!!! (fortunately for us, we don't need to do FF, but a little probiotic never hurts) (Ahhh, what I have learned thanks to this forum, not just about chickens...just read the bottles the ACV + mother comes out of, you can even send off for recipes.)


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Just us ol' country folks! We know. Fermented foods of all kind are great for your health and that's why so many old mountain people live to such a great age...simple and good foods, fresh air and a low stress life makes for longevity. 

My birds aren't getting much FF right now either due to the high foraging opportunities right now...not that they wouldn't WANT the FF, they always have room for that! I've just put them on a diet to keep them hungry enough to forage more...they were starting to slack and right in the biggest bug month of the season! 

I just mix smaller batches when I feed less or when the temps are hot, so it doesn't get too strong.


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## RickaRae (Aug 12, 2013)

I noticed my flock didn't care as much for the FF made with crumble/pellets (it's what I had), but they can't gobble enough of the whole grain FF. they make me feel like I'm starving them because they love it so much! Even the skeptical hubby has noticed a diff in their feather quality & overall health! I love it! I'm even getting *somewhat* used to the smell! ;-) Thanks for all of the great advice & info!!! I've been sharing it with all of my chicken friends!!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Would sprinkling a little sweet feed in the FF hurt? My birds love it anyway.. When I feed te cow they clean up his mess and I sometimes sprinkle a little on the ground of them..


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

It won't hurt but it's mighty rich feed, so I'd go low and slow on giving it and I wouldn't make it a continual thing.


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## RickaRae (Aug 12, 2013)

It sounds like a great treat!


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

I think I am feeding them too much. All of my birds have gained weight. A little too much. My hens have cut way back on laying but I not blaming all if that on too much FF, I'm sure part of it is the heat, molting and being broody. 

I feed them what they can eat in 20 minutes. They can eat a lot in 20 minutes twice a day. Mine don't get much free range time. When I start to feed, they start trying to jump through the chicken wire to get to me. Is this all just chicken lies or are the fat things really starving?

Do these 5 week old chicks seem like their bodies are too big for their heads? The white ones are Leghorn/Ameraucana crosses. They are definitely fatter than chicks I have raised on dry food.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Yeah..they're a little chunky.  You might cut back a little on the feed consumption. They always act like they are starved even if they just filled their guts..and that will happen all their lives. 

It's the time of year for lack of eggs....happens every year, year in and year out..so you are correct, it's not the FF. Just remember that the FF is a more complete protein for their digestion and they are getting more nutrients from the same amount of feed, so it's like adding supplemental protein without actually doing so. It's going to put a little junk in the trunk if you don't watch their weights.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

Thanks Bee. I just noticed yesterday how fat the chicks had gotten. I remember what you said a while back, that if the hens are waddling when they run, the are too fat. Mine are waddling. My mix is 1/2 20% layer crumbles and 1/2 scratch graines. 
Starting this afternoon they are going on the Little Wing diet.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

To give you an idea how much you are actually feeding, I am feeding 70% layer mash at 16% protein on the mash, then I mix in steamed barley for 30% of the feed at a protein level of 11%...so it brings my protein down a little bit. Later on that will move to a 50/50 mix. 

I'm currently feeding 1.5-2 c. of that mix to 14 chickens who free range all day before they get the food...which means they have to walk almost constantly to gather food, so they are pretty much burning off a lot of the calories they are consuming. So my feed is just a supplement to help restore those burned off calories. And my birds are STILL fat!

If your birds are confined, they don't need much to keep them fueled and in good condition.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

1.5 -2 C. for 14 birds?  I have been feeding 2 cups per 3 or 4 birds twice a day.  Those lying little rascals.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

LittleWings said:


> 1.5 -2 C. for 14 birds?  I have been feeding 2 cups per 3 or 4 birds twice a day.  Those lying little rascals.


Yes!!  They are lying! And, if I don't keep it to 1.5 c. and sneak it up to 2 c. I can immediately see a weight gain in my gals and a lazy attitude the next few days about foraging...then they come and sit by the back door waiting until supper time. So I cut them back to make them exercise and hunt for food.

This group of younger birds barely gets a mouthful of that feed as the older birds hog it all and they've been existing mainly on foraged feeds since 2 wks...they are now 5 mo. old and still getting most of their nutrition out on the meadow and wood line:

In this pic they are 4 mo. old...and hunting per usual:



















In this pic they are 5 mo. old...taken just the other day. And this goes to show they don't need a whole lot of feed to grow and grow well, grow healthy and big. They don't come up to the coop very much, mainly at supper time or to roost. They hang around outside or dart in to grab a mouthful of feed before they are driven off by the oldsters. Then they head right back to the Honey Comb Hideout and continue their wild, ranging lives.


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## RickaRae (Aug 12, 2013)

How much do you recommend feeding to 24 8 1/2 week old chicks who don't free range yet? I think I'm feeding too much, too!

I also feed 7 turkeys, & 19 chickens (roos & hens). They have a big yard to scratch around in, but I don't know that I would necessarily call it "free range". Plus, I work in a restaurant & bring buckets of scraps 3 days a week. They seem STARVING every time I go out to feed, but I think mine are liars, too! I'll try to get some pics of them later when I get home. I seem to be going through a lot of feed, but there's a lot of birds out there!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Let's put it like this...I was feeding 54 Cornish Cross Meat birds about 10-12 cups of FF layer/whole grains per day. They free ranged all day as well, but near the end they got penned for two weeks and they still got that same ration...maybe just a tad more but not by much. 

You have 50 birds, some very young, some turkeys, so it sort of evens out to just 50 birds eating regular rations. Then you are supplementing with scraps. You'll have to look at body conditioning to determine if they are all too fat and adjust accordingly, because it's just too hard to determine by cups of feed when you are supplementing with scraps and you also are feeding different ages and species. 

You did a good job at looking at your young birds and seeing they were ton buns so I'm thinking you will be able to see the same in your regular flock and cut back until they are more streamlined in their mobility. They will always act like their throats have been cut, so don't go by the urgency of their hunger...it's a lie and it will always be a lie. They are opportunistic feeders and so at every opportunity, they will feed vigorously.


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

I went to an agricultural fair this weekend. I was shocked when I went to see all of the chickens. Not to toot my own horn, but I have to say, my birds look 10 times better than all of the ones on display. TOOT TOOT!! Some were from the same farm that I got mine from. I'm guessing it's the ff. my birds feathers are fuller, crowns more red, and feathers have so much shine. Thank you to all who post with great info! I have learned so much. A very special thanks to Bee, who has given so much good info. I really appreciate every post!


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

Thank you, Jay!  I know what you mean by looking at other birds and noticing your own are in finer fettle..it's happened to me for years and now with the FF, even more. I also love how sweet smelling my coop is and I almost gag to go into other people's coops now...ick. Even before the FF my coop didn't smell that bad, but now the contrast is so much greater.


