# Downed Rooster - No Idea Why



## WeeLittleChicken (Aug 31, 2012)

When I opened up the barn this morning everyone rushed out just like usual but there in the back, oddly in the middle of the floor, was one of my Cream Legbar roosters, just lying there like he was sleeping. He's a feisty rooster, doesn't like being bothered, so when I approached and he didn't immediately get up I knew something was very wrong. I picked him up. No weight loss, comb is nice and red except for what I think are just some scrappin' wounds. His breathing was slightly strained but he only started doing that after I held him. He's moving SUPER slowly. He can stand and walk but it's like he's going through molasses. He's also shaking his head and acting a wee bit tipsy. I have no idea what's going on.... he was fine at lock up last night. I am wondering if maybe he sustained a head injury or something?? I mean the location I found him in - in the middle of the floor- is also really weird. He doesn't sleep there. No one does. He does free range though so I guess I can't totally rule out accidental toxins... I don't know, it's very weird. I have him quarantined in a tractor next to the house now. He has no interest in the food and water. I don't think he's going to pull through... but I will give it a try. Granted I don't know what I am supposed to be trying...


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Except for the couple of spots I see on his comb, I don't think the rest of that dark area is from injury. He could have pox.

What kind of movement are you getting out of his legs and feet? 

What's weird is that he doesn't look like he's in any distress. Usually you can see it in the eyes.


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## WeeLittleChicken (Aug 31, 2012)

He seems plenty alert. His eyes are bright and he's paying attention. His movement is fairly normal, just reeeeeeally slow. Like comically slow. He seems to be able to feel his toes and legs. He only gets up when I prod though. 

I've never had anyone come down with the pox as far as I know. I should go check the other combs but I don't think there's anything out there. I don't even know what pox does. I will go look it up.


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## WeeLittleChicken (Aug 31, 2012)

Too late. He's passed. Whatever this was it killed him FAST. There was no wasting or other symptoms, he was just discovered and then dead with in the hour. I looked for lesions in the throat. Nothing. I took a better photo of his comb. I will do a necropsy but I doubt i will find anything.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

He could have had cardiac issues. I saw it once with one of mine, if it was very hot outside he'd struggle but if I moved him in to a climate controlled environment he would bounce back. His heart issues finally got to the point that even a cooler spot did not give him back what he needed.

What is different is that your boy's comb stayed red where mine turned quite dark when he was struggling.


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## WeeLittleChicken (Aug 31, 2012)

You're good. I opened him up and his abdominal cavity was FILLED with yellow fluid. His heart sack looked like a balloon - I didn't even know what it was until I cut it open to find the heart - same story with the liver. The heart is enlarged, pallid, oddly-shaped, and very flaccid. Hard to explain but usually heart feel very rubbery and tough - this one just feels like a deflated balloon. His liver was also a mess - surrounded by yellow fluid and pale. I am always shocked how these birds can hide such massive issues. This was one of two younger roosters who I watch spar and do stupid teenage things every day. They seemed so robust... but it is a hot day. A really hot day. I will give him that. 

I took photos of the heart and liver but I don't know if I can post them? Perhaps with a graphic warning? I can't seem to edit the title to put that...


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## Nm156 (May 16, 2015)

You can post them.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

It sounds like a heart problem to me too, as well as water belly.
For future reference; you can put your ear up against the side of a chicken and listen for a "clicking" sound which indicates a heart valve problem. If you hear "whistling," it's a ruptured air sac. Wheezing, gurgling, rales are respiratory issues.
I'm sorry you lost him, he was a good looking roo.


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## WeeLittleChicken (Aug 31, 2012)

OK, just didn't want to shock anyone...

This is the front of the heart. You can sort of see how deflated it looks. Clearly there was something wrong here to even expand like that. 









The back of the heart looks pretty typical.










I took a picture of it in my hand for size comparison. I have seen larger hearts but it is a little bigger than normal. This was a 6 month old Cream Legbar rooster who didn't show any stunted growth or anything like that.










This is part of the liver. Livers should be a deep wine color. This one definitely isn't healthy looking. The "skin" around it was some sort of fluid filled sack - again, like I have never seen before. Very weird. Think the poor thing was working over time.


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## WeeLittleChicken (Aug 31, 2012)

Sigh. This was a good bird. Going to miss him. He kept everyone on their toes around here. I guess this means I should be looking out for the Cream Legbars now. If I have another one crop up like this I am going to have to consider this a dead-end line... Once could just be coincidence, twice usually means there's a problem and I am not for passing on these issues.


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

So sorry for your loss! Thanks for posting the pictures. {{{{ hugs }}}}


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I wish I knew what the yellow was. He looks like he had congestive heart failure. I am out of guesses


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## WeeLittleChicken (Aug 31, 2012)

That's OK. I am guessing he had something wrong with his heart and it escalated to the rest of his abdominal cavity. Never did find out where all the yellow was coming from. It was just a downpour. Didn't know you could fit that much fluid in such a small space. That couldn't have made it easy for any of his other organs to work...


