# electronic Cigarettes



## seminole wind

We call them personal vaporizors since they have very little to do with cigarettes. No tobacco with it's 4,000 cancer causing ingredients, nothing burning.

They are basically nicotine from 0% to about *1.8*%, in a liquid of glycerin or Propylene Glycol, (not antifreeze but one of the benign ingredients that are used in everyday products), and flavoring usually from bakery type additives. Nicotine is non cancer causing, but should be used with caution if one can't drink caffeinated beverages.

There have not been enough studies done by the FDA to actually make statements related to long term health, so if you read that they are dangerous, it's not been proven. In fact, the FDA has told so many lies about them that they've actually had to retract some and have lost in court due to lack of evidence. The few people that have claimed PV's have blown up in their faces is most likely due to using them in a dangerous way and using products that are dangerously made without vent holes for the batteries. Add using batteries that use unprotected circuits. Most of the dealers have also put warnings and child proof caps, sealed in cellophane, and ingredient labels on the bottles without government demand.

Of course they gov insists on that but they are insisting on practices that have already been done. We've asked the FDA about protecting people from bad products but they are more hell bent on stating how dangerous they are when they have no research or proof.

Truth is that Big Tobacco is afraid of their profits from tobacco diminishing, and the government makes approximatly 40-50 billion off the taxes on tobacco.

PV's were invented by a Chinese doctor who watched his father die from lung cancer. In China they virtually want all their citizens smoking cigarettes and not PV's. Money I guess. They were the first ones to offer these products to the public outside of China. Bless them for inventing something that saves lives and is an enjoyable way to quit smoking.

I smoked for 35 years, and was introduced to them 8 years ago and never went back to smoking. Most of the people I know including on a forum have the same story.

I don't care what the FDA says about them without proof, and the rumors given to the public because cigarettes are 4,000 times more deadly that PV's. PV's are equal to nicotine patches, gum, lozenges, etc. Notice the FDA not mentioning that. And they never banned cigarettes which are deadly, so who believes them at all? In fact quitting cigarettes for PV's is a tremendous step toward health.

I have been involved with an association for 7 years that is purely for educating the public unbiased. Just the facts. Our research is 7 years greater than the FDA research. I once read an article in consumer reports that reeked of stating rumor as fact. I wrote them a letter only to be responded from them in a form letter-thanks but no thanks. Since then I cancelled my subscription to their "honest" research which doesn't exist.

Within the past months I notice there's a start of a turn around on the bad image that was created against PV's.

And those who have had a PV blow up in their face is less than 10 from their own fault but no one compares that to how many house fires and loss of life caused by cigarettes starting fires. A $50 investment in a battery device, an atomizer that carries the liquid and turns into steam, and the liquid, and from then on approximately $15 dollars a month for maintenance or less.

My reason for trading smoking in for PV's is that smoking was costing over $5/day or / $150 a month to less than $20-$30 a month for refills .

Sorry this is so long but the news makes me this angry. I've been with this since the beginning and my (ex) girlfriend was on the phone with me last year and was telling me I was making her real angry because I wasn't listening to her recite hearsay about PV's and telling me I didn't know what I was talking about. She actually said that if I tell my doctor that I don't smoke that I was actually lying to him. Being with PV's and their educational association for 8 years I can certainly tell where people get their so called knowledge from.


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## Nm156

Were you smoking the 420 special?


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## robin416

I did try the e cigs. I ended up being ultra sensitive to the propylene glycol and sensitive to the glycerin. They are not a good fit for everyone and I'm totally jealous of those that it is. Right now I'm wearing a nicotine patch and I had been taking Wellbutrin. I quit the Wellbutrin and the patch seems to be doing the trick this time for me.


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## CFAdmin

I smoke, snus and vape. I wish I could quit smokes but I'm just starting back on the vape pens so maybe it's in the cards this time. 

I smoke way to much and it's costing hundreds a month.


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## Nm156

I use the RYO system which comes out to $1 a pack.


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## robin416

Austin said:


> I smoke, snus and vape. I wish I could quit smokes but I'm just starting back on the vape pens so maybe it's in the cards this time.
> 
> I smoke way to much and it's costing hundreds a month.


That was the hubs, a minimum two packs a day.

I've wondered why the patch seems to be working for me this time around, it never has in the past. I'm also not counting my chickens, just because it seems to be working now doesn't mean it will stay that way.


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## chickenmommy

I have never smoked or vaped. But as someone on the outside looking in I prefer walking past someone vaping compared to someone who's smoking a cigarette. Some of the flavors they make for the e cigs smell amazing


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## nannypattyrn

I never did either one, but I grew up around it. My hubs smoked for around 40 years. It took 2 catastrophic events ( heart attack, by -pass surgery plus bowel surgery which required the ventilator life support. He finally was able to quit amost 6 y ears ago. He never thought he could do it. So, that said, I hope for those of you who do smoke, dip, and vape, all the success. I watched his struggle and my mom and pop in law fight and finally win. Keep on fighting!!!


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## seminole wind

Nm156 said:


> Were you smoking the 420 special?


I don't know, I was smoking whatever was cheap. Now I vape tobacco flavor with a hint of hazelnut.


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## seminole wind

robin416 said:


> I did try the e cigs. I ended up being ultra sensitive to the propylene glycol and sensitive to the glycerin. They are not a good fit for everyone and I'm totally jealous of those that it is. Right now I'm wearing a nicotine patch and I had been taking Wellbutrin. I quit the Wellbutrin and the patch seems to be doing the trick this time for me.


It's unfortunate that you are sensitive to the liquid. Some people have pushed thru the sensitivity by drinking a lot of water. Others have atomizers with adjustable air vents so you can dilute with just air. It does not work for everyone. There are also sensitivities to particular flavorings.

I hope the patch works for you. I think it's the hardest thing I've done voluntarily.


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## seminole wind

Austin said:


> I smoke, snus and vape. I wish I could quit smokes but I'm just starting back on the vape pens so maybe it's in the cards this time.
> 
> I smoke way to much and it's costing hundreds a month.


LOL I'm on a vape forum and there used to be a member like that. I think it cost him a lot of money.

I've got a 30 watt eleaf istick, and an aspire tank. Nice thing is it's so adjustable, which comes in handy for hard days-you just turn it up. 99% of mine was hand to mouth. I didn't look at it as quitting in the beginning. I was never quitting. I looked at it like saving money. But one day I ran out of cigarettes and asked myself why I'm smoking something that tastes so bad when I had vapes that tasted like caramel.

My first challenge was my first roo that must have had a brain injury, and walked circles backwards. I had to spoon feed him. That's when I met Robin who was being very helpful and supportive. The roo wasn't improving so I gave him a handful of valium and Xanax, and sat with him and waited for him to die. I was vaping 2 at one time. One wasn't enough. I didn't want to smoke. So I had 2 pv's going. Long story short , he didn't die at that point.


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## seminole wind

robin416 said:


> That was the hubs, a minimum two packs a day.
> 
> I've wondered why the patch seems to be working for me this time around, it never has in the past. I'm also not counting my chickens, just because it seems to be working now doesn't mean it will stay that way.


Sometimes things just work. Who knows. Just go for it.


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## seminole wind

Chickenmommy and Patty, I would really hope that any kid that wanted to smoke would vape instead. Cigarettes are bad news. 

I grew up around smokers, married one, etc. In fact most people who have never smoked don't realize how much of their life is built around having a smoke. With me it was even job selection, dates, friends. If a non smoker was picking me up, I was smoking to the very last second while waiting.


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## nannypattyrn

That's so true, Karen! I'm pretty sure that the E-cigs would be easier on rhe lungs.


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## CFAdmin

robin416 said:


> That was the hubs, a minimum two packs a day.
> 
> I've wondered why the patch seems to be working for me this time around, it never has in the past. I'm also not counting my chickens, just because it seems to be working now doesn't mean it will stay that way.


I'm trying to cut back to two packs a day. Between the wife and I we go through two cartons a a week. It's about $500 a month in smokes. It's just to much.


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## chickenqueen

I've been a heavy smoker and midnight toker for over 35 yrs and I feel it.Tried patches,gum and Chantix(which made me CRAZY!).Now I have trouble breathing which has started to impact fishing and hunting excursions-I walk up hills and have to stop to catch my breath.Very,very sad but am powerless to quit tobacco.As a nurse in long term care I watched many people die of respiratory issues and it was never pretty watching them gasp for each breath.And I went out to smoke...For me it's the act of smoking I can't seem to give up.I was a heavy drinker and quit cold turkey,was on Xanax for years and quit cold turkey but can't give up the cigarettes or Coke(soda).Maybe 1 of these days I can quit the tobacco,too.


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## seminole wind

Austin, I know how you feel. At the barn I was at the owner husband and psycho woman all lived in this tiny house and smoked like chimneys. I felt bad for the granddaughter, I don't know how she could breathe. The owner is my age (50's) and looks 85 years old. 

In the very beginning, I just used the PV during the day to cut down on how many expensive cigarettes I smoked. I had to have the cigarettes in the morning with coffee, dinner, and at bedtime. 

I'm not real sure but I think many people don't continue with PV's because they are not getting the good throat hit and smoke comparable to a cigarette. With my adjustable equipment , I can make it as strong as I want. Alot of people have good luck with the Ego One. It's easy and strong. 

In the past few years, my 2 sisters, daughter, son in law, and sister's husband all use PV's now. My son in law , who used to roll his eyes at me, is now a king expert, LOL. My father, who I've tried with several times just simply will not give up cigarettes. Well if he does, he knows where help is at. I do think half of it is the equipment and whether it's good enough to replace cigarettes.

chickenqueen, you are not alone. I smoked for 35 years, and have not smoked for 7 years. I NEver was going to give up smoking. I never even tried. It was just too enjoyable. I'm a nurse too. I smoked with plenty of nurses. At work it was better with the PV. No more outside breaks with coworkers timing me. No smelling like cigarettes. I could take a few puffs in the kitchen, storage room, or bathroom. 

It was mostly the act of smoking, like you said. The hand to mouth, etc. That's why I think patches and gum etc did not work for me. It was not a good enough replacement. 

Robin, I don't know if you remember a member named Wildsky. She posted one day that she was flying to Africa and was so glad she had this e-cigarette with her for this horrendously long flight. She told me about it and told me about the forum. Funny how resourceful chicken people can be.

Chickenqueen , I know how powerless I felt. I just enjoyed smoking too much. I am glad I found the right equipment that actually made vaping better than smoking, if you can imagine that!


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## robin416

Yeah, well you need to share. I noticed you mentioned the throat hit, that is something I don't get from mine and the biggest reason I don't use it. It just doesn't fill that need or desire or whatever you call it. 

My E cig does have the higher setting possibility but then we have the issue with the two juices and no throat hit. The sensitivity problem with the one is low enough that I could get away with it as long as I didn't try to use it the way we smoke cigarettes.


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## Nm156

My mom was a chain smoking drunk.She died at 66 one month before 67.Her brother died one month after turning 67 , never smoke or drank.


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## MikeA_15

Austin said:


> I'm trying to cut back to two packs a day. Between the wife and I we go through two cartons a a week. It's about $500 a month in smokes. It's just to much.


I went back and forth between smoking and dip/chewing tobacco for the last 32 years. I tried the Pure Smoke ecigs but it wasn't the same. In California they want to legalize pot for anyone claiming thy have depression, but tax the heck out of us when it comes to tobacco. You can't smoke in any establishments, within 20 feet of an operable window or door, and even that varies county to county.


