# SEVERE Polyuria - Please if anyone knows anything...



## WeeLittleChicken

I have a little Serama pullet here with severe polyuria (too much urine/water in her poop) and she's suffering dehydration and in the house being fed a ton of electrolytes, vitamins, and whatnot. I think she'll pull through but I need to know what is causing it so I can find a better answer.

Here's the back story... Many years ago when I moved in here I was breeding cockatiels. They were OK until they all started displaying CRAZY polyuria. I brought them to the vet... in fact I brought them to every bird vet in New England, most didn't want to deal with them because they weren't parrots, i.e. expensive! None of them ever had an answer for me... the cockatiels went on to live full lives cycling in and out of this polyuria long after I'd shut up my house in permanent cockateil quarantine.

Skip ahead about ten years. Someone dumped some cats on me. They had the same problem. One vet told me it was FIP, another vet told me it was just digestive problems from being inbred purebreeds (even though suspiciously they were not the same breeds, nor breeds known for digestive disorders!) I suspected something was off with our water... had it tested, hundreds of dollars, for everything. Nothing came up.

Annnd now the chickens are having problems. I have noticed my old Serama pair cycle in and out of this but they seem unphased but I just lost a little Serama rooster, Turbo, to dehydration today and I have a pullet who I pulled inside today for the same issue. Right now I have switched all the Seramas in that pen to bottled water and have given them electrolytes proactively.

I put the pullet, Raven, in a cage today bedded on newspaper to illustrate what's going on. As you can see the paper is SOAKED (and no she didn't spill any water, just food as you can see.) Her poops are fairly normal but the amount of urine is soooo not. This was just her after twelve hours or so. Please if anyone has any ideas about this let me know... I am at a loss and feel a bit defeated right now.


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## Bee

If it were just one kind of animal at your place that this had happened to, one might think it was an animal problem...but since you have a history of different species that have been fed different nutrition...one can only guess it has to be the water supply.

If you have hard water and use a water softener that places sodium in the water, it could be this factor. If you have hard water and the mineral content is so high that it affects the renal function, this could be it. 

High sodium intake can definitely affect these different species and I'm wondering if you water has a high sodium content? 

Any way you can get your water tested at your local water board? If you are on city water, they should have those levels already on record.


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## kessy09

I'm really not sure but I just wanted to say I have a cockatiel with the same issue. It's been about five years now. She was eating the Cadillac of cockatiel food (Harrison's pellets) but then this problem arose and her vet (who is an amazing bird vet) told us to switch her to straight seed diet which in my mind was equivalent to McDonald's. The issue resolved. I've attempted to put her back on a pelleted food but the problem has always come back. I never found out what caused it, just what fixes it. She's at a great weight and happy otherwise. I know reproductive behavior and bacterial infections can cause sudden onset of polyuria but once those are taken care of the droppings should go back to normal.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Hmmm... Well we have an artesian well. It is hard water and we do put conditioner in it (which I'm fairly certain is salt - though I've been told by all the water people this shouldn't get into the actual water system and that everyone in the area has to do this.) I will definitely look into that further... as we go through quite a bit! 

Meanwhile I have had the water tested for minerals (nothing unusual) heavy metals, volatile organic compounds, radon... the only thing we haven't tested for that's commonly available is pesticides and agricultural wastes which would be very bizarre as we don't live near any farms... we live in a neighborhood of about 80 homes which I have always noticed have a really high turn out. Families tend not to live here for more than 3-5 years and I have always wondered why. I think we're one of maybe three families that have been here since we moved in some 14 years ago. We're saving up to find a better place in the country and closer to my boyfriend's work. Perhaps escapism has always been the answer but I hate not knowing! I've had a LOT of my own health issues and have been drinking bottled water myself for a number of years but I still cook in it and bathe in it and it always makes me uneasy. 

