# Using EquiMAX to Treat Tapeworms



## casportpony

Been doing some research and think that the praziquantel dose to treat tapeworms in poultry is 10 mg/kg.

Just praziquantel is hard to find, so many people find it easier to use a horse paste with praziquantel and ivermectin.

The dose equations for treating tapeworms using Equimax as follows:
100 gram (0.1kg) bird - .1 x 10 / 140.3 = 0.007 ml per 100 grams
1000 gram (1kg) bird - 1 x 10 / 140.3 = 0.07 ml per 1000 grams
1 pound bird - 1 / 2.2 x 10 / 140.3 = 0.03 ml per pound.
5 pound bird - 5 / 2.2 x 10 / 140.3 = 0.16 ml per 5 pounds.

Praziquantel dose is 10 mg/kg and Equimax is 140.3 mg/ml praziquantel.

Give orally. Books say to repeat in 10-14 days.

Always check my math!


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## dawg53

casportpony said:


> Been doing some research and think that the praziquantel dose to treat roundworms in poultry is 10 mg/kg.
> 
> You mean "tapeworms," not "roundworms."


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> casportpony said:
> 
> 
> 
> Been doing some research and think that the praziquantel dose to treat roundworms in poultry is 10 mg/kg.
> 
> You mean "tapeworms," not "roundworms."
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct! Thanks, typo fixed.
Click to expand...


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## casportpony

Here is a sand covered worm(s) from a 12.2 pound turkey after being treated with 0.4 ml of EquiMAX.


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> Here is a sand covered worm(s) from a 12.2 pound turkey after being treated with 0.4 ml of EquiMAX.


Get enough of those and you could fry 'em up like calamari.


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## dawg53

MikeA_15 said:


> Get enough of those and you could fry 'em up like calamari.


Mmmmmmmmm calimari! I ate them cooked in olive oil in a bar/restaurant when I was in Sicily. I've had them fried as well. Also in a spanish seafood stew. Dang Mike...now I have a hankering for calimari!


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## seminole wind

I wonder if Equimax is safe for chickens/people?


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> I wonder if Equimax is safe for chickens/people?


Both medications are used in poultry, but are not "approved". Given at the amount I suggested, the ivermectin is 1.3 mg/kg, which is higher than most vets would suggest, but way less than what most people usually give.

Both medications are also used in people, though probably not a good idea to do this unless a Dr tells you to.

Equimax has the same ingredients as Zimecterin Gold, but has twice as much praziquantel, so one can give half as much. It also has a little more ivermectin than Zimecterin Gold, but not enough to make that much of a difference.

1 ml of Equimax = 18.7 mg ivermectin and 140.3 mg praziquantel
1 ml of Zimectrin Gold = 15.5 mg ivermectin and 77.5 mg praziquantel


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## seminole wind

Doesn't that have Moxidectin as well?


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Doesn't that have Moxidectin as well?


No, Equimax has only ivermectin 18.7 mg/ml and praziquantel 140.3 mg/ml

Maybe you were thinking about Quest or Quest Plus?

Quest = moxidectin 20 mg/ml
Quest Plus = moxidectin 20 mg/ml and praziquantel 125 mg/ml

Moxidectin is not as safe as ivermectin, so I would not suggest that anyone use a horse paste with moxidectin.

-Kathy


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## dawg53

I dont recommend Quest or Quest Plus for chickens. The dosage has to be exact and no room for overdose. Tolerance is low, and I think it's the same for horses if I'm not mistaken. 
Regarding chickens, it's best to stick w/ Z-Gold or Equimax, much safer.


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## MikeA_15

One can always use Wormout tabs which contain Praziquantel to target tapes. I used dosages of 2 tabs for a 4-5 lb chicken. Dose once and again in ten days.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> One can always use Wormout tabs which contain Praziquantel to target tapes. I used dosages of 2 tabs for a 4-5 lb chicken. Dose once and again in ten days.


I think they sell two types:

"Vetafarm Pigeon and Bantam Wormout Tablets are for the treatment of Thread Worm, Tapeworm, Roundworm and Caecal worm in Pigeons and Bantams only.

DIRECTIONS: 
NOT TO BE USED on birds intended for human consumption.

Give one tablet by mouth per 2kg body weight. Repeat in 8-12 weeks.

Active Constituents: per tablet: 20mg Praziquantel, 20mg Oxfendazole"

"Tablets are meant for individual treatment of pigeons. Each tablet contains 5 mg Praziquantel and 5 mg of Oxfendazole. Contains rapidly acting potent ingredients to give a complete kill of intestinal worms (roundworms, hairworms, caecal worm and tapeworms). No fasting necessary with this safe effective formula. One tablet per bird for one day. Not for birds used for human consumption."


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## MikeA_15

I've never seen the label "Bantam Wormout" but it is possible labels have changed over the last few years since I used it. Looking online I see shop called The Bird Cottage that has the Wormout 20 mg versus the 8mg I mentioned http://www.jedds.com/shop/pigeon-wormout-tablets-vetafarm/ . The problem with The Bird Cottage's listing is it is for a completely _different_ product called Tony's treasure tablets, which is not a dewormer. They need to fix their error: 
http://www.thebirdcottage.com/s-tonystreasure.asp

This is the ingredient listing for Tony's Treasure tablets:
http://www.jedds.com/shop/tonys-treasure-tablets-vetafarm/
Anyone who decides to use Wormout should pay attention to dosage of the particular type 8mg versus 20 mg (if it really exists). Many pigeon supply places sell out quickly.