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## CFAdmin

TO really vape you have to get a nice system or you're just going to waste your money. I found that out the hard way. Hundreds invested in Vuse products and now I use a Vision Spinner 2 and I get better hits satiating my need a little better.


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## seminole wind

I have an electronic istick box mod that goes up to 30 watts ,way too high. I use it at 15 watts. I recharge it every other day. I have a (k1?) Tank from Aspire, it's their older version and takes plain Aspire coils. The plain ones get harder to find. It's bulky but strong.

You would need
Eleaf istick box -20-30 watts
Easier to find- Aspire Nautilus tank (510 connection. It has it.)
Aspire Nautilus coils 1.2-2.8 Ohm. Do not go sub zero - too strong.

You can find all this on Ebay typing in the specific names.

E-juice- I think Vapor4life has the best juice. Best is 1.1 to 1.8 % nicotine. 
I like Triple Nickel, Oasis, Hilton, Wowboy, and get the Wow, not premium. Premium has more glycerine if you want. They also have a lot of other flavors.

Another set up I have is 

itaste vv or a Spinner vv, adjustable volts .
Kanger Protank with an EGO connection 2 ml or less.
Kanger coils at 1.2-2.8 Ohms 
Juice. 

I will look at kits later and post links so it all comes in a bundle except for juice. Kits are great.

Important. When you put new juice in a tank with a new coil DO NOT TURN ON FOR 15 minutes. Coil needs time to saturate or you burn the coil and it will taste bad.

I'll post links and pictures later.


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## robin416

OK, links works. I'm beyond tired right now and would probably make a mess of something.

I am down to one cig but when the craving hits, it hits hard. I'd much rather satisfy it with and e cig.


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## seminole wind

I have pictures. L toR 1. eleaf istick 30 watt (favorite). Aspire k1, below it Aspire BVC V2 Coil, Ego VV (variable volt), itazte VV.

2. Kanger coil for Kanger Pro tank (I used to have this)
3. same coil

4. iTazte VV Ego thread

5. Both are Ego threaded

6. These are 510 thread

7 Vapor4Life triple nickel wow juice 1.8% nicotine

I used an itazte vv with an Ego threaded Aspire BVC CE5 clearomizer for a long time. Then wanted a eleaf istick and got an Aspire tank, which are kind of hard to find now.
Most of this I found on Altsmoke but they're a bit more higher priced than Ebay. On ebay I do not order from China, and I buy only from people with a 99% or better score. I'll keep looking for kits.


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## seminole wind

NHaler.com I like this place and many people loved the owner. He died last year . He was a real standup guy. Good stuff and good prices.

Go to NHaler.com > Mid size big battery > Revolver iGO kit. Variable volt, easy, can't go wrong. Out of stock

Aspire BDC kits etc. >anything ViviNova tanks or cartomizers, except iGO. 
Aspire BDC Coils fit.

Watch the threading- EGO or 510 on both- the battery and tank or cartomizers. !!!!!!

Accessories > Replacement Batteries > EGO twist or EGO varivolt- watch the threads-they need to match with the tank. These are good and adjustable.

His E-Liquid is good. But I like Vapor4Life the best for liquid. If you go there, they email you great sales like every day. 25% off is good, and free shipping is good for a sale.

On Ebay you can type in iTazte variable volt battery and get a really nice battery with EGO threads. Or if you like a boxy battery, an Eleaf iStick 30W , and has 510 threads. Both are $23-$25 bucks. These are really good batteries and a good price for what you get. The box can get hotter than the EGO or iTazte, but they are really good throat hits and smoke

You can get any of the above stuff on Ebay. Type in the specific name. I don't buy from China or from anyone with a rating less than 99%. 

Make sure your battery is a variable volt or watt. Watch the threads. I don't buy clones either. I do like free shipping.

I don't buy the "batteries" that require loose batteries that you can buy. There are a lot of unsafe unprotected batteries out there. 

The basics is you need a tank or cartomizer to hold the liquid. You need a "battery". You need a coil that goes in the tank to make the liquid hot. And you need liquid. The initial investment will be about $50.00-$60.00 average, Eliquid average is about 30ml bottle per month $10-$12 average. My batteries have lasted over a year. My tanks last over a year. My coils last one week to several months each. So average monthly would be about $20.00 for liquid and coils.
You need a charger, but my phone, camera, and Galaxy 10 inch tablet all use the same plug. You can use the plug to charge while you are on the PC, or the adapter to the wall.


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## robin416

OK, so now I'm really confused on what is what and which might best fit my needs. I was reading last night that the throat hit can be gained by using higher nicotine levels and someone mentioned using menthol. Another said that it can be attained by doing a long draw as opposed to the short puffs we generally use smoking cigarettes.

I had no clue that there was different threading since mine has been built by others. And what do you mean by loose batteries?

What is it about the eleaf istick that makes it your favorite? 

Hubs is down having his plasmapheresis treatment so I have time to check out the websites.


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## robin416

So, in messing around with the one I have now I found that I do have Kanger components, the resistance is what is recommended and I knew my battery had two delivery strength levels. 

I'm using 100% vg right now but did order a 50/50 menthol mix last night. 

What I can tell you is that after looking at our bank account last night the not purchasing cigarettes for the past month has made a huge difference financially.


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## seminole wind

NHaler has a coupon right now for 25% off , code, july25

Vapor4life has a coupon now for 25% off, code, early4


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## seminole wind

Robin, throat hit is increased with propylene glycol and smoke increase with glycerin. I like a mix of 80/20, and nicotine of 11-18 mg or 1.1-1.8 % nicotine.
Volts/watts increase throat hit and smoke
Ohms, resistance, lower numbers in a coil, increase throat hit.

I have had the best luck with 
a 30 watt eleaf istick (variable)
an aspire vivi nova tank/ clearomizer/ cartomizer with 510 threads, holds 2.5-3 ml liquid that takes aspire BDC coils.
and aspire BDC coil with 1.2-1.8 Ohms or lower ,
This has been the best for me for 2 years now.

I like the eleaf istick 30 watt because it's so variable. You can increase power to increase throat hit and smoke. I am past needing my battery looking like a cigarette.

*
Volts is power from the battery, you want 5 volts or variable volt. 
Ohms is resistance to the volts in the coil, preferably 1.2-2.0 Ohms.
watts is volts plus ohms, you want about 15 watts, give or take, and variable volt/watts.
These have given me the best throat hit. There is better, but it's called sub Ohm and it can taste bunt easily and more dangerous.

In EGO threading and looks more like a cigarette , EGO variable volt, Spinner or itazte variable volt. EGO threads.
An atomizer-,BDC clearomizer or cartomizer, or tank that is EGO threaded and holds under 2 ml liquid (for looks). Prefer aspire brand. BDC
A coil ,BDC coil 1.8-2 ohms aspire coil that fits the tank , clearo or cart above like an aspire BDC.

These have been my favorites for 6 years, good quality and reliability and chargeable, and choice of throat hit. . The "loose batteries" are like rechargeable AAA batteries for mods that take them instead of being built in. I did not have good luck with these because the battery sizes sometimes didn't match and they are dangerous because some are unprotected. 

* New system, put the coil in and the liquid and wait 15-20 minutes before pressing the power button. Then take a few drags without the power button on. If you don't wait, you end up with a burnt coil that will always taste bad. 

You can get most of this stuff on ebay (no liquid) or NHaler as in post above this one, except the eleaf istic. Ebay has them for about $25.00 bucks free shipping.


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## seminole wind

robin416 said:


> So, in messing around with the one I have now I found that I do have Kanger components, the resistance is what is recommended and I knew my battery had two delivery strength levels.
> 
> I'm using 100% vg right now but did order a 50/50 menthol mix last night.
> 
> What I can tell you is that after looking at our bank account last night the not purchasing cigarettes for the past month has made a huge difference financially.


I gave you the prices above. My philosophy is that I like simple and affordable. Things have gotten really complicated with this sub 0 stuff. I'll stick to affordable quality , lower price but not cheap, simple, and variable .

I don't know how many volts your battery is or the Ohms on your Kanger coil. I switched to aspire coils because they taste better and eat less liquid. But all these stronger ones do go thru alot of liquid

If your set up is not satisfying you, it's easiest to go to a variable voltage battery (VV) and a tank/clearomizer and coil that offers you more flexibility and can go alot stronger with throat hit .

My ultimate favorite the last 2 years, simple, problem free, strong as throat hit as I want is

My eleaf istick 30 watt box. Variable, 510 connection. I doubt you can vape past 15 watts but have 30.
vivi nova aspire tank for BDC coils, and 510 connection 
and takes aspire BDC coils that have 1.2-1.8 Ohms resistance.
Liquid , vapor4life 11-18mg mg WOW liquid. They describe it as 1.1-1.8 % nicotine
That is my perfect set up with lots of flexibility, simple, cost for quality,

Prior to that, I had a itazte variable volt, EGO connection.
aspire BDC or BVC cartomizer with EGO connection
That takes 1.2-1.8 aspire coil, BDC or BVC. BDC and BVC means bottom coil.

Anything less quality did not last very long - spend more money. The top one will suit anyone's needs. The bottom one is excellent but offers good throat hit for most people.

Glycerin is not a great throat hit. 50/50 is good, 80 pg/20 glycerin is alot better.


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## robin416

I can't do the higher PG, I'm way sensitive to it and cough my head off using it. I picked up some 50/50 today, it seems OK. But I really think I need to get a new set up if I'm going to use this to substitute the cancer sticks. 

It appears that mine is all Kanger and is 1.8 volts on the atomizers. 

And I might have just fried my spare battery. Dang it. I'll mess with it later to see if I did.


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## robin416

So, I went to try to order the eleaf. It appears there is a supply problem and it's on backorder in several places. It looks like it might be the atomizer they're having issues with.


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## seminole wind

I just got a back up one on ebay. In blue.


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## robin416

That's not the entire kit, right? I found everything needed all in one kit in several places but they are all on backorder or out of stock. And I don't trust myself these days to do a piecemeal order and not forget something on that long list you gave me.

Strange thing is, they're available in Canada and other countries but not here. Makes me wonder what's going on that we don't have them.


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## robin416

OK, I might have an answer to what is going on with them. The BDC coils have been changed to BVC but there are issues with them. People are complaining about the burnt taste with the BVC. From one complaint I read it looks like there might have been a manufacturing screwup.

I also located the eleaf kit locally. You can have your blue, I think I'm going to go for red. Or maybe silver, or there is black. It will be one of those colors. Maybe even blue.


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## robin416

So, I got red. I have no real good reason other than if I set it down in the house it'll stand out like a sore thumb. I played with the volts/watts already. And the way they want me to use it just is not going to work for me but my way does.


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## seminole wind

You got a red one? How nice. Easy to find. The two shops near me are very knowledgeable. I haven't bought kits because I like to "shop" for what I want. I can't tell you how much money I've spent over the years on those things. In the last 7 years, it started with a few different choices of batteries that werent' strong enough and atomizers that you saturated the cotton with liquid. It was a PIA to get things working right.

But there were a bunch of guys at the time on that forum that started making PV's on their own that were 5 volts and that was better. Then with the atomizer, people tried tea bag paper, then finally we were all using that blue honeycomb material for fish filters because it held the liquid but let it go at the right rate. Oh geez the problems. Frequent filling. And the coils /atomizers were shorted out from the 5 volts and they cost $5 each at the time.
Making sure the material was just the right size, etc. All the liquid came from China. And no one ever had a problem with the Chinese liquid. There's all the stuff you can buy online from China with free shipping and a really low price. It just takes 3 weeks to get. 