I have not been able to test for living things in the water like bacteria, fungus, protozoa. I just don't know where I could get a test like that done besides the usual e coli and salmonella which has already been done. The local water testing site has no idea, I've asked around to as many places I can but nothing. The only reason I am trying to pursue that hunch is because my boyfriend set up a salt water aquarium and it literally took him months to get it viable for fish. There was a number of HUGE nitrate spikes and we discovered that despite buying an ionizing super duper water filter the water would somehow collect ammonia after we added the sea salt. This suggests something was alive and died off after the introduction of salt. What though... is anyone's guess. Also the nuclear grade filtration substrate used in that water filter needs changing after evey 44-88 gallons. Most people in the hobby that we have spoken to are astounded. They only have to change theirs once a year! So maybe we do have a reeeally high mineral content and it's still listed as "normal" on tests. SIGH. It's another unresolved issue. You have no idea how many people I've talked to... vets, doctors, animal breeders, water testing people, environmentalists... most give me a look like I have three heads. It's been very frustrating. Very few have even bothered to see a link - they think I just happen to have a huge amount of unrelated issues! My gut has been telling me this isn't the case. 

As for the cockateils... we had them on Lafeber's Pellets, I don't even think Harrison existed at the time, or at least wasn't popular. Eventually we fed them seeds. Didn't seem to do anything. Most have lived out their lives and died in old age (at the time we believed they'd gotten some rare disease so no birds left the house to prevent spreading it, they were effectively locked up in a retirement home here.) 

Thank you everyone for your ideas and input. You have given me a few additional things to look into which I will!


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## Apyl

I would have to agree with the water and the use of salt. Although you asked water professionals , are they professions in avain as well? Years ago when I was researching chickens I do believe I red some where to make sure and NOT give treated water is you use a water softener. Of course it could have just been opinion but I find it interesting that the topic came up. Do you have a water source you can use that is not attached to your water softener ?

Also if this is not the issue I am also thinking ground contaminant. That would explain the cat and chicken issue, as for the cockatiels not sure. I've never dealt with pet birds so not sure how sensitive their immune systems are.


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## TheLazyL

WeeLittleChicken said:


> Hmmm... Well we have an artesian well. It is hard water and we do put conditioner in it ...


Your "Conditioner" is a Water Softener? If yes then any outside water faucets are usually plumb in BEFORE the water softener. So if this is your case then refill your stocks waterers from a outside faucet.


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## WeeLittleChicken

I do use the outside hose in the warm months, which is now... I am not sure if the water goes through the conditioner or not although now you mention it.... I am not sure it does. Will have to ask now as I don't really know. 

I have put at least the little guys on bottled water from the store for now. That's the best I can do for that. Luckily the little pullet I brought in seems to be improving (granted in small steps! She's still got a ways to go!) 

The water testing people didn't know a heck of a lot about anything... and sadly to say they were the largest/closest/government certified site around. I am not sure I'd make it anywhere else as most of these tests are time sensitive. The avian vets that treated the cockatiels are quite different than poultry vets... I don't know how their physiology differs (although by my experience I'd say parrots are WAY more sensitive to everything compared to a chicken, which might explain why all of them came down with this while only a few chickens did.) They were of little help. I am considering seeing if there are any poultry vets in the area - although to be quite honest I think I will come up empty handed as I have looked before. No one wants to deal with birds around here. I don't get it! Goats, horses, pigs? fine! Birds? Good luck! 

I will continue to sleuth the internet to see if I can find anything bad about water softener/conditioner...


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## kjohnstone

Definitely do ACV in the water, start at 1 Tbsp per gal.


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## WeeLittleChicken

OK.... So I thought I should swing by for an update. I have done everything suggested here (thanks again for the tips!) but my little pullet isn't doing so hot. I don't think she has much time left... She's stopped eating normally and is lethargic. I think the water loss was just too much for her to keep up with.  (Plus I read somewhere that her kidneys had to have been at least 60% nonfunctioning to show polyuria as a symptom and seeing as it was so severe... who knows if they were working at all!)

On a happier note putting vitamins, electrolytes, and ACV in the now store-bought water seems to have prevented anyone else from having problems. Everyone else seems to being doing well. 

Also I have been working on the water problem. I checked it for salt with a tool you use in the salt water fish hobby to gauge how much salt you need to add/take out. No salt registered. However... I also tested for nitrates twice and each time I came up with somewhere between 5-10mg/L. I did some research... Apparently the FDA thinks that ideally you shouldn't have any nitrates in your water but if there is up to 10 is supposed to be safe. That being said I have my suspicion that every time it rains the nitrate might spike so I am waiting for a good downpour. I found out nitrates in the water can do direct damage as well as encourage bacterial growth that can do secondary damage. Also long term nitrate exposure can cause kidney damage as well as the same birth defects I've seen in animals born here.... I may be onto something but I am afraid to get my hopes too high. This has been a problem for 15 years and I have doggedly tracked down every lead I could and have gotten my hopes up in the past for nothing. 

