# Fiere



## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Look familiar?


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

Is that an adult Marshmallow?? How beautiful! 
I need an updated pic for you, he's getting really cream coloured in the saddle an hackle area, not smutting, but that rich off white colour you were talking about in the dominant white birds. I need to give him a bath so you can tell what colour he actually is and take some glamour shots.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Yes, that's the female version of Marshmallow. 

This is a little bit better pic of Chicklett. She's young enough she still lays. I kept her because she was such a pain in my neck. She wasn't even co-operative for her picture taking. She does have more black than is showing, I guess I need to use my camera and not the phone.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

I hope Mr. Marshmallow looks half as good once he grows up


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

If I remember right, Chicklett was white when she hatched. I saw this several time that many of the white chicks eventually had at least some color showing. So, Mr. Marshmallow could change even more with his next molt. He could show more clumps of black.

That off coloring can be really pretty although its not desired. I don't have the pic of this boy when he was older but you get an idea of the discoloration.








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Did you tell me the breeder raised paints? I'm really curious if he knows he has a dom white bird in his flock.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

He said he tried for paints but had a bad string of luck and the trio passed one way or another. So he would have to have the dominant white bird as there are no paints.

Let's hope Marshmallow grows out of the saddle colouring then. Hats a typical Dom white trait though isn't it? Doesn't prove it but it suggests he has it? If so it will be interesting to see his get


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

He won't lose it, chances are good he'll develop more as he gets older. 

If you really want to experiment you'll need a white and a black. Most prefer using blacks for crossing with the paints. I used white most of the time. If the peeps hatch white and black then you know he's a paint. And might have something to offer the guy you got him from.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm getting BBS eggs in a couple weeks, so I will hopefully have a black hen. It won't be true black, but it'd be near impossible to find a true black I think without genetic testing and bringing in chicks from a breeder of absolute true blacks. Too much expense for what are essentially our pets. I don't want poor quality birds but I am more than happy with mismarked silkies. Im just hoping I don't have too many roosters! With my luck I'm going to be overrun.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Use a white then. You've got me really curious. Spontaneous paints can't happen with Silkies without the dom white being introduced.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

Cross your fingers at least one of the two whites I have is a girl!


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Done. Now I have to wait for them to grow up.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

They should be laying by spring haha! I really hope the others are mostly hens. I can't get rid of them as my daughter with blow a gasket... And I can see me having 10 Roos!
I keep forgetting how old Marshmallow is because he is so small. He's 15 weeks now, roughly.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Got a way to go then. Some of the boys don't mature any faster than some of the females.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

I had a mild heart attack today, came home and who ran across the yard to meet me but little mister himself. I was planning on taking a pic but he had a roll in the peat moss and now he's a chocolate silkie. Sigh.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

A breeder in Arizona is working on chocolate Silkies. This might solve the issues she's having trying to get the color true.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

They certainly love the peat for dust bathing. It doesn't gunk up the feathers at all, but it just coats the silkies like crazy. Definitely the easiest way to make chocolate ones! It was recommended to me as a bedding for the grow out pen as it's super easy to clean regularly (I just go in with the kitty litter scoop) and it hold the moisture on top in a clump instead of it seeping through to the bottom like shavings. For those reasons, it's amazing. However, it's essentially dirt, and of course because I soak the run floor with the hose to keep the birds cool, they walk in it with wet feet and it sticks to them. The hard feathered clean legged birds look great, the silkies... Oh my goodness the mess! 


Here's a question: at what age can you start to see the streamers on the crests? I know it's not a definitive sexing tool, but I'd like to get a rough estimate of my rooster numbers my younger birds. They've all sort of got the bad toupee look going on atm lol!


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

I wonder if it works as well as sand for mites. I wouldn't mind having dirty looking Silkies if it meant the constant fight against mites I go through here went away.

I have no idea. By the time I noticed streamers there were already other physical characteristics that would sex them for me. Streamers might be the last indicator. And I can't even test that theory now that I don't raise them.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

I dust my coop with the mite powder from the feed store every season and I've never had an issue. I know some people like to stay away from synthetic chemicals which is great and for the most part I don't use them either, but when it comes to mites and lice and things, I do what I know is effective.

I don't know what I'm looking for besides "streamers" so I'm lost LOL


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Once these new feathers begin to fill in you should see a legginess to the boys. When they're walking away from you they look odd because there is so much more to their legs. That's the first one I can think of. Once you get used to it its not hard to spot.

Down here in the heat and humidity mites are a problem. Even my husband noticed that I'm having to treat the birds far more often than I ever did 300 miles North of here. And I noticed yesterday I probably have to do it again.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

I was talking to the breeder about Marshmallow and he maintains he is a columbian and says the genetics aren't there for a paint. I didn't have pics to show him at the time.
I don't see columbian, genetically backed or not. Unless silkie columbian are totally different than hard feather columbian, lol.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

There is no Silkie columbian. Gray Silkie males can look like one but they are not. Its just the way they're shaded.