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## casportpony (Aug 22, 2015)

WeeLittleChicken said:


> That's OK. I am guessing he had something wrong with his heart and it escalated to the rest of his abdominal cavity. Never did find out where all the yellow was coming from. It was just a downpour. Didn't know you could fit that much fluid in such a small space. That couldn't have made it easy for any of his other organs to work...


I drained about 1000 ml out of a hen a the feed store a few weeks ago... it's amazing how much fluid they can have.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

If I had not experienced it for myself I wouldn't have even ventured a guess at cardiac. Like I said, the difference was the comb. But my guy actually fell off the roost, thankfully it wasn't that high. And he was a good bit older than yours, years older. 

Have you opened the heart on that one side? Seeing a round heart like that is usually congestive heart failure. 

I wouldn't broom the breed because of this. It could be the line they came from. If this was a known issue with the breed someone would be talking about it some where.

on edit: Ok, I just saw your newest update. That lends itself even more to congestive heart failure. His heart was not able to pump like it should and fluids began to collect in other areas of his body. Chances are the yellow is plasma.


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## Pinkter (Aug 19, 2012)

I'm sorry for your loss. I would have never been able to do a necropsy and have understood what was happening. You're awesome.


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## WeeLittleChicken (Aug 31, 2012)

I started that way but fear of not knowing made me get over it. I do the necropsies so I have the peace of mind they didn't die of something contagious (and if some day I find they did hopefully it'll be something I can save the rest from.)


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

And this is where I'm going to burst your bubble, quite a few necropsies get done by labs where a diagnosis is never made. And if it is something contagious, chances are you won't spot it. That would take microscopes, regents, slides and all the other stuff that goes with doing a full necropsy.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

Pinkter said:


> I'm sorry for your loss. I would have never been able to do a necropsy and have understood what was happening. You're awesome.


Pinkter, you'd be surprised at what you can do as time goes on. I can do some but not others. I've sent quite a few out to a lab for a necropsy.

Robin, I was very surprised when the lab called me with one who had a rare form of liver cancer. I guess she felt it was worth a phone call.


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## WeeLittleChicken (Aug 31, 2012)

Last professional necropsy I did was on a kitten. We were having massive birth defects where we used to live - didn't matter what species of animal and I was going out of my mind trying to figure it out. This kitten was the worst of the worst - it was alive but its brain was outside of its head, it had a massive cleft pallet, and twisted limbs and tail. (Aside from the brain outside its head all the other symptoms were those I'd seen on unrelated litters of kittens, rats, cockatiels.... whatever I had over those ten years...)

You want to know what they said? It died of starvation. NO SH*T! - it had a cleft pallet and _a brain outside it's head!_ They blamed this on it being Burmese (it wasn't a Burmese.) $120. That's about the time I stopped going to vets... (I mean I'll go if I HAVE to but anything I can do at home I'll do by myself thank you very much!)


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## MikeA_15 (Feb 21, 2016)

WeeLittleChicken said:


> You're good. I opened him up and his abdominal cavity was FILLED with yellow fluid. His heart sack looked like a balloon - I didn't even know what it was until I cut it open to find the heart - same story with the liver. The heart is enlarged, pallid, oddly-shaped, and very flaccid. Hard to explain but usually heart feel very rubbery and tough - this one just feels like a deflated balloon. His liver was also a mess - surrounded by yellow fluid and pale. I am always shocked how these birds can hide such massive issues. *This was one of two younger roosters who I watch spar and do stupid teenage things every day.* They seemed so robust... but it is a hot day. A really hot day. I will give him that.
> 
> I took photos of the heart and liver but I don't know if I can post them? Perhaps with a graphic warning? I can't seem to edit the title to put that...


Roosters shouldn't be kept together. Stress is the primary immune system killer and can certainly make them more susceptible to bacterial infections like Streptococcus or Clostridium Perfrigens which causes Cholangiohepatitis. Many of the symptoms at necropsy point to that.


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## WeeLittleChicken (Aug 31, 2012)

I have about 50 hens in that pasture... one rooster just isn't going to cut it. Besides most get along very well here, it was just those two that would try and cause trouble. (I.e. try to get the older rooster to spar - which they aren't much interested in, or going up to the gate and trying to spar with the rooster in the breeding pen on the other side. Again, stupid teenager behavior. In my experiance they always settle down after about 6 months and then life is just rather dull.)


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I have 5 silky roos together. Maybe not ideal but can't give away roos who are exposed to Marek's. I check their plumpness every night. They are kept away from females. If spots come up for them they'll get moved. They only spar at bedtime.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Many breeders house their roos together until breeding time. I've had several boys all sharing the same pen. Just don't move them from one place to another because they totally don't recognize each other.


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## Nm156 (May 16, 2015)

I have a 6 pack that roams the yard and so far no problems.
It roams the yard in peace or else it gets the freezer.