And that's where my story ends, for today anyway. Weather report is predicting rain at the end of the week. Fingers crossed..... 

I want to thank everyone for all the help. It's been a real help to have someone to bounce ideas off of and someone to look at the situation from a different angle making suggestions I would have never thought of.


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## Bee

Great update! Thank you for posting this situation and all that you've found...it could help someone else in the future with the same issues.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Another update. Lost Pumpkin, another Serama rooster. He got sick fast, died within three days. Curiosity got the best of me and I did an amateur necropsy on both him and the little pullet I lost just before him. 

In Pumpkin I discovered his liver was a sorry sight - speckled in color with gray patches here and there and other spots of discoloration. Everything else appeared alright. 

In Raven the pullet who was sick for two weeks - well her insides were a MESS. Her liver was downright scary. It was speckled worse, big gray patches, general discolored spots, and a line near the bottom that was tan (necrosis?) And if that wasn't bad enough she had something else going on. I cut into her liver and up near the top it was the consistency of ground meat and felt... grainy. Definitely not normal. 

In addition to that she was missing a gall bladder (probably just a genetic anomaly) and the thing that connects to her gizzard, the proventriculus, was HUGE - three times the size it should have been. I cut it open. Looked to be just swollen for the most part. Her heart showed some gray flesh around it too. Not really sure what to think of that. 


Did a little research... It could be mareks but I'm not convinced. I looked up if cockatiels could get mareks, yes they can, but just like these two particular chickens the symptom list is way different so I don't know.... Another possibility, one I think is more likely, is some sort of protozoa. Apparently nitrates in the water can cause bacterial and fungal (and maybe protozoa??) to grow out of control. NH water is apparently rife with giardia, I found out from another chicken owner........... And back when I had cats they had giardia. Blah. 

It's raining today. I am going to retest the water, see if the nitrates are above 5. it looks like this issue is going to be more complicated then previously expected. I took photos of the weird organs. Just don't want to post them here and shock anyone but if you want to see them I can put them in an album somewhere.


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## Bee

Please post them? Chicken organs are a fact of chickens, as are necropsy results, so it could be very educational. 

I am so sorry that this is happening and I wonder what in the world you can do to prevent it. If you are using this same water to make your FF, I'm wondering if the organisms in the FF could kill off the harmful pathogens. 


Been doing a lot of searches about spots on the liver and found that fungal infections can show up there and cause these types of lesions, so you might be on the right track there, who knows? Sure would be neat to have the birds sent away and with the information you have on your water as some added info so that those doing the necropsy would have a clue as to what to look for.


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## Bee

Here's some symptoms of liver disease in dogs and cats...now if you could only find out what is affecting their livers. I think you are on the right track with the water but just haven't found the missing clue...



> Symptoms of liver disease are variable and subtle in the early stages of the problem. The classic symptoms are:
> *Poor appetite (anorexia)*- This is a common symptom
> *Weight loss-* The poor appetite that occurs in liver disease eventually leads to loss of weight. Improper metabolism of fat, carbohydrates, and proteins complicates the situation also.
> *Polyuria/polydipsia (PU/PD)*- This is excess urinating and excess drinking of water. This can occur in liver disease, although several other important diseases cause these symptoms also, notably, kidneydisease, Cushing's disease, pyometra, and diabetes mellitus (sugar diabetes).
> *Lethargy-* Poor appetite and disruption in normal physiologic processes leads to this symptom. Anemia adds to this lethargy, along with ascites due to the discomfort it causes.
> *Anemia-* Improper nutrition from a poor appetite, along with disease in the hepatocytes will cause this.
> *Light colored stool*- If the biliary tree is prevented from secreting normal bile pigments into the intestine the stool will lack pigmentation and appear lighter in color.
> Bleeding disorders- The normal clotting system is impaired since it depends on a healthy liver.
> *Distended abdomen due to ascites or hepatomegaly*. If the distention is severe enough breathing might be labored from pain or the pressure on the diaphragm.
> *Vomiting (emesis) nausea, or diarrhea.* Sometimes blood is present in the vomitus (hematemesis), especially if a gastric ulcer is present. The ulcer comes from a complex interaction of histamine, nitrogen, bile acids, Gastrin, portal hypertension, and altered mucous membrane lining the inside of the stomach.
> 
> *Pain* due to distention of a diseased liver.
> *Orange colored urine* or mucous membranes due to jaundice.
> *Behavioral changes*- circling, head tilt, heap pressing, and seizures, particularly right after a meal


