# Sick Hen Swollen Eyes



## seminole wind

Now I have a Faverolle that has swollen eyes and/or face, not eating or drinking, has been laying down. Anyone? The eyes have no discharge. I guess it's picture time.


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## robin416

Yes, it is. It sounds like it's time for a round of antibiotics if she's feeling that down.

What the heck is going on with your flock? I didn't see any of the challenges you've been seeing even when I had a hundred birds and even with my oldies I'm not seeing such odd stuff.


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## seminole wind

Pictures , Yes, her beard is dirty like every day from eye ointment which is not working.


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## robin416

I would get her on a broad spectrum antibiotic. I'd tell you take her temp but it's so hard to judge temps when normal has such a wide swing. I think it's 101 to 104 is considered normal. 

Her comb and even her skin under her beak appear to be shrunken on the right side. 

Could she have been bitten or stung by something? Give her a Bendryl also, to see if that does anything. It won't hurt her.


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## seminole wind

I don't know if she's been stung. She started with one puffy eye , now she has 2. I put her on Baytril unless I need something else.

This year is a nightmare. Maybe the rain is making more mosquitos. 

One gets (in hindsight) wet pox. One has a face full of dry pox. One has swollen eyes/face. The rest were vaccinated the other night for pox, but I think I'll do it again. 

I have Benedryl.


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> I don't know if she's been stung. She started with one puffy eye , now she has 2. I put her on Baytril unless I need something else.
> 
> This year is a nightmare. Maybe the rain is making more mosquitos.
> 
> One gets (in hindsight) wet pox. One has a face full of dry pox. One has swollen eyes/face. The rest were vaccinated the other night for pox, but I think I'll do it again.
> 
> I have Benedryl.


Baytril is a good one to try. How much does she weigh?


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## dawg53

Droopy eye, facial swelling, not eating/drinking: Most likely an upper form of infectious sinusitis related to one or more of the following infectious diseases:
Infectious Bronchitis (IB,) Mycoplasma Gallisepticum (MG,) Mycoplasma Synoviae (MS.) Give her tylan 50 injectable, 1/2cc injected into the breast muscle once a day for 3-5 days, alternate breasts and inject in different spot on breast. Also use your syringe with needle and carefully put one drop of the tylan into one nostril as best as you can, do this once a day for 5 days. The tylan will treat MG/MS, there is no treatment for IB. You should see improvement by about the third day if it's MG/MS, continue to the fifth day. Quarantine her away from the others, remember biosecurity. Your other option is to cull her and send her off for necropsy.


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## seminole wind

casportpony said:


> Baytril is a good one to try. How much does she weigh?


Let's say 5 pounds.


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## seminole wind

dawg53 said:


> Droopy eye, facial swelling, not eating/drinking: Most likely an upper form of infectious sinusitis related to one or more of the following infectious diseases:
> Infectious Bronchitis (IB,) Mycoplasma Gallisepticum (MG,) Mycoplasma Synoviae (MS.) Give her tylan 50 injectable injected into the breast muscle once a day for 3-5 days, alternate breasts and inject in different spot on breast. Also use your syringe with needle and carefully put one drop of the tylan into one nostril as best as you can, do this once a day for 5 days. The tylan will treat MG/MS, there is no treatment for IB. You should see improvement by about the third day if it's MG/MS, continue to the fifth day. Quarantine her away from the others, remember biosecurity. Your other option is to cull her and send her off for necropsy.


Being I have no where to keep her except my bedroom, she is rooming in with the pox dude. I don't know about her, she's been sleeping.

I think it's a real good possibility that her sinuses may cause this. But she has no discharge . Mouth is clean. Beard was cut off.

Dawg, where the heck would she get MG/MS or IB?

I'm getting injectable Tylan on Tuesday.

They are both on my patio. I've gone thru a lot of clothes this past week. Changing clothes between those two and the rest of the chickens. I'm not touching anyone. Handwashing is a given. There are no mosquitos on the patio.