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## RickaRae (Aug 12, 2013)

jaystyles75 said:


> I went to an agricultural fair this weekend. I was shocked when I went to see all of the chickens. Not to toot my own horn, but I have to say, my birds look 10 times better than all of the ones on display. TOOT TOOT!! Some were from the same farm that I got mine from. I'm guessing it's the ff. my birds feathers are fuller, crowns more red, and feathers have so much shine. Thank you to all who post with great info! I have learned so much. A very special thanks to Bee, who has given so much good info. I really appreciate every post!


I know what you mean! We went to the state fair this year & I was SHOCKED at the condition of the birds! All of the birds at our po-dunk little county fair were in such better condition! There were birds there that were molting (& had ribbons!) & some had leg mites so bad, it was awful! My 12 yo, who showed for 4H for the first time this year, said she would bring her bird there, she was afraid he'd get mites from the other birds? It was sad! & we hadn't started FF yet! What a difference that's made! I love it!!!


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## RickaRae (Aug 12, 2013)

RickaRae said:


> I know what you mean! We went to the state fair this year & I was SHOCKED at the condition of the birds! All of the birds at our po-dunk little county fair were in such better condition! There were birds there that were molting (& had ribbons!) & some had leg mites so bad, it was awful! My 12 yo, who showed for 4H for the first time this year, said she would bring her bird there, she was afraid he'd get mites from the other birds? It was sad! & we hadn't started FF yet! What a difference that's made! I love it!!!


I meant wouldN'T bring her birds there (maybe its too early for chicken Facebook! )


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## kaufranc (Oct 3, 2012)

jaystyles75 said:


> I went to an agricultural fair this weekend. I was shocked when I went to see all of the chickens. Not to toot my own horn, but I have to say, my birds look 10 times better than all of the ones on display. TOOT TOOT!! Some were from the same farm that I got mine from. I'm guessing it's the ff. my birds feathers are fuller, crowns more red, and feathers have so much shine. Thank you to all who post with great info! I have learned so much. A very special thanks to Bee, who has given so much good info. I really appreciate every post!


We went to the Deerfield Fair and I agree birds looked very sad and feathers looked awful!
Mine looked way better too!


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

kaufranc said:


> We went to the Deerfield Fair and I agree birds looked very sad and feathers looked awful! Mine looked way better too!


That's where I was! I'm pretty sure I have some siblings to the faveralles that were there. I never realized when we got them. They are definitely much healthier & I think happier


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Even being on FF for a while some I my hens have missing feathers and it's been like that for a while. Will always be this way since the roosters does his thing?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

leviparker said:


> Even being on FF for a while some I my hens have missing feathers and it's been like that for a while. Will always be this way since the roosters does his thing?


Really depends on the breeds you have, the time of year and the ratio of rooster to hens and age of the rooster. Mostly, in a normal flock matrix, molt recovery is pretty quick and even quicker with the use of the FF, but if you have sex link birds, too many roosters per hen, BOs who will squat to get bred if the rooster passes within 100 yds , or other such abnormal conditions, or if it's just birds going through a hard molt, you can have that going on.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

I can't express how much better my chickens are doing on FF. Their feathers are shinier, the Pooh (smell) is better, eggs are better, eggs are larger, the chicks are growing faster and healthier with a much lower mortality rate* and* they love it.

The downside is, it is much more work feeding 7 pens of chickens FF twice a day than filling 7 feeders once a week. Thats it though. The benefit is worth the extra work. 

I have a question about FF in the winter. Will it still ferment in the cold? If my container sits in the sun will that be enough? I am on the Texas coast so it doesn't get that cold here.


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

It will still ferment in the colder temps but you'll have to mix a larger batch to give it time to ferment the whole mix. One lady on BYC has been doing FF for years in a big,plastic trash can both summer and winter....says it gets a rim of ice on it but it never really freezes where she is. 

If you find it so cold it won't ferment properly, a heated bucket can be a good solution. I'll probably be going that route this winter instead of bringing the feed in the house.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

I am hoping mine will stay warm enough without heat. I use a 20 Gal stainless pot for my mix and will leave it in full sun. 
If hers still ferments with ice then mine will do good. I doesn't freeze very often here.
Thanks!


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

I have no options here but to keep it indoors. The issue here is that between November and may the temps will NEVER climb over the freezing mark. 
Hard freeze... Can't work the ground, can't really do much but ski... And ski I shall.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

Poor thing. Nothing to do but go skiing and hunting in the Rocky MTS. 

I think we got below freezing twice last winter. We had tomatoes a week before Christmas. I often think of how hard it must be to raise chickens in places where it stays frozen for so long.


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

I know it. I'm a deprived being . This will be my first winter keeping chickens this high in altitude. I am prepared for it though. From the coop design to the feed. 
I'm sure I will need to adjust things, but I hope I'm in the right direction.


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## mstricer (Oct 18, 2012)

Just wanted to share a story to all and for the peeps that don't like the method, let me start by saying that I've been fermenting feed for less then a year, started last winter due to having to buy 100 lbs of feed a week for 15 birds, all they were doing was scattering it and wasting it. I will admit, at first I didn't like it, I work full time and feed in the morning before I go to work, I had to get up an hour earlier to do this process, I also wasn't convinced I was saving money either, I even quit once and felt guilty for not seeing it through as my birds loved it, so I gave it another go and was committed to the process. As time went on, they ate less and less but still was looking healthy,(it did tend to freeze in the winter) what convinced me the most was when I got my meat birds and was only having to buy 1 bag of feed even at the end and in the beginning used only 1/4 bag I had 25 birds. I really got into it and made my own mixture of Layena Plus, Purina Woodland Blend, scratch and BOSS, (I also use Laynea crumbles to thicken it up) No to what should convince others, just recently the molt started, my birds hit is hard losing lots of feathers, their new feathers came in right away. I also have a blind Marans that was being over mated by cockerels, due to her being an easy target, once I realized that even though I had an apron on her she was bald and her head looked horrible, I removed the cockerels and it took about a month for her to be fully feathered and she looks great. I also had a dog attack and some of my girls got their tail feathers and 2 got their tail tore almost off (the fatty part) they all had their feathers growing back in one week and the girls where it tore into the fatty part never got an infection and healed up nicely. I associate this to the feed I feed them as I don't medicate, and last years molt went horrible and it took forever for my girls to get feathers back nearly 2 months. I will never go back even though it takes me about 45 mins to feed with straining the feed.