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## WeeLittleChicken

Well, I have never fed them FF, too afraid to use water I've felt up until this point was poison... but who knows. Willing to try anything at this time. :/

I am thinking maybe if another dies I can try getting it to Tufts, a veterinary university that is maybe an hour and a half, two hours drive from here. Previously I've used local vets to do necropsies and to be more than blunt about it... they're terrible at it.

Anyway, did another tap test after some rain. Nitrogen is still a strong 5. Will try it again tomorrow.

I am not sure how good these photos are. Unfortunately I only had my cell phone to make photos. I had no idea how to go about this but I decided I had to figure out a way to keep the organs in place so I knew what I was looking at, while staring at a chart. Had to cut them open from the front and cut through the sternum with some wire cutters. This worked for what I needed and explains why there's feathers in some of the photos.

This is Pumpkin's liver... As I stated before he died much quicker and had less other organ damage but his liver is in a sorry state. (Also I am sorry for the hack job I did, there's cuts on the liver that are totally me...) But anyways as you can see there is a lot of discoloration.










Also I thought Raven had the liver cysts but according to my photos it was Pumpkin. I cut part of his liver open here and found what I believe to be cysts. This was where the liver felt grainy and had the texture of ground beef. As you can see the black spots are blood clots but I have no idea if that was before or after death those formed as he died naturally, not from bleeding out like a slaughtered chicken. There's also white spots.... no idea what those are.










Another nice photo - much nicer than the ones I took after I removed them.










And Raven, the little pullet who was sick for two weeks before dying... I knew what I was doing by the time I got to her and it's a good thing because her liver was in much worse shape. This is a photo of the liver still in place, as you can see there is a sliver of tan discoloration at the bottom (which actually looks... cooked... if that makes any sense.)










Here is her gizzard, still attached to a HUGE proventriculus...










I cut it open to see whhhy it was so big...










And here's her tiny heart. I don't know if you can see it but it was swaddled in an unhealthy gray patch of flesh (wasn't fat.)


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## Bee

Wow! Thanks for the pics..most educational. I agree with your assessment about the livers..definitely some kind of disease process going on as well as that proventriculus tumor. What's with THAT? No wonder it was sick!

Those livers looked like organs from young chickens, did not seem overly enlarged as one would see in hepatitis. No fluid in the body cavity as one would find in ascites? The heart was not enlarged either but did look diseased as well.

I'm wondering about heavy metals or metal toxicity...any chance of that in your water? The symptoms of zinc poisoning include the polyuria and abnormalities in the liver.

http://www.avianweb.com/heavymetalpoisoningbirds.html

Found some articles on high nitrates and the symptoms, noted this paragraph:



> Monogastric animals such as swine and chick-
> ens have no rumen. Most nitrate is rapidly elim-
> inated in their urine


Sure wish I could help you find this..this is going to bug the crapola out of me until I know and I'm sure you are in much more dire need to know. Simply frustrating!


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## WeeLittleChicken

We tested for heavy metals first thing - as some people around here have arsenic run-off but everything came out OK in that department. I am thinking the high nitrates are providing an ideal environment for a "bloom" of protozoas. The reason I think this is because when I had the cats they always had giardia or coccidia... to the point the meds they were giving me to treat them stopped working... and they were diagnosed with IBS...

In addition to that I found this photo that looks like my ground beef liver... it was also caused by yet another species of protozoa, some sort of amoeba... (Entamoeba histolytica ) This particular protozoa lives in the liver by encasing themselves in an abscess which causes the weird clots I found... before spreading to the brain (I didn't look at their brains... it didn't occur to me I should!)










I talked to a friend of mine who is med student. He tells me that protozoa LOVE livers and he thinks my nitrate idea might be correct. In the meanwhile I am looking to borrow someone's microscope to see if I can see any wee beasties in the tap or in the livers (which I've pickled in vodka for now.)