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## dawg53

This is the ingredient listing for Tony's Treasure tablets:
http://www.jedds.com/shop/tonys-treasure-tablets-vetafarm/
Anyone who decides to use Wormout should pay attention to dosage of the particular type 8mg versus 20 mg (if it really exists). Many pigeon supply places sell out quickly.[/QUOTE]
WOW! Those Vetafarm tablets definitely pack a punch as far as antibacterials and antiprotozoals go. It might be worth it to order some. Definitely not a wormer lol.


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## seminole wind

dawg53 said:


> I dont recommend Quest or Quest Plus for chickens. The dosage has to be exact and no room for overdose. Tolerance is low, and I think it's the same for horses if I'm not mistaken.
> Regarding chickens, it's best to stick w/ Z-Gold or Equimax, much safer.


Yea tolerance is low.


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## casportpony

A five pound chicken would need 5.6 of these:
http://www.jedds.com/shop/pigeon-wormout-tablets-vetafarm/







PRODUCT DESCRIPTION

All wormer for pigeons.

Ingredients(Guaranteed Analysis per 100 mg) :
- Praziquantel 4mg
- Oxfendazole 8mg

Available Sizes : 100 Tabs

Directions :
Give one tablet per pigeon every six weeks.

- Storage & Availability :
Store below 30ﾰC (room temperature).
For sale in Australia and for export.


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## casportpony

A five pound chicken would need 4.54 of these:
http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/medications/worms-wormers/38-vetafarms-wormout-tablets







38 Vetafarm's Wormout Tablets

Product ID: 38

Tell A Friend
$31.95

1

Please select

100 Tablets

Tablets are meant for individual treatment of pigeons. 
Each tablet contains:
* 5 mg Praziquantel and 5 mg of Oxfendazole. * 
Contains rapidly acting potent ingredients to give a complete kill of intestinal worms (roundworms, hairworms, caecal worm and tapeworms). No fasting necessary with this safe effective formula. One tablet per bird for one day. Not for birds used for human consumption.


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## casportpony

A five pound chicken would get 1.14 of these:
http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/vetafarm_pigeon_and_bantam_wormout_tablets#.VyN7JjArJaQ







Vetafarm Pigeon and Bantam Wormout Tablets are for the treatment of Thread Worm, Tapeworm, Roundworm and Caecal worm in Pigeons and Bantams only.

DIRECTIONS: 
NOT TO BE USED on birds intended for human consumption.

Give one tablet by mouth per 2kg body weight. Repeat in 8-12 weeks.

Active Constituents: per tablet: 20mg Praziquantel, 20mg Oxfendazole

SIZE: 50 Tablets


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## dawg53

"No fasting necessary with this safe effective formula." Perhaps with small birds; pigeons, doves, etc...
I guarantee fasting 24-48 hours is very effective in killing worms in poultry when wormers are administered, especially against hard to kill tapeworms.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> This is the ingredient listing for Tony's Treasure tablets:
> http://www.jedds.com/shop/tonys-treasure-tablets-vetafarm/
> Anyone who decides to use Wormout should pay attention to dosage of the particular type 8mg versus 20 mg (if it really exists). Many pigeon supply places sell out quickly.


WOW! Those Vetafarm tablets definitely pack a punch as far as antibacterials and antiprotozoals go. It might be worth it to order some. Definitely not a wormer lol.[/QUOTE]

Composition:
+ Norfloxacin - a broad spectrum antibiotic that treats bacterial diseases, including Salmonella, E.coli etc.
+ Ronidazole - same as Ronivet, for the antiprotozoal to treat trichomonas, hexamiter, giardia.
+ Diclazuril - the coccidiostat
+ Doxycycline - as a Chlamydia treatment

Sure would like to know how much of each ingredient is in them.


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## casportpony

http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/VFW#.VyOEmjArJaQ
Wormout Tablets for dogs:
EXPORT ONLY - NOT FOR SALE TO AUSTRALIAN CUSTOMERS

Wormout is a broad spectrum all wormer for dogs. Praziquantel eliminates all tapeworms (Dipylidium caninum, Taenia spp, Echinococcus granulosis). Oxfendazole treats Roundworm species, Hookworm species and Whipworm infections. It also kills worm eggs. Available in packets of 6 tablets, or in bottles of 20, 50, 90 or 100 tablets in 3 different tablet sizes.

Available tablet sizes:

1 tab per 5kg (11lb)
Active ingredients per tab: Praziquantel 38mg, Oxfendazole 75mg

1 tab per 10kg (22lb)
Active ingredients per tab: Praziquantel 75mg, Oxfendazole 150mg

1 tab per 20kg
Active ingredients per tab: Praziquantel 100mg, Oxfendazole 450mg

Dosage: Give required dose orally or crushed in food. Treat dogs every 3 months. Bitches should be treated prior to mating and then 10 days before whelping and again 4 weeks following whelping.


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> A five pound chicken would need 5.6 of these:
> http://www.jedds.com/shop/pigeon-wormout-tablets-vetafarm/
> View attachment 20235
> 
> PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
> 
> All wormer for pigeons.
> 
> Ingredients(Guaranteed Analysis per 100 mg) :
> - Praziquantel 4mg
> - Oxfendazole 8mg
> 
> Available Sizes : 100 Tabs
> 
> Directions :
> Give one tablet per pigeon every six weeks.
> 
> - Storage & Availability :
> Store below 30ﾰC (room temperature).
> For sale in Australia and for export.


Why would you recommend 5.6 tabs at 8mg a tab of Oxfendazole when it is recommended 10 mg per kg of bird's weight? That's too high a dosage. 2.2 lbs = 1 kg, so a 4-5 lb bird would get 2 -3 tabs. I dosed just 2 tabs for 3-5 lb hens when I used it.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> Why would you recommend 5.6 tabs at 8mg a tab of Oxfendazole when it is recommended 10 mg per kg of bird's weight? That's too high a dosage. 2.2 lbs = 1 kg, so a 4-5 lb bird would get 2 -3 tabs. I dosed just 2 tabs for 3-5 lb hens when I used it.