Then Vapor4Life and other places popped up with different atomizers that had the heating coil in the middle of rolled paper and that was better but too hard to find the one that worked for me. Some people swear by the kits from V4L but I found one to be too airy. I'm sure they have great kits but I can't recommend anything that I haven't tried.

Then things progressed to little tanks that had cotton strands that had the coil on top. They were great but needed some altering and a PIA to fill. Then they made tanks, clearomizers, cartomizers with bottom coils, like BDC (bottom dual coil) and BVC (bottom vertical coil). Can't tell the difference. Then things just started improving so fast, one couldn't keep up. 

Then came adjustable everything. Yeah! And adjustable volts or watts, tanks that held more liquid. It's become so uncomplicated. 

With the eleaf, you need 510 connections for the tank. The tank needs a good coil matching what the tank needs.

Let me know if you have a problem. The forum is e-cigarette-forum.com. An immense amount of information and questions get answered pretty quickly. Many nice people on there. I always go there to see what's new . I go there to rant about the FDA. 

I have dropped my current tank so many times that the glass came loose. So I cleaned the edge of the glass and put crazy glue on the end and stuck it back in. In the meantime, I glued my fingers together . They would not come apart. I ended up taking a knife and sort of sawing in between and got them unstuck.

What kind of atomizer are you using on top of your battery?


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## robin416

I'm having a good laugh at your expense, yet again. Glued your fingers together? Used a knife to free them? I need the emote of the guy rolling on the floor, pounding the floor laughing his azz off!

I started with Blu several years ago. Obviously it wasn't a good fit because it didn't last long. Then I got what is a stick battery setup but it didn't deliver enough throat hit. That's also when I found out that PG is not my friend. Even the 50/50 can get me hacking if I do one too many draws on it.

I think it's all Kanger. Don't ask me too detailed questions because I'd have to make things up. So far, so good. I did boost the watts to 12 and the volt to 4.7. From what I saw taking the Kanger much higher on the volts is asking for a burnt taste. I still don't know what the volts are supposed to do. What happens if I send that sucker all the way up to 30?

And they seemed to think it was super important to me that I use the lowest setting to save the coil. Uh no, what's important to me is getting the delivery that satisfies that need so I don't go back to the cancer sticks.


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## seminole wind

On this eleaf, just set the watts. The volts and ohms set themselves. Simply understood by me, volts is the energy, ohms is the resistance , and watts is what you actually get. I think it became watts as the "official" measurements because volts are meaningless against what the ohms are. Watts is what the output is. I usually end up around 15 watts. 

The burnt taste thing. This is why I don't buy kits. I buy what's good and won't get a burnt taste. It would help if I knew what you were using. I have stuck to a tank (Davide) or vivi nova that takes an aspire BVD or BDC aspire coil. I let the new coil soak for 20 minutes before I even press the button. If you burn your coil it will taste bad forever. Then, take small inhales in the beginning, and slowly increase. It's like priming. Vaping can be a bit different where sometimes your inhale has to be slower and longer.

A Kanger Protank with a 510 connection, and kanger coils is another one that worked great for me till I broke it. It's actually cheaper. If you get a Kanger Protank, I have like 8 spare coils for it that I don't need anymore and can send you. Don't worry, we'll get you going good. Like Austin said, it's a matter of getting the right equipment. Play with the watts, it will adjust the rest itself.

At 30 watts you will burn your brain, LOL. What tank/atomizer are you using ? I toyed with 3 other tanks and could not get away from a burnt taste. One I think the tank was too small and something to do with the pressure inside the tank, and the last one was a cheaper one and I haven't figured it out yet.


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## seminole wind

http://www.evcigarettes.com/safe-vaping-power-voltage-resistance-ohm-chart/

This will either help you are confuse you. But my # is around 13-15 watts.


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## robin416

I'm thinking about leaving the computer behind this AM so I'll get this answered now. 

It's all Kanger, Kanger tank, Kanger coil, everything but the battery is Kanger. 

The thing is, how did you know what was good where the components are concerned? Trial and error? Heck, I didn't even know they could be bought in pieces until you started this thread. 

I did learn yesterday that if for whatever reason I have to use the smaller pro tank that I have to change the coil to a single. And as I was typing that I was thinking, "but how is that supposed to fit?" Then I remembered there is an adapter to put on the battery for the single coil.


----------



## seminole wind

Alot of it was trial and error. The other part was learning on the forum. Things have gotten a bit more confusing to me with all this sub zero systems. I hate aggravation. Alot of equipment that I don't have anymore was just not worth the aggravation. Like burnt tasting, or gurgles.

I think you're right about those aspire BVC coils. I've had leaky problems and staying screwed in problems. 

I don't think I understand what you need an adapter for. Can you explain that better?


----------



## robin416

Wow you mean I might know something about these things you don't? I won't get ahead of myself though until I try to explain what they told me.

If I ever break my large tank, I can use the extra small tank that I have until I pick up a new one. What they told me is that the small tank uses a single coil, I'll have to look when I get home, but there might be quite a bit of size difference between the single and double coils. 

What I stumbled across somewhere when I was looking for the components you use were complaints about the BVC coils. They all complained about a burnt taste with the new coil. One guy had ordered several coils. When he ran in to the same thing he switched out the coil, some how he did a visual comparison and noticed that one of the new coils had four holes, that one worked fine. The other new coil only had two and that was the one that tasted burnt. How true? I'm so new to the ins and outs I have no clue.

And you're right, the watts are determined by the volt setting or vice versa. I'm going to try something after a nap. The battery can be locked, I want to see if I can run the one up and keep it locked in place. That makes no sense but I'm so tired right now I know what I'm thinking, I just can't put it in to words.


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## seminole wind

I can't understand the need for an adapter unless the connections are different like an EGO connection or a 510 connection. I don't understand needing an adapter for dual or single coils. The ones that fit on an eleaf should be a 510 connection. Maybe your smaller tank is an EGO connection.

But your 2 hole theory is something I didn't think about and makes percect sense. I should check mine. 4 holes would be much better. And make a very big difference . Try taking a pin and moving the stuffing around.


----------



## seminole wind

I'm having the opposite problem right now with those BVD coils, gurgling and leaking.


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## robin416

Not my theory but one another BVD user noticed when he had issues with the new design.

I just remembered to check the coils. Since I have both sizes here it's easy to compare them. The threaded end on the single coil is smaller, hence the adapter, than the double. And there is a significant weight difference between the two.


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## seminole wind

Well you taught me something new. I bought a mini tank about 6 months ago and thought I bought the wrong thing because it had an ego connector. Little did I know that I had an adapter in the box and never even looked. I do so I put the 510 adapter on the eleaf and I got a brand new mini! Duh!

Unfortunately I spilled German wine on my keyboard on my tablet. Good thing the keyboard is cheap.


----------



## robin416

I dumped Kaluha all over a dial phone once. Let's just say it had some sticky issues from then on.

Ok, so I'm not the only one that hangs on to parts and pieces that mean nothing to me after a while. Glad I could help. At least you can use the other tank now.


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## seminole wind

Which was just in time because my usual tank got dropped and broken. At least I have this newer one to use. I am also understanding you about the single coil and dual coil. I took out my kanger coils and I have 9 vertical coils so I ordered a Protank 2 mini. If you use the dual coil ones I have 3 I can mail you. They are from over a year ago so they should be good.


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## robin416

I'd say yes, give me, give me, give me. But the coils are one of those things to hold on to. What happens if you can't get your usual coils? And from what I saw it might be an issue. 

I'm so afraid of breaking my tank that I go over the top trying to protect it. Bet I break it any way over some dumb move.


----------



## CFAdmin

Well my Vision Spinner 2 broke over the weekend. 

Anyone have suggestions for a new vape system?


----------



## robin416

So far I'm liking the system Karen recommended. They told me the battery would last a full day. I guess that's when you're pulling on it non stop because mine hasn't even reached half yet and I've had it since Saturday and this is now Tuesday. Mine is the Eleaf with all Kanger components. Tank, coil and whatever else isn't part of the battery.

The plus is that I got it locally so if something happens I can replace anything that breaks easily.

I'm still struggling with the PG fluid though, even with a 50/50 PG/VG mix. It looks like I'm going to have to go full VG in the future once I've emptied this tank.


----------



## seminole wind

Austin said:


> Well my Vision Spinner 2 broke over the weekend.
> 
> Anyone have suggestions for a new vape system?


Austin, I am beyond the "cigarette" look, and like a lot of power even if I don't use it, reliable,simple.

so me and Robin got boxier looking Eleaf istick 30 watts. These have a 510 connection. I use a plain aspire clearomizer BDC, aspire coils around 1.8 or so Ohms and BDC Or Kangertech Protank 2 or Protank 2 mini with single kanger coils. With a 510 connection for the istick. The other type of connection is an EGO connection and it will only fit with that.

you say you have a spinner. That's up to 5 volts. Which may be enough with a coil that is 1.2 ohms. If it's not you need what Robin and I have. I'm at about 5v/15 watts with mine and it's more than enough.

Volts are the older way of labeling power, and ohms are resistance in the coil. The watts are the product you get. Way back when ,you had literally no choices, so everything was measured in volts. The early ones were 3.7 volts. That's it. Until some genius members created 5 volt gadgets. They blew those little coils, and you always had to stop and drip on the filler. Next thing I know they've got these whole 'nother coil systems that are far superior.
I had actually built my own 5 volt gadget out of a battery box. But it needed 2 batteries but that gave you 7.4 volts, too high for the coil so we had to solder in resistors that cut down the volts. God those guys were geniuses.

EGO/Joe tech has some nice systems but it's been a while since I bought one. The last one I bough was an Egrip. Nice boxy mod with the coil and tank built inside. So you get it, fill it, wait 20 minutes and it's good to go. Lot's of power. But for some reason I changed the old coil for a new one and can't get it working and don't have another coil for it. But it's pretty simple to buy something that has it all together right up front.


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## robin416

One thing I noticed with the Eleaf is that it's easier to draw on. I thought I was imagining things so I hit the Kanger stick I had just to compare. That all by itself make the Eleaf more pleasant to use and more realistic. 

I turned my setting down to 4.2 to see if the tightness in my chest is at least reduced. It doesn't seem to make any difference though. At least I can turn it up and get a larger hit if I go full VG.

BTW, Karen, what made you post about this? The timing for me couldn't have been more perfect.

Oh, and I've developed a sensitivity to the nicotine patches. It's either the adhesive or the nicotine.


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## seminole wind

I am a diehard advocate for honesty for the ecig or personal vaporizer. It makes me want to scream when I hear stupidity or lies about these things. All the "facts" without the research. Even Consumer reports with their "researched" article. I've been with this so long I could certainly tell that their " facts" was nothing but hearsay. So I must have come across another screwy article labeled as fact or someone taking credit for something they didn't discover.

Truth is cigarettes have 4,000 known carcinogens in them but still legal. PV's have no carcinogens just pg, glycerin, flavoring, and varying amounts of nicotine. Nicotine is a legal over the counter stimulant and there's never been extensive research on it outside of being combined with tobacco.

If you misuse the product, it releases toxic chemicals. If you buy cheap no name hardware, unprotected batteries, and without safety checks built in, it can explode. Protected batteries have a circuit That shuts them down. The hardware should have small holes at the opposite end or a little resistor that shuts everything down. Compare that to how many cigarettes have burned down houses.

Society , money, and politics are a whole other story.