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## fuzziebutt

DOES ANYONE WANNA SAY DON'T LOOK IF YOU'RE SQUEAMISH, BECAUSE THE PICS ARE ICCCKKKKYY?????

Ok now that is off my chest, what about black walnuts? They are toxic to chickens. Or histoplasmosis encapsulated in humans, possibly something to consider the relation, since it is caused by chicken poo?


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## WeeLittleChicken

And oh, I have been looking around about the enlarged proventriculus. I found something but now I can't find it back - I think it was another protozoa. I'll backtrack and see if I can find it. Head's spinning. Also these chickens were hatched back in March so they're about six months old. Obviously being Seramas they were still tiny but had grown normally up until that point. There was no excess fluid that I saw.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Well, I asked if I should post them in the first place.... I can edit a few messages back and add that if you'd like. 

And nope, no strange plants here. These Seramas live in a tractor that only covers lawn.. and the cockatiels and cats lived indoors so there's no explanation there either....


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## Bee

You can go back to your original post and edit the title to say Graphic Pics Warning or some such for those who are squeamish about the facts of chicken anatomy.

*Thank you for posting this info and pics so that others may learn! *

I'm wondering if the FF might kill any protozoa bloom encouraged by the nitrates. Someone on BYC was reporting that one of their pets kept getting giardia but that it cleared up after they started fermenting their foods.

Worth a shot!


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## fuzziebutt

Bee said:


> You can go back to your original post and edit the title to say Graphic Pics Warning or some such for those who are squeamish about the facts of chicken anatomy.
> 
> *Thank you for posting this info and pics so that others may learn! *
> 
> I'm wondering if the FF might kill any protozoa bloom encouraged by the nitrates. Someone on BYC was reporting that one of their pets kept getting giardia but that it cleared up after they started fermenting their foods.
> 
> Worth a shot!


I was kidding about the graphic pictures...


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## hillbilly61

Great post this is what I joined site for enjoyed the read and pics


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## jaystyles75

WeeLittleChicken said:


> Another update. Lost Pumpkin, another Serama rooster. He got sick fast, died within three days. Curiosity got the best of me and I did an amateur necropsy on both him and the little pullet I lost just before him.
> 
> In Pumpkin I discovered his liver was a sorry sight - speckled in color with gray patches here and there and other spots of discoloration. Everything else appeared alright.
> 
> In Raven the pullet who was sick for two weeks - well her insides were a MESS. Her liver was downright scary. It was speckled worse, big gray patches, general discolored spots, and a line near the bottom that was tan (necrosis?) And if that wasn't bad enough she had something else going on. I cut into her liver and up near the top it was the consistency of ground meat and felt... grainy. Definitely not normal.
> 
> In addition to that she was missing a gall bladder (probably just a genetic anomaly) and the thing that connects to her gizzard, the proventriculus, was HUGE - three times the size it should have been. I cut it open. Looked to be just swollen for the most part. Her heart showed some gray flesh around it too. Not really sure what to think of that.
> 
> Did a little research... It could be mareks but I'm not convinced. I looked up if cockatiels could get mareks, yes they can, but just like these two particular chickens the symptom list is way different so I don't know.... Another possibility, one I think is more likely, is some sort of protozoa. Apparently nitrates in the water can cause bacterial and fungal (and maybe protozoa??) to grow out of control. NH water is apparently rife with giardia, I found out from another chicken owner........... And back when I had cats they had giardia. Blah.
> 
> It's raining today. I am going to retest the water, see if the nitrates are above 5. it looks like this issue is going to be more complicated then previously expected. I took photos of the weird organs. Just don't want to post them here and shock anyone but if you want to see them I can put them in an album somewhere.


Where in nh are you? We are too, and have well water too. Very scary! So sorry for all of your losses


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## WeeLittleChicken

I'm in Southern NH, in a little town no one's heard of, Rindge. I just learned Giardia is pretty common in well water in NH but has only gained attention recently. There's also issues here and there with other things. It's been a long journey... but if you ever have suspicions about your water it's always good to have it checked out (and if you're me.. for everything under the sun!) Contemplating starting an open dialogue with neighbors to see if it's just my property or the whole neighborhood. :/ 

Thanks all for the support. I hope someone can learn something. I will keep this thread updated if I figure out more. This week I have set aside to research what I can do to solve this water problem and make a game plan.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Had another pullet come down sick from the same group. She died and I totally forgot I was going to bring her to Tufts. I've been really distracted lately due to a lot of things, my dog being diagnosed with aggressive cancer and given six months to live didn't help matters. :| I've been going out of mind here...