2x the dose is probably fine, but I would research it first. Think about all the times people have given their birds ivermectin/praziquantel paste... each time they do they are giving quite a bit more ivermectin than is usually suggested.


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## casportpony

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2790437
Br Vet J. 1989 Sep-Oct;145(5):458-61.
Anticestodal action of oxfendazole on Raillietina tetragona in experimentally infected chickens.
Nurelhuda IE, Elowni EE, Hassan T.
Abstract
Oxfendazole was tested against Raillietina tetragona in experimentally infected chickens using single oral doses of 20, 10, 7.5, 5, and 2.5 mg/kg body weight. The minimal dose of the drug which produced 100% efficacy against immature worms was 10 mg/kg whereas the same effect on the mature parasite was obtained with 7.5 mg/kg. Doses lower than these significantly reduce worm burdens. *The compound appears to be safe for chickens and a dose of 20 mg/kg (twice the recommended dose) produced no untoward clinical reactions.*
PMID: 2790437 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## casportpony

For those that are curious... a pigeon weighs about 500 grams, so the amount I suggested is in line with this:
http://www.jedds.com/shop/pigeon-wormout-tablets-vetafarm/
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION

All wormer for pigeons.

Ingredients(Guaranteed Analysis per 100 mg) :
- Praziquantel 4mg
- Oxfendazole 8mg

Available Sizes : 100 Tabs

Directions :
Give one tablet per pigeon every six weeks.

- Storage & Availability :
Store below 30ﾰC (room temperature).
For sale in Australia and for export.


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> 2x the dose is probably fine, but I would research it first. Think about all the times people have given their birds ivermectin/praziquantel paste... each time they do they are giving quite a bit more ivermectin than is usually suggested.


I have researched it and it is best to follow veterinary recommendations of 10mg per 2.2 lbs of bird with oxfendazole. I wouldn't compare it to ivermectin. I don't use ivermectin for birds and neither should anyone.
1. It isn't effective for use as an anthelmintic in avian species.
2. It isn't effective against mites or lice on avian species.
3. The amount used in order to achieve the results desired would cause death to the bird.
I'm sure someone will chime in claiming how it is recommended by all sorts of sales people from pigeon shops to poultry supply houses, and what great results they've had using it because their birds have no worms or mites. I know it is a load of bull by experimenting with it myself and raising birds for 30+ years.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> I have researched it and it is best to follow veterinary recommendations of 10mg per 2.2 lbs of bird with oxfendazole. I wouldn't compare it to ivermectin. I don't use ivermectin for birds and neither should anyone.
> 1. It isn't effective for use as an anthelmintic in avian species.
> 2. It isn't effective against mites or lice on avian species.
> 3. The amount used in order to achieve the results desired would cause death to the bird.
> I'm sure someone will chime in claiming how it is recommended by all sorts of sales people from pigeon shops to poultry supply houses, and what great results they've had using it because their birds have no worms or mites. I know it is a load of bull by experimenting with it myself and raising birds for 30+ years.


Not a load of bull... Peafowl people use ivermectin at about 1mg/kg and it *does* actually treat lice. I was doubtful, because I tried it before at .4 mg/kg and it did not work, but a few weeks ago I tried using a little more, and on the with the four I used it on, lice were gone in 24-48 hours. This four were three chickens and one peacock. Still no lice, so I am 100% sure that it worked on them.

Next time I do it I'll take pictures so you can see that it was effective.

As far as using it as a wormer, I'm don't think it's an effective wormer.

Some people want to treat for tapes, but don't want to order something online, so for them their only affordable choice is Equimax or Zimectrin Gold.

FWIW, I just weighed one of my pigeons and it's 350 grams, and I would have no issues giving it 8 mg of oxfendazole.


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## MikeA_15

In case anyone wants to consider using Macrocyclic lactones on their birds for endoparasites or ectoparasites it will not remedy nor control them:
http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2402&Itemid=2667
_Macrocyclic lactones__ (e.g. __ivermectin__) either as __feed additives__ or as *tablets* are available for poultry in a few countries, mainly for fighting cocks. However, at the therapeutic dose they are unlikely to control poultry lice. In most countries they are not approved for poultry at all: neither for layers nor for broilers, due to excessive residues in eggs and/or meat._

http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2540&Itemid=2816
_Macrocyclic lactones __(e.g. __ivermectin__, __moxidectin__), whether for oral delivery or as *injectables* do not control northern fowl mites: the effective dose would be very close to the dose that is toxic for the birds. Moreover, in most countries macrocyclic lactones are no approved for use on poultry._

If mites aren't affected, then lice won't since they do not feed on blood.
I guarantee ivermectin is a waste of time and unhealthy for birds.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> In case anyone wants to consider using Macrocyclic lactones on their birds for endoparasites or ectoparasites it will not remedy nor control them:
> http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2402&Itemid=2667
> _Macrocyclic lactones__ (e.g. __ivermectin__) either as __feed additives__ or as *tablets* are available for poultry in a few countries, mainly for fighting cocks. However, at the therapeutic dose they are unlikely to control poultry lice. In most countries they are not approved for poultry at all: neither for layers nor for broilers, due to excessive residues in eggs and/or meat._
> 
> I guarantee it is a waste of time and unhealthy for birds.


Peafowl breeders have been using it for years, and their birds live well into their teens.