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

mstricer said:


> Just wanted to share a story to all and for the peeps that don't like the method, let me start by saying that I've been fermenting feed for less then a year, started last winter due to having to buy 100 lbs of feed a week for 15 birds, all they were doing was scattering it and wasting it. I will admit, at first I didn't like it, I work full time and feed in the morning before I go to work, I had to get up an hour earlier to do this process, I also wasn't convinced I was saving money either, I even quit once and felt guilty for not seeing it through as my birds loved it, so I gave it another go and was committed to the process. As time went on, they ate less and less but still was looking healthy,(it did tend to freeze in the winter) what convinced me the most was when I got my meat birds and was only having to buy 1 bag of feed even at the end and in the beginning used only 1/4 bag I had 25 birds. I really got into it and made my own mixture of Layena Plus, Purina Woodland Blend, scratch and BOSS, (I also use Laynea crumbles to thicken it up) No to what should convince others, just recently the molt started, my birds hit is hard losing lots of feathers, their new feathers came in right away. I also have a blind Marans that was being over mated by cockerels, due to her being an easy target, once I realized that even though I had an apron on her she was bald and her head looked horrible, I removed the cockerels and it took about a month for her to be fully feathered and she looks great. I also had a dog attack and some of my girls got their tail feathers and 2 got their tail tore almost off (the fatty part) they all had their feathers growing back in one week and the girls where it tore into the fatty part never got an infection and healed up nicely. I associate this to the feed I feed them as I don't medicate, and last years molt went horrible and it took forever for my girls to get feathers back nearly 2 months. I will never go back even though it takes me about 45 mins to feed with straining the feed.


I'm wondering why it takes you so much longer to feed them? I have been doing the ff since July, & it only takes me about 3 mins to stir it in the morning, and scoop it out to feed them every morning as opposed to having the dry feed available all the time. I add to my ff bucket about once a week which only takes about 5 mins.


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## mstricer (Oct 18, 2012)

jaystyles75 said:


> I'm wondering why it takes you so much longer to feed them? I have been doing the ff since July, & it only takes me about 3 mins to stir it in the morning, and scoop it out to feed them every morning as opposed to having the dry feed available all the time. I add to my ff bucket about once a week which only takes about 5 mins.


I strain mine and have 6 coops to feed, sometimes it doesn't take me that long that is the longest it takes me.


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

mstricer said:


> I strain mine and have 6 coops to feed, sometimes it doesn't take me that long that is the longest it takes me.


What are you straining out?


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## Bee (Jun 20, 2013)

mstricer said:


> I strain mine and have 6 coops to feed, sometimes it doesn't take me that long that is the longest it takes me.


I can see where that would take some time, but I can save you an enormous amount of time by telling you to just mix it thicker and don't strain it...just scoop it out and feed it that way. No need to strain it at all.

I drilled holes in my troughs so that excess moisture can drain out, though it barely has time to do so as they eat it before it can sit long enough to drain.

I also drilled holes in my scoop and this allows some to drain out as I scoop it out of the bucket..but mostly I mix it thick enough that it doesn't have much to drain out. My water is usually standing about 4-6 in. below the top of my feed, so I don't often hit water unless I'm using a lot of whole grains in the mix...they tend to absorb less water than the finer ground feed mixes.

Make it easier on yourself..don't strain or drain it!  Mixing it thicker will make your feeding quicker!


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

I put oats and marigold in my feed today 

I've been putting some sweet feed just to add the grains and some richness


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## mstricer (Oct 18, 2012)

Bee said:


> I can see where that would take some time, but I can save you an enormous amount of time by telling you to just mix it thicker and don't strain it...just scoop it out and feed it that way. No need to strain it at all.
> 
> I drilled holes in my troughs so that excess moisture can drain out, though it barely has time to do so as they eat it before it can sit long enough to drain.
> 
> ...


I strain the water to continue the fermentation. If you make it think and leave it in the bucket it collects mold. I tried the double bucket and didn't like it it made it stink. I don't mind doing it, it has become routine now. I mix extra boss and scratch to fatten birds a little before winter.


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## mstricer (Oct 18, 2012)

jaystyles75 said:


> What are you straining out?


I'm removing all excess water. I had an issue once when I didn't strain water made a quick sand like mixture and a chick got stuck and died.


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

mstricer said:


> I'm removing all excess water. I had an issue once when I didn't strain water made a quick sand like mixture and a chick got stuck and died.


oh no!.......


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## Sundancers (Jun 20, 2012)

mstricer said:


> I'm removing all excess water. I had an issue once when I didn't strain water made a quick sand like mixture and a chick got stuck and died.


Thanks for the tip. (And sorry you lost the chick)


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## n8gnf (Oct 1, 2013)

I am going to mix up some FF this weekend, got back into chickens a month ago. Think I got some old birds but 2 of 6 are laying regular. Going to get more and younger ones very soon, I love watching their antics in the yard, they free range all day. They are so funny and being a professional clown I love funny. Thanks for a the good info I've picked up here.


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## Regina L (Jul 6, 2013)

I have been happily feeding FF for the last 3 or 4 months. The girls absolutely love it 
I couldn't tell how truly beneficial it has been, because I've been feeding it since they were chicks. 
I do know it saves a lot of feed, and "I feel good" about feeding it to them. 
I have a two gallon plastic pitcher, and a little wood paint mixer that I use as my spatula. 
I just keep adding water and layer feed, scratch grains, and dry legume beans (like black, red, pinto, lentils, and whatever I finding the pantry)..
And every day I pour about a pint or two to the 5 girls, and add a bit more water that I keep in a watering can by their food. 
It has worked out perfectly for me!









Hahaha this was a little frozen surprise this morning when I went to pour the water! Poor baby mouse!


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## mselainey (Jun 9, 2013)

so, after reading about feeding chickens fermented chicken feed, I thought I would check it out. I took some of the feed, added warm water and sprinkled some of the loose powder from the bottom of Jim's probiotics caps bottle to start it. Two days later, the mash has started to expand in the container, so I figure it's "live " now. Took out a bowl of it to them (looks like dark oatmeal)... and they went nuts. Usually, when I feed them a treat, there is a bit of a fight, with Sandy - our dominant hen - pecking the other two. This time, all three were going at the bowl so fast, their heads were almost a blur. whoa.... guess we have a winner.


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## Barnbum374 (Mar 14, 2013)

I tried it last week. I'm not sure if it was completely fermented after sitting for one night, but the chickens seemed to like it. The second day the top of my fermented feed was moldy. I think I should have stirred it more than once a day, but I figured I should ask before I waste another bucket of feed. Help!


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## Nuttz (Oct 22, 2013)

What's ff feed that everyone is talking about


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## kessy09 (Jun 16, 2013)

Nuttz said:


> What's ff feed that everyone is talking about


If you go to the first page of the thread there is a description. Read through a bit and you'll also find methods, benefits and reasons behind fermented feed.