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## WeeLittleChicken (Aug 31, 2012)

Exactly. I have no more tolerance for badly behaved roos. They get eaten pretty quick. Now everyone that comes here compliments the roos. They're fine gentlemen. My main laying flock has the three Cornish boys who break all the new up and comers in. They keep them in order when they get out of line with the hens and also have a firm but calm control over them. They don't fight, they just don't, unless one picks a fight with them. Sometimes the young ones try but it only takes once or twice to realize that's a bad idea! And once the young studs are broken in I'll send them to the breeding pens - not before. My hens don't need chaos. 

I was raising up the Cream Legbar as one of three to go out in the rainbow layers' pasture as soon as we get the coop on wheels done. (business has taken my dearest away multiple times and messed with our schedule on that one!) 

We're down to the lowest amount of roosters I think we've ever had. Not counting the ones in the grow-out pen (future dinner) that is. I did have a bachelor pad with the extra Babanter roos but that went from 25 to 3... Each one that tried to spur my face found themselves a warm seat at my dinner table. Anyone that grew out wonky also found themselves there because I only wanted the best. Plus they were alarm calling ALL DAY every day. Stress levels went way down that last round I harvested. By a long shot. Won't keep them so long next time. Considering putting in an order this winter for more so I don't have a genetic bottle neck going here... but I will be culling fast and hard this time. Lessons learned.


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## MikeA_15 (Feb 21, 2016)

WeeLittleChicken said:


> I have about 50 hens in that pasture... one rooster just isn't going to cut it. Besides most get along very well here, it was just those two that would try and cause trouble. (I.e. try to get the older rooster to spar - which they aren't much interested in, or going up to the gate and trying to spar with the rooster in the breeding pen on the other side. Again, stupid teenager behavior. In my experiance they always settle down after about 6 months and then life is just rather dull.)


With 50 hens, one rooster isn't going to cut what? Unless you are breeding for profit, you don't need more than one. All these claims of people keeping roosters together (not 2 month old cockerels) in harmony won't last long. I've witnessed mistakes over a number of years with people keeping roosters together to maturity and eventually the fighting begins, one or both get injured or kill one another. I don't care what breed of chicken it is, roosters have the instinct to do what they do regardless of what people want to believe.


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## WeeLittleChicken (Aug 31, 2012)

OK. If that's what you believe you can do things your way. I have had this current flock for going on two years now. I will keep doing what works for me. My previous flock at the other place also had harmonious roosters, the eldest was seven years old at the time.

And yes... I am breeding them for profit... that is sort of the entire point of this farm. I put 400 eggs in the 'bator every 3 weeks in the warmer months. We're still working on everything of course, but in the end I do this because I enjoy it more than anything else.

This is my set up, or rather part of it. My rooster that died had access to that whole back pasture plus the barn. It's half an acre in size. If he was that stressed out by the other birds and not smart enough to just wander off and find a spot on his own.... Well, it is what it is! I'm not going to feel bad for his demise. He had a good life and this problem would have reared it's ugly head at one point or another. I think the heat did him in myself. It's been ungodly hot. Most of my girls are on strike because of this.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

I've lost a couple birds to extreme heat over the years. There was plenty of shade, cool water, fans blowing, bushes to dig under etc...
For me, it was simply meant to be; the strongest survive(d.) This is the main reason I chose Barred Rocks as my favorites here in the deep south. They've always seemed to deal with the heat and humidity better than most birds. They are an easy going kind of bird and continued to lay eggs in the heat. They lived long lives when other breeds stressed out, practically stopped laying and didnt live long lives.
I'm sure other folks have chosen their ideal breed favorites for their environmental situation also.


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## seminole wind (Aug 22, 2015)

I could have lost a few but caught them just in time and cooled them off. I don't think wee's rooster died from heat stress. I've had one odd death where a rooster just flipped over and died. I thought he was pretending. I believe he was chasing a hen for romance and had a heart attack. 

I don't think I could lump all my roos into one category. I think alot depends on if one roo backs down. Or if they keep their distance for some unknown reason. I've had 2 sets of brothers together without problems. I've had 2 brothers hit hormone age and try to kill eachother. When they were removed from the pen with the girls and there was a big roo free ranging, they kept their distance and became best buddies. Currently I have 5 silkie roos together and they get into it a bit before bed time. They have no hens.


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## chickenqueen (Jan 9, 2016)

My Jr. killed his daddy and my 13 yo rooster last year.He's the sweetest roo with me but can't have other roosters.I've got 3 juvie roo's and don't know what I'm gonna do with them...


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## MikeA_15 (Feb 21, 2016)

chickenqueen said:


> My Jr. killed his daddy and my 13 yo rooster last year.He's the sweetest roo with me but can't have other roosters.I've got 3 juvie roo's and don't know what I'm gonna do with them...


 I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you find homes for your cockerels. Some feed stores may take them for meat price if you inquire with them.


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