I may send her for a necropsy. When she dies.


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## seminole wind

Is there a good premise spray for mosquitos?


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## dawg53

Respiratory diseases can be introduced not only from other birds or a carrier bird, but also from clothing, shoes, hands, vehicle tires etc...


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Let's say 5 pounds.


You didn't ask, but I thought I'd say this about the Baytril. If she were a five pound hen of mine the most I would give her is:

0.5ml once a day by injection in breast or 0.25ml twice a day orally for no more than 5 days. If no improvement in 3 days I would probably not continue with the Baytril.


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## seminole wind

Okay. I'll do that. But you did ask me what she weighed.


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Okay. I'll do that. But you did ask me what she weighed.


Just wanted to share with you what I would do.


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## seminole wind

casportpony said:


> Just wanted to share with you what I would do.


I certainly like it when you share! Thanks.


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## seminole wind

Kathy or anyone who would like to add an opinion, when do you call it quits? How many days should I give them to look better? Should I just let them die naturally? Or help? Maybe if I get a necropsy box ready she will snap out of it.


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## robin416

No one can answer that question for you, we're not there to see her condition. And no none should. If you are beginning to question her chances of recovery then you're moving closer to making a determination.


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## dawg53

Two months ago I was dealing with a case of what I suspected was enteritis in one of my BR hens. Short of throwing the kitchen sink at her, there wasnt any improvement and I culled her on the 14th day. I just cant see pumping a bird full of different antibiotics and other chemicals over an extended period of time possibly causing more harm than good. I shouldve culled my hen sooner. I guess I'm getting soft in my old age.
Seminole...only you can make the call.


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Kathy or anyone who would like to add an opinion, when do you call it quits? How many days should I give them to look better? Should I just let them die naturally? Or help? Maybe if I get a necropsy box ready she will snap out of it.


How sick is she? Is the Baytril helping at all?


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## MichaelA69

Wild birds are a problem when it comes to MG. Hen looks anemic, but it isn't Coryza. I'd use Denagard if you have it and don't want to cull the bird. Lots of folks don't realize CRD is a stress disease and only happens to birds with compromised immune systems. You may have MG in the flock and the rest don't exhibit symptoms because they have strong immune systems. The only other suggestion is to surrender the bird to a lab for testing. At least you may know what you are dealing with due to test results. 
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/animal_dis_spec/poultry/downloads/labs_app.pdf


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## seminole wind

MichaelA69 said:


> Wild birds are a problem when it comes to MG. Hen looks anemic, but it isn't Coryza. I'd use Denagard if you have it and don't want to cull the bird. Lots of folks don't realize CRD is a stress disease and only happens to birds with compromised immune systems. You may have MG in the flock and the rest don't exhibit symptoms because they have strong immune systems. The only other suggestion is to surrender the bird to a lab for testing. At least you may know what you are dealing with due to test results.
> https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/animal_dis_spec/poultry/downloads/labs_app.pdf


She is 6.5 years old. I will look for a box, I like to be prepared ahead of time. It helps, really. 
I will have to look up those ailments, Dawg posted a link.

I think that if one can afford it, it's worth getting the necropsy. I have 26 more chickens plus silkies to think about.

Tomorrow I get premise spray.


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## seminole wind

robin416 said:


> No one can answer that question for you, we're not there to see her condition. And no none should. If you are beginning to question her chances of recovery then you're moving closer to making a determination.


I think you're right, good way of knowing....

She was the noisiest chicken I've had. Always whined all the time. No noise for a few days. But she whined a bit ago. But really doesn't look any better.


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## seminole wind

dawg53 said:


> Two months ago I was dealing with a case of what I suspected was enteritis in one of my BR hens. Short of throwing the kitchen sink at her, there wasnt any improvement and I culled her on the 14th day. I just cant see pumping a bird full of different antibiotics and other chemicals over an extended period of time possibly causing more harm than good. I shouldve culled my hen sooner. I guess I'm getting soft in my old age.
> Seminole...only you can make the call.