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

Barnbum374 said:


> I tried it last week. I'm not sure if it was completely fermented after sitting for one night, but the chickens seemed to like it. The second day the top of my fermented feed was moldy. I think I should have stirred it more than once a day, but I figured I should ask before I waste another bucket of feed. Help!


 just mix the fuzz in. No reason waste food, the goal is to save it. Haha. Add a little more water and stir it up real well. Once a day is all I stir mine. It sits by my fridge inside, slightly warm, the flock loves it


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

Mine sit in the open doorway if the barn and I still ferments so far even though it's been 39-50 at night it sits in the sun all day


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## Regina L (Jul 6, 2013)

Nuttz, I have researched everywhere about fermented feed (FF), and it has been simply awesome!
I am not sure how it will work in the winter, because I don't know that I would like to have that "live element" sitting in my kitchen... Lol
So far I keep in an outside porch, and it faces the sun during the day (although it's been getting pretty cold in Northern Utah)
I don't stir it every day, and I have gotten to the point where I understand exactly how the fermenting process works, and when it has a little mold on top, I stir it in the mix (think of yeast in bread doughs or even cheese processing, and you won't feel grossed out about it. 
It seems to be very healthy to the chickens and economical to my pocketbook!
My dogs try to get into it every day when I'm feeding it to the girls! (I'm sure it is healthy for them too)
As I mentioned before, I've been adding all kinds of grains, legume beans, and bird seeds (they love the softened sunflower seeds), pumpkin seeds etc, together with their pellet feed. 
I never used vinegar or any kind of accelerating ingredients to ferment it. Only water that's been sitting out for over 24 hours, because they said that if the water is chlorinated, it needs to sit out in the open for a day or two, so that the fermenting process can take place..
Good Luck!
LOL I can't believe I'm giving "advice" here. 
I'm not very knowledgeable as a lot of the people who write here..,


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## Barnbum374 (Mar 14, 2013)

powderhogg01 said:


> just mix the fuzz in. No reason waste food, the goal is to save it. Haha. Add a little more water and stir it up real well. Once a day is all I stir mine. It sits by my fridge inside, slightly warm, the flock loves it


Thanks! I will try it again.


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## Apyl (Jun 20, 2012)

Barnbum374 said:


> I tried it last week. I'm not sure if it was completely fermented after sitting for one night, but the chickens seemed to like it. The second day the top of my fermented feed was moldy. I think I should have stirred it more than once a day, but I figured I should ask before I waste another bucket of feed. Help!


Mold is very bad for your flock. The idea of fermented feed is to ferment it not mold. Mold can be deadly. This is one of the reasons I do not like Fermented Feed, even though it seems very easy to do, there are ways that it can go wrong. Like anything else it is not perfect nor error proof. Here is a exert from a blog with FF direction and the link. I hope you are able to correct your FF before any birds get sick.

"You should never see mold in your fermented feed. Mold on your grains is a sign of air exposure. And moldy anything is no good, unless it's cheese. When you have mold, it means the oxygen in the environment is depleting the Lactobacilli in your lacto-fermentation. Always make sure your grains are completely covered in water and your container is sealed properly."

http://www.gardenbetty.com/2013/05/why-and-how-to-ferment-your-chicken-feed/


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## n8gnf (Oct 1, 2013)

First day using FF my girls went nuts, they loved it Will keep posted on progress. Thank you all for ski the tips.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

It's fermented feed, not rocket science. If you screw up and let it get moldy, don't feed it to your chickens. If you find mold on a loaf of bread, you throw it out, you don't feed it to your family, but you don't stop feeding them bread altogether. Its like anything else. You have to use some common sense.

It *is* easy, and your chickens *will* benefit from it. Just follow the directions. And yes, it is a little stinky. If that bothers you, don't try it.

*These are changes I have seen in my flock since starting FF. Any one of these things would be enough reason for me to use it.*
FF has cut my feed bill in half, at least.
My chickens have put on weight and look healthier.
No more rodents coming into the coop.
The coop doesn't stink.
My chicks put on weight faster and are healthier.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

LittleWings said:


> It's fermented feed, not rocket science. If you screw up and let it get moldy, don't feed it to your chickens. If you find mold on a loaf of bread, you throw it out, you don't feed it to your family, but you don't stop feeding them bread altogether. Its like anything else. You have to use some common sense.
> 
> It *is* easy, and your chickens *will* benefit from it. Just follow the directions. And yes, it is a little stinky. If that bothers you, don't try it.
> 
> ...


LW.. have you noticed more female chicks than males yet? Also was going to jump on and ask you lol.. what age did you start feeding your babies FF?


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

back2simplelife said:


> LW.. have you noticed more female chicks than males yet? Also was going to jump on and ask you lol.. what age did you start feeding your babies FF?


I haven't noticed more females yet but I haven't really been looking for that. I will have to start keeping better track.

I start my chicks on it their first meal, it's very easy for them to eat. They love it.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

LittleWings said:


> I haven't noticed more females yet but I haven't really been looking for that. I will have to start keeping better track.
> 
> I start my chicks on it their first meal, it's very easy for them to eat. They love it.


Thanks again as always! Will put some in the crock tonight


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## Barnbum374 (Mar 14, 2013)

Apyl said:


> Mold is very bad for your flock. The idea of fermented feed is to ferment it not mold. Mold can be deadly. This is one of the reasons I do not like Fermented Feed, even though it seems very easy to do, there are ways that it can go wrong. Like anything else it is not perfect nor error proof. Here is a exert from a blog with FF direction and the link. I hope you are able to correct your FF before any birds get sick.
> 
> "You should never see mold in your fermented feed. Mold on your grains is a sign of air exposure. And moldy anything is no good, unless it's cheese. When you have mold, it means the oxygen in the environment is depleting the Lactobacilli in your lacto-fermentation. Always make sure your grains are completely covered in water and your container is sealed properly."
> 
> http://www.gardenbetty.com/2013/05/why-and-how-to-ferment-your-chicken-feed/


Thanks! That was my gut feeling so I threw it out. The feed was not completely covered in water.


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## Regina L (Jul 6, 2013)

Please listen to Apyl!
He is super knowledgeable and I'm just a beginner. 
The mold that I've seen on top of my FF was really minimal when I re-stirred it in
I've gotten so used to the smell already, that when it doesn't smell that certain way, I do throw it out too.


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## Clearcut23 (Apr 25, 2013)

I've been feeding my flock FF for 3 months now. I constantly see mold on the top of it in the bucket. Haven't had a problem yet


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## n8gnf (Oct 1, 2013)

My girls have been on FF a week now and I'm noticing shine on the feathers, more color in combs and one more has started laying. I think I like this feed and I know my girls do. Thanks for the info.


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## Buddy (Aug 10, 2013)

Apyl said:


> Mold is very bad for your flock. The idea of fermented feed is to ferment it not mold. Mold can be deadly. This is one of the reasons I do not like Fermented Feed, even though it seems very easy to do, there are ways that it can go wrong. Like anything else it is not perfect nor error proof. Here is a exert from a blog with FF direction and the link. I hope you are able to correct your FF before any birds get sick.
> 
> "You should never see mold in your fermented feed. Mold on your grains is a sign of air exposure. And moldy anything is no good, unless it's cheese. When you have mold, it means the oxygen in the environment is depleting the Lactobacilli in your lacto-fermentation. Always make sure your grains are completely covered in water and your container is sealed properly."
> 
> http://www.gardenbetty.com/2013/05/why-and-how-to-ferment-your-chicken-feed/


Apyl, I read that page a while back. The author keeps her FF in a sealed jar rather than open air like many in this thread. Her system seems to make sense.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

I added a mix of sweet feed and cracked corn to my fermented feed. Thoughts? It ferments very well


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## Chippets (Jun 8, 2013)

leviparker said:


> I added a mix of sweet feed and cracked corn to my fermented feed. Thoughts? It ferments very well


That's my chicken's favorite mix!