And the reason there is no Silkie columbian is because of the recessive white. That's why when mixing a white with any other color than true black can result in a mish mash of colors. There is no way to know until the chicks hatch molt in to their adult feathers. That's why you see these try color birds, a white was bred with another color. I don't even remember if white appears at all in any of those mixed colors.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

Yea, I showed him pics and he maintains he does not have the genetics for the paint but Marshmallow is columbian. I said he has no collar, no black in the tail, and spots over his back not just his wings, totally different from a hard feathered columbian. Bt w/e. He's cute and I like him!

Check out these little darlings!!!!!








The bigger one is a frizzle, the little on is a frazzle, turns out. Frazzle just means she is homozygous frizzle, but it makes her feathers so curly they're more like pins and break easily. She's going to be hard to maintain in our cold winters. 
I've never seen the like, the little one is right sketchy, the bigger one is a savage with the other birds. She treats her sister like her chick: makes the same noises to her as a momma hen would to call her over to eat or sleep, and if another bird comes too close, watch out! She flies up claws bared and just clocks them. She doesn't care how big they are. It's too funny. She's going to be a stupendous mother.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

We'll just have to wait until he grows in to his big boy pants. You just might be able to prove him wrong. You've seen Chicklett, I know who her parents are and one was a paint. 

So, that's what a frazzle is. I know you remember I know squat about them. I thought that frazzle only happened when bred to another frizzle. Or can it pop spontaneously when using a hard feathered bird?

Your two girls certainly get along better than the pair of sisters I have out there. These two are five years old, SS Hamburgs, one is terrified of the other. Its like they were never introduced yet were raised by the same Mom.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

Ff is showing frizzle, ff is non-showing frizzle, and FF is a homozygous frizzle, which they call a frazzle. Only breeding a F/f to a F/f will get you an FF. 

A silkie with F/f is called a sizzle.

I was typing up the % of getting a F/f when bred back and forth to carriers and non carriers, but I started getting a headache. You know your genetics, lol you don't need an explanation once you get the gist!


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

What I know about genetics is a drop in the bucket. They are so very complicated. And it doesn't help that I'm a visual learner. 

I had lavender (self blue) Silkies for a while. Sold them all. Something no one talks about are the inherent feather issues that can crop up with them. And that they can have issues hatching and maturing. It also appears that the issues are seen in other breeds of the same color. 

At least you've got the girls for the pure pleasure of having them around. And won't have to worry about the complicated breeding issues.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

If you follow basic grade 10 biology for hetero/**** you get a good idea of the genetics behind frizzles. There obviously much more to it, but the basics are here. 

F/f to F/f is 25% frazzle, 50% frizzle, and 25% f/f

F/f to f/f is 50% frizzles and 50% smooth

F/F to f/f is 100% frizzles.

Frazzled are hard to keep, and really shouldn't be bred. As good as it is to be able to produce frizzles 100% of the time... it's n quite worth it to the bird. They have super fragile feathers that break easily and have no real insulating properties. Where my frizzle is soft, curly, and snuggly; the frazzle is more prickly feeling and she dislikes being held (I assume because you hurt her inadvertently as she's all quills), you can also see how much smaller she looks - the birds are very equal in size but the frazzle just has no puff to her. I may have to keep a heat lamp on her this winter and not allow her outside too much. When she molts she's going to look plucked.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

But yes, I'm not "getting into" frizzles. I will breed them (probably to Marshmallow) and get some sizzles, the Cochin will compliment the silkie and the birds, even the smooth ones, will be cute pets. I just love frizzles. They feel like a well groomed poodle. I feel bad for my frazzle, she is very sweet but you can tell she is very wary of being picked up and the shriek she lets out when you do, tells me how uncomfortable it must be for her.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

I was wondering if there would be an issue with picking her up. Its also why she'll stay away from others once she figures out that them being close can cause her pain. 

I still feel guilty about picking up one of my girls when she was in a major molt. The scream she let out made it instantly clear it hurt her. 

Are you going to have some way to isolate those carrying the frizzle gene to keep from having it pop up at unexpected times?


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

You mean the f/f silkie mutts hat will result from the Marshmallow frizzle pairing? They just will be banded and not go into a breeding pen with any pure silkies. It's not so much the frizzle gene I am worried about, it's the Cochin blood tainting the lines. I'd not worry about the frizzle cropping up in subsequent smooth generations, as a carrier will only create a showing frizzle if bred to one. 

I do feel bad for the little frazzle. I might knit her a sweater for the winter, I think. Our winters are long, hard and very damp. I'm going to insulate one of the brooding pens in the new barn for her. Lucky she's a bantam and can come live in the house if need be.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Won't a sweater cause pain with the constant pressure on those feathers? 

Banding would work as long as there are no males running with them. Or there in a group with a male that came from the same frizzle breeding.

I don't know what will happen if you use the Cochin with Marshmallow. I know that chicks from a Silkie and a hard feathered bird usually end up with soft feathers, with mine always a single comb, dark gray skin and most with the five toes and some feathering on the feet.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

They can mate all they want, the eggs from them just won't be set, that's all. I won't smutty the lines. Pure silkies will be housed together in the breeding pen and I might throw the frizzles in with them, the frizzles lay a brown bantam egg so I know exactly what's what when they are set.

When breeding the my frizzles to the silkie: the Cochin would retain the feathered feet and big poofy plumage shape, as while they are hard feathered they are very loosely feathered, so they are a complimentary cross. The ones that come out showing the frizzle gene will be sizzles:








Would depend on how loose fitting the sweater is and how feathered she is. When they molt it's a sin, the lose nearly everything.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Would it be too much to hope that she does like the majority of my birds and would molt during the hottest part of the year? At least five of my ten are now molting or just got done.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

That would be way too easy, Robin! She couldn't possibly do that.

Look what we got done today! Finally. Tomorrow... We start framing walls


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

I can't wait for it to be done so you can tell me all about how fast you ran out of room. LOL

The Hamburg that got the molt started a couple of months ago has gone back to laying. Her sister was the last to start so it'll be a couple of months before she starts again. That leaves just Chicklett who still lays but is molting now too.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

The thing turned out to be over 14.5' wide and just over 14' deep. I will have a 3' wide storage area running the length of the front, with two 3x2' brooding pens (stacked) on one wall (and room for two more on the other heh). The main coop will have four 4x4 breeding pens (also stacked) on one wall, and the option is there on the other wall to put additional cabinet-style breeding pens for the Silkies and bantams. One side of the coop will have a covered 14x8 run for the ducks and on the other side the covered chicken run will be 14x20. 
It's a bit snug but since I am making use out of the walls for pens to free up floor space and I free-range mostly, I think it will serve it's purpose. 

I will also be covering the runs in thick plastic sheeting for winter so there will be no snow inside the coop!


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

You could build one that is 114 X 114 and you would still be out of space. Once you get in to that whole breeding thing some how it just seems to require more and more space. Every single one of us has done it. In the Spring my numbers would explode but because I wouldn't sell off until I saw what I had it could really get cramped in my coops. 

You will never regret the storage area. When its raining its so much more pleasant to to take care of the birds without having to run in and out.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

I think we will just build the coop as a single room cabin and move he chickens into the house


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Fiere said:


> I think we will just build the coop as a single room cabin and move he chickens into the house


Excellent idea!!! Can you imagine, no more huge house to take care of? All the stuff gone because there's no room to put it in. Chickens being able to choose which room they like best.

I knew of a couple that used old single wide mobile homes as coops. Insulated, plumbed if water was needed. I thought, what a great idea. The hubs nixed that idea right quick.

And I just remembered, don't you already live in one? Or a double?


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

Nope, just a single. Bout 14' wide actually, LOL


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

So, idea for you. My big coop was divided in to 4X4 pens. Never mind, what I did would only work for Silkies and not flying birds. I was going to tell you how to deal with over flow by utilizing the 4 ft high wall supports for the pens by putting cages on them. Except you will probably have to use something completely different since most of yours can take flight. 

You're probably going to be well positioned for rehoming since getting decent birds in your area is so difficult. That was the hardest part for me, rehoming. I lived in an area that was heavily ag. Much of what I sold had to be shipped out since all they wanted in my area were egg layers or meat birds.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm going right up to the ceiling with the pens and putting a floor divider in, so each pen with be a 4x4x4 cube. Well the top pens will have sloped ceilings, but you get the idea. 
Basically like this, only inside the coop:








And then on the opposite wall I will have "cabinet style" ones that start 4' off the floor. They resemble the following picture, but they will go right to the ceiling (and not just be a box on the wall), so I lose no floor space. They will be narrower but longer (I'm thinking more like 2x5') and perfect for the bantams:


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

And this is where our age difference really shows up. I couldn't do that top one. Not any more, arthritis has made it too difficult to do the kind of bending over and over again like the top one. Those upper pens would work great for me but the lowers? Not so much. But then that's why I sold the breeding flock. Trying to clean that big building several times a year got to be too much.

But that idea will double the size of your working space.


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## Fiere (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm thinking I am probably going to hate cleaning the lower pens. I will make the doors to they open the whole front and then I just have to pull all the bedding out. The brooding pens will be probably only 1.5' high, so I can put one at 2.5' up and the other at 4' so the chicks will be easily accessible. I can then store things underneath. I'm building a shelving system with identical dimensions on the opposite end of the storage area, which will allow me to easily convert to extra brooders if I need to (how long until do you think that'll take to happen?). 

Having my feed IN the coop is going to be amazing. It's truly the little things, isn't it? I keep all the animal feed in the house right now, as the goat has proved he can open any bin and the chickens cover anything in their coop with poop.


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