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## seminole wind

robin416 said:


> One thing I noticed with the Eleaf is that it's easier to draw on. I thought I was imagining things so I hit the Kanger stick I had just to compare. That all by itself make the Eleaf more pleasant to use and more realistic.
> 
> I turned my setting down to 4.2 to see if the tightness in my chest is at least reduced. It doesn't seem to make any difference though. At least I can turn it up and get a larger hit if I go full VG.
> 
> BTW, Karen, what made you post about this? The timing for me couldn't have been more perfect.
> 
> Oh, and I've developed a sensitivity to the nicotine patches. It's either the adhesive or the nicotine.


Drink lots of water- it may help.


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## CFAdmin

Thanks for the info! I'm headed to a couple of vape shops when I get off to see what they offer.


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## robin416

Turns out there are quite a few that are sensitive to the PG. There are some that have issues with the flavoring. I got no flavor once and found that wasn't the problem.


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## CFAdmin

What are PG's?


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## robin416

Polyethylene glycol, the stuff that vaporizes and deliver the nicotine. And VG is vegetable glycerine. VG goes through coils faster and doesn't quite make the vapor that PG does.


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## CFAdmin

Well I got my vape pen working, then dropped it breaking it into a couple of pieces. Now I have no choice but to buy a new one. That sucks.


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## seminole wind

Yea my last 2 clearomizer we dropped a several times then broke. If you go to a shop, don't do sub ohm coils, get something variable like more than 5 volts/15 watts. I've also never had much luck with air vents. Do not buy clones. Propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin are PF/VG. A good place to start is 50/50. But I like 80%pg and 20%glycerin. 11% nicotine is good but I like 18%.

Why would buying a new one suck? It's fun and shopping and you can a better one.


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## robin416

I have to agree with Karen, they've made great advancements in the delivery systems. 

The air vent is one of the things I didn't like about my stick battery. I noticed that this one has air vents you can't possibly occlude when using it. 

And Austin, it was meant to be that you were going to replace your old unit no matter what.


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## seminole wind

Boy never too careful. I bought a mini Protank 2 to use up my kanger coils. The ad said "510 drip tip and base". Well the base is not 510. So I have the aggravation of sending it back.


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## CFAdmin

I just hate spending money is all. I'mm cheap.


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## seminole wind

Then it's extra important to get the right equipment up front vs. Spending thousands over 7 years.

Looks like I'm having a problem with someone on ebay. His ad said "510 drip tip and base". So he says it's my fault that I misread his ad and got an EGO thread instead. Sure I'm mad. Over a $10 item I don't need.

Austin, the spinner from what I remember is a 5 volt maximum. You need a 5 volt minimum. (Or 15 watts). So your spinner did you a favor. There is so much new stuff out there it becomes harder to find the older stuff. I have not gotten into any tanks/clearomizers that are sub zero (coils that are less than 1.2 ohms.) Or have adjustable air vents. I have stuck to two main brands. Kangertech and aspire, which make tanks/clearomizers and coils. They usually come with one coil. Just be sure your threads match 510 or EGO.

I am going to write that dealer a disappointed gram. He's earned it.

I'm a member of e-cigarette-forum.com for 7 years, and always had my stupid questions answered. If you scroll to the bottom there's a list of suppliers that I feel most of them are good. The link is to their forum, click on that and click on "website" up at the top.


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## robin416

Yeah, well we need to teach you how to make a clickable link.


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## robin416

Phew, I was afraid I messed up your post. But I fixed the link so it's clickable.


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## seminole wind

It says page not found. But if you google e-cigarette-forum, it will get you there.


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## robin416

I see what's wrong with it, it says something about chicken forum in the link.

See the globe dealy? Click on that and type the link name. That way it'll be clickable for everyone.


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## seminole wind

http://e-cigarette-forum.com

Hope this works!


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## robin416

Look at this: http://www.e-liquidzine.com/nicotine-overdose-allergy/

I was beginning to wonder if 18% was too much for me. This kind of supports that thought. What I get is the tightness in the chest and I don't even use the thing like most people smoke cigarettes. The battery lasted an entire week before I had to charge it.


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## seminole wind

I have no idea. Did you get pure glycerine yet.? You can always mix different strengths. I used to wake up with a tight chest, muscle aches, until I got used to it. And drank more water.


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## robin416

I'm fine if I quit after a couple of pulls. Much more than that and my chest tightens. I actually had it happen with a cigarette this evening, it was a test I don't need to repeat. 

I am using 100% VG now. I need to try to lower the nicotine level and see if that fixes the issue. 

I'm actually getting so that I'm not missing cigarettes but I do find without a low nicotine patch I get where I want SOMETHING!! You know, when you'd hurt someone to get it? Not as bad as the beginning but that craving is still there. But I've also developed a sensitivity to the adhesive on the patch so I guess I'll have to go get the lozenges they have now.


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## seminole wind

The battle with the urge gets continuously easier to ignore . I make sure I have mine with me all the time even if I don't use it. I think that's one of those anxious thoughts left over from cigarettes. I have this counter on my signature at the other forum and it says I'm up to 51000 cigarettes i didn't smoke in 2550 days and saved $12,750.00. 

All I can say is ecigs certainly do taste better! One thing that helped me alot was as I learned more and more how Big Tobacco, the FDA, and even society wants you to continue smoking, and they will say anything that sounds like they will all help you to stop smoking, but money talks. So far they could all shove things at you that don't work. But when a group of heavy smokers found their genius was in perfecting a device that really works, Big Tobacco, Fda, and society lie and fight tooth and nail for us to not use it. And society too. It irritates society that it took smokers to invent something.
and if smokers invented it, it must be a scam or illegal or toxic. 

Think about it. You know pecking order? And how it always needs those on the lower end? Society loves smokers. They are lying, untrustworthy, smelly, weak people that society can run down for hours and make sure they stay at the bottom rung of the order. If we are not there anymore, the ones at the top get closer to the bottom. And subconsciously it terrifies them. 

And vapers are afraid of breaking a law? With what, a battery, glycerin, nicotine, and some wire that heats up and produces steam, where's the illegal item? 

The government is trying to get the liquid catagorized as a medical substance, thereby under laws involving meds. But the senate (?) Lost that case recently because nicotine is under the tobacco category. 

I told my gf once that I had my physical and she asked if I told the doc I was a smoker and I said no I'm not and she told me I was lying to my doctor.
I told her that's not true, and she said I was making her mad by thinking I don't smoke because vaping has nicotine. I said what if I don't have nicotine in mine and she couldn't answer. (I ended that friendship months later). 

Nicotine had never really been researched thoroughly in the past. Known as a stimulant like coffee. And as far as research on the tobacco for smoking, there are 400 or more carcinogins (sp) in tobacco and nicotine is not one. So there were 400+ more deadly ingredients to research first.

I'll stick with my group of vapers who all have stories about how vaping took them off cigarettes, like 1,2,or3 packs a day, and 10-50 years of smoking. I'm very proud to be one of those people. It's so hard for most to quit. And I have empathy for smokers. I just see how everyone plays the game to keep smokers smoking.


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## seminole wind

robin416 said:


> I'm fine if I quit after a couple of pulls. Much more than that and my chest tightens. I actually had it happen with a cigarette this evening, it was a test I don't need to repeat.
> 
> I am using 100% VG now. I need to try to lower the nicotine level and see if that fixes the issue.
> 
> I'm actually getting so that I'm not missing cigarettes but I do find without a low nicotine patch I get where I want SOMETHING!! You know, when you'd hurt someone to get it? Not as bad as the beginning but that craving is still there. But I've also developed a sensitivity to the adhesive on the patch so I guess I'll have to go get the lozenges they have now.


Some people use chewing tobacco. 
Why lower the nicotine now? You should use as much as you need to not get those awful urges.

I'm sure you're doing what you can and it will work. 
They are coming out with no pg no glycerin liquid, but I don't know anything about it yet. Drink lots of water or liquids. Water to me means tea, diet coke, or Crystal lite. Now it's been those flavored vitamin waters.


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## robin416

I hate artificial sweeteners and that's what is in that water. Why can't they add a dash of real sugar and say it's good? That drives me nuts too.

I'm looking at the lower nicotine to help with the very uncomfortable chest tightness. That alone could keep from continuing on. The cough from the PG had me off vaping in the early going until I started investigating and found there are people sensitive to it and ordered the VG. I was good with that until this other started and it might be as simple as lowering the nicotine amount.


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## seminole wind

If the nicotine bothers you , wouldn't it bother you smoking?


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## robin416

It did. I tried a cig last night and the same thing happened.


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## seminole wind

So I guess you,ve come closer to what's going on.


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## robin416

Yep, I'm using a lower nicotine liquid now and not getting zapped like I was with the higher.


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## CFAdmin

I picked up an eleaf 2 and 5 19 mg flavors. I've had a couple of smokes today but that's nothing compared to what I normally have. I think this is going to work in quitting.


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## robin416

Austin, I can't tell you how happy I am with mine. I've tried so many times now and the other two e-cigs I had/have didn't come close to helping me quit. This Eleaf seems to be doing the trick. The only time I really want a cig is with coffee now. It used to be every excuse I could come up with to light up. Now I go for hours without even thinking about when I can light up another.


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## nannypattyrn

That's awesome you two! Victory on the way!!


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## seminole wind

That is awesome! I do think success has alot to do with the right equipment. I love variable.


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## CFAdmin

robin416 said:


> Austin, I can't tell you how happy I am with mine. I've tried so many times now and the other two e-cigs I had/have didn't come close to helping me quit. This Eleaf seems to be doing the trick. The only time I really want a cig is with coffee now. It used to be every excuse I could come up with to light up. Now I go for hours without even thinking about when I can light up another.


Th eleaf seems to draw like a smoke more than other units I've tried so I was happy with the purchase. I'm not going to be a cloud chaser so I needed something that puffed like it was a smoke and this one is it.

'Thanks for the support guys. My quit date is Friday but I'm already cutting back a ton.


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## seminole wind

I never thought of quitting at the time, just saving money. I ran out of cigarettes and didn't go and get more because they just didn't taste very good anymore compared to vaping. it's been so long I feel like I would get sick if I had a smoke. The worst is watching Joe Kenda Homicide detective on ID. He just puffs away. Then I think of how bad those rooms must smell. but where I used to keep my horse, 3 adult chain smokers living in a small house never made me want one. Believe it or not, most vapers say they would go back to smoking if it weren't for vapes. 

I still like vapor4life for liquid. The wow line, not the premium line. I have been every where, and been with this place for 4 years. I have Oasis right now which is a tobacco. I also have Hilton, tobacco, and my years long favorite Triple Nickel, which is a nutty tobacco. Not into fruity flavors my my daughter and sister love cinnamon. If you sign up with vapor4life they always have sales 25-30% . off.

What are you two using on top of your eleaf?


----------



## robin416

With Bob's health issues that was the kick in the pants I needed. Karen, you talking about it on the forum made it possible. Like Austin said, these do draw more like a cigarette. You don't have to work at getting that throat hit. I didn't even know what that was until I started doing some searches. Since full PG is off the table for me I wasn't sure it would ever do it for me. Well, it does even without the full PG.

And I am learning the vape liquid is just as important as the delivery system. Right now mine is a menthol from the Vape Shop. It's crystal clear, has a decent menthol taste and gives a good throat hit. I'll try the WOW when I get close to needing a refill.


----------



## seminole wind

I'm just glad that it works for you. I'm not a cloud chaser either. 

If either of you want to really indulge, there's a supplier that's called Halo and they have 2 awesome liquids, one called Prime 15, and the other called Tribeca. A bit pricey, but good. I've never had their menthol.