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

What is the protein percentage in sweet feed?


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## Sundancers (Jun 20, 2012)

leviparker said:


> I added a mix of sweet feed and cracked corn to my fermented feed. Thoughts? It ferments very well


Back in the day we only used "whole grains" ... If I remember right it was 7 grains. We never used pellets or such... but that was then.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

LittleWings said:


> What is the protein percentage in sweet feed?


It's either 12 or 16


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

leviparker said:


> It's either 12 or 16


That sounds just right for fermenting.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

LittleWings said:


> That sounds just right for fermenting.[/QUOTE
> 
> How are you guys keeping the fermentation going during the winter?
> 
> Is it a bad idea to switch to pellets for the winter?


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

I hasn't been that cold here yet but on the cold days I have been setting it in the sun and trying to make larger batches so it has more time to ferment. 

It doesn't matter if you use pellets or crumbles. They both turn to mush when they get wet.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

LittleWings said:


> I hasn't been that cold here yet but on the cold days I have been setting it in the sun and trying to make larger batches so it has more time to ferment. It doesn't matter if you use pellets or crumbles. They both turn to mush when they get wet.


I just want to stop fermentation and use plain pellets this winter


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

leviparker said:


> I just want to stop fermentation and use plain pellets this winter


Oh.  You can do that, it won't hurt anything.


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

LittleWings said:


> Oh.  You can do that, it won't hurt anything.


Good. I didn't think it would but it's good to be sure. It's just easier throughout the winter to use pellets I think


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Any tips for feeding young chicks FF? I have 17 that are 10 days to 2 1/2 weeks old.. I have been just putting 4 Tablespoons down at a time and when that is gone, I add more... it seems when I add more than that at once, it gets caked down and they struggle eating it (or maybe just refuse.. not sure) I have just been putting it in a narrow, long chick feeder. NO idea how much or how often I should be feeding these guys.. lol Any advice? 

Second question.. anyone here have silkies on FF? What a mess!! Here I thought my Amers was bad.. LOL BUT, They love it so... any tips on keeping them clean to avoid feather loss?


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## leviparker (Jun 13, 2013)

I fed my young ones FF and I just filled the long trough with it and filled it when it was done.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

back2simplelife said:


> Any tips for feeding young chicks FF? I have 17 that are 10 days to 2 1/2 weeks old.. I have been just putting 4 Tablespoons down at a time and when that is gone, I add more... it seems when I add more than that at once, it gets caked down and they struggle eating it (or maybe just refuse.. not sure) I have just been putting it in a narrow, long chick feeder. NO idea how much or how often I should be feeding these guys.. lol Any advice?
> 
> Second question.. anyone here have silkies on FF? What a mess!! Here I thought my Amers was bad.. LOL BUT, They love it so... any tips on keeping them clean to avoid feather loss?


For the chicks, I add a little bit of water so theirs is runnier than the bigger birds. I fill up their trough in the morning and again in the evening.

For the Silkies, try making the mix a little drier. I started doing that and it helped with my Ameraucanas picking at beards. It doesn't have to be covered with water to ferment.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

LittleWings said:


> For the chicks, I add a little bit of water so theirs is runnier than the bigger birds. I fill up their trough in the morning and again in the evening.
> 
> For the Silkies, try making the mix a little drier. I started doing that and it helped with my Ameraucanas picking at beards. It doesn't have to be covered with water to ferment.


Thanks LW!! They are eating out of the same bucket.. The silkies are about 9-12 weeks so I was feeding them the babies food as the other bucket has layer pellets in it. I totally keep forgetting that FFing it changes it and it's ok for younger birds. So the consistency is in between. guess it's time for big bird feed.. lol Will try that with the babies as well.. sounds a lot better than feeding them every couple hours! lol


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

back2simplelife said:


> Thanks LW!! They are eating out of the same bucket.. The silkies are about 9-12 weeks so I was feeding them the babies food as the other bucket has layer pellets in it. I totally keep forgetting that FFing it changes it and it's ok for younger birds. So the consistency is in between. guess it's time for big bird feed.. lol Will try that with the babies as well.. sounds a lot better than feeding them every couple hours! lol


every couple of hours, lol, some spoiled birds!


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Jim said:


> every couple of hours, lol, some spoiled birds!


Oh you know it Jim! lol

Ok ya'll are Amers just terribly messy eaters or what? I upped the liquid and my 5 lil babies are covered with FF! They look like they have speckled feathers! I have NO idea how they did it but it's beak to tail! Now the Marans and Marans crosses only have a lil on their feathered feet.. geez! Other than looking brown instead of black, it went a lot better... maybe it's my feeder? What do ya'll use for your FF with your babies?


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

Try raising the dish slightly so only the beaks reach the food. Helps keep my flock clean. I also mix mine a bit dryer.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

powderhogg01 said:


> Try raising the dish slightly so only the beaks reach the food. Helps keep my flock clean. I also mix mine a bit dryer.


Maybe it's lack of coffee this morning or what but I can not visualize this at all. Do you have pics? These lil guys are quite different in height


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

For the chicks, I use a trough style with the holes in the top.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

just like the one I have LW.. only I have it on ground floor for the babies.. raised for the others. wonder why mine are getting drenched in it...maybe TOO runny.. humm.. will play around with it. Thanks!


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Question: When fermenting medicated chick starter, would it mess with the "medicated" part? Perhaps canceling it out? Dealing with cocci in my 17 babies right now and I have been soo careful! Trying to figure out where I went wrong so this doesn't happen again!


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

back2simplelife said:


> Question: When fermenting medicated chick starter, would it mess with the "medicated" part? Perhaps canceling it out? Dealing with cocci in my 17 babies right now and I have been soo careful! Trying to figure out where I went wrong so this doesn't happen again!


This is what Beekissed had to say about it. Post # 124
http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/644300/fermenting-feed-for-meat-birds/120#post_8853010


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

LittleWings said:


> This is what Beekissed had to say about it. Post # 124
> http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/644300/fermenting-feed-for-meat-birds/120#post_8853010


Humm.. so with that being said.. with me FF medicated chick starter.. WHY did this happen? Is the only way to avoid it next time to give them corid for 8 weeks like you do then?


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

My brooder is in the same enclosure as my adult birds so I just about have to. Just the dust from the other pens can spread it. I give them electrolytes for a few days then start giving corid at about 1/4 t. per Gal. for a couple of weeks then give them a week break with more vitamins and then go to the 1/2 t. per Gal for 3 weeks.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

scratch everything.. just figured out my starter is NOT medicated.. finding more pieces of the puzzle.. hoping what I have done so far to build their immune systems is enough to help them pull through this!