The "therapeutic dose" I think is 0.2 mg/kg to 0.4 mg/kg, which I tried before and it did not have an effect on the lice. Next time I try using it I will give a little less... will do this until I figure out the minimum effective dose to treat lice. Did you know that .5 mg/kg to 1 mg/kg is given to pigeons?


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> Peafowl breeders have been using it for years, and their birds live well into their teens.
> 
> The "therapeutic dose" I think is 0.2 mg/kg to 0.4 mg/kg, which I tried before and it did not have an effect on the lice. Next time I try using it I will give a little less... will do this until I figure out the minimum effective dose to treat lice. Did you know that .5 mg/kg to 1 mg/kg is given to pigeons?


They give it to them in ignorance and for their own false sense of security. The companies producing the product people buy make out fine though. Just like the marketing of DE. Worthless products marketed to people for the almighty $.


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## MikeA_15

dawg53 said:


> "No fasting necessary with this safe effective formula." Perhaps with small birds; pigeons, doves, etc...
> I guarantee fasting 24-48 hours is very effective in killing worms in poultry when wormers are administered, especially against hard to kill tapeworms.


When I deworm, I prefer to do it in the early morning on an empty crop before they get off the roost. About an hour after that when the sun rises, I set out feed.


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## Nm156

I noticed this sticker on the last bag of DE I purchased.


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## dawg53

MikeA_15 said:


> When I deworm, I prefer to do it in the early morning on an empty crop before they get off the roost. About an hour after that when the sun rises, I set out feed.


I pretty much do the same Mike. I get out there early when it's dark, usually 4am. Snatch them off the roost and dose them, put them back on the roost. I'm done in about 15 minutes only because I have 2 coops and only 6 birds. Then I let them out at sunrise, a couple hours later. 
Depending on the type of wormer, it may require only one day or several days in a row I do this. I do it monthly.
The exception is tapeworms. I DO withhold feed for 24 hours. Fortunately I havnt had to deal with them since moving down here to Florida and I know this area is ripe with them (knocks on wood.)


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## dawg53

DE is a waste of money unless there's a moisture problem in feed bags after opening them.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> They give it to them in ignorance and for their own false sense of security. The companies producing the product people buy make out fine though. Just like the marketing of DE. Worthless products marketed to people for the almighty $.


Perhaps all of us peafowl breeders are ignorant? I will continue to use ivermectin to treat lice, because it *does* work, and I will try to figure out what the minimum effective does is. Personally, I'd much rather give a little ivermectin than deal with dusting a bird.


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> Perhaps all of us peafowl breeders are ignorant? I will continue to use ivermectin to treat lice, because it *does* work, and I will try to figure out what the minimum effective does is. Personally, I'd much rather give a little ivermectin than deal with dusting a bird.


It is not an insult to you or people who keep peafowl, it is just a fact that ivermectin use in birds is done in ignorance. My folks had peafowl, ducks, geese, chickens and turkey all while I grew up and still do. They never had the need for ivermectin, and my experience with it myself proved to me it is not only ineffective, the residuals and risks make it unworthy also.

More facts about ivermectin:

On *poultry*, ivermectin at the therapeutic dose is also *ineffective* against bloodsucking poultry mites such as *red poultry mites* (_Dermanyssus gallinae_), *northern fowl mites* (_Ornithonyssus sylviarum_), and *tropical fowl mites* (_Ornithonyssus bursa_), as well as againstsoft ticks (e.g. _Argas_ spp, _Ornithodorus_ spp, _Otobius_ spp, etc.)
http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2449&Itemid=2716

Macrocyclic lactones (e.g. ivermectin) either as feed additives or as *tablets* are available for poultry in a few countries, mainly for fighting cocks. However, at the therapeutic dose they are unlikely to control poutry lice.
http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2402&Itemid=2667

*http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2344&Itemid=2996*

*Toxic Symptoms caused by Ivermectin Poisoning
*

 *General symptoms
*


_The symptoms of ivermectin poisoning are the consequence of an excessive concentration of the molecule in the CNS (Central Nervous System) and the subsequent increase of GABA activity. Ivermectin stimulates the release of the GABA neurotransmitter (gamma-Aminobutyric acid) in the presynaptic neurons and enhances its postsynaptic binding to its receptors. This increases the flow of chloride ions in the neurons, which causes hyperpolarization of the cell membranes. This on its turn disturbs normal nervous functions and causes a general blockage of the stimulus mechanisms in the CNS. The resulting cerebral and cortical deficits include mainly_ 
_*Ataxia* (uncoordinated movements)_ 
_*Hypermetria* (excessive or disproportionate movements)_ 
*Disorientation* 
_*Hyperesthesia* (excessive reaction to tactile stimuli)_ 
_*Tremor *(uncoordinated trembling or shaking movements)_ 
_*Mydriasis* (dilatation of the pupils); in cattle and cats also *myosis* (contraction of the pupils)_ 
_*Recumbency* (inability to rise)_ 
*Depression* 
*Blindness* 
_*Coma *(persistence unconsciousness)_



_As a general rule, *young animals* are more sensitive to overdosing, react stronger and prognosis is worse than for adult animals. _ 
_Besides erroneous dosing, overdosing can occur due to *excessive licking* after __pour-on__ delivery to livestock (usually licking of other animals in the same herd) or __spot-on__ delivery to dogs and cats (particularly in cats due to intense grooming)._ 
_Frequent *administration errors* *in* *livestock* include intramuscular or intravenous instead of subcutaneous injection. This results in excessive blood levels. Another frequent error is repeated unintended treatment in short intervals due to animal mistaking._ 
_A frequent *administration error in dogs* is partial administrating to small dogs of *tablets* or __spot-ons__ approved for large animals._ 
_A frequent *administration error in cats* is partial administration to cats of *tablets* or __spot-ons__ approved only for dogs._
 *Poisoning Symptoms in Dogs
*