I found that there was alot of pride I felt when I became a full time vaper. Robin, having a good shop nearby is great. Many of them are very knowledgeable.


----------



## robin416

The local people are called Panama Vapors. They have two locations, one in Panama, FL the other here. They make their own liquid with US sourced ingredients. But I won't say that they have the best out there since I found this one from the Vape Shop. 

What I need to do is make a list of these places you're mentioning, Karen, so I can give each a try.


----------



## CFAdmin

I'm trying a number of fruity flavors as it's all the vape shop sold but I'm going to start looking for other as I'm already growing tired of them. One is pineapple with a bunch of other flavors and it's a bit much. Not something I want to puff on all day.


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## robin416

I might one day move to different flavors but for now I'll stick with what I've always used, menthol flavoring.


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## seminole wind

vaper4life is the only one I use now. occassionally I treat myself to Halo.
I usually end up buying other stuff at MVS (my vapor store) in New York and or Nhaler also in in new york. They seem to have a more varied inventory, mail quick , and have the latest stuff out. Prices are average. Hundreds have popped up since in the last few years but I haven't had reason to go try them out. Ebay is off my list now.


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## CFAdmin

I have a ton of vape shops here in town so I'm just going to go hit up the others when I start running out of juice.


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## robin416

I've got a few but I only know that the one is made with US sourced ingredients. I will not do Chinese.


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## seminole wind

Most places do usa made. I do trust the Chinese on this tho. That's all we had way back when. They invented all this stuff.


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## CFAdmin

Really? So there's a vape culture in China?


----------



## hildar

The best flavor I have found so far is the vanilla. However if you can get vanilla cupcake that taste like a real cupcake. I loved it. I bought mine on sale where the date had gone by, went back and bought 5 more. At $3.99 per bottle I had it made. However I had to buy a new tank for it, the little tanks do not work good with the thicker liquids.


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## robin416

The Chinese companies are in trouble all of the time about poisoning the Chinese population. They do cost cutting on everything and it usually means people using their products suffer for it. Us included. Our dogs and cats. Remember melamine?


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## seminole wind

I remember melamine. But back then it's all we had until some of the genius members started making and selling their own. 

I got real tired of fruity flavors. I stick to tobacco flavors, mostly 555 (triple nickel). 

Hildar, Have you tried RY4? It's a vanilla/caramel tobacco flavor. Yummy. Welcome to the vape den!

Robin they are illegal in China because China want everyone to smoke cigarettes. I don't know why. I'm not joking.


----------



## hildar

seminolewind said:


> I remember melamine. But back then it's all we had until some of the genius members started making and selling their own.
> 
> I got real tired of fruity flavors. I stick to tobacco flavors, mostly 555 (triple nickel).
> 
> Hildar, Have you tried RY4? It's a vanilla/caramel tobacco flavor. Yummy. Welcome to the vape den!
> 
> Robin they are illegal in China because China want everyone to smoke cigarettes. I don't know why. I'm not joking.


I will ask heather if she can get that one in. She is great with the flavors. However I have gotten a few of the vanilla that were from a different company and it tasted like it had cinnamon in it. I don't like the flavor of cinnamon, unless if it's in my apple pie lol.

I got one not to long ago that is tobacco and chocolate flavor together. However to me it taste just like a tootsie roll. It is called Chocolate bliss. I also tried chocolate bar, and to me it was just nasty.

The only fruit flavors that I do are strawberry and I tried Blueberry once. I may do Blue berry again some day if I want to splurge and spend a few extra dollars for the better brand.


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## seminole wind

I have tried alot of brands. Some were too weak and some just nasty. So I just stick to certain suppliers. I don't care for fruit. I like something that I will use long term and not tire of. I know years back I had like 20 bottles of different flavors.

Sometimes it helps that many on line places offer a sample pack.


----------



## hildar

seminolewind said:


> I have tried alot of brands. Some were too weak and some just nasty. So I just stick to certain suppliers. I don't care for fruit. I like something that I will use long term and not tire of. I know years back I had like 20 bottles of different flavors.
> 
> Sometimes it helps that many on line places offer a sample pack.


Yeah my favorite tobacco flavor is from Tsunami, I have tried a few others, and one that I tried tasted fruity. I don't want fruity tasting tobacco. A few years back I bought a bottle from a site online. It lasted me 2 months however it was a very thick liquid and the taste wasn't that good. It came in a huge black bottle with a long eye dropper. Personally I always said never again would I buy it. It was far cheaper though and the cheaper price was what I went with at that time.


----------



## seminole wind

There is so much political crap everywhere. The whole thing makes me crazy.

Between the FDA, Big Tobacco, and the Vaping community, in one sentence the FDA allowed Big Tobacco to write up guidelines for submitting new Tobacco related guidelines, inventions/items. So of course Big Tobacco wrote up guidelines in a way that will prevent legal use and sale of electronic "cigarette" gadgets.

Short version is that any new Tobacco related items submitted require approx. 10 years of expensive research . There is a grandfather clause that states any tobacco related item is exempt from this prior to 2007. So, 2007 is about when e-cigs came on the market here. Most sellers or manufacturers of e-cig hardware and liquid do not have the research and certainly can not afford the expensive testing. So as of August 8 (?) sellers can sell their inventory, but cannot sell any more. 

It has taken Big Tobacco 8-9 years to set things up where they will not have any competition to their Tobacco industry. It was hard for Big Tobacco and the FDA to come up with a loophole that would not affect the sale of cigarettes. But they think they did.

First they had to include e-cigarettes as "Tobacco related". There is not really anything that relates e-cigs to Tobacco. The liquid and hardware have nothing to do with tobacco. Nicotine is found in many plants, but in abundance in Tobacco leaves. Nicotine is a stimulant like coffee. It is addictive like coffee. It can make the heart race like coffee. It is not known to cause cancer. It has been researched for many years.

If something is labeled "Tobacco related", shouldn't it contain tobacco? I don't see that tobacco and ecig liquid have anything in common except nicotine, but what about liquid that contains no nicotine? Is it illegal to inhale steam? Inhale coffee steam? Tea steam? Vicks vapor rub steam? Without nicotine, you have propylene glycol or glycerine (used in cooking and shampoos, lotions, etc.) and flavoring used in baked goods. 50 years ago, propylene glycol was used in respiratory therapy in hospitals.

There is nothing tobacco related in e-cigs. Except for nicotine. Which has been researched for many years. Inhaling steam in itself is not tobacco related or illegal.

And this all comes from an FDA who considers tobacco and cigarettes to be perfectly legal for many years, that is known to cause cancer. Cigarettes are legal. But a device that has a battery and liquid to make steam from is not legal because it's labeled as tobacco related, which is wrong, and may contain nicotine, which has been researched for many years and "grandfathered" in. 

I am so disgusted with the corrupt system that protects Big Tobacco. I'm disgusted with how much money the FDA makes from taxes on tobacco, and they say they want people to quit smoking but they really don't because they would lose their "cash cow". Follow the money and you can see how blatant this crooked situation is. 

I'm ranting.


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## CFAdmin

You are but it's right. I read an article on it. I'm heading to my shop this afternoon to pick up a ton. I'm sure everyone else is too.


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## robin416

From what I read, you've got time. Supposedly nothing much will get done in the regulation until mid 2018.


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## seminole wind

Yea apparently the stuff can be sold until next year during the grace period for stock I guess.

However, there are a number of Vaping groups that are suing the FDA. How can they put ecigs under a category of Tobacco rules when there is NO tobacco? No one can tell me that all the FDA admin and all the Big tobacco admin can tell me there's not one brain in there that knows there is NO tobacco in them. 

I get really upset about this stuff. 8-10 years ago, this all started very innocently and the e-cig-forum was loaded with members that had used them to get away from smoking. We were all so proud of ourselves and did a lot of discussing better methods of use, throat hit and vapor. In effect, improving the device and use to give ex-smokers enough satisfaction to stay ex smokers. 

As vaping gained in popularity due to it's success, our entire group of vapers have become evil people who inhale antifreeze and poison and want to get their kids hooked on vaping , which is worse than smoking, and the FDA has categorized vapes as tobacco products when there is no tobacco involved . And let the Big Tobacco write the guidelines for Vaporizors or e-cigs. Kindof like the cat being put in charge of the mice.


----------



## seminole wind

I bought something called a wismec theorem, an atomizer that you build your own coils on. The first one I bought with a no name brand leaked all over the place no matter what I did. This one does not appear to leak. But they had pre installed a coil and wick and a wire isn't working. So now I'll have to drain it and use another wick. 

They are kind of interesting. I'm doing this out of curiousity. On that forum, they have these most likely younger guys that make coils that are works of art. Kind of competitive.


----------



## robin416

Remember AFIS and how they wanted every animal under that umbrella? It took hobbyists to get it through the powers that be thick heads to make them see that this would put undue hardship on those not keeping animals for commercial use. Like trail riders, us with our chickens, etc.

Chances are if they keep their heads they can work this out so the FDA will take a step back and rethink this.


----------



## seminole wind

The oral part of the suit is in October. I hope someone sees how ridiculous the FDA is being. GB, France and Italy are doing well in their country's with vaping. Germany is having one of those battles like us. 

The most hilarious thing the FDA had in their regulations was that if you have 0 nicotine and a vaping device, it's still under tobacco-related due to INTENT!!!!! I swear do they think we're all stupid?


----------



## CFAdmin

I still have to replace my broken tank and atomizer. It sucks going without it.


----------



## robin416

You just reminded me that I keep meaning to pick up an extra tank. I've dropped the new one a couple of times, all it takes is one time for it to hit right and break then I'll be in the same pickle.


----------



## seminole wind

Now I've tried 3 of those sub zero or drip or whatever make your own coil atomizers and I'm probably selling them. It's just awful , either burns with throat hit and no exhaled smoke or it's better for direct lung vaping. I'm not sure I like that. It's like you really have to cut your nicotine in half to do that direct lung vapes. Or it hits you real fast.

Or maybe keep one make-your-own coils. But they really suck air, and I mean suck air!


----------



## robin416

You are so far over my head on this coil business it's not funny.


----------



## seminole wind

I have an average setup. Simple and works well. I've had it for a few years or 4-5 years. You inhale it like a cigarette. Vape into mouth then to lungs.

I hadn't been on the vaping forum for a few years. I go back because of the politics. Things have changed. Now they have atomizers that have less than 1 ohm of resistance. So you need like more than 30 watts to use it. That's why people blow their faces off. 

Then everything is a drip tip. For people who don't like to fill a tank, they like to carry a bottle they can drip a few drops in the top instead. So it looks like everything out there for sale has this big wide drip tip. It's like sucking on a coke bottle, LOL.
And instead of buying a ready made cartridge like coil, it's now popular to build your own. It sort of looks like spring from inside a pen and filled with cotton. So I've learned how to make coils.

So I get this rebuildable tank (RTA) that needs a coil. I make a coil, set it all up and it won't fire. So for the next 10 hours, I'm troubleshooting to find out why. Just simple stuff with an ohm meter. After all that, there's no short. It must have had a protective coating on the pin that connects to the battery to power the atomizer. I filed the surface a few time and now it works. But the thing is either too hot and burns, or way too airy like sucking air without any resistance . Not for me. But people like them because they can vape direct lung. Just sucking vapor straight into the lungs. I must be an old fart because it's just not my thing.

Now I need to resell all this crap. 
If you want to see what I'm playing with, go to Myvaporstore.com and search for "Theorem" and "Avocado". 

If you are looking for paying really cheap and can wait a few weeks for the mail, look at Fasttech.com. All kinds of everything. Shipped from China and takes paypal.