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## piglett (Jun 21, 2012)

back2simplelife said:


> scratch everything.. just figured out my starter is NOT medicated.. finding more pieces of the puzzle.. hoping what I have done so far to build their immune systems is enough to help them pull through this!


i hope it all works out for you

does anyone here feed FF in the winter to their flock?
we live in new hampshire where it can get down to -20f in the winter
i have put my hanging feeders back in with pellets in them so now they have free choice......FF or pellets.
not sure how much FF i can feed out in super cold weather
it's already starting to freeze in their coops


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

piglett said:


> i hope it all works out for you
> 
> does anyone here feed FF in the winter to their flock?
> we live in new hampshire where it can get down to -20f in the winter
> ...


Thanks! ME TOO!!!

We have super mild winters here but I do know Little Wing made a set up heated by a light bulb that looks awesome! Ours eat it so fast that there is no way it could freeze even when it does get cold here..lol


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

piglett said:


> i hope it all works out for you
> 
> does anyone here feed FF in the winter to their flock?
> we live in new hampshire where it can get down to -20f in the winter
> ...


I'm glad we don't have to deal with that down here. It doesn't get below freezing very often. I have had a nipple water system for 2 winters and it hasn't frozen up once. 
I put a 100W bulb (those are getting hard to find here) under the bottom pot and then insulated both of them with feed sacks to hold in the heat. I think the feed will still ferment in the cold, I am mainly doing it for the chickens. It is like a warm bowl of oatmeal in the morning.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

Just wanted to update ya'll.. Today is what we believe day 6 of cocci in our 17 2-3 week old chicks. (blood started Fri, started corid that day) They have been on fermented non medicated chick starter/grower with garlic as well as apple cider vinegar.. started at 1 week so 1 week for the younger ones, 2 weeks for the older ones. We are watching the cocci make it's way through the whole flock. The ones that were the worst are now the most active.. and vice versa. Still seeing blood but it no longer seems to be coming from the same chicks. I am a realist but feeling more hopeful as the minutes pass by.. I do realize we are far from out of the woods and that it is now left up to fate/greater power/whatever you want to call it. One thing for sure.. we are sure putting their immune systems to the test! I honestly believe that fermented food is to thank for making it this far! I am SO thankful I found this threat (and the one in byc!) *fingers are still crossed*
Also.. after reading.. had that "aha moment" our new chicks were hatched from broody mamas.. I do not use a nipple system but do change the water 3 times a day and the brooder box shavings every other day.. so pretty sure that is how we ended up with this parasite infection.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

It is a terrible thing. It sounds like you are taking the right steps though. 
My fingers are crossed for you also.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

LittleWings said:


> It is a terrible thing. It sounds like you are taking the right steps though.
> My fingers are crossed for you also.


Thanks LW! It's been here for 7 days.. everyone is still with us. The ones that caught it first are back to their spunky selves. I can see a few with ruffled feathers today that weren't before so it's def making it's way through all of them. However, today is the first day we have not seen blood yet since Fri! Hope this is a good sign!


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## jaystyles75 (Jul 7, 2013)

piglett said:


> i hope it all works out for you does anyone here feed FF in the winter to their flock? we live in new hampshire where it can get down to -20f in the winter i have put my hanging feeders back in with pellets in them so now they have free choice......FF or pellets. not sure how much FF i can feed out in super cold weather it's already starting to freeze in their coops


We are in nh too. The ff that they don't eat right away has frozen in the last couple of days. We did put the whole ff bin in the garage which doesn't usually get below 40. We are trying to feed them a little less to see if they eat it. I noticed they still pick at the frozen stuff. This morning I put the ff on top of the frozen hoping it would soften it a bit. Our problem is the water freezing. We don't have electricity in our coop. Trying not to have it out there. We just put a solar light but that's it. We brought the water in last night, & put it out this morning. Hopefully they will get enough before it freezes again.


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## kaufranc (Oct 3, 2012)

We rotate waters too in the winter. Bring frozen down at night and bring fresh up in the morning.
Kinda sucks but we get use to it!


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## minmin1258 (Nov 5, 2013)

The only place I have to keep the FF in winter is in my house. I wNt to start feeding it to my girls but am worried I won't b able to store it where it will properly ferment. I have a sensitive nose and I'm OCD about keeping my house clean and odor free. Would the smell be too strong t keep it inside?


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## piglett (Jun 21, 2012)

jaystyles75 said:


> We are in nh too. The ff that they don't eat right away has frozen in the last couple of days. We did put the whole ff bin in the garage which doesn't usually get below 40. We are trying to feed them a little less to see if they eat it. I noticed they still pick at the frozen stuff. This morning I put the ff on top of the frozen hoping it would soften it a bit. Our problem is the water freezing. We don't have electricity in our coop. Trying not to have it out there. We just put a solar light but that's it. We brought the water in last night, & put it out this morning. Hopefully they will get enough before it freezes again.


the metal pan the we were using for our FF in the coop has become a problem(freezing). so it looks like we will have to go with plastic.

we cut back also on the FF 
we will still put some out each day but less that is for sure.


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## piglett (Jun 21, 2012)

minmin1258 said:


> The only place I have to keep the FF in winter is in my house. I wNt to start feeding it to my girls but am worried I won't b able to store it where it will properly ferment. I have a sensitive nose and I'm OCD about keeping my house clean and odor free. Would the smell be too strong t keep it inside?


we keep 2 FF buckets rite in the kitchen
the key is to use the lid but make sure you cut a went into the lid 1st
then i can't smell anything. with the lid off they smell sure can get to ya


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## minmin1258 (Nov 5, 2013)

Thanks for th info. I'm debating waiting until spring to start the ff now. I know will b better for my girls but I'm leary of th odors. I'm hoping I don't gag while feeding. Lol oh the sacrifices (chicken) Mommies make for our babies. Hehehe


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## piglett (Jun 21, 2012)

minmin1258 said:


> Thanks for th info. I'm debating waiting until spring to start the ff now. I know will b better for my girls but I'm leary of th odors. I'm hoping I don't gag while feeding. Lol oh the sacrifices (chicken) Mommies make for our babies. Hehehe


it can start smelling really bad if you put an unvented lid on the bucket.
yuck. even a coupld small holes drilled or cut in the top should work
don't make them too big though.


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## Chippets (Jun 8, 2013)

minmin1258 said:


> The only place I have to keep the FF in winter is in my house. I wNt to start feeding it to my girls but am worried I won't b able to store it where it will properly ferment. I have a sensitive nose and I'm OCD about keeping my house clean and odor free. Would the smell be too strong t keep it inside?


I am in Wyoming and I keep the FF bucket in the kitchen by the patio door. Don't smell a thing with the lid just placed on top so air can escape if needed. Boy howdy, it smells like a brewery when you take the lid off though! Ferments nicely and the girls get some room temperature food. However, they aren't eating as much as they used to. I like that their coop is stink free though!


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## minmin1258 (Nov 5, 2013)

Chippets said:


> I am in Wyoming and I keep the FF bucket in the kitchen by the patio door. Don't smell a thing with the lid just placed on top so air can escape if needed. Boy howdy, it smells like a brewery when you take the lid off though! Ferments nicely and the girls get some room temperature food. However, they aren't eating as much as they used to. I like that their coop is stink free though!