_In dogs *without the MDR-1* gene defect, the dominant poisoning symptom is* extreme mydriasis* (dilatation of the pupils) together with incomplete and deregulated pupillary reflex. Mydriasis in both eyes is the most sensitive indicator of ivermectin intoxication and the most frequent symptom in dogs. _ 
_At higher doses and in dogs with the MDR-1 gene defect other symptoms have been observed as well: weakness, lethargy, hypothermia (too low body temperature), hypersalivation (drooling), vomit, difficult breathing, behavioral disturbances, confusion, seizure, death._ 
_Symptoms develop usually 5 to 24 hours after treatment and can last for several days until coma. As a general rule, poisoning is more serious and prognosis is worse if the symptoms develop faster._
 *Poisoning Symptoms in Cats
*


_Poisoning symptoms in cats resemble those in dogs. Additional symptoms reported are diarrhea, anorexia (lack of appetite), posterior paralysis, disturbed or lacking reflexes._ 
_As a general rule neurological symptoms in cats tend to recede in the days following poisoning and most cats recover within 2 to 4 weeks._
 *Poisoning Symptoms in Cattle*


_Most frequent symptoms in cattle are general depression of the CNS (Central Nervous System), including deafness and ataxia (uncoordinated movements)._ 
_Calves can show poisoning symptoms at doses only 3 x the therapeutic dose. They include ataxia (uncoordinated movements), hypermetria (excessive or disproportionate movements) and tremor (uncoordinated trembling or shaking movements). Colics have also been reported. Deaths cannot be excluded._
 *Poisoning Symptoms in Sheep, Swine, Goats and Horses*


_Those general symptoms previously described._
 *Birds*


_In birds intoxicated with ivermectin lethargy and anorexia (lack of appetite) have been reported._


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## dawg53

Kathy. You previously mentioned that increasing ivermectin dosages kills lice in peas. Ivermectin stays in the blood for 28 to 30 days. What kind of internal poisoning is occuring that you dont know about? It's the same for dogs with their monthly pills. So much ivermectin (or derivitive) instead of one pill, give 2 pills...it'll work twice as good, right? Wrongo bongo.
Come on Kathy, you've stated that your anal about dosages. 
Time to look at other alternatives.


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## casportpony

I've been giving ivermectin to horses since it came out, so I'm well aware of what the possible side effects are. When you say that people are using ivermectin out of ignorance, you are directing that comment towards me, so I do take that as an insult.

As for the parasitepedia site, don't believe everything you read... go through all the poultry worms listed here: http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2655&Itemid=2933 and you'll see that it claims ivemectin is effective against most of them. Maybe it's effective against some, but I know enough people that have lost birds while using ivermectin, so I wouldn't rely on it as a wormer. Lice, yes. One dose and 24-48 hours later these lice are gone:

















I owe many people an apology, because for years I've been saying that ivermectin won't treat poultry lice because they don't suck blood, but I was wrong, it did treat lice on four of mine.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> Kathy. You previously mentioned that increasing ivermectin dosages kills lice in peas. Ivermectin stays in the blood for 28 to 30 days. What kind of internal poisoning is occuring that you dont know about? It's the same for dogs with their monthly pills. So much ivermectin (or derivitive) instead of one pill, give 2 pills...it'll work twice as good, right? Wrongo bongo.
> Come on Kathy, you've stated that your anal about dosages.
> Time to look at other alternatives.


Jim, aren't you the one that says to give a pea sized amount of Zimectrin Gold to treat tapes?


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## seminole wind

Most times I think it's better to use sevin or poultry dust to kill external bugs and a wormer to kill worms. I feel like those products that are known to kill both are used at a larger dose. I think I'd rather used 2 different methods than use a higher dose of something to kill everything.

Yesterday, I decided to wash my horse's tail. All soaped up and what do I see? A flea. But I had pet the lady's dog walking to get my horse.

I don't think anyone's wrong or ignorant when the chemicals are "not for use" on chickens. Or not approved. There has not been enough valid research done especially with "one dose fits all" products and if they work.


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> I've been giving ivermectin to horses since it came out, so I'm well aware of what the possible side effects are. When you say that people are using ivermectin out of ignorance, you are directing that comment towards me, so I do take that as an insult..


 Horses aren't birds. If you are aware of the risks using ivermectin, yet continue to use it for avian species as others do, then that is ignorant in my opinion and according to any poultry science department worth it's salt.



casportpony said:


> As for the parasitepedia site, don't believe everything you read... go through all the poultry worms listed here: http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2655&Itemid=2933 and you'll see that it claims ivemectin is effective against most of them. Maybe it's effective against some, but I know enough people that have lost birds while using ivermectin, so I wouldn't rely on it as a wormer. Lice, yes. One dose and 24-48 hours later these lice are gone


 The site isn't perfect but time and again the evidence resides in the FACT that there are more effective/safer compounds and methods used to remove and prevent endoparasites and ectoparasites. Those who bother to research realize ivermectin is ineffective as an anthelmintic or pesticide for avian species. You should know better.

http://www.hrpub.org/download/20160229/AZB1-11403634.pdf
 _"All the physiological, hematological and hormonal changes which occur as the result of helminthosis are more prominent in commercial poultry than the backyard poultry. However, birds treated with Piperazine citrate showed beneficial effect on physiological, hematological and hormonal profile as compared to those treated with ivermectin. On the basis of the results of the present study it is concluded that Piperazine is comparatively a better drug than ivermectin to control worm infestation."_

You sure don't see any recommendation of Ivermectin for lice/mites here either, and UC Davis Division of Agriculture and Natural Resources has an upstanding national reputation.
http://anrcatalog.ucanr.edu/pdf/8162.pdf

I haven't had mites or lice on a bird since 2006 due to my methods and I don't use Ivermectin. If you are seeing lice on a regular basis, you may want to clean up the housing areas and start a regiment of premise treatment.
 


casportpony said:


> I owe many people an apology, because for years I've been saying that ivermectin won't treat poultry lice because they don't suck blood, but I was wrong, it did treat lice on four of mine.


