# 9 week old chicks dying



## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

Hi All - We’ve had chickens for 5 years or so now and this year decided to get some new chicks, mostly to get my 2 and 4 year kiddos involved.

The facts:

2 buffs, 2 reds
they have been kept nice and cozy in my workshop in a D container with pine shavings, heat lamp in one corner, always clean water available.
They’ve been fed solely on starter/grower from day one.

The symptoms:

One of the buffs died unexpectedly last week (my 4 year old found her and was heartbroken)
The second buff is now on death’s doorstep - symptoms first noticed ~12 hours ago. Will try to post a video.
I have noticed signs of poor equilibrium in some of them over the past couple weeks. Until now I wrote this off as stage of adolescent clumsiness, but now watching the second buff’s progression in real time there is clearly something amiss.
All 4 chicks eat and drink normally, and are growing at a normal rate.
No abnormal poop that I’ve noticed.
The darker of the 2 reds is now showing pretty severe clumsiness on and off. Still eating and drinking normally.


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

They are missing vitamins. Get them on chicken vitamins ASAP. Are they on medicated feed? If so, so take them off and dose with Thiamine (B1). 

Is the food fresh? Any chance it became damp?


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

Optimistically I’m hoping this might be wry neck, and have started them on some Vitamin E and selenium supplements. But I’ve never witnessed wry neck first hand so don’t really know if these symptoms align.

Also, the probably-doomed buff was still eating and drinking this morning if I wrapped her up and held her head straight. Though she’s getting notably weaker as the day wears on.


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

robin416 said:


> They are missing vitamins. Get them on chicken vitamins ASAP. Are they on medicated feed? If so, so take them off and dose with Thiamine (B1).
> 
> Is the food fresh? Any chance it became damp?


I’ve started them on supplemental vitamins today. They weren’t on medicated feed but I just switched them to it - kind of an everything but the kitchen sink approach.
Food and water always kept clean. 
I will look up B1 to see how I can get that into them. 
Also, does it add up that they would be vitamin deficient on a diet of starter/grower?


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Take them off the medicated feed. They can't be on that and B1 at the same time. 

Yes, if something is wrong with the feed. There also some birds that need supplemental support until they grow more.


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

robin416 said:


> Take them off the medicated feed. They can't be on that and B1 at the same time.
> 
> Yes, if something is wrong with the feed. There also some birds that need supplemental support until they grow more.


This is what I picked up today. Mixed in their water at the labeled rate. B1 is not listed. Should I keep them on the medicated feed until I’m able to get something with B1?


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

This is the feed they’ve been on.










This is what I switched them to today:








Neither lists B1


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

You can find the B1 anywhere vitamins are sold. There's nothing wrong with the nutri drench but as you noticed, it has no B vitamins.


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

robin416 said:


> You can find the B1 anywhere vitamins are sold. There's nothing wrong with the nutri drench but as you noticed, it has no B vitamins.


Thanks so much for your help here. Going to pick up some B1 now. Any ideas about how to administer an emergency dose to the buff? Or is she a lost cause?


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

Well I dumped a dose of B1 down the buff’s gullet. Probably too little too late but we’ll see.
For the other two I replaced the medicated feed with the original and mixed in the B1 (powder from capsule).


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Time. It's going to take time to know if she'll recover. Since it was both buffs it might be their genetics. 

I still have concerns about your feed though. Something has to be lacking for them to be doing this. 

Is the feed old? What was the bag date? It should be on the bottom seal of the bag.


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

robin416 said:


> Time. It's going to take time to know if she'll recover. Since it was both buffs it might be their genetics.
> 
> I still have concerns about your feed though. Something has to be lacking for them to be doing this.
> 
> Is the feed old? What was the bag date? It should be on the bottom seal of the bag.


I could not find a date on the bag. Perhaps was on the part I cut off when opening. I can only say I purchased it the same time we bought the chicks.
Also, on closer review the feed does list thiamin mononitrate on the minor ingredients list. I’d hoped we hit the nail on the head with the B1 deficiency, as the symptoms do seem to align, but now that seems less likely.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Don't count on what you're reading on the bag. They put the minimum required amount of vitamins and minerals in the feed. Those begin to diminish in efficacy the moment it's bagged. 

B1 is safe to give even when there is another source being given. As you said, symptoms appear to match the need for the B1.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

I'm wondering if it's too hot for the chicks in the D container. Got a thermometer in it?


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

I’ll grab a new bag of feed tomorrow. Can’t hurt.

This little buff looks miserable. Lying in a very unnatural, contorted position. She has stopped drinking entirely even with help. Doubt she will make it through the night.


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

dawg53 said:


> I'm wondering if it's too hot for the chicks in the D container. Got a thermometer in it?


Yes, there is a thermometer. I put the heat lamp in the corner so the opposite side of the box (about 4’ away) is dark. They usually sleep somewhere in between.


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

Lthompson954 said:


> Yes, there is a thermometer. I put the heat lamp in the corner so the opposite side of the box (about 4’ away) is dark. They usually sleep somewhere in between.


I had to go double check. The “cool” side was at 80 degrees, so I removed the heat lamp. My workshop has been in the high 70s so I probably should have done that weeks ago.


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

robin416 said:


> Take them off the medicated feed. They can't be on that and B1 at the same time.
> 
> Yes, if something is wrong with the feed. There also some birds that need supplemental support until they grow more.