A stink free coop is reason in itself to feed that stuff! Lol ok you guys have me almost convinced now. My problem now is what can I use to get the fermentation started other than "mother" because where I live the nearest health food store that MIGHT carry it is over an hour away. Can u use yeast? Or is that a bad thing?


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

I orders my MACV off the internet as where I live in Colorado there is little in the means if grocery, let alone health food stores.


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## minmin1258 (Nov 5, 2013)

I have a couple of friends who live our there. Troy and Becca are managers of a ski resort, I thinks it's called Brettleberg or something like that. So point in telling you that is I am aware not every city in Colorado is near shopping areas. I don't have nor will I ever have a credit card so internet shopping is not an option. So being that's the case is there anything else I can use to start the fermentation process? Is yeast an option or would that be a bad thing?


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

I don't think yeast works. If I understand it just water will do, it simply take a bit longer to get going.


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## Chippets (Jun 8, 2013)

minmin1258 said:


> I have a couple of friends who live our there. Troy and Becca are managers of a ski resort, I thinks it's called Brettleberg or something like that. So point in telling you that is I am aware not every city in Colorado is near shopping areas. I don't have nor will I ever have a credit card so internet shopping is not an option. So being that's the case is there anything else I can use to start the fermentation process? Is yeast an option or would that be a bad thing?


From what I understand, you can just add water and keep it in a warmer place and the process will begin naturally. It just takes longer. Somewhere in the beginning of this thread Bee explained it all. I got my ACV with the mother at WalMart, and I've actually seen it in other supermarkets recently. I think the benefits are catching on and more people want it. So maybe the next time you make a trip to 'civilization' you can get you some. . In the meantime, read back in this thread and especially look for Bee's posts. She's a wealth of information.


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## minmin1258 (Nov 5, 2013)

Thank you for the info. What brand was your acv u picked up at Wally and what department was it in?


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## Chippets (Jun 8, 2013)

minmin1258 said:


> Thank you for the info. What brand was your acv u picked up at Wally and what department was it in?


There are two brands - Braggs and Heinz. Find it with all the other vinegar in the grocery section.


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## matt_kas (Mar 11, 2013)

Started making my first batch tonight, i used hot water and MAN DOES IT ALREADY SMELL STRONG!!!


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

I like it. Reminds me of brewing beer


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## minmin1258 (Nov 5, 2013)

Think I'm convinced to try it but going t use small batch method until I'm sure the girls like it and I can handle the smell.


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## back2simplelife (Jul 6, 2013)

when the smell gets too much for me, I just throw in some herbs like garlic and oregano.. lol.. smells like pizza dough my kids say


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## minmin1258 (Nov 5, 2013)

Too funny! I'd be craving pizza all the time. Don't know if that would be a good thing or not. Lol


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## kjohnstone (Mar 30, 2013)

powderhogg01 said:


> I orders my MACV off the internet as where I live in Colorado there is little in the means if grocery, let alone health food stores.


I too live in Colorado, and I won't shop at Wally World. My first bottle was Bragg's, and I bought it at a health food store, and my second bottle (raw, unfiltered and organic) I bought at City Market in with regular vinegar, at it has the brand name of "Solana Gold". Once you find it, you can make your own by buying apple cider and adding a slurp of the live ACV. Do not cap tightly (paper towel and rubber band?) because the fermenting apple cider can blow up as it makes a lot of gas. For yourself, splash a little into a glass of apple juice for a nice bit of probiotic! It has been helping me with some gut problems, and I already did lacto-bacillus supplements. It may very well be as good for us as for the chickens!


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## minmin1258 (Nov 5, 2013)

The nearest health/natural food store is MORE than an hour away so out of the question (and too expensive) for me to shop at. If I can't find it at Walmart I probably won't buy it.


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## piglett (Jun 21, 2012)

minmin1258 said:


> The nearest health/natural food store is MORE than an hour away so out of the question (and too expensive) for me to shop at. If I can't find it at Walmart I probably won't buy it.


that is where i found mine 
i would have never guessed to see it there, but there it was


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## RickaRae (Aug 12, 2013)

No ACV necessary.  Just add water & stir every day until it bubbles. Mine only took a few days, but it was warmer, so yours will probably take a little more time. With the lid just resting on top of a 5 gallon bucket, I can't smell it standing right next to it, but when you take the lid off; WHEW! My daughter used a handkerchief wrapped around her face for the first few weeks, then she says, "Mom, it's not too bad & the yard smells better." Sold and sold! Lol. Go for it! ;-)


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## minmin1258 (Nov 5, 2013)

Well I went to Wally today to pick up prescriptions. They said would take 45 minutes to gimp let's filling them. It's amazing how full a shopping cart can get in 45 minutes!!! Found ACV with Mother (Heinz brand) right where you said it would be. Now to find the buckets and drill holes in one of them. I'm getting there peeps be patient! Lol if I'm going t do this it's going t b -dun th rite wY. (ROFLMBO)


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## 5chicksowner (Mar 27, 2013)

minmin1258 said:


> The only place I have to keep the FF in winter is in my house. I wNt to start feeding it to my girls but am worried I won't b able to store it where it will properly ferment. I have a sensitive nose and I'm OCD about keeping my house clean and odor free. Would the smell be too strong t keep it inside?


I live in CA so the winter never gets colder then 55f :spoiled: but I just put a towel over the feed and it vents nicely and I don't smell a thing. Just DONT heat it up or your house will smell or beer for 3 weeks.


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## 5chicksowner (Mar 27, 2013)

*like

Sorry. autocorrect!


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## Regina L (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm in Northern Utah, and my FF started freezing already and I had also thought I would never have the FF inside my house!
Well, I ate my words 
I have the FF bin in the garage and when the temperature in in the teens, I bring it in to the laundry room. I'm also OCD about odors in the house, but it has been fine!


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## mselainey (Jun 9, 2013)

OK, I started feeding my girls the fermented a couple of months ago. I only have three, so the amount I culture isn't huge. I make it in a large plastic "jar" that my protein powder came in. When it gets low, I start another batch with a spoonful from the old batch, and some powder from my husband's probiotic tablets. Starts to smell yeasty/alcoholic in a few days. All of my chicken-growing friends say their birds have stopped laying during this cold snap, but my three are still producing. Not heavily, but we still have to check daily... 

California/Sacramento has had below freezing weather (water bowls frozen) so it's cold... I keep the f-feed in the kitchen, and it's never smelled bad or strong. Also, on of the neighborhood cats seems to like the f-feed too... what little the girls leave, if any.


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## powderhogg01 (Jun 4, 2013)

My chickens no longer lay. Even with FF. With only 6 hours of sun though.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

The 100 watt bulb under the mixing pot is working out well. It is keeping the mix warm and the chickens love the warm meal in the morning.