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## seminole wind

http://listverse.com/2014/11/12/10-facts-that-everyone-gets-wrong-about-vaping/


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## robin416

I've seen those drip tips somewhere. Not my cup of tea by a long shot. I like the ease of the eleaf so I'm not particularly interested in the having to work at taking a hit. I'd rather go back to smoking.


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## seminole wind

You are right. I think it's something the youngers like to do. They also make these fancy braided coils that are absolutely works of art. So I can make coils . But I'm selling those RTA's.


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## seminole wind

I've tried many tanks over the years, and always come back to this $5-10 cheapy that works the best. It's an Aspire mini Vivi Nova with a 510 connection (like the eleaf istick). The BVC coils are outstanding and inexpensive. No matter what I've tried, this one works the best for me. I do think that Aspire products are the best, that's an opinion. If I can wait a few weeks I order from Fasttech in China. Free shipping. But I can't order the liquid because it will be confiscated.

The oral arguments between the FDA and Nicopure were supposed to have taken place 2 days ago on 10/11/2016.. This suit is purely about that the FDA has not followed the legal guidelines by what they did. What they did was Require any vaping product made after 4/2007 requires lengthy and expensive testing of each component and each e-liquid. A supplier could have hundreds of variations that would require testing at the cost of $750,000 for each one. If one has not started filing, they will be shut down. So they have put thousands of small business owners out of business. 

They do not have any evidence to back up what they do. They can "state" vaping products are not smoking cessation devices, but have no data to back that up. They can't use the argument "long term effects" because at 10 years, there's been no evidence of harm from properly using vaping products. 

They have also tried to make it appear that vaping products will continue to help people continue to smoke. (Where do they get these ideas from?) 

I have been on an ecig forum since a year after it started. I am within the first year of people using vaping to quit smoking (2007).. The forum is now 250,000 members , most have which quit smoking with vaping products. I'm tired of listening to people talk about vaping as if they know it's toxic, aimed at children, just as bad as smoking, a gateway to smoking, etc. There is no documentation. In fact the only documentation available is how vaping is a way to quit smoking and be healthier. But anything positive about vaping is buried by the FDA and many other organizations. 

However, the positive information about vaping is slowly coming out in drips and drabs. The Huffington post just came out with an article with positive things to say about vaping. They were always negative articles.

I think the most important lessons I've learned is yes, the Gov. does lie. The Gov. has been "bought" by Big Tobacco Companies. Money talks even with a Gov. that's supposed to do what's best for people and strive to improve health. Also, I've learned how very little research the Gov. does to make an important decision. In this case, the FDA has only gone by internet hearsay to make a decision that hurts thousands of people, vapers, suppliers, small businesses, and the families of people that smoke, smokers' children, and smokers. And the creativity and improvements that make vaping even better , meaning more attraction for those looking to quit smoking.


----------



## CFAdmin

I'm back to two packs a day without mine. It definitely help you cut down and stop. I'm living proof of that when I have one that works.


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## seminole wind

Austin, with all the money you're saving, you could take a trip to Europe next year.


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## robin416

I've seen a big difference in our bank account now that we don't buy three cartons a week.


----------



## CFAdmin

seminolewind said:


> Austin, with all the money you're saving, you could take a trip to Europe next year.


I could, or I could just pay off my debt and be free of it. I have no desire to visit Europe. My ancestors let for a reason. Because they were crazy religious people escaping oppression.



robin416 said:


> I've seen a big difference in our bank account now that we don't buy three cartons a week.


And that's my problem. Both my wife and I smoke, but I'm the heavier smoker. When I'm not working I smoke like a freight train.


----------



## havasu

You could always get hooked on Nicorette Gum. I've been for 13 years.


----------



## robin416

Hmm, depending on how much you chew that could be as expensive as a carton of cigarettes a week.

The gum just never worked for me. I tried the patches for a while but ended up sensitive to the adhesive. It's almost like something doesn't want me to quit smoking.


----------



## havasu

Costco has sales on the gum at $12 off the price of $62, and I go through two boxes a month, so it is about $100 a month for the nasty habit but at least my breath is fresh and the docs seem to think it is OK long term.


----------



## Nm156

I buy the 1 lb. bag of tobacco for $13.99.
2 boxes of 250 count tubes for $2.49 each.
yield almost 2.5 cartons for $20.


----------



## chickenqueen

I did that for a couple of years but all I could find in menthol tobacco was for pipes and it was really rough even tho I used the light tubes.I did enjoy making the cigarettes,would make the next days cigs while watching tv.I had the neatest silver cigarette case I could carry in my back pocket.It was a lot cheaper and less trips to the tobacco store.


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## Nm156

The secret is that when cut differently it can be labelled as "pipe" tobacco tax class J.When cut as "cigarette" tobacco it is a different tax class with a higher price.Got to love the loop holes.


----------



## robin416

I did think about RYO's. About the same time I heard about them, TN put most of the places out of business by jacking up the price on loose tobacco.


----------



## CFAdmin

havasu said:


> Costco has sales on the gum at $12 off the price of $62, and I go through two boxes a month, so it is about $100 a month for the nasty habit but at least my breath is fresh and the docs seem to think it is OK long term.


Nicotine itself is not a known carcinogen. I'm no Doctor but I'm sure you'll be alright, I just wonder why all my dip and chew is going to give me mouth cancer if gum is alright? I don't get it, but again, not a Doc.


----------



## seminole wind

Nicotine is not a carcinogen. But since this all happened 10 years ago, between the FDA and nuts and the American Cancer Society, they either didn't know or they kept that part to themselves.

I am still digging to find out what testing nicotine gum had to go through. But I'm sure it's been grandfathered in, haha. However, it's the same as vaping liquid in that there is no tobacco in it. 

You know there's something wrong or not fair seriously when the .Gov will end up pushing vaping into black market. Especially when it's nicotine that's a derivative of tobacco. Not everything else involved with vaping that is not a derivative of tobacco such as food flavoring, glycerin, and propylene Glycol, and vaping liquid that's zero nicotine. And why in all these years were hookahs, roach clips, rolling paper for sale and may have been used for illegal substances and the .Gov never did a thing about that. 

I guess when you have the money BT does, and know how to spread it around, the rules aren't the same for them or they are so awful for vaping products that it will put small businesses out of business , categorize non tobacco derived products as tobacco under tobacco regulation, make the research too expensive, and worst of all, allow smoking cigarettes to continue to kill people. That's almost like Government derived murder!

I'd like to add that I have no negative feelings toward smokers. Some just can't quit or it's not their time to quit now. My anger is directed at the government using smokers as cash cows and doing anything it can to make sure that smokers keep that money rolling in and making BT and .Gov rich. Oh , and acting like they want people to stop smoking by offering nicotine gum, lozenges, and patches that have a 75% failure rate at one year of use.


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## havasu

Yeah, I tried all of the above in an attempt to quit smoking. I an proud to say that I have not smoked one cigarette or cigar since I started chewing nicorette gum.


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## seminole wind

That's worth celebrating! Something to be proud of.


----------



## robin416

OK, time to get some advice from the expert.

Today is the first time since I got the Eleaf that I took it apart and cleaned it. And the only reason I did that is because the liquid kept turning brown after a couple of hits. I knew something wasn't right with that. 

It's amazing the difference it made. Oh and I replaced the atomizer since the other was the original and had some little things sticking out of the holes that shouldn't have been there.

Considering the slow roll to not operating at peak efficiency so that I didn't notice it for so long, what would a good cleaning schedule be?


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## seminole wind

Well, the atomizer is the first thing to need replacing. Mine can last anywhere from a week to a month and I change it if I get gurgling or dry hits too much. The plastic seal gets worn. Some do have little pieces of fiber sticking out of the holes and it helps the saturation. Some people change their atomizer more often. You can't clean an atomizer.

Most of the liquids I have tend to oxidize after a while. They start out clear and get darker due to what the flavors are.
The tank or main body, some people give them a good cleaning. I usually just use a piece of paper towel and a cue tip if I change flavors. I normally clean as needed or when I change the atomizer I give everything a good wipe on the connections. I guess alcohol pads would work too. When you use a new atomizer, always give it 20-30 minutes to saturate or you burn the fiber and the taste does not go away.

I have much better luck with 3ml tanks than 1.5 or 2 ml tanks. For some reason the 3ml, IMO does not give the dry hits that the smaller ones do. I'll have to look up my latest bargain. Davide tanks that take aspire BVC atomizers for $5.99 when the price is usually $15 or more.

So my best efficiency is replacing the atomizer, wiping inside the tank, and important is making sure your connections are clean and dry.


----------



## seminole wind

Political update:

Yesterday there was an article on Yahoo news that said some states are charging a higher tax on the liquid. Funny when the gov hasn't even approved it yet. The article says that cigarettes will go up $2 per pack to make up for the people that no longer buy cigarettes. One in the article suggests charging higher taxes on vaping liquid, making it more expensive to vape.

Sounds to us like it's still a money thing, based on profit and not health. For an item that was created to help die hard smokers quit smoking, cheap, 95% healthier than smoking, simple and inexpensive, the GOV and BT can't figure a way to make up money in vaping that they are loosing in tobacco sale. It would be really hard to do since the liquid can be made at home, haha, and the main ingredients found in stores and Walmart. There are some places still selling big bottles of glycerin or propylene glycol with nicotine . So it's a matter of being able to make your e-liquid at home. You can also buy food flavoring online for any flavor under the sun.

I (we) are tired of being manipulated purely for profit with .GOV saying safety is their concern. Now they say that the liquid is full of carcinogenic ingredients ( if liquid is used in incorrectly, it can release harmful chemicals). .GOV now claims the liquid causes birth defects and lung cancer. Well I don't know how that can be true since vaping products have only been on the market here for only 9 years. 9 years is not long enough to make statements like that. And probably another lie since they are so good at that. Up to this point there has been no serious health related problems .

.GOV wants control and profit. If vaping goes underground, it's the easiest way to take that away from them. Then they have nothing. GB allows vaping with certain guidelines that are fair and protect vapers such as % of nicotine. 

Someone on that vaping forum insinuated that I was not enlightened and I wanted to hurt smokers because I used the word tobacco interchangeably with smoker, and my comment about cigarettes are costing more may end up with smokers looking elsewhere .He said I would be punishing smokers for smokers for being smokers (Arse!) It ended up with me telling him that he was not mature enough to see the whole picture. Anyway, he sees all vapers as starting due to health reasons. Not true. There are other reasons that bring people to want to get away from cigarettes.

Another poster joined in and gave me a lump in my throat. He said he started for one reason, and then the whole vaper thing changed from being about himself to being part of a bigger picture . He said it's just not about himself anymore.

Same here. Something happened in 2009 that just grabbed me and I became concerned (obsessed) about how the Big Tobacco and .GOV manipulate smokers into remaining their cash cows. .GOV relies heavily on the fact that most of America think the FDA is looking out for them and their health. They are using that trust to manipulate smokers into remaining smokers and continue to pretend to be pro health offering methods that don't work, meanwhile trying to put an end to vaping products, and convince the public that vaping is as bad as smoking doing it by lies and deceit . Nothing they say is backed by any kind of valid research. 

My goal in this is to help smokers know there is another way to quit. . I don't continue to talk about it unless they have a question about vaping. To enlighten smokers with as little words as possible. That's my contribution to the big picture. People can make their own decisions. I just want them to know that there is a more successful way to quit and even better with the right equipment.

It makes me crazy upset to know how smokers are being manipulated by Big Tobacco and especially Government and how they do it.


