# How would you treat this one?



## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

3 year old peahen with ataxia and unable to roost. 

Previously de-wormed with topical ivermectin and Safeguard in the water (3cc per gallon for three days).

Extremely thin, off feed and not drinking. Weight of 2kg (normal is 3-4kg).

Yellowish mucusy poop.

Negative fecal float.

Edited to add: this was not my bird.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I may treat for cocci, e. Coli, botulism, maybe enteritis.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> I may treat for cocci, e. Coli, botulism, maybe enteritis.


IMO, all very good choices!


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

I'll have to go back and look through my notes, but I think this hen got so bad that she couldn't hold her head up.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

The ataxia could possibly be attributed to the ivermectin put in water which was supposed to be used topically. I dont know why someone would do that. Safeguard shouldnt be mixed in water neither. The fecal float may be negative in this instance, but I wouldve had it sent to a lab for accuracy as well as testing for cocci, ecoli, staph.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

dawg53 said:


> The ataxia could possibly be attributed to the ivermectin put in water which was supposed to be used topically. I dont know why someone would do that. Safeguard shouldnt be mixed in water neither. The fecal float may be negative in this instance, but I wouldve had it sent to a lab for accuracy as well as testing for cocci, ecoli, staph.


The ivermectin was used weeks before the illness and was applied topically. The 3cc's per gallon, you know what I think about that, lol.

The fecal checked for worm eggs and coccidia, but not bacteria.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Too much ivermectin put on topically can cause ataxia. But given the time frame that the ivermectin was applied to the peahen, I doubt ivermectin was the cause. Now I'm leaning towards botulism, not sure though.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

All these things went thru my mind.


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## MichaelA69 (Sep 5, 2015)

It sounds like late stages of enteritis which could be caused by numerous things. At that stage, culling is probable, but the hen would need to be separated to a comfortable,warm area, given fluids orally if possible. Safeguard was no good used in water. I'd worm with Albendazole (Valbazen or Galliverm Plus tabs). I would treat with what has worked for me a few times; Aviomed 4 in 1 tabs containing Ronidazole and Furaltadone for 5 days. It will act against most bacterial and even resistant forms of canker/blackhead. I would not feed any grit or oyster shell. Only moistened feed.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

This hen was worth about $250, so not one you'd want to cull until you tried a few treatments.

Since her fecal was negative for coccidia and worms eggs, she decided to treat her with just Baytril and metronidazole, and of course she began tubing fluids. Two days into treatment I convinced her to have another fecal done and a gram stain done, and this time the fecal showed a severe load of coccidia and capillary worms, so she added Safeguard and amprolium to the other meds. Gram stain didn't show much, but that could have been because she had already started the Baytril and metronidazole.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

casportpony said:


> This hen was worth about $250, so not one you'd want to cull until you tried a few treatments.
> 
> Since her fecal was negative for coccidia and worms eggs, she decided to treat her with just Baytril and metronidazole, and of course she began tubing fluids. Two days into treatment I convinced her to have another fecal done and a gram stain done, and this time the fecal showed a severe load of coccidia and capillary worms, so she added Safeguard and amprolium to the other meds. Gram stain didn't show much, but that could have been because she had already started the Baytril and metronidazole.


It figures. Back to basics; it's usually cocci or worms as the root cause. Good catch Kathy.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Helping this person taught me a lot, especially how negative fecals mean nothing when dealing with one so critically ill.

Here is a picture of her cecal poop, which actually looks fairly normal:








This one is clearly not normal:


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Yea, Dawg I know from experience about capillaria and cocci. I guess any worm can destroy the walls of intestine, and cocci and e. coli are just waiting for the chance. My little hen had paralysis, no depth perception, weight loss, etc. It looked a lot like Marek's, but with necropsy, turned out it was slow death.

Which brings up another point. I spent 7 years worming my chickens and one dies of capillaria worms. I didn't know that you have to treat twice in 10 days, I assumed once was enough every few months, but it was not.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Capillary worms are killers because they cant be seen in feces with the naked eye like most other types of worms. There's so many of them that by the time they are treated, it's too late. This is why I recommend a regular worming schedule. Again, warm moist/wet soil is worm soup. I've been worming once a month and will continue.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

seminolewind said:


> Yea, Dawg I know from experience about capillaria and cocci. I guess any worm can destroy the walls of intestine, and cocci and e. coli are just waiting for the chance. My little hen had paralysis, no depth perception, weight loss, etc. It looked a lot like Marek's, but with necropsy, turned out it was slow death.
> 
> Which brings up another point. I spent 7 years worming my chickens and one dies of capillaria worms. I didn't know that you have to treat twice in 10 days, I assumed once was enough every few months, but it was not.


I used to think the same thing... Imagine my surprise when I found out that with Safeguard they have to be treated five days in a row, and some vets will suggest doing that again in 10 day, but I haven seen any documentation to back that up. FWIW, the hen in this thread was treated five days, then her next fecal still showed capillary eggs, so she was told to repeat the five days.

One day, then 10 days later will not treat capillary worms unless you're using Valbazen.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

I was sort of wrong on the one day Safeguard/capillary worm... A *massive* one day dose will treat them in a large percentage of birds, but the dose is huge, it's 0.45ml per pound, which for an average sized RIR hen is about 3ml.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

That's an awful lot

Now I have one who's poop is similar to the green soupy stool. I kept wondering why my hen was picking at the roo s butt and found it red and bloody. He acts totally normal. I am wondering if I should treat for cocci and worms? Can I use ichthammol on it? Helping to mask the raw area.?


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## MichaelA69 (Sep 5, 2015)

I'm telling you...Lincomycin, Furaltadone, and Gentamicin are all very effective against bacterial enteritis/necrotic enteritis. Examine the wheat in feed. If it is green take it back and raise hell with the supplier. Enteritis is commonly referred to as "the greens, mud fever,new wheat poisoning, blue comb". Onset of heavy rains and drinking nasty water can cause it. Hunched up birds with green diarrhea and no appetite is the common sign. Gentamicin can be found labeled for swine and is generally .5 cc injected in the breast muscle for 3-5 days for a standard size bird (5-7 lbs.) Lincomycin is an injectable too, but can also be found as a water dispersable powder called Linxmed. QC supply carries all of them except Furaltadone, which I've only seen in pigeon catalogs like Foy's or Jedds.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

I think Furaltadone is one of the FDA banned drugs.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

Michael, one of the feed store I go to gave me two bags of their expired Linxmed for my powder experiments.


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## MichaelA69 (Sep 5, 2015)

casportpony said:


> I think Furaltadone is one of the FDA banned drugs.


The FDA bans lots of things that doesn't fit their agenda like the EPA.


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## MichaelA69 (Sep 5, 2015)

casportpony said:


> Michael, one of the feed store I go to gave me two bags of their expired Linxmed for my powder experiments.


Too bad it was expired. Did you take it back? Amikacin is by far the best streptomycin antibiotic. It is easier on a bird's system and is very effective, but hard to get unless you know a vet who will prescribe it.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

MichaelA69 said:


> Too bad it was expired. Did you take it back? Amikacin is by far the best streptomycin antibiotic. It is easier on a bird's system and is very effective, but hard to get unless you know a vet who will prescribe it.


They gave them to me free of charge so I could do my powder weighing experiments. So far, all powders weighed have weighed more than 2.7 grams per teaspoon and less than 3.3 grams per teaspoon.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

MichaelA69 said:


> The FDA bans lots of things that doesn't fit their agenda like the EPA.


YEA some government. Did you know they are still trying to get some states to agree to making antifreeze taste terrible.


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