Robin, I am just curious why it is not recommended to be on medicated feed while supplementing B1? Don’t they still need B1 regardless?


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Lthompson954 said:


> Robin, I am just curious why it is not recommended to be on medicated feed while supplementing B1? Don’t they still need B1 regardless?


 Personally, I prefer to start chicks on medicated feed. However, there have been a couple of times I've had to switch to non medicated feed; such as abnormal behavior that couldve possibly ended up causing death due to the lack of Thiamine in medicated feed. Vitamin B1 is Thiamine.
Medicated feed contains a low dose of Amprolium to help prevent coccidiosis. 
Here's a very good link for you to read:








Thiamine (Vitamin B1) Deficiency In Chickens


Chickens can experience complications from a variety of vitamin deficiencies and their symptoms are often mistaken for other health issues. Lots of you are aware that wry neck can be a result of a …




bitchinchickens.com


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

The amprolium in the feed blocks the absorption of Thiamine.


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

Thanks again to both of you. That article hit the nail on the head.

I replaced their feed today with a new and non-medicated type. Purina brand 🤷‍♂️

Also mixed some B complex into their water to hopefully give them a catch-up dose. Presumably if there’s nothing wrong with the new feed this will be all they need in terms of nutrients? These feeds are merketed as meeting their “total nutritional requirements” and I’ve always taken that at face value. They should come with a bold disclaimer for newbies like me.

Anyway, I suppose I’ll just keep supplementing E and B1 at the recommended rates until I see some improvement.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

The E can become a problem so don't continue it for too long.

They do meet requirements. What they fail to mention is that it loses those minimum requirements as time goes by. It's why all of us should check feed bags. I've seen six month old feed at TSC for sale. I asked about it. They were told the feed was fine by the manufacturer. It's not. 

This is what poultry forums are for. To get information that is hard to get from anyone trying to sell a product.


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## dawg53 (Aug 25, 2015)

Not only checking dates on feed sacks as Robin mentioned; when you first open the sack, look for clumps of feed no matter how big or small they are. That means that the feed was once damp or wet and it dried out. Also look for mold on the inside of the sack itself and especially where you open the sack. Also look for grain mites. Grain mites turn crumbles into powder. They are eating the vitamins and minerals needed for your birds. In all these instances, return the sack to the store and get a refund or exchange the sack.
Store workers arnt very good about rotating products on shelves or bins neither.


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## TheChickenGuy (Jan 29, 2014)

This looks like newcastle disease to me. On a second thought after reading Thiamine (Vitamin B1) Deficiency In Chickens, might also be due to vitamin defficienct.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

It's time for @Lthompson954 to check back in with us to see where things stand now.


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

Hi All, sorry for the delay in posting an update. We’ve been away on vacation. First, I can confirm that their original feed did have clumps. Not the entire bag or anything, but there were definitely a few good size chunks. I did not see any obvious signs of mold or mites. If the feed was damp at one time, it was dry by the time I purchased it.

Second, the little buff did not make it unfortunately. She was lingering with my help getting her to eat and drink, but was only getting worse. Pretty much laid in that contorted position 24/7 when I wasn’t holding her. I can’t be sure if she would’ve pulled through or not had I been able to keep it up, but again, vacation. It went on like that for about a week with no improvement, so really I hope I only shortened her suffering..

Now on the brighter side, the clumsy red seems to have improved a little I think. At least she certainly has not worsened. I’ll have more time to watch her tomorrow so hopefully will get a better feel for her progress. The other red is as virulent as ever and is ready to get the heck out of the brooder.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

Feed should probably be the first thing we question when strange things begin to happen. We depend on the manufacturer and the feed stores to do all the right things to make certain it's safe. I've had it happen to me years ago. I lost three very expensive hens to feed that had gotten damp but was dry when I got it. It was only after having been feeding it for a while that I spotted trouble.


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## Lthompson954 (7 mo ago)

It is certainly a tough lesson to learn. Fortunately for me there was no significant financial investment at stake.

For me at least, I think a lifetime of buying cat and dog food without thinking twice about it had given me a false sense of security. All the signs I overlooked seem obvious now, but an issue with the feed was the furthest thing from my mind.

Glad I came here and put the question to you fine folk instead of continuing the guessing game googling symptoms. I’m certain I would have missed it.


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## robin416 (Sep 8, 2013)

I'm not sure you would find feed being the cause on google unless you worded the search in a specific way.


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## TheChickenGuy (Jan 29, 2014)

Lthompson954 said:


> Hi All, sorry for the delay in posting an update. We’ve been away on vacation. First, I can confirm that their original feed did have clumps. Not the entire bag or anything, but there were definitely a few good size chunks. I did not see any obvious signs of mold or mites. If the feed was damp at one time, it was dry by the time I purchased it.
> 
> Second, the little buff did not make it unfortunately. She was lingering with my help getting her to eat and drink, but was only getting worse. Pretty much laid in that contorted position 24/7 when I wasn’t holding her. I can’t be sure if she would’ve pulled through or not had I been able to keep it up, but again, vacation. It went on like that for about a week with no improvement, so really I hope I only shortened her suffering..
> 
> Now on the brighter side, the clumsy red seems to have improved a little I think. At least she certainly has not worsened. I’ll have more time to watch her tomorrow so hopefully will get a better feel for her progress. The other red is as virulent as ever and is ready to get the heck out of the brooder.


Keep it up. At least you have learnt something from it.


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