----------



## robin416

OK, I need to get some extras in here for doing a regular switch out.

My juice is clear and normally stays clear, that's why I was alerted to something not being right.


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## CFAdmin

My juice stays clear when I use my eleaf. When I use my cheap pos system it only take a couple of drags before it's scorched. They are both broke so it doesn't matter right now.


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## robin416

For Petes sake, Austin, what do you do to those things that they are always inop?


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## havasu

Umm, I thought Austin quit a month ago?


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## seminole wind

Havasu, maybe he's not ready yet. Some people need to wait till their ready.
In the mean time, get a few that work, Austin

I'm having a lot better luck with 3 ml tanks than 2 ml tanks. 
Robin, some liquids get dark, or darker with age, or not dark, etc. Someone explained it to me as it depends on what kind of flavoring was used. I use 2 from vapor4life that stay clear especially. Oasis and Hiltop. I don't know why. Some do oxydize as well like if the tank is left unused for a while.
To me, changing the atomizer is my maintenance. Sometimes I'll alcohol swab the connections on the battery. I'll swab everything if the flavor is driving me nuts and I'm changing.


----------



## robin416

Somewhere along the line I've got some issues with mine. For some reason after I fill it up it will fault and say no atomizer detected. If I unscrew it and screw it back together it works fine.


----------



## seminole wind

I get that too. I don't know why except to say that mine does that too, especially if I drop it. Sometimes I open the tank up and make sure the atomizer is screwed tight enough. Otherwise , what would you expect from cheap China parts?


----------



## robin416

I haven't dropped mine in quite a while. And not since I cleaned it. But since I did replace the coil and that's when it started I'll see if it's tight enough. 

I have to fill it again today anyway. Might as well check then.


----------



## CFAdmin

robin416 said:


> For Petes sake, Austin, what do you do to those things that they are always inop?


I use snus and steal drags. It sucks and I need to stop doing it. I need a broken vape savings so I can just have cash on hand when they brake. Stupid bills getting in the way.



havasu said:


> Umm, I thought Austin quit a month ago?


I'm still vaping. It's like the gum but it better suites the fixation I've found.


----------



## robin416

snus and steal drags


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## CFAdmin

I take puffs from my wife who still smokes, and snus is like dip but cleaner and it fits in your upper lip. I use it for plane rides.


----------



## seminole wind

In planes, in the bathroom, take a drag and either hold it for 5 seconds or exhale down your shirt. It works.

If you hold the vapor for 5 seconds , it disappears.

If you have PP, you can order from Fasttech in China. Cheaper, free shipping, but takes a few weeks. Whatever , but simple tanks like an aspire BVC tank. Cheaper and the atomizers are cheap. Get the ones marked 1.8 ohms or less. I find vapor4life has the least expensive for really good e-liquid. I've tried so many others and they are just not as good. They usually have big sales like 35% off every week, and I used to get the email sales, but they stopped and I guess I need to ask them why.

Another really good cheap brand is Kanger, but I have problems finding it.

Austin I would not feel guilty in any way about snus and stealing puffs. You have to go at rate of quitting at your own speed, or maybe you can get by with snus and vaping and stealing puffs. I had RY4 and 555 (triple nickel, triple 5, etc) at the time and within 10 days the taste was so good, it made tobacco cigarettes taste worse.


----------



## CFAdmin

Well my replacement vape broke so now I'm waiting for more cash to come my way so I can buy the replacement parts.

I have the worst luck with my vapes.


----------



## robin416

Maybe your purchasing requirement is that it be solid as a tank.

What I did do is buy a sleeve that goes on the battery of my Eleaf. That way if I drop it there is a little bit of cushioning between it and the tile floor.

Karen, I'm still smoking about four a day. Some days I want to climb the walls for a real cigarette, then there are days I'll put the same one out four different times through the day. It's still much better than it was.


----------



## seminole wind

Still good for you! This is something we all did for many years and it's hard to quit smoking. With this, it's not as painful, and might be more satisfying. But it's something you do for you when you can. It's all progress. 

I know in my first 10 days, I had the few cigarettes I could not give up. But I guess at that point buying another pack means getting in the car to the gas station......and I just didn't feel like it. 

Those tanks that I love are Davide , 3ml, for aspire BVC atomizers. I got them for a superb deal at Anyvape online.


----------



## robin416

I stumbled across the fact there are American made vape mods. Well, I guess they have the pens too. Pricey but knowing they're made here made my heart go pitty pat.


----------



## seminole wind

Yea the pen types are good. Some better than others. But I have found that when you go for something different, it requires a different atomizer so one ends up buying a whole new setup. I absolutely won't buy anything with rechargeable batteries that you take out to charge. If you get a minor slight different length depending on what Chinese company they came from, then it won't reach the contacts and fire. Some have an "Ego" connection that fits the battery part differently so it means more new atomizers. 

Yea there's been times where I was vain and needed more cigarette looks in a setup and that was fine. But the volts only went to "5" when the volts were really 3.5 meaning the drag was less vapor and not satisfying enough. 

I am giving you opinion based on the the things I've gone through. This does not mean there arent' others that are not good.


----------



## robin416

The American made does have the mods like the Eleaf so there is a choice of higher output or wanting the looks of the real thing.


----------



## seminole wind

True. If you want more output, it requires a bigger battery and too big to fit in a look a like cig. I had luck with the spinner and the ego vari-volt. But they are 3.7 volt, and claim to feel like a 5 volt. Sometimes a 1.8 and lower ohm atomizer can compensate for it. But nothing I've had so far (and I've had many) is as good as, reliable as, care free as the eleaf istick variable battery. I've tried many tanks that are supposed to be "better" than a plain old aspire BVC set up, and found they are either expensive, expensive replacement attys, finicky, too 'airy", have an airflow adjustment that I really don't care for. I've tried the ones you build your own coil and they are just too much bother for not something I like. 

Some people have the "bulky" setup at home that is very satisfying, and a "travel" setup that looks more like streamlined. 
The replaceable "coils" come in different amounts of resistance from more that 2.8 to less that 1.5. I can dig you up a chart of how many volts go with how many ohms. But I always stick to a 1.5-1.8, and adjust with a vary volt battery like the eleaf. I stick to aspire BVC coils because the quality is most consistant and they last a good long time. They generally last me 2 weeks to a month plus. When I replace it, it's because it's either gurgling or a hard draw. I try to get my coils on ebay or fasttech because they're cheaper. Fastech is cheapest but you wait weeks for mail from China. 

Some younger people get involved with "sub ohm" setups. They like big clouds. However the liquid is heated to a point where it releases somewhat toxic chemicals. So I stay away from that. They are the ones that also blow up in your face. That's what happens when you push something beyond it's limits, like a battery. Turning your voltage up to 30 watts with a coil that has less than 1 ohm (literally no resistance) is dangerous.

But a lot of times I think experimenting can be fun and makeup for a part of not smoking. Maybe type A people need something to obsess over, LOL. 

FYI, I have fallen in love with this liquid called "Katy's Virus" by Nicoticket. I don't like their other products but Katy's virus is one of things that you can't put your finger on, and the flavor has different sides to it. The closest I can describe it is like an RY4 (caramel-ish tobacco), sometimes a bit of cinnamon, sometimes a bit of raisin, sometimes a bit of rum. It's an addicting unusual taste. If you or Austin happened to buy a bottle and don't like it, I'll buy it off you or trade you for another flavor from what I have (basically a few types of yummy tobacco). Or when I order it I can send you a sample.

Robin, are you talking about American made mods or hardware or liquid?


----------



## seminole wind

Update. Not really an update. Just observation.

It looks as tho the new Presidential cabinet will work on cleaning out stupid regulations. I hear the top FDA guy will also be replaced. It looks like there's possibly things in the our story is pretty close to other FDA drugs (Big Pharma) having the same predicament. 

We have 2 e-cigarette shops here. One 10 miles away and one 16 miles away. The other night one advertised itself and it's products including e-juice. Leads me to believe that there are some sellers that are actually ignoring this stuff . Hopefull they are .


----------



## robin416

We've got them on almost every corner, sort of like Starbucks. Now I can go around and check out the different fluids without having to turn to the internet.


----------



## seminole wind

The ecig store near me advertises on our local Tampa tv station. What a hoot. One of the defense reasons is that the Government can't pass laws that selectively deter small businesses from growing. Which they have done. 

I take breaks from that website threads because it gets me too upset. Something good is invented for the right reasons only to get shredded by the FDA.

5 years ago, I thought that the FDA was actually trying to stall the e-cig movement until the Big Tobacco companies could get their products doing well on the market. Meanwhile the Tobacco companies have been buying out small businesses. Once the tobacco companies have products that are competitive in the market or take over the market, I'll bet the FDA goes away.


----------



## CFAdmin

We have them all over the place too. It's convenient, but I buy bulk when I buy it so I haven't had a chance to try new juices.


----------



## seminole wind

I personally don't think there will be a mass law or regulation that will work now. It's gone too far. There are so many sources to get what you want, even a website that talks about going underground. It seems like the people I deal with on line are not operating any different. It appears that this regulation states that these small businesses have to start the process within the next 2 years. The FDA does not even address that if 10 different businesses sell the exact same liquid, why would money be wasted on testing these many times. Redundant.


----------



## CFAdmin

seminolewind said:


> I personally don't think there will be a mass law or regulation that will work now. It's gone too far. There are so many sources to get what you want, even a website that talks about going underground. It seems like the people I deal with on line are not operating any different. It appears that this regulation states that these small businesses have to start the process within the next 2 years. The FDA does not even address that if 10 different businesses sell the exact same liquid, why would money be wasted on testing these many times. Redundant.


That's the government though, redundant.


----------



## seminole wind

Yea I hope the new team will see how much time the FDA is spending on comparing tobacco cigarettes to glorified fruit punch. Not one time have they spoke with anyone who is in favor of vaping and has read a ton of material written by researchers and doctors. Not one time have they wrote the pros and cons about vaping. Just the cons they assume are there. 

Istill say it's gone too far already. They're trying to put the cat back in the bag.


----------



## seminole wind

E-cigs are 95% healthier than tobacco. If you misuse the hardware you can blow your face off. 
Here's a list of possible side effects from CHANTIX from their website.


Chantix side effects
Abnormal Dreams
Chronic Trouble Sleeping
Feel Like Throwing Up
Gas
Head Pain
Incomplete or Infrequent Bowel Movements
Throwing Up
Angina
Trouble Breathing
Acute Infection of the Nose, Throat or Sinus
Condition in which Stomach Acid is Pushed Into the Esophagus
Drowsiness
Dry Mouth
Excessive Sweating
Feeling Weak
Increased Hunger
Indigestion
Itching
Loss of Appetite
Low Energy
Nightmares
Not Feeling Well
Rash
Runny Nose
Sluggishness
Stomach Cramps
Abnormal Heart Rhythm
Abnormal Liver Function Tests
Anemia
Anxious
Behaving with Excessive Cheerfulness and Activity
Chest Pain
Delusions
Depression
Diabetes
Erythema Multiforme
Giant Hives
Hallucination
Having Thoughts of Suicide
Heart Attack
High Blood Pressure
Injury
Mental Disorder with Loss of Normal Personality & Reality
Panic Disorder
Paranoia
Problems Metabolizing Alcohol
Seizures
Stevens-Johnson Syndrome
Stroke
Suicidal
Thoughts of Hurting or Killing Others
Transient Ischemic Attack
Unconscious
Aggressive Behavior
Backache
Cannot Focus Thoughts
Cramps
Diarrhea
Disturbance of Attention
Dizzy
Excess Urination
Feeling Anger Toward Something
Feeling Restless
Flu-Like Symptoms
Heart Throbbing or Pounding
Hives
Joint Pain
Mood Changes
Muscle Pain
Nosebleed
Peripheral Vascular Disease
Problem Behavior
Problem with Periods
Problems with Eyesight
Reaction due to an Allergy
Ringing in the Ears
Sensation of Spinning or Whirling
Sleep Disorder
Swollen Lymph Nodes
Taste Problems
Temporary Redness of Face and Neck
Visible Water Retention
Weight Gain

Nausea, headache, vomiting, drowsiness, gas, constipation, trouble sleeping, unusual dreams, or changes in taste may occur. If any of these effects last or get worse, tell your doctor or pharmacist promptly.