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## Regina L (Jul 6, 2013)

I have never found the need to add the ACV to my fermented feed! 
Walmart carries the Bragg and the Heinz brands, and I add it to their water as Bee (one of the chicken guru in this site had recommended)
I have become pretty creative in the FF "potion making", and I've had the same main mix for at least 2 or 3 months now!
I add the pellets, scratch grain, outdated dry cereals of all kinds, dry beans and legumes, nuts, dry fruits, granola, and whatever my "mood du jour" calls for! Yet the smell has been mildly yeasty, and the eggs are amazing! They have become so much heavier and healthy looking!
And there is zero smell inside their house, since I've started the FF and how I love that!


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## n8gnf (Oct 1, 2013)

My girls were doing great on FF, 4 days ago they just quit eating. 2 days ago I put out dry laying mesh and they gobbled it up. Has anybody else had this happen? Is it just that they wanted a switch? I know I like a change of diet all the time.


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

n8gnf said:


> My girls were doing great on FF, 4 days ago they just quit eating. 2 days ago I put out dry laying mesh and they gobbled it up. Has anybody else had this happen? Is it just that they wanted a switch? I know I like a change of diet all the time.


Maybe the protein is too high for them right now? Fermenting increases the protein level. This winter I cut back on protein and calcium and increased calories by adding more scratch grains to the mix. Right now I am mixing 1 part 20% grower and 1 part 8% scratch grain. That puts the mix at 14% protein before fermenting.


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## nickysanford (Feb 3, 2014)

What age should you give ff? Im asking because im going to hatch some little ones. My grown ones love it. Im just wondering when to give it to them.

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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

I start my chicks on FF their first meal. They love it.


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## nickysanford (Feb 3, 2014)

O ok. Thanks 

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## minmin1258 (Nov 5, 2013)

Ok probably a dumb question... I've been feeding ff for couple months now (the stuff stinks! Lol)! My girls love it! That arctic vortex hardly affected them at all because they were fat n sassy from great feed! I have Silkie eggs in the bator right now and want to feed ff to them. Can they eat the same ff as my hens or do I need to start chick feed ff? I've heard that the medicated chick feed won't ferment but the unmediated is available at my feed store also. So which do I give them chick ff or layer mash ff? 


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

You can use the layer. It has calcium in it for the hens but I don't think it will hurt the chicks. Make sure that there is plenty of grit available. The layer doesn't have grit like the chick starter does. If you only want to make one batch, I would pick the layer.

The medicated feed will ferment. Its just not necessary to use medicated if you are fermenting. 

I have a separate bucket for chick feed. Right now I am using grower because they didn't have unmedicated starter at the feed store when I was there last. I added some chick grit to it.


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

LW, we have non medicated chick starter in stock, but, it is soy free-non GMO, so maybe more that you want to spend....also, from what I understand, the calcium is not good for the younger ones, is bad for the liver or something, don't recall off top of the head, and too lazy rough now to look up. 


Jim


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## minmin1258 (Nov 5, 2013)

Jim said:


> LW, we have non medicated chick starter in stock, but, it is soy free-non GMO, so maybe more that you want to spend....also, from what I understand, the calcium is not good for the younger ones, is bad for the liver or something, don't recall off top of the head, and too lazy rough now to look up.
> 
> Jim


Thx Jim I appreciate your help. I was thinking that's what I'd heard about the layer feed in reguards to feeding it to chicks. : )

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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

That is one of the things that (not trying to hijack the thread) I like about the feed we get and sell from H and H, the layer crumble has the calcium added in as oyster shell, and (at least in theory) the Roos and younger chicks in mixed flocks, will eat around it! I am sure there are other feeds that are similar, but pellets, that doesn't work well in a mixed age flock. 


Jim


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

Here is a quick link that in skimming, follows what I have learned in the past. http://naturalchickenkeeping.blogspot.com/2013/02/calcium-mixed-flocks-vs-mixed-feeds.html

Jim


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

I have read that it can cause kidney damage or kidney stones in chicks but have also talked to a lot of people that do it and say they don't have problems. I have done it and haven't noticed any any ill affects. That being said, I don't do it now because I use two separate buckets for the FF but when I only used one, with the size of my flock and the amount of chicks being fed, I went with the layer because I needed so much more of it. 

LOL If my other chickens saw the chicks getting the good stuff, they would all want it and that's not happening. I think with the fermenting, it improves the quality of the feed enough to feed the cheaper brands. Though they are not non-GMO, I can't really afford to fight that fight right now. Wish I could.


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

I understand LW. I have to sell my eggs for $5 a dozen, just to break even on my feed feed bill. 

I too have talked to lots and lots of folks that have used layer, with no noted problems, we used to as well, but now don't have to worry about it..


Jim


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## minmin1258 (Nov 5, 2013)

Hey ya'll I have Silkie eggs in the bator, due t hatch the 24th... There's 18 in there, I only want 4-6. Plus have more coming on Wednesday. Anybody want chicks? 


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## Jim (Sep 26, 2012)

If my partner farm hadn't just ordered some from hatchery to fill orders, I could have taken some from ya...I personally am not a silky fan(yet), but I know in the Houston area they sell for 10-20 as younger chicks, you shouldn't have a problem selling them, I would go ahead and get your craigslist add ready!


Jim


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## DominiqueChickens (Feb 3, 2013)

*How Make Fermented Feed?*

What is the formula and method of producing fermented feeds? I have never tried it before...


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

Put your feed of choice in a bucket, say half full. Add water until it is a couple of inches above the feed. Mix it up well and cover with a loos fitting lid. (Fermenting expands the feed and creates gas and if you use a tight fitting lid it will build pressure and blow the lid off) Stir it several times a day and in a few days you will start to smell a sour smell and see bubbles on the top of the mix. That means it is fermenting. Adding a glug or two of unpasteurized apple cider vinegar will jump start the fermenting process. Just add back a little fresh feed every couple of days to keep the process going. 

All grains will ferment. Fermenting raises the protein level in the feed by as much as 12% so don't use high protein feeds like Game bird starter unless you cut it with cheaper grains with less protein.

Good luck!


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## DominiqueChickens (Feb 3, 2013)

*Great Idea*

Thank you. I love it.


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## Sundancers (Jun 20, 2012)

DominiqueChickens said:


> Thank you. I love it.


Best of luck!


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## youngfarmer (Sep 14, 2013)

You all mentioned heading out for three days or so... Just feed them the amount you normally would for three days right before you leave. 

My question is this - what do you do when you leave for a week? Say vacation. I only have a couple birds so they really don't eat much at all. Can I go back to pellets in their old feeder? I already only change their water every 7 or 8 days anyway so water won't be a problem. 

I ask this because we are new to this area and don't really have many friends yet (that we'd be willing to ask to help with the chickens) and all our family is back in Kentucky!

What are your thoughts? Dish out a weeks worth of FF or go to pellets and just make sure they have enough?


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## LittleWings (Jul 15, 2013)

I would switch back to pellets while you are gone. The FF will dry out and get hard. 
Good luck!


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