 The risks of Ivermectin on the bird's health outweighs the benefits, and it should NEVER be recommended for those planning on raising birds for meat or eggs.


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## casportpony

This "higher" ivermectin dose I'm using is 1/2 of what people give when the give a pea sized amount of Zimecterin Gold to an averaged sized laying hen.


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## dawg53

casportpony said:


> Jim, aren't you the one that says to give a pea sized amount of Zimectrin Gold to treat tapes?


Absolutely. I recommend Zimectrin Gold or Equimax for tapeworms. Not for the ivermectin but for the praziquantel to kill the tapeworms. There's NOTHING ELSE readily available or cheap enough to kill tapeworms in birds. All feed stores I've seen carry both products. Valbazen is more expensive and not readily available. ONE regular pea size amount of ivermectin/praziquantel in Z-Gold or equimax is not harmful to standard size birds. Repeated high doses would be.
BTW: I know you havnt had the opportunity to treat tapeworms. Be happy you havnt.


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## MikeA_15

dawg53 said:


> Absolutely. I recommend Zimectrin Gold or Equimax for tapeworms. Not for the ivermectin but for the praziquantel to kill the tapeworms. There's NOTHING ELSE readily available or cheap enough to kill tapeworms in birds. All feed stores I've seen carry both products. Valbazen is more expensive and not readily available. ONE regular pea size amount of ivermectin/praziquantel in Z-Gold or equimax is not harmful to standard size birds. Repeated high doses would be.
> BTW: I know you havnt had the opportunity to treat tapeworms. Be happy you havnt.


I realize it is more convenient since most feed stores have Z-gold on the shelves if tapeworms are suddenly found. There are gamefowl dewormers containing Praziquantel like Astig caplets (100 for $40) and Tape Terminator ($16 for 60 ml @ .5 to 1 ml per bird). Neither of those contain ivermectin/abamectin. Fortunately I haven't seen tapes in many years. Around here cecal, capillary, and roundworms are generally the problem.


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## dawg53

MikeA_15 said:


> Fortunately I haven't seen tapes in many years. Around here cecal, capillary, and roundworms are generally the problem.


Unfortunately we get the whole 9 yards down here. I know some folks around here that have dealt with eyeworm and gapeworm on top of the rest of those worms. Then again, they dont worm monthly like I do.

The Astig powder has the same ingredients as the Tapeworm Terminator. The Tape Terminator says it has a 3 month withdrawal period. I know that levamisole has a 7 day withdrawal period, not sure with praziquantel, I always waited 14 days after the last dosage to eat eggs anyway.
Either would be great for roosters or old non egg producing hens since it's a 3 month withdrawal.
I think Droncit for dogs would be my next choice. I'd just have to ask my vet what the dosage would be for a 5 pound bird and go from there. Easy peasy.


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## MikeA_15

dawg53 said:


> Unfortunately we get the whole 9 yards down here. I know some folks around here that have dealt with eyeworm and gapeworm on top of the rest of those worms. Then again, they dont worm monthly like I do.
> 
> The Astig powder has the same ingredients as the Tapeworm Terminator. The Tape Terminator says it has a 3 month withdrawal period. I know that levamisole has a 7 day withdrawal period, not sure with praziquantel, I always waited 14 days after the last dosage to eat eggs anyway.
> Either would be great for roosters or old non egg producing hens since it's a 3 month withdrawal.
> I think Droncit for dogs would be my next choice. I'd just have to ask my vet what the dosage would be for a 5 pound bird and go from there. Easy peasy.


Astig also comes in tablet form.
That recommendation for 3 months is a stretch. I'd recommend the standard 2 week waiting period. Droncit/Drontal is a good product but at $5-6 a tab, it would be quite expensive to deworm 2-4x a year with a dozen or more birds. I like Pyrantel more than Levamisole as it is easier on the intestinal tract. Pyrantel tartrate has been shown to be more effective on worms in chickens than Pyrantel pamoate. Niclosamide is an anthelmintic not mentioned often but is common in Arvet-Chem and a few other foreign gamefowl dewormers. It is harder on the digestive system than praziquantel but also effective in removing Cestodes. Unlike praziquantel, Niclosamide has also been found to be effective on staph bacteria.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> Unfortunately we get the whole 9 yards down here. I know some folks around here that have dealt with eyeworm and gapeworm on top of the rest of those worms. Then again, they dont worm monthly like I do.
> 
> The Astig powder has the same ingredients as the Tapeworm Terminator. The Tape Terminator says it has a 3 month withdrawal period. I know that levamisole has a 7 day withdrawal period, not sure with praziquantel, I always waited 14 days after the last dosage to eat eggs anyway.
> Either would be great for roosters or old non egg producing hens since it's a 3 month withdrawal.
> I think Droncit for dogs would be my next choice. I'd just have to ask my vet what the dosage would be for a 5 pound bird and go from there. Easy peasy.


*Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook says : "For common tapeworms in chickens 10 mg/kg". *

Five pound bird - 5 pounds / 2.2 x 10 mg = 22.73 mg

A five pound bird would need ~23 mg praziquantel, which is one *cat* Droncit. Dog Droncit is 34 mg or 68 mg.

FYI, a pea sized amount of Zimectrin Gold = ~0.3 ml = 23.25 mg praziquantel and 4.65 mg ivermectin.

More dosing info:

















Cheaper than 34 mg Droncit for Dogs


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## dawg53

You're right about droncit being expensive for a flock. It comes in an injectable form too, I didnt know that. LOL, I wont be doing injectables for tapes if my birds get them. "Nic" has more side effects, praziquantel is safer according to what I read. 
I've never used levamisole, just never had a need for it when other wormers are available. 
One of our feed stores here sells droncit pills OTC. I think it's about $1.50 a pill for a 20 pound dog, maybe 23 grams per pill but not sure. I take my dog to the vet next week for annual check up. I'll ask him about the droncit for a 5lb chicken and post it.


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## MikeA_15

The problem with Fish tapes capsules is they are 170 mg each capsule. At $37 for a 30 count bottle is also overpriced when something like Astig is $40+ for 100 tabs and is more of a broad spectrum dewormer. I guess one could use the Fish Tapes powder, but many of us realize direct dosage is best since birds may not eat enough mixed in feed or given in water when the weather is colder and birds don't drink as much.

_Correction Note_: Fish Tapes Forte is 170 mg Praziquantel. Fish Tapes (regular) is 34 mg. The one listed as regular is what would be a safe dose for a 5+ lb chicken.


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## dawg53

Thanks for the chart Kathy.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> The problem with Fish tapes capsules is they are 170 mg each capsule. At $37 for a 30 count bottle is also overpriced when something like Astig is $40+ for 100 tabs and is more of a broad spectrum dewormer. I guess one could use the Fish Tapes powder, but many of us realize direct dosage is best since birds may not eat enough mixed in feed or given in water when the weather is colder and birds don't drink as much.


The capsules I saw were 34 mg, not 170 mg.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> Thanks for the chart Kathy.


You're welcome.


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> The capsules I saw were 34 mg, not 170 mg.


You are correct. The Fish Tapes _Forte_ is 170 mg, not the regular.


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## casportpony

Fish Tape Forte's are the 170 mg capsules. Without the word "Forte" are only 34 mg.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> You're right about droncit being expensive for a flock. It comes in an injectable form too, I didnt know that. LOL, I wont be doing injectables for tapes if my birds get them. "Nic" has more side effects, praziquantel is safer according to what I read.
> I've never used levamisole, just never had a need for it when other wormers are available.
> One of our feed stores here sells droncit pills OTC. I think it's about $1.50 a pill for a 20 pound dog, maybe 23 grams per pill but not sure. I take my dog to the vet next week for annual check up. I'll ask him about the droncit for a 5lb chicken and post it.


$1.50 for a 23 mg pill is a pretty good price. Think Pets_Mart sells them at 3 for $15 or more.


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## casportpony

Equimax is $10 from Valley Vet - that's $10 for 900 mg of praziquantel
Zimectin Gold is $11 from Valley Vet - that's $11 for 570 mg of praziquantel
Fish Tapes 10 count of 34 mg from Valley Vet are $18 - that's $18 for 340 mg of praziquantel


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## seminole wind

Okay, so what's the best cocktail, dose, and retail source of how to kill all types of worms?


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Okay, so what's the best cocktail, dose, and retail source of how to kill all types of worms?


Do you mean making your own or buying one?


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## casportpony

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/medications/worms-wormers/36-vetafarms-wormout-gel-100ml-cc
100 ml bottle has 2000 mg praziquantel for $21
250 ml bottle has 5000 mg praziquantel for $34
1000 ml bottle has 20000 mg praziquantel $116

Praziquantel 20 mg/ml
Also has oxfendazole 20 mg/ml
Oral dose for this product is 0.23 ml per pound.

As always, please check my math


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## dawg53

Hands down valbazen is the best broad spectrum wormer available. Treating for tapeworms requires withholding feed and increased dosages for 7 to 10 days. It kills all known types of worms that chickens get including flukes, as well as treating lower forms of protozoa.


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## casportpony

dawg53 said:


> Hands down valbazen is the best broad spectrum wormer available. Treating for tapeworms requires withholding feed and increased dosages for 7 to 10 days. It kills all known types of worms that chickens get including flukes, as well as treating lower forms of protozoa.


So how much and how often for a 5 pound hen if you want to treat tapes?


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## MikeA_15

I've used a number of different ones over the years. Since I prefer tabs, capsules I use ones commonly known among gamefowl enthusiasts. 
I use Galliverm Super caplets (Albendazole 24 mg-Fenbendazole 18mg). From a 2006 study I noticed Albendazole dose for hens at 5,10, and 20 mg per 2.2 lbs removed 73.1, 73.1, and 96.2% of (_R. cesticillus_) tapeworms. So 20 mg is the minimum one would use to treat tapes, and perhaps 2-3 days in a row. Another is Trifen Avicola tabs which has 70 mg Albendazole each caplet. Perhaps one dose would wipe out tapes. The caplets are larger and not meant for bantams.

When I use an alternate wormer, I've used Vormal for LF(not Bantams) which has Piperazine 300mg ,Levamisole 110 mg, and Albendazole 12 mg.


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## MikeA_15

dawg53 said:


> Hands down valbazen is the best broad spectrum wormer available. Treating for tapeworms requires withholding feed and increased dosages for 7 to 10 days. It kills all known types of worms that chickens get including flukes, as well as treating lower forms of protozoa.