Well it's nice to know you're softer. I am surprised that you stuck it out for 14 days. I don't think you should have culled her sooner because from what I've noticed from 20 years in the NICU, when there's a patient that has no chance in hell, and the parents want everything done, they are not ready to let go. I don't think it's hope that they get better really. It's more of a denial buying them time to come to terms with it.

With me,, it's accepting that nothing is working.

Kathy, she's been on Baytril for tomorrow is the 3rd day. I think you said if I don't see an improvement, Baytril is not the one.


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## seminole wind

She does look better this morning. Getting more whiney. Eats a bit. Maybe she likes that Baytril/sulfadimethoxine mix. I have injectable Tylan now. For backup. 

Tonight I will be spraying the chicken area for mosquitos.


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## dawg53

Seminole, in the instance with the hen I culled, I knew I wasnt dealing with a transmittable respiratory disease. Otherwise I wouldve culled her immediately. Even so, I quarantined her away from the rest of the flock to prevent possible fecal/oral transmission to my other birds.
Humans are a different story.


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## seminole wind

I agree with you there. I separate, I have a large hutch on my patio (lanai) with wire and a tray so I can clean up easy. If it looks intestinal to me, when they're under a year old I leave them and treat all. Otherwise, if they are up here with me they are right outside my patio door and I can monitor it well. The hutch gets a good spray down with Virkon between customers. 

Looks like the swelling in her face has gone down some. She can open her right eye again. She whines a lot, which is normal. I'm going to take her out later and Virkon that hutch. My husband is very attached to this one.


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## dawg53

Our enclosed patio serves as a quarantine area. I have one hospital cage ready for a chicken emergency. I have plenty of other cages in the shed.
Any fowl odor around her face/head?


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## seminole wind

I haven't noticed. The swelling has gone down, but I don't know if she's going to get better. She does pick at food. Not much.


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## dawg53

No foul odor is good news.


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## MichaelA69

Have you tried a .5 cc B complex shot in the breast muscle? Anemic chickens can get droopy faced and pale.


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## seminole wind

She's been getting Ensure or Boost, they have goodly amounts of people vitamins. The swelling has gone down, but she's not eating. I wonder if Tylan would be better?


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## MichaelA69

seminolewind said:


> She's been getting Ensure or Boost, they have goodly amounts of people vitamins. The swelling has gone down, but she's not eating. I wonder if Tylan would be better?


A B-12 shot will get in the bloodstream faster if there are intestinal issues. I would give a B-12 shot like I mentioned. Give .5 cc in breast to enhance appetite for a 3-6 lb hen, and give probiotic dispersible powder in waterers. You could also tempt her to eat with moistened feed or buttermilk soaked bread.


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## robin416

I knew a vet that gave the B injections to her birds if one wouldn't eat.


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## seminole wind

Where do I get vitamin b injectable?


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## MichaelA69

Most feed stores should carry a B12 injectable, Sem:
http://www.durvet.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=141:vitamin-b-complex&Itemid=63
I use a 22-25 gauge needle.


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## seminole wind

Alaska, now she smells sort of yeasty. But it's her stool I think.


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Alaska, now she smells sort of yeasty. But it's her stool I think.


They can get yeast infections in their intestines.


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## seminole wind

It looks like she pooped kindof a white mucousy poop with white looking clumps. Maybe I should give her Nystatin?

She is not looking worse.


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## MichaelA69

seminolewind said:


> It looks like she pooped kindof a white mucousy poop with white looking clumps. Maybe I should give her Nystatin?
> 
> She is not looking worse.


Sometimes that's due to lack of eating when all you see are urates. Yeast infections generally produce a recognizable odor. Has the hen laid any eggs? Have you seen eggs without shells or soft shell eggs?