Anyway, I did open the pullet, Toffee, up after she died. She was weird. She wasted like the rest of the ones that died and was thin and yet her heart sack was FILLED with fluid, a ridiculous amount, her heart was HUGE and choked with fatty tissue (or maybe a tumor?) I didn't know such a thing was possible for something that was dying of a wasting disease! Also of note like the others her livers sustained damage, had the same lesions and discoloration although it wasn't too bad. Her spleen however had turned all black on the underside (necrotic?) and I found a weird white lump on her intestines although I don't know if that was a normal part of anatomy or not as I didn't look at the others intestines... Everyone else in that pen seems active healthy and are putting on weight. They're laying eggs as well, save for the lone rooster of course. Still have them on bottled water... and in the meantime someone offered to check out my water under a big laboratory microscope to see if there was any wee beasties in there like I suspect. However since getting the offer the Nitrates went down to 3... and no one's showing polyuria... so whatever this is it's cycled out and I am waiting for it's return to do that particular experiment. I still have a strong feeling it's a cycle that is caused by the whims of the Nitrates that go up and down in the tap water. Waiting for rain again... so far no luck. Anyway, here's photos...

Hard to see but there's a band of brown discoloration through the middle of Toffee's liver here.










Pieces of liver at the top... they didn't want to come out. This bird was so fluid filled I couldn't get my hands on anything. Had to literally keep wiping her out with paper towels... At the bottom left is the blackened spleen. To the right bottom is her heart which is more than twice the size it should be in a bird her size..










Here's her heart covered in either fatty tissue or a tumor, honestly not sure... but it maintained an unhealthy gray coloration under the mystery tissue as well.










Here you can see her sliced open liver to the left with three very clear lesions.










And the weird white lump I found in her entrails...


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## Itsacutefuzzball

WeeLittleChicken said:


> Had another pullet come down sick from the same group. She died and I totally forgot I was going to bring her to Tufts. I've been really distracted lately due to a lot of things, my dog being diagnosed with aggressive cancer and given six months to live didn't help matters. :| I've been going out of mind here...
> 
> Anyway, I did open the pullet, Toffee, up after she died. She was weird. She wasted like the rest of the ones that died and was thin and yet her heart sack was FILLED with fluid, a ridiculous amount, her heart was HUGE and choked with fatty tissue (or maybe a tumor?) I didn't know such a thing was possible for something that was dying of a wasting disease! Also of note like the others her livers sustained damage, had the same lesions and discoloration although it wasn't too bad. Her spleen however had turned all black on the underside (necrotic?) and I found a weird white lump on her intestines although I don't know if that was a normal part of anatomy or not as I didn't look at the others intestines... Everyone else in that pen seems active healthy and are putting on weight. They're laying eggs as well, save for the lone rooster of course. Still have them on bottled water... and in the meantime someone offered to check out my water under a big laboratory microscope to see if there was any wee beasties in there like I suspect. However since getting the offer the Nitrates went down to 3... and no one's showing polyuria... so whatever this is it's cycled out and I am waiting for it's return to do that particular experiment. I still have a strong feeling it's a cycle that is caused by the whims of the Nitrates that go up and down in the tap water. Waiting for rain again... so far no luck. Anyway, here's photos...
> 
> Hard to see but there's a band of brown discoloration through the middle of Toffee's liver here.
> 
> Pieces of liver at the top... they didn't want to come out. This bird was so fluid filled I couldn't get my hands on anything. Had to literally keep wiping her out with paper towels... At the bottom left is the blackened spleen. To the right bottom is her heart which is more than twice the size it should be in a bird her size..
> 
> Here's her heart covered in either fatty tissue or a tumor, honestly not sure... but it maintained an unhealthy gray coloration under the mystery tissue as well.
> 
> Here you can see her sliced open liver to the left with three very clear lesions.
> 
> And the weird white lump I found in her entrails...


Hmm... I would say maybe a bad case of internal parasites. I'd look up the white lump, but I'm thinking (if chickens get this) that it might be tapeworm. Hmm...