Remember that your doctor has prescribed this medication because he or she has judged that the benefit to you is greater than the risk of side effects. Many people using this medication do not have serious side effects.

Tell your doctor right away if you have any serious side effects, including: burning feeling in feet/toes, unusual pain in the legs when walking.

Stop taking varenicline and get medical help right away if you have any very serious side effects, including: seizure, symptoms of a heart attack (such as chest/jaw/left arm pain, shortness of breath, unusual sweating), signs of a stroke (such as weakness on one side of the body, trouble speaking, sudden vision changes, confusion).

A very serious allergic reaction to this drug is rare. However, get medical help right away if you notice any symptoms of a serious allergic reaction, including: rash, itching/swelling (especially of the face/tongue/throat), severe dizziness, trouble breathing


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## Maryellen

I quit cold turkey 3 years ago, I used the e cig for a few months to to help me get over the hump


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## seminole wind

I'm glad you found something to help you. good for you!


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## seminole wind

https://vaping.com/blog/uncategorized/vaping-infographic/

2016 in the vaping world


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## Maryellen

Once the battery died in the e cig I kept it around . It's still in my console in my truck as I did alot of my smoking there going to and from work. It was the security blanket I needed for that short time . I got it at Rite Aid drug store, cost me $7 for one menthol e cig lol but worked magic for the habit ..


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## redstripe787

seminolewind said:


> I personally don't think there will be a mass law or regulation that will work now. It's gone too far. There are so many sources to get what you want, even a website that talks about going underground. It seems like the people I deal with on line are not operating any different. It appears that this regulation states that these small businesses have to start the process within the next 2 years. The FDA does not even address that if 10 different businesses sell the exact same liquid, why would money be wasted on testing these many times. Redundant.


I found this article about exactly what the fda regulations mean at http://blog.jvapes.com/fda-regulations-on-e-cigarettes-is-public-safety-the-primary-concern/


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## seminole wind

redstripe787 said:


> I found this article about exactly what the fda regulations mean at http://blog.jvapes.com/fda-regulations-on-e-cigarettes-is-public-safety-the-primary-concern/


are you a chicken owner or a troll?


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## seminole wind

This is the best part of the whole article!!!! (I do not know this person. She left a comment on some site. ) So, I like the story, but I don't know this person.



One thought on “FDA Regulations on E-Cigarettes: Is Public Safety The Primary Concern?” 
Kathi says: 
June 24, 2016 at 6:30 pm 
OMG!! This is a ‘must read’ for vapers, non-vapers, and the general public!! Please read and share. It is shocking on so many levels!! I’m not typically a politically minded person however the whole Vaping issue gets me fired up. Especially when I read articles like this!!! Why does it have to be such a huge issue? (I know…money) but why can’t they just leave us alone to vape if we choose as adults?? (I know…money) As if these people need it. You know…the guy who’s income so sadly went down from $125 million ($115? I forget already-lets call it old age) to $90 million yearly?? Here I am, fully disabled, having worked since I was 10 (babysitting, pet sitting, anything that would make me a few extra dollars) until I got my working papers at 14… Then I mostly worked waitressing, busing tables, washing dishes, etc. (usually under the table cuz it was a more readily available option back then plus you could make a few bucks more that way. Then onto being a horseback riding coach (again, a cash only business and the way I paid for food while in college). I did have a few jobs ‘on the books’ off and on over the years and got my nursing license in 1995 when I worked for the state for a few years then thankfully began doing Agency work and payed into Social Security. Why share all this? When I see these liars, cheats, and fools making tens of millions of dollars while I worked hard all my life. I often worked 2 and 3 jobs at once just to survive. Then my body finally gives out to the point of full disability in my early 50’s, and I am forced to apply for social security and our fabulous government determines that I had paid in for my 10 CONSECUTIVE quarters and they think a disabled person can live on $700/month!!! Thank God my husband (who is also disabled due to a work accident) is able to work enough to bring in enough to get our bills paid. It just blows me away that the Federal Government that allows these ridiculously highly paid Federal employees to f#%k up the way so many of them have (especially the FDA people) is the same Federal Government that says disabled or elderly people can live on next to nothing or that vaping is a bad thing (so let’s spend millions in law suits or ‘research’ to disprove research that has been done multiple times by reputable researchers, etc. ad naseum).
Sorry this is so long and that I jumped up onto my soap box but c’mon…doesn’t it fire you up when you read articles like this? Aaargh!! I get so angry when I think about what they’re trying to do about vaping!!!! (Can you tell?). I don’t want a “**** the FDA” T shirt, I just want one that says “**** the Federal Government” instead! It covers way more injustice!!


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## seminole wind

Most of Europe is okay with vaping. Why? Their .gov is not making a fortune from tobacco companies. CASAA was started long ago by some really good people who just want to educate the public about vaping. 

If Anyone can't recite at least 3 positives vaping has over smoking tobacco cigarettes, they are lying or too stupid to read the facts. Vaping is not another means of imbibing tobacco. The only thing it has in common with tobacco is NICOTINE- as in patches, lozenges and gum. 

I smoked for 35 years because nothing helped me quit. But vaping did. So here I am with millions of others worldwide who have given up smoking . I'll be darned if any non smoker can tell me how hard it is to quit and how grateful we are to stop smoking. Vaping is 95% safer than smoking tobacco cigarettes. Anyone who's intelligent enough to read all material available will find that vaping is heating up mostly glycerin, food flavoring, and a chosen % of nicotine to cause steam. If you think it's more than that you are wrong. I am proud to say that I had smoked for 35 years and have not had a cigarette since April of 2009. I wake up every morning thanking God for the person(s) who made it possible for me to stop smoking with vaping. I have to laugh at all those non smokers/non vapers who think they know better. You do not.


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## seminole wind

$crew the FDA. They are part of that swamp that will be drained!


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## Maryellen

Chantix,also has a black box warning, you can die on it.


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## Nm156

I guess $700 is better than getting the "We feel that your disability impairs your work,but you should be able to do other work" and therefor you receive $0.


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## chickenqueen

I hear you,Sem!!!I went on disability in my 40's after working in the health care field over 25 years.I went from making $4000+ a month to a monthly income of $954.My reward for paying into the system for 30 years.But I can still buy food for us and the animals and that's all that matters.Plus,I get more time to spend on my flock...


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## seminole wind

Maryellen said:


> Chantix,also has a black box warning, you can die on it.


Look at post# 164 re chantix


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## seminole wind

It's such a waste of taxpayer's money to be squabbling over vaping. I guess it's better to keep smoking and die early and save the taxpayers some money for SS, Medicare, hospital bills, etc, than have people give up smoking and live. One billion people will die in this century from smoking related illnesses- and no one gives a dam about it. 

Instead of putting thousands of small businesses out of business, did the FDA ever think of publishing a pros/cons brief? Or let the public know that their findings are premature and not thorough enough to publish anything?


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## CFAdmin

Big pharma makes a ton of money from smoking related diseases so they are not opposed to smoking as a consequence. Same with insurance companies. It's a scam and I hate it.


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## seminole wind

I agree, Austin. I think that what's happening between .gov and $$$ , and .gov and true concern for Americans (NOT) is a reflection of the whole .gov swamp. Then, of course you have the dishonest media who will twist anything they want to sell a bigger story, society who love believing the worst. It's like everyone got off the anti-smoking band wagon and jumped on the anti-vape wagon....and most of them can't even give a valid reason why.


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## robin416

Welcome to our free market society. Until/unless business' like big pharma are reined it do not count on there being any relief for the people of this country.


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## CFAdmin

robin416 said:


> Welcome to our free market society. Until/unless business' like big pharma are reined it do not count on there being any relief for the people of this country.


We have to find a way for that to stop. It's a burden.


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## seminole wind

well, if XXXXX gives us a medical insurance account, it could be like uship. post the surgery you need done and get bids.

if you see the medicare bills, medicare never gives hospitals and docs what they ask. they get a very reduced rate. these ins companies give big breaks to "groups" when they should be treating or billing us all at a group rate.

to get free or almost free medical care, you need to be poor, old, in prison, a refugee, or a POW.


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## robin416

Getting a bit off topic here.


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## CFAdmin

robin416 said:


> Getting a bit off topic here.


LOL, it's funny because it's a mod and an admin. Back on topic. Sorry for the interruption.


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## robin416

Mods as in plural since I made an off topic comment myself.


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## seminole wind

We are all guilty.


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## havasu

Variety is the spice of life!


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## Maryellen

The e cig I used from rite aid you couldn't change the flavor. It was either menthol or plain and was $7. They were more like a throwaway kind. Once the battery died it was done


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## robin416

I never used those but what I did start with was barely a step up from the disposables. And why it failed for me that time. I stepped up one level later, that also failed. The Eleaf that Karen mentioned has been much more workable and satisfying.


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## seminole wind

yea, I use an estick ileaf which does not look a cigarette, and an aspire BVC tank. Then I order my juice from vapor4life which I find the best and can choose your nicotine. Always fill and wait 20 minutes before you use it. I don't buy my equipment there because they have their own brand. But they are very popular and very good.

The ones that look more like a cig , I like a Spinner or Ego twist. They can be adjusted stronger or weaker. Same tank but a smaller mini version like Aspire mini BVC. Watch your tank/battery connection. It's either regular or EGO twist. Both are fine. BDC or BVC is the type of atomizer for a regular non EGO connection. It's a small thing that the battery heats up.

if you can wait 2-3 weeks, you can order anything but juice from fasttech. they are in China but its free shipping and cheaper.

so there's 4 parts. Tank, battery (rechargeable 3-5 volts), atomizer (BDC or BVC) and liquid (6mg for lights , 12-18mg. for regular nicotine, 24mg very strong filterless cig comparison). Virgin Glycerin or Propylene Glycol (vg or pg) for a base. Most people like 50/50. VG is sweeter,thicker, and produces bigger clouds. PG produces more throat hit.

I like Vapor4Life's WOW Premium (75pg,25vg). Others like the WOW (75% vg and 25% PG). In 8 years my favorite has been Triple Nickle (555) (a nutty tobacco) and Oasis or Wowboy (more plain "tobacco"). People like dessert and fruit flavors. There must be 100 flavors out there.

My favorite info and support website is e-cigarette-forums.com 
Those " sub 0" setups you can buy are dangerous. They can blow up your face. I like plug in rechargers. Others like rechargeable batteries, but always buy "protected" batteries.

This is all my opinion based on 8 years of use. My choice of equipment is the least pain in the a$$ I've used. I love adjustable watts or volts. I like equipment that's no fuss. I always have a back up. 

8 years ago there were virtually no choices and nothing lasted. We made our own reservoirs using cotton or aquarium spongy filter pieces . Some used tea bag paper. It was a mess.


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