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## seminole wind

She's not laying. I guess the odor is kindof a yeast smell. Alaska brought that odor up a few weeks ago and maybe that's it. But she has no nasal, eye, or oral discharge. 

I'm tubing her, but probably not enough.


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## MichaelA69

seminolewind said:


> She's not laying. I guess the odor is kindof a yeast smell. Alaska brought that odor up a few weeks ago and maybe that's it. But she has no nasal, eye, or oral discharge.
> 
> I'm tubing her, but probably not enough.


I do know that people who use bleach as a preventative in water encourage crop/intestinal yeast infections. Acidifying water too often can also cause this problem ( all the ACV fanatics should know this), in addition to overuse of antibiotics. Then the bird gets an inflamed esophagus/crop and they lose the desire to eat. The only Nystatin I know of is Medistatin/Candi-statin: http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/cage-bird-items/meds-supplements/664-medistatin-powder

Probiotics are a good preventative for this problem also. I use this: http://www.probios.com/product-listing/?qa=14


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## seminole wind

I have enough Nystatin to last me ....a long time. I started giving it to her.


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## Alaskan

So, ACV in the water every single day will increase the risk of vent gleet?


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## MichaelA69

Alaskan said:


> So, ACV in the water every single day will increase the risk of vent gleet?


Daily use of ACV is not good. It acidifies water and is not a probiotic. Where it may contain a saccharide like pectin, which is food for beneficial bacteria, overuse will actually prevent nutrient absorption in the intestinal tract and change the PH and reduce mucosa produced to protect intestinal walls. Supplementing with probiotics every so often will do much more to prevent intestinal problems than water acidifiers, such as acetic acid found in apple cider vinegar.

Lots of claims are parroted with the supplementation of ACV with little scientific evidence to substantiate them. Acidifying water on a regular basis isn't good for any animal, including humans. I'm often surprised what people believe just because the subject matter may be categorized as "green, sustainable, or natural" . Citric acid has long been used by poultry farmers to "acidify" or prevent bacterial growth in watering systems for poultry, but even this is not done daily or weekly. Tests have been conducted with acetic acid/ACV in poultry trials but have not resumed due to proof of little benefit in real world conditions of keeping poultry.

Poultry Science Association is a good reference:
http://www.poultryscience.org/index.asp?autotry=true&ULnotkn=true
Some excerpts of studies are listed here regarding ACV.
http://blog.chickenwaterer.com/2012/12/dont-use-apple-cider-vinegar-acv-in.html

I prefer to keep waterers clean by scrubbing and sanitizing with Oxine AH every so often. And when I supplement water with vitamins/minerals/probiotics, I follow manufacturer label instructions in regard to poultry.


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## seminole wind

I never gave ACV much thought, and I guess it's a good thing, LOL. I agree that continuous ACV like in the water is not a good thing. Afterall, isn't the dose for humans like a tsp or tbls a day? 

I have also read that probiotics should be used only after antibiotics are finished, because the antibiotics will just wipe out the probiotics as well. I also question what's in the probiotic. Isn't a few of the ingredients the bacteria that may have made the chicken sick? If I just treated for enteritis, would I want to introduce anything that can grow well in the damage from enteritis? (bacteria or cocci eating away at the small intestine wall). Vitamins may be the way to go .


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## Alaskan

That was excellent info, thanks!


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## MichaelA69

seminolewind said:


> I never gave ACV much thought, and I guess it's a good thing, LOL. I agree that continuous ACV like in the water is not a good thing. Afterall, isn't the dose for humans like a tsp or tbls a day?
> 
> I have also read that probiotics should be used only after antibiotics are finished, because the antibiotics will just wipe out the probiotics as well. I also question what's in the probiotic. Isn't a few of the ingredients the bacteria that may have made the chicken sick? If I just treated for enteritis, would I want to introduce anything that can grow well in the damage from enteritis? (bacteria or cocci eating away at the small intestine wall). Vitamins may be the way to go .