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## Bee

Nah...I've seen tapeworm in a chicken and they are attached on the inside of the small intestine..not on the outside. 

You certainly did a good, thorough job of the necropsy and the pics and this is bugging the boogers out of me!! I'm a nurse, so my head is spinning with all the possibilities..and knowing that your other pets have died with similar symptoms just makes it even more frustrating, because we really can't put this down to a poultry disease. 

I'm going to study on this...but I'm thinking the only way you will ever find out is to take this bird to an agricultural division in your state that deals with poultry illnesses and diseases and ask them to do testing.


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## WeeLittleChicken

I was honestly going to bring the next one that died down to Tufts (very prestigious veterinary school) but my head wasn't on straight this week and it completely slipped my mind. Should I lose another it'll have to be that one that makes the trip but as it is no one has polyuria at the moment. In the meanwhile I will see if I can maybe e-mail them some pics to pick at their brains... I don't know if they'll allow that... but it's worth a try and if money is the issue I don't have any problem paying them to listen to my woes!


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## Itsacutefuzzball

Bee said:


> Nah...I've seen tapeworm in a chicken and they are attached on the inside of the small intestine..not on the outside.


Well, I tried... I don't really know much about the subject, but with the little I knew I tried to make educated guesses. You know a lot more than me though!


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## Bee

Itsacutefuzzball said:


> Well, I tried... I don't really know much about the subject, but with the little I knew I tried to make educated guesses. You know a lot more than me though!


Not really.  I've just had the occasion to open up intestines to have a look see now and again and you've probably never really wanted to go there! LOL I can understand that, for sure.

It's not that I know so much, but that I've been so curious and inquisitive about gory things. 

Wanna see some tape worms I found in a chicken??


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## WeeLittleChicken

Aye.... have had more than my fair share of run-ins with worms of all kinds in the cats. Not yet with the chickens but wow is that an impressive load... 

We all learn from experience of course! And you might be right - it might be a parasite of some sort, although my bet is on protazoa of some sort. Did I mention I ordered a microscope?


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## WeeLittleChicken

A microscope with an attached camera so I can document what I'm seeing.... makes it worse, doesn't it?


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## Bee

WeeLittleChicken said:


> Aye.... have had more than my fair share of run-ins with worms of all kinds in the cats. Not yet with the chickens but wow is that an impressive load...
> 
> We all learn from experience of course! And you might be right - it might be a parasite of some sort, although my bet is on protazoa of some sort. Did I mention I ordered a microscope?


Cool! They are so neat! Would they have to be stained in order to visualize their specific identity under the microscope?

That impressive load was in one very fat hen, BTW. No outward signs of worms at all...active, sleek of feathering, healthy in other respects though born with a wry tail and a very poor conformation and so was culled.

Here's a pic of her abdomen before pulling out the entrails...look at the enormous fat layers on the inside and outside of this "worm infested" bird.


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## hennypenny68

Bee said:


> Nah...I've seen tapeworm in a chicken and they are attached on the inside of the small intestine..not on the outside.
> 
> You certainly did a good, thorough job of the necropsy and the pics and this is bugging the boogers out of me!! I'm a nurse, so my head is spinning with all the possibilities..and knowing that your other pets have died with similar symptoms just makes it even more frustrating, because we really can't put this down to a poultry disease.
> 
> I'm going to study on this...but I'm thinking the only way you will ever find out is to take this bird to an agricultural division in your state that deals with poultry illnesses and diseases and ask them to do testing.


I agree with you Bee it's kinda strange how these chickens are dying and now your dog has cancer as well it has me puzzled and very concerned you should take your water to a proper place to be tested just to be safe and were do you live is it near the city or an industrial area or even a dump I'm not trying to scare any one but this just doesn't add up and those spots on the chickens liver hmmmm I'm going to do some research. Oh and I'm so sorry about your puppy dog and the loss of your peeps as well


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## WeeLittleChicken

I have had the water tested for everything possible by a government licensed facility. The only thing I did not test for was agricultural wastes and pesticides because that test was $400+ and it didn't seem a likely suspect. I'm in a neighborhood but the neighborhood is in the boonies. There are no factories or large industrial farms anywhere near here. It's mostly trees in these parts. I cannot testify that this property wasn't somehow contaminated before the house was built some twenty something years ago. I tested the tap again tonight for nitrates (home kit) and it came out 5 parts per million again. So far this is the only thing amiss I can find... 