 Albendazole gets the job done. I only dose in the morning while it is still dark, the bird's crops are empty and they are relaxed. Using my Petzl headlamp makes it easy since I don't run electricity in my coops. I give them an hour to drink vitamin-probiotic water and then set out feed for them.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> I've used a number of different ones over the years. Since I prefer tabs, capsules I use ones commonly known among gamefowl enthusiasts.
> I use Galliverm Super caplets (Albendazole 24 mg-Fenbendazole 18mg). *From a 2006 study I noticed Albendazole dose for hens at 5,10, and 20 mg per 2.2 lbs removed 73.1, 73.1, and 96.2% of (R. cesticillus) tapeworms. So 20 mg is the minimum one would use to treat tapes, and perhaps 2-3 days in a row. *Another is Trifen Avicola tabs which has 70 mg Albendazole each caplet. Perhaps one dose would wipe out tapes. The caplets are larger and not meant for bantams.
> 
> When I use an alternate wormer, I've used Vormal for LF(not Bantams) which has Piperazine 300mg ,Levamisole 110 mg, and Albendazole 12 mg.


I've also seen that study, but I think dawg53 is suggesting that it should be given at a dose higher than 20 mg/kg (2.2 pounds), and it should be given for 7-10 days.


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> I've also seen that study, but I think dawg53 is suggesting that it should be given at a dose higher than 20 mg/kg (2.2 pounds), and it should be given for 7-10 days.


Right. I do know that the 70 mg Trifen Avicola (Albendazole) directions state:
_Indications:
For infestations caused by parasites including gastroenteric and lung
roundworms and *tapeworms* (Heterakis gallinae, and H. gallinarum, *Raillietina spp*., Ascaridia galli,
Syngamus trachea and capillaria obsignata)._

_*Young chickens*: 1 tablet a day for three days.
*Chickens over 12 weeks*: 2 tablets a day for three days.
*Hens*: 3 tablets a day for three days._
_At the discretion of the veterinarian can repeat the dose at 30 days after
first treatment._


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> Right. I do know that the 70 mg Trifen Avicola (Albendazole) directions state:
> _Indications:
> For infestations caused by parasites including gastroenteric and lung
> roundworms and *tapeworms* (Heterakis gallinae, and H. gallinarum, *Raillietina spp*., Ascaridia galli,
> Syngamus trachea and capillaria obsignata)._
> 
> _*Young chickens*: 1 tablet a day for three days.
> *Chickens over 12 weeks*: 2 tablets a day for three days.
> *Hens*: 3 tablets a day for three days._
> _At the discretion of the veterinarian can repeat the dose at 30 days after
> first treatment._


So that's the same as this:

Young chickens: 1 tablet a day for three days = *.61 ml Valbazen*
Chickens over 12 weeks: 2 tablets a day for three days. = *1.23 ml Valbazen *
Hens: 3 tablets a day for three days. = *1.85 ml Valbazen*


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## casportpony

You forgot turkeys and peafowl. 
http://www.arandalab.com.mx/aranda/preview/pdf/Trifen_Avicola.pdf


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> So that's the same as this:
> 
> Young chickens: 1 tablet a day for three days = *.61 ml Valbazen*
> Chickens over 12 weeks: 2 tablets a day for three days. = *1.23 ml Valbazen *
> Hens: 3 tablets a day for three days. = *1.85 ml Valbazen*


Yup. The dosages are close. It would depend on whether one chose to use caps or liquid with a syringe. I used to dose with Valbazen exactly .5cc for a Standard. The safety margin is high with Albendazole and Fenbendazole. Both are safe and effective for most worms.


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## casportpony

MikeA_15 said:


> Yup. The dosages are close. It would depend on whether one chose to use caps or liquid with a syringe. I used to dose with Valbazen exactly .5cc for a Standard. The safety margin is high with Albendazole and Fenbendazole. Both are safe and effective for most worms.


Lol. Close? I think the amounts can't get much closer. Of course I could have made an error, but I think you will find them a little better than close.


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## dawg53

When using valbazen liquid for tapeworms only, I withhold feed for a minimum of 24 hours. I dose KNOWN tapeworm infected standard size birds 1cc orally. I do not let the birds eat for at least 4 hours after dosing. I then feed them a little at a time for the rest of the afternoon. If this isnt done after withholding feed, hungry birds will gorge themselves causing impacted crop or gizzard. 
Then on the third day, I withhold their feed again for 24 hours, and repeat the process. Then repeat the whole procedure for the final time on the 6th day. 
Doing it this way with valbazen works getting rid of tapes.


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## MikeA_15

casportpony said:


> Lol. Close? I think the amounts can't get much closer. Of course I could have made an error, but I think you will find them a little better than close.


Don't get punchy over that dang it  You made a good point. The only thing I dislike about Trifen Avicola is the size of the caps. To make it slide down easy, I dip each one in olive oil before giving it to the bird. It is still easier to me than a syringe.


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## dawg53

MikeA_15 said:


> Don't get punchy over that dang it  You made a good point. The only thing I dislike about Trifen Avicola is the size of the caps. To make it slide down easy, I dip each one in olive oil before giving it to the bird. It is still easier to me than a syringe.


Force feeding them a wormer; whether it's pills, capsules, liquids etc, guarantees proper worming, no guesswork about it. Not like solubles put in water for them to drink.


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## MikeA_15

dawg53 said:


> Force feeding them a wormer; whether it's pills, capsules, liquids etc, guarantees proper worming, no guesswork about it. Not like solubles put in water for them to drink.


That is for sure. Water solubles would effective with prolonged dosage, but I don't believe in prolonging a treatment for many days out of the year to help intestinal worms develop resistance quicker. That's what consistent small amounts do.


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