Good bacteria in the intestinal tract competes with bad bacteria that is always present. It is when the bad bacteria becomes numerous, that the chicken becomes ill. Birds eating rodent droppings, wild bird droppings, their own droppings, or pecking on a dead carcass can cause that problem. I think you are correct about using antibiotics. While antibiotics like Lincomycin would act on E.Coli, it would also do the same against good bacteria in the gut. That is why it is often recommended to use probiotics and vitamins after a regiment of antibiotics.

Of course with protozoa like Coccidia, you wouldn't want to supplement vitamins during treatment since B1 is in most poultry vitamin supplements in addition to formulated feed. You likely know Coccidia thrive off of Vitamin B1, and Amprolium inhibits B1 absorption.

Young birds benefit from probiotic supplementation once a week. Adults would too during hot weather when they tend to have watery droppings. I supplement no more than twice a week with Probios dispersible powder in drinkers.


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## seminole wind

Well once a week sounds better. I wonder if probiotics would be a good idea in immunosuppressed chickens? Would it cause them harm?


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## MichaelA69

seminolewind said:


> Well once a week sounds better. I wonder if probiotics would be a good idea in immunosuppressed chickens? Would it cause them harm?


Since the immunity begins in the intestinal tract, and good bacteria removes bad bacteria, I don't see how it could possibly be harmful. The ten year old hens I still have get it once or twice a week and they are doing very well. They are eating less during their current moult like all birds do, but they are older and may bear more stress than young birds. So I am sure to supplement poultry vitamins 3x a week, and one of those days I add .5 to 1 tsp Probios per gallon. I may add a little wheat germ oil in feed once every couple weeks while they moult. I don't feed high protein to them either; 16-17% organic crumbles/pellets, a little kale, pea sprouts for extra choline to clean their livers a few times a week. Nothing green here this time of year except what was grown in our garden.


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## seminole wind

Thanks. Do you put this stuff in their water?


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## seminole wind

Well, she's been on Tylan injectable qday and Nystatin, and looks almost normal today except for eating. She did take a few bites of mush, and some water, I gave her oatmeal this morning. I have been leaving the top of the hutch open, but this morning she tried to fly out and landed on the wall of the hutch. It's normal for her to try to get away from me. I'll tube her a day or two more, then I think it's time to be on her own.

Kathy, what do you think? And is Nystatin or that general/all cure flagyl stuff better? I know that Nystatin is really not absorbed.


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## casportpony

What are you trying treat for?


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## seminole wind

I started treating for a swollen face, that's okay, she had some white poo and a yeasty smell I started giving her nystatin. If she'll eat, she can go back to her friends.


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> I started treating for a swollen face, that's okay, she had some white poo and a yeasty smell I started giving her nystatin. If she'll eat, she can go back to her friends.


Nystatin is what you would use for yeast, but if it doesn't work, you would want to try ketoconazole or fluconazole.


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## seminole wind

I think the odor is gone. However, if needed, do you have the dosage on that general cure flagyl?

She looks good, acts normal. But is not eating. I make her all kinds of good mushy food. Today its bread pieces in egg with a hint of sugar. 

I have another Polish now who is kind of listless. I made her up some antibiotic water and she was guzzling water yesterday. So who knows. 

It's gotten me to the point where I am resigned to just treating and compartmentalizing my emotions about the whole thing. No one has pox outside or in their mouth.


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## seminole wind

I think it's time for this one to go back to her pen. If she doesn't eat, well, I've been feeding her for 10 (?) days. She's gotten 2 courses of different antibiotics and Nystatin. If she doesn't eat, I don't think there's anything left that I can do.


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## Alaskan

Sounds like the best choice... But sure is a bit disappointing.


I wish things would all work the way I want to orchestrate them.... 

As in, you worked so hard on that chicken, she should pep up and look awesome simply out of gratitude.