This has been a concern since I moved in some 15 years ago. It has ravaged everything I try to breed here... first the freshwater fish, then the cockatiels, then the rats, then the cats, then the chickens. (This is over 15 years - I don't have all those critters now if you're wondering. That'd be way too much to deal with!) 

I have not had any specific problems with cancer so I think the dog is just a thing on her own. In fact when I bred the rats their cancer rates were remarkably low, lower than any other breeders in the area, most likely due to my fierce breeding program but still! 

I had a long talk with a friend who is trying to enter medical school now. He told me that the fluid around the heart of the last one as well as the blackened spleen could be caused by cancer. I sort of wondered about this when I found the intestinal tumor. Since I do have Marek's on the property I guess I can probably chalk up this last death to that - as Marek's causes weird cancers if I am reading correctly. That being said the timing is weird (just after becoming egg-laying age) and the fact she didn't show any normal outward Marek's symptoms (eye problems, skin lesions, paralysis) is also weird. 

I am a bit concerned if I do lose one to Mareks and I send that one to be necropsied at Tufts that they will write the whole thing off as everyone dying of Marek's... but I just don't believe that is the case. I don't believe in that many coincidences.


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## WeeLittleChicken

And to Bee, wow is that a fat hen! You must be proud. LoL. I don't know if I have to stain the samples.... guess I have some research to do or a manual to read.


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## Bee

WeeLittleChicken said:


> And to Bee, wow is that a fat hen! You must be proud. LoL. I don't know if I have to stain the samples.... guess I have some research to do or a manual to read.


Actually, I was very ashamed at producing that much fat on my hens. She was not the fattest, by any means. When I got them back from a bad place I was so anxious to get them back to health that I was TOO good to them for a little time, nutritionally speaking, and if I had continued, I would have really hurt my flock.

As soon as I saw this inside her, I realized I had overfed...WAY overfed..on proteins and fats and set about righting that wrong.

I am currently doing the same right now and trimming down the flock...down to feeding almost nothing right now to get them down to a healthy weight. They've been on 16% layer ration and not too much of that, even, but they are way too fat again and so they are on slim rations now.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Well it FINALLY rained, a good hard rain for a couple hours, not a sprinkle. I tested the tap water again. Nitrates are in fact up... somewhere between 10-20ppm. Now that I have that I have put some water aside to be looked at by my volunteer with a laboratory microscope to see if this has caused any "blooms" of protozoa or bad bacteria. I will let you know if that comes up with anything... In the meanwhile all the Seramas are on bottled water still and I've stopped cooking in my own tap. :| Trying to figure out if the Nitrates are coming from a broken septic (if so is it ours or our neighbors who are right next to us and up hill) or if it's a well problem or if it's a general area problem. What an expensive mess! 

To Bee: I understand! I wish I could keep my laying girls a little trimmer but my Orpingtons insist on having food available 24/7 or they start plucking the other hens... SIGH. I have given them to the end of fall. Tired of putting up with their antics (and WOW is everyone fat in that pen!)


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## Bee

I understand...Orps are not my favorite birds and this is the main reason, among others.


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## WeeLittleChicken

Well, it's been a long journey.... Sometime after these problems arrived my neighbors decided after two years of not complaining that my chickens were a problem. They knew someone had chickens that they could hear but they didn't know who... so they threatened to send out a Chicken Gestapo knocking on people's doors. As it turns out by town law we were in the *only* neighborhood where no livestock was allowed. So before those SOB's could figure it out I homed them, on my own terms. It was super frustrating though because at this time we were already actively seeking another home to begin with!

But to make a long story short we bought a 2 acre farm with a 5 stall barn and two outbuildings. They had alpacas, goats, and mini horses. We're super excited to make it into a more poultry-friendly farm. We don't have any chickens yet but my health seems to be improving and I have really high hopes for this place. I don't think I will have nearly as many problems here which makes me so happy. Just figured I would send this happy little update because you guys were so great in trying to help me before. Thanks so much. I look forward to re-joining the festivities.  (Photos are of the place before we bought it - I really need to take a few of my own snaps!)


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## nj2wv

Very nice !!!


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