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## seminole wind

LOL thanks Al, yea you'd think she'd be grateful. There isn't really anything left to do. That I can think of.


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> I think the odor is gone. However, if needed, do you have the dosage on that general cure flagyl?
> 
> She looks good, acts normal. But is not eating. I make her all kinds of good mushy food. Today its bread pieces in egg with a hint of sugar.
> 
> I have another Polish now who is kind of listless. I made her up some antibiotic water and she was guzzling water yesterday. So who knows.
> 
> It's gotten me to the point where I am resigned to just treating and compartmentalizing my emotions about the whole thing. No one has pox outside or in their mouth.


Before I comment on the dose for API General Cure (250mg metronidazole & 75mg praziquantel), I need to know what you would be trying to treat.


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## seminole wind

I will postpone that. She ate CORNBREAD this morning and took a drink. I'm putting her back out in the pen, no more meds. 

She's been treated for everything but Dengue fever, LOL.


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## casportpony

I mentioned the API General Cure as a way to get metronidazole quickly, but it's not something one should give twice a day or for more than five days because it has praziquantel in it and I'm not sure how many days in a row praziquantel can be given. That said, if anyone thinks they might ever need to use metronidazole for more than five days, or twice a day, they should invest in some Fish-Zole, Aquazole, lMeditrich or Flagyl. Make sense?

The metronidazole doses I use are:


Blackhead -25mg per pound for five days.

Necrotic Enteritis - 25mg per pound twice a day for 2-4 weeks


Canker - Still working on that darn pigeon, but I'm gonna say that some bird will require more than 5 days of treatment.


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## casportpony

Glad she's eating some on her own!


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## seminole wind

She's been out there all day. She has periods of paleness, but then goes red again. I hope watching the other 2 will help.


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## seminole wind

casportpony said:


> I mentioned the API General Cure as a way to get metronidazole quickly, but it's not something one should give twice a day or for more than five days because it has praziquantel in it and I'm not sure how many days in a row praziquantel can be given. That said, if anyone thinks they might ever need to use metronidazole for more than five days, or twice a day, they should invest in some Fish-Zole, Aquazole, lMeditrich or Flagyl. Make sense?
> 
> The metronidazole doses I use are:
> 
> 
> Blackhead -25mg per pound for five days.
> 
> Necrotic Enteritis - 25mg per pound twice a day for 2-4 weeks
> 
> 
> Canker - Still working on that darn pigeon, but I'm gonna say that some bird will require more than 5 days of treatment.


Have you ever heard of ? Ronidazole? Never mind I think that's for canker.


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## casportpony

seminolewind said:


> Have you ever heard of ? Ronidazole? Never mind I think that's for canker.


Lots of pigeon places sell it.


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## casportpony

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/trichomonas.html#trich-treatment



> Metronidazole:
> Metronidazole tends to be dosed at around 10-30 mg/kg twice daily, however, I have seen doses ofup to 40mg/kg used in raptors and as high as 50mg/kg mentioned in some textbooks.
> It is generally given twice daily for about 5 days (up to 10 days).





> Ronidazole:
> Ronidazole tends to be dosed at around 6-10 mg/kg once daily.
> It is generally given for about 6 days (up to 10 days).





> Carnidazole (commonly used in pigeons and raptors):
> Carnidazole tends to be dosed at around 20-30 mg/kg. Most texts say to use the drug only once (a one-off dose). I have not personally used this product before. I tend to use Metronidazole or Ronidazole.
> It is reported to be a fairly safe drug toxicity-wise.





> Dimetridazole:
> This drug is commonly associated with side effects and toxicity and needs to be carefully dosed. It is no longer used very much.


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## seminole wind

Thanks.

She's back in her pen with the bright green poo, but I saw her eat some of the mush. I hope her appetite improves.


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## Alaskan

Bright green poo sounds bad. -hide-


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## seminole wind

I know it does. She wolfed down some bread this morning. That's a good sign. I need